Friday, 11th November 2016

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 7:06 am

Morfternoon.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 7:22 am

Morning PF.

What a sad one.
Farewell Leonard Cohen.

In the same week as we gained President Trump we've lost Cohen who understood what being a man really meant.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 7:27 am

Hello

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 7:28 am

Never has the world needed fearless
independent media more

says the Guardian.

Well quite, and had it provided any at all since 2008 then Gordon Brown might not have been hounded out of office and the world would be a completely different place.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 7:33 am

Just heard a man on the radio saying he voted for Trump because he was ahead in the polls in his state and he didn't want to vote for someone who would lose.

That's why, in the end, we can argue here on FTN until the cows come home and it doesn't mean a thing. It doesn't matter what the 'truth' is about anything. Logic doesn't come into it.
No amount of providing links that show that your man/woman said this or that, or spreadsheets or graphs showing stats about the economy will affect voters like that.

An understanding of psychology is what the left needs if it is to survive in the new political scene.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 7:43 am

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... n-60-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
14th november
supermoon
(i saw you standing...)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 8:01 am

Boris Johnson has appealed to European leaders to stop their “collective whinge-o-rama” after the election of Donald Trump as the next American President.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... nald-trum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 8:06 am

Well he would.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 8:06 am

What magnificent statesmen those playing fields of Eton have spawned.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 8:07 am

Who was the Labour PM who failed to close our public schools because he'd been to one of them and didn't quite have the stones?

(can't remember and would like to read up)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 8:44 am

Morning all.

Sad to hear of the passing of Leonard Cohen - never a fan as I was of say Dylan or Joni but recognise his greatness. 2016 eh?

The row over that tweet about grammars by the DfE with nonsense stats.

1. People say it's rubbish. Portes complains to DfE chief statto
2. Tweet gets deleted
3. Dfe statto says he's not commenting about a deleted tweet
4. tweet goes back up.
5. Portes complains to UK stats authority
6. Tweet gets deleted again
7. DfE statto say he's not commenting about a deleted tweet and says he'll follow due process

Not a good look by the DfE - all the goodwill that Gove had built up amongst many people has completely gone now. No-one trusts them.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 8:59 am

Eltham North (Greenwich) result:
CON: 42.2% (+10.6)
LAB: 40.4% (+9.3)
LDEM: 8.8% (+5.5)
UKIP: 5.1% (-14.5)
GRN: 3.5% (-6.0)

A large number of stories in that result (a Tory gain from Labour).

1. Labour is doing (much) better in London than elsewhere.

2. The Ukip collapse is benefiting the Tories, who could be returning to their 80s heyday in terms of vote share.

3. the LD revival is small, but there

Labour is lucky. At its time of weakness, the Tories are poorly led and the LDs are even weaker. With a popular/populist leader of another party, I think we could see Labour's vote collapse outside London, as it has in Scotland (from a higher base).

I know the PLP are not very popular with many, but they are at least loyal to the cause. I'd quit now if I were an MP in a marginal with a job to go to.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:00 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Who was the Labour PM who failed to close our public schools because he'd been to one of them and didn't quite have the stones?

(can't remember and would like to read up)

Sorry - don't know. The only name to spring to mind is Anthony Crosland - but he wasn't ever PM.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:05 am

Andrew Neil talked about it in Posh and Posher but I seem unable to trace.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:08 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12282505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then along came Labour's Harold Wilson in 1964, a Yorkshire grammar [all: don't look] schoolboy and it looked as if things would never be the same again. For the next 33 years, every prime minister - Labour or Tory - was educated at a state school.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:11 am

Maybe indeed it wasn't a PM

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:15 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Who was the Labour PM who failed to close our public schools because he'd been to one of them and didn't quite have the stones?

(can't remember and would like to read up)

Attlee is the only person that comes close to describing.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:23 am

Labour's target culture eh...oh...

Drop the 3m apprenticeship target to avoid ‘wasting £500 million’ says influential think tank

http://feweek.co.uk/2016/11/11/drop-the ... -exchange/

The government should “move away” from its target for three million apprenticeships, to avoid wasting £500 million a year on substandard training, according to experts from the Policy Exchange.

A new report from the right-wing think-tank claims that a significant proportion of the apprenticeship standards are inadequate, and raises concerns about the government’s focus on quantity over quality.jonathan-simons

Its authors, Tom Richmond, a sixth form college teacher, and Jonathan Simons (pictured right), the organisation’s head of education, called on the government to “move away from the three million target for apprenticeship starts being the sole metric of success of the apprenticeships programme”.

Instead, they said, the government should set “a new system goal which focusses on quality”.

This was always a terrible idea - as is the Free School target. Except that TY wants it increased to 750 now.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:24 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Maybe indeed it wasn't a PM

Could be. I know that Anthony Crosland was vehemently anti- grammar schools - so I'm sort of making what, to me, seems like a logical assumption that he was just as anti- private schools.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:29 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Who was the Labour PM who failed to close our public schools because he'd been to one of them and didn't quite have the stones?

(can't remember and would like to read up)

Is this perhaps what you're referring to?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/att ... -1-6923600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Attlee fell short of abolishing private schools

Why has it come up btw?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:30 am

Yes. Perhaps it was Atlee.
He was educated at Northaw School, a boys' preparatory school near Pluckley in Kent, Haileybury College, and University College, Oxford.

Ah:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/att ... -1-6923600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However, by his own admission, Attlee failed to appreciate that the decision to leave the private and public schools in place in the education system (they were to be abolished under the Education Act 1944) which he saw implemented in the first few months of his premiership, after the general election of 1945, meant that the intention to create a level playing field for all children and young adults, so far as learning was concerned, could not be achieved.

Post by **adam** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:30 am

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died
Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long-stem rose
Everybody knows...

Post by **adam** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:36 am

How to bend the curriculum - we are doing work on planning and writing documentaries, so I thought today we should watch Bob Roberts.

[youtube]yRpWaJRyVQo[/youtube]

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:38 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 10876.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A journalist broke down in tears as he spoke of his fears over the type of country the United States may become under a Donald Trump presidency.

Jonathan Capehart, an opinion writer for The Washington Post, was asked by Channel 4’s Jon Snow if as a gay, black man the current America is “his America” and whether he is worried the country may change under a Trump administration.

Capehart told Snow the question moved him “almost into silence” before his voice started quivering with emotion as he struggled to find his words.

Brexit and the US Presidency. One giant step each for Farage and Trump, two humongous leaps backwards for mankind.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:45 am

I'm worried that Theresa May will sell our soul (what's left of it) to get this fabled trade deal with the USA.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:48 am

PorFavor wrote:I'm worried that Theresa May will sell our soul (what's left of it) to get this fabled trade deal with the USA.

Going by this she might well have to...

Ian Katz ‏@iankatz1000 11h11 hours ago

Quick reminder of countries Trump called before he phoned No 10: Egypt, Ireland, Mexico, Israel, Turkey, India, Japan, Australia #newsnight

And Farage has written in the DT about us needing to be nice to Donald...if farage gets anywhere near to being influential anywhere that might just finish me off for this year.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:53 am

Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Who was the Labour PM who failed to close our public schools because he'd been to one of them and didn't quite have the stones?

(can't remember and would like to read up)
Is this perhaps what you're referring to?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/att ... -1-6923600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Attlee fell short of abolishing private schools
Why has it come up btw?

I think it came up because Tiny Clanger was commenting on the brilliant education Mr Johnson must have had to have spawned the phrase "collective whinge-o-rama" and to have used it so effectively.

Post by **adam** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 9:56 am

Temulkar posted what I agree was a great extract from Paul Mason's article, which was (at least roughly) this

Those who tell you the left has to somehow “reconnect” with people whose minds are full of white supremacy and misogyny must finish the sentence. By what means? By throwing our black brothers and sisters under a bus? Eighty years ago the poets and miners of the International Brigades did not march into battle saying: “Mind you, the fascists have got a point.”

When we look at this idea of the left behind, the white working class rejecting the left and liberal left (and the less liberal less left, but I digress) I think there's an interesting analogy in the history of, particularly, the American south, in the long century from Reconstruction to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. If you were part of the white working class you had absolutely legitimate concerns about your place in the world - everything was going to change for you, for the worst, and you couldn't help but worry about it. So you acted on your legitimate concerns - you voted for candidates who would suppress civil rights by any means necessary. Perhaps you turned a blind eye to intimidation and violence around you. Perhaps you got involved. But it's difficult to argue that from your perspective you had a point - you were defending yourself and your own, your well being, your life chances.

This new version of empathy politics that is supposed to justify the shit that we say has no moral core beyond individualism - that's the real message of the 'post-truth' idea, that if it's true for you then it's true. There is no possibility of political, historical, economic or social context. It's the individualism that means now the great sin is to accuse people of being unreasonable (in any number of prejudices - of racism or misogyny for example). It's the belief that means we are now supposed to be saying 'mind you,the fascists have got a point'.

Post by **adam** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:00 am

More surprises

Amber Rudd did not review police files before Orgreave inquiry refusal

The home secretary, Amber Rudd, did not look at evidence held by South Yorkshire police on its operation at Orgreave during the 1984 miners strike and the subsequent collapsed prosecutions against 95 men before she turned down an inquiry into the events, the Guardian has learned.

The Home Office has refused to say what documents Rudd and its officials considered, but South Yorkshire police said they had not sent the materials they held to the home secretary.

Campaigners said they felt let down and that Rudd had made a superficial decision “without bothering to look at the evidence”.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:08 am

Re ^^^

Yes, shocked I was when I read that about Riudd, shocked I tell you.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:12 am

PorFavor wrote:I'm worried that Theresa May will sell our soul (what's left of it) to get this fabled trade deal with the USA.

Yes. It's somewhat sealed our fate.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:31 am

Dear oh dear...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:33 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Dear oh dear...

I'll say it again - thank you.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:36 am

From May 2016.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nick Timothy
‏@NickJTimothy

Urgh, @jameskirkup, as a Tory I don't want any "reaching out" to Trump.

So where's Nick Timothy theses day - I forget...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:42 am

Morning all.

Via the recommended Cracked podcast (thanks again), there was a reference to an alternative method of predicting the winner of presidential elections.

'Retrospectively, the keys model accounts for the outcome of every American presidential election since 1860, much longer than any other prediction system. Prospectively, the Keys to the White House has correctly forecast the popular vote winner of all seven presidential elections from 1984 to 2012, usually months or even years prior to Election Day'

https://pollyvote.com/en/components/ind ... ite-house/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:59 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Eltham North (Greenwich) result:
CON: 42.2% (+10.6)
LAB: 40.4% (+9.3)
LDEM: 8.8% (+5.5)
UKIP: 5.1% (-14.5)
GRN: 3.5% (-6.0)

A large number of stories in that result (a Tory gain from Labour).

1. Labour is doing (much) better in London than elsewhere.

2. The Ukip collapse is benefiting the Tories, who could be returning to their 80s heyday in terms of vote share.

3. the LD revival is small, but there

That ward elected three Tories in 2002, 2006 and 2010 - in all cases by comfortable margins. It is somewhere Labour profited from the UKIP surge.

There was a significant swing to Labour in a Wandsworth contest yesterday - in another ward that had split between the Tories and Labour two years ago.

The difference between the two places becomes evident if you look at this year's Mayoral results - Khan winning Queenstown, Goldsmith Eltham North (and neither were that close)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:04 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Via the recommended Cracked podcast (thanks again), there was a reference to an alternative method of predicting the winner of presidential elections.

'Retrospectively, the keys model accounts for the outcome of every American presidential election since 1860, much longer than any other prediction system. Prospectively, the Keys to the White House has correctly forecast the popular vote winner of all seven presidential elections from 1984 to 2012, usually months or even years prior to Election Day'

https://pollyvote.com/en/components/ind ... ite-house/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doomed to be a tantalisingly close fail for the Democrats, then. No doubt the "right" Democrat candidate would have bucked the trend, according to some, but I still think this shows that the result was far more about the general circumstances than anything personal about Hillary.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:17 am

Well given that it was a close election, the argument another Dem candidate might have got them over the line isn't a totally absurd one.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:35 am

So (LibDem scumlike activity aside) if the less-far right were able to work out where they had consensus (rather than luxuriating self-righteously on where they disagreed) then we might be able to overthrow even a Tory/UKIP alliance.

(starts muttering darkly about nick clegg and gordon brown and the rose garden and other things)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:38 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 11051.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Voter sues Donald Trump for $1 billion due to 'severe emotional distress' caused by presidential campaign
Louis Tafuto says Donald Trump is 'wholly untruthful and therefore unqualified and incapable of taking an oath of office'

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:44 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well given that it was a close election, the argument another Dem candidate might have got them over the line isn't a totally absurd one.

I don't particularly disagree, I just think the level of personal animosity towards Hillary Clinton is out of proportion. It was a difficult one for any Democrat to win. Indeed, given the difficulty of securing a third term in general let alone a Democrat one where history is not on their side, the idea Hillary got some kind of undeserved easy ride to the White House because of some kind of entitlement looks a shaky argument. It could just as easily be argued that she was finally grudgingly given her chance because it wasn't a very good chance.

http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2013 ... s-in-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:51 am

In line with the notion that the concept of "truth" today is simply what's perceived as "true" by one individual, our habit of looking for who to blame is equally unedifying and probably counterproductive.

Some charismatic madmen have always seized power and the rest of us have always let it happen. We are all part of the problem, but equally that makes us all part of a possible solution. But we need to look at things very differently.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:11 pm

Morning. This "man" is an absolute fucking spanner, an over-privileged soulless void, yet he epitomises the world in which we now live:

Part 1 - Have your cake:

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Part 2 - And eat it:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Part 3: They walk among us, they really do:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:17 pm

I prefer his sister, tbh.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:24 pm

More good news.

UK construction weakest in four years, ONS says - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37947922" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:37 pm

Leonard Cohen, whose song ‘Hallelujah’ was recorded by hundreds of artists, dead at 82 - The Washington Post
https://apple.news/ABK03eEUaQQm1ANEUn3Jqvg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His first song to pierce the public consciousness was “Suzanne,” which became a minor hit for Judy Collins in 1966 and was later performed by Simone and others. The song, written about one of Mr. Cohen’s many girlfriends, is on one level a simple love song:

And you want to travel with her, and you want to travel blind
And you know that she will trust you
For you’ve touched her perfect body with your mind

I was under the impression that it was about one of his friend's girlfriends, not his (at least, at the time he wrote it). Hence he could only touch her with his mind, because to do otherwise would have been to betray his friend.

Have I not remembered this right?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:43 pm

Cohen actually died on Monday, so the rather dubious "Trump finished him off" jokes can now be given a rest at least

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:48 pm

Jonny found this-

https://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/verdal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:49 pm

Today's prize for most truly idiotic opinion article goes too... can you guess?

No, David Cameron’s EU referendum wasn’t a mistake – and Brexit didn't come from a campaign of lies either - The Independent
https://apple.news/AJOFmeQgWQPqvFX3mftnrAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:56 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Today's prize for most truly idiotic opinion article goes too... can you guess?

No, David Cameron’s EU referendum wasn’t a mistake – and Brexit didn't come from a campaign of lies either - The Independent
https://apple.news/AJOFmeQgWQPqvFX3mftnrAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As it turned out, he had a choice between cutting his throat and slitting his wrist: he could lose the election in 2015 and be thrown out of office or he could lose the referendum a year later and be thrown out of office.

Presumably setting the referendum date for 2019 and enjoying a third term in office never occurred to him. Or this writer either.