Sat 12 and Sun 13 November 2016

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone.

[citizenJA]

@daydreamer
Good to read you!

[daydreamer]

Morning, Citizen.

[daydreamer]

@daydreamer
Good to read you!

Thanks.

[PorFavor]

@yahyah

Whoops (re Dominic Chappell).

[JonnyT1234]

Some people across the back from us are letting off fireworks... in daylight on Remembrance Sunday.
????? Lost plot

Just taking their lead from the BBC who think it's legitimate and justifiable to invite onto a TV programme a neo-Nazi to spout their views on Remembrance Sunday.

Reading the reaction to it on Twitter, if WWII were starting today, half the Brits posting tweets about #Marr would have been fighting on the side of Hitler. And they have the gall to call anyone left wing a traitor.

[AnatolyKasparov]

There was more support for Hitler in this country at the start of WW2 than many want to admit now - its *one* of the reasons why "appeasement" was so popular.

[JonnyT1234]

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom Pride @ThomasPride
Our grandparents didn't interview fascists on TV.
They shot them.
#marr
#RemembranceSunday

[AngryAsWell]

Christopher
‏@Chris1966
There has just been a 7.6 followed by a 6.6 earthquake north of Christchurch New Zealand. They are shallow as well which is not good news

[JonnyT1234]

There was more support for Hitler in this country at the start of WW2 than many want to admit now - its *one* of the reasons why "appeasement" was so popular.

Not least from our Royal Family and the Daily Mail, of course.

[JonnyT1234]

I assume that if any of you use Twitter that you already follow @davidschneider but if you don't, you really, really should:

David Schneider @davidschneider 3h3 hours ago " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"We the media carry blame for legitimising Trump, normalising him, giving him too big a platform. Anyway, here's Marine Le Pen" #marr

[AnatolyKasparov]

Christopher
‏@Chris1966
There has just been a 7.6 followed by a 6.6 earthquake north of Christchurch New Zealand. They are shallow as well which is not good news

Oh god, not again

[Willow904]

Milliband against a second referendum, and against freedom of movement.

Yes. I was disappointed by that.

[JonnyT1234]

I wish this forum had support for embedding tweets...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[NonOxCol]

Afternoon. I haven't seen it, but I find this so easy to believe:

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The defence from the producer has been truly shocking in its blithe ignorance and complacency, by the way:

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It is not five months since a Labour MP was assassinated in the street.

[tinyclanger2]

I wish this forum had support for embedding tweets...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes - excellent.
PfY/RfM - are we still able to use that there twitter thing and should we retweet as a very small contribution.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Burley personifies the decadence of a certain type of "soi distant" liberal. As the old saying goes, there is such a thing as being so open minded that your brains drop out.

[Womble44]

Be interesting to see the Mail's take on it, they don't usually pass up a chance to kick the BBC (and they deserve it in this instance).

[JonnyT1234]

Ukip selects candidate who made 'send the lot back' video in by-election - Mirror Online
https://apple.news/ANlXddU_uQeWnuUIP7NvTjw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Emboldened by the discovery that people will literally vote for anything, no matter how stupid it is.

[Womble44]

Although you could argue in theory that today of all days should be the easiest to demolish the far-right's arguments, but that would require a media that actually intended to do that.

[tinyclanger2]

I do get the impression that the celebritization of BBC presenters means that they have no awareness of the role they are playing in our progress towards social disaster.

Not least because it's apparently appropriate for a "serious journalist" to be very cliquey and a bit crap.

Naga Munchetty.

There, I've said it.

[tinyclanger2]

Do I want to see BBC presenter's kids on the telly? No.
Do I want to know what their golf handicap is? No.
Do I care if they are training for a triathlon? No.
Do I care whether they are capable of holding bastards to account?

Guess.

[PorFavor]

I do get the impression that the celebritization of BBC presenters means that they have no awareness of the role they are playing in our progress towards social disaster.

Not least because it's apparently appropriate for a "serious journalist" to be very cliquey and a bit crap.

Naga Munchetty.

There, I've said it.

They do all seem to spend a lot of their time in over-the-top thanks to their colleagues for just turning up for work. There's a difference between courtesy and mutual admiration.

[AnatolyKasparov]

It has been noted by a few people that Gordon Brown didn't seem to be at today's Cenotaph ceremony (whilst his three fellow living ex-PMs were) Hope he is OK.

[refitman]

I wish this forum had support for embedding tweets...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes - excellent.
PfY/RfM - are we still able to use that there twitter thing and should we retweet as a very small contribution.

We do, have retweeted.

[JonnyT1234]

Donald Trump asks to postpone fraud trial until after his inauguration - The Independent
https://apple.news/AjlS8xisgScKEiici0MRniA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The gist of the argument is that he's now 'too busy for it'.

[tinyclanger2]

Thanks RfM

[JonnyT1234]

It has been noted by a few people that Gordon Brown didn't seem to be at today's Cenotaph ceremony (whilst his three fellow living ex-PMs were) Hope he is OK.

With those 3 there, who could blame him.

[tinyclanger2]

Donald Trump asks to postpone fraud trial until after his inauguration - The Independent
https://apple.news/AjlS8xisgScKEiici0MRniA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The gist of the argument is that he's now 'too busy for it'.

Well he'll have an important hair appointment for a start off.

[citizenJA]

I wish this forum had support for embedding tweets...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes - excellent.
PfY/RfM - are we still able to use that there twitter thing and should we retweet as a very small contribution.

We do, have retweeted.

Thank you, refitman

[yahyah]

Milliband against a second referendum, and against freedom of movement.

He has a good case on the second referendum, at least.

Et tu Ed ?

[yahyah]

Thanks daydreamer. That's an interesting read.

[JonnyT1234]

Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)

[daydreamer]

Thanks daydreamer. That's an interesting read.

Thanks Yahyah, it is interesting. Worrying though.

[yahyah]

That's always a risk. Can imagine Farage and his pals would come up with a lot more 'campaign devices' or lies as we used to call them.

But you have to be optimistic.

[yahyah]

Thanks daydreamer. That's an interesting read.

Thanks Yahyah, it is interesting. Worrying though.

I know. But I'm having a day off pessimism because it is Sunday.
It was interesting to hear something from a person with an anthropology/archaeology academic background rather than a politics person.

[daydreamer]

Thanks daydreamer. That's an interesting read.

Thanks Yahyah, it is interesting. Worrying though.

I know. But I'm having a day off pessimism because it is Sunday.
It was interesting to hear something from a person with an anthropology/archaeology academic background rather than a politics person.

Amen

[JonnyT1234]

Idle observation: Homo neanderthalis as a species was around on Earth for approximately 400,000 years and look at how much we mock them. Homo sapiens could very easily not even make to 100,000.

So, I am reminded yet again of one of my favourite Biff cartoons (remember them?) in the Observer, the gist of which was, "the human mind is the most highly complex and advanced organ of all time; capable of advanced thought and calculation and the pinnacle of millions of years of evolution. Yet still capable of watching Noel's House Party."

[tinyclanger2]

Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)

Not really.
Many people anyway will naturally resist being "wrong".
I am much more worried now about our slide into rascism, bigotry and general hatred than Brexit per se - though I do worry that being outside Europe will leave us weak and vulnerable.
I don't think that the economic armageddon was predicted for after the vote but after the event. And there will be a lag period even after the vote which won't yet be showing.

Stop funding hate might well be the best option for a consumer campaign we have, currently. It would be good if we could get existing campaigning orgs to join it as part of their own remit. Not sure how it would work, but some creative thinking could make it possible.

Is Miliband's position on freedom of movement that bothers me more. If he means it OK we differ on that; if it's part of the we have to be tories cos that's what people vote for thinking it's just part of the problem.

[yahyah]

The problem is Marine Le Pen comes across as, well for lack of a better word, normal.
She dresses well, smartly groomed and comes across plausibly if you watch her without translation.


One of the Leonard Cohen tributes the other day, posting a poem he wrote, says it all.

''All there is to know about Adolf Eichmann

Eyes: .................................medium
Hair: ..................................medium
Weight: ..............................medium
Height: ...............................medium
Distinguishing features: ........none
Number of fingers: ...............ten
Number of toes: ...................ten
Intelligence: .........................medium


What did you expect ?

Talons ?
Oversize incisors ?
Green saliva ?
Madness ? ''

[JonnyT1234]

Predicted for after the vote? No, but definitely presented as such: Emergency budget, etc.

[yahyah]

New ICM poll shows

33% support Brexit unconditionally
23% oppose
32% ''depends on terms''
12% don't know

So a second vote wouldn't necessarily be out of line with how a majority of voters feel.

[daydreamer]

Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)

Not really.
Many people anyway will naturally resist being "wrong".
I am much more worried now about our slide into rascism, bigotry and general hatred than Brexit per se - though I do worry that being outside Europe will leave us weak and vulnerable.
I don't think that the economic armageddon was predicted for after the vote but after the event. And there will be a lag period even after the vote which won't yet be showing.

Stop funding hate might well be the best option for a consumer campaign we have, currently. It would be good if we could get existing campaigning orgs to join it as part of their own remit. Not sure how it would work, but some creative thinking could make it possible.

Is Miliband's position on freedom of movement that bothers me more. If he means it OK we differ on that; if it's part of the we have to be tories cos that's what people vote for thinking it's just part of the problem.

Agree with this. Another referendum might only make us even more divided, (if that's even possible). I'm not sure how it would help matters. Much more worried about the racism and bigotry in general, and the way everything seems to linking together (Trump, possibility of Le Penn in France being elected) to well, make me seriously worried where this is going, and what we can do, if anything, to try and stop it.

Re: Miliband, I haven't seen a link posted so haven't read his comments in context. But, agree with tinyclanger, on his non free movement, i.e. I would want to know if his comments are his own views (and his reasoning) or if he is simply trying to out Tory the Tories. Can't decide one way or the other until I have seen the article or full quotes.

[JonnyT1234]

If you don't mind yahyah, could we please dispense with citing polls? They're worthless tosh that tell you fuck all about how the populace thinks. I really don't know how many times they need to be shown to be such before you start ignoring them?

Edit: I should rephrase that. Not 'how the populace thinks' but 'how the populace will vote'. It's an important difference.

[Willow904]

Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)

I'm not aware anyone is seriously proposing a second in/out referendum. Those supporting a further referendum such as the Greens are proposing one on the form Brexit should take. As polls suggest a majority support remaining in the single market, it's undemocratic to allow the government to pursue a hard Brexit without a mandate. I'm not especially optimistic that a further referendum would be any less catastrophic than the first, from my own perspective, but I feel it is unacceptable for such a large decision for the country to be taken with no democratic mandate behind it. A General Election would be preferable, as Owen Smith has advocated, but seems even less likely. The main point of pushing for a further referendum, however, given May is unlikely to grant one anyway, is to underline and draw attention to the democratic deficit at the heart of May's actions. In the EU referendum the British public voted against EU membership, but they didn't vote for anything. I feel it's important to push back at the Tory narrative of a hard Brexit being the only option and proposing a further referendum to decide between two Brexit choices helps re-enforce the fact that there are different choices, different options, that the path is not yet set.

[yahyah]

Ok Boss. Will write myself a memo. Ignore polls and go and sit in the corner with a dunce's cap on.

[JonnyT1234]

Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)

I'm not aware anyone is seriously proposing a second in/out referendum. Those supporting a further referendum such as the Greens are proposing one on the form Brexit should take. As polls suggest a majority support remaining in the single market, it's undemocratic to allow the government to pursue a hard Brexit without a mandate. I'm not especially optimistic that a further referendum would be any less catastrophic than the first, from my own perspective, but I feel it is unacceptable for such a large decision for the country to be taken with no democratic mandate behind it. A General Election would be preferable, as Owen Smith has advocated, but seems even less likely. The main point of pushing for a further referendum, however, given May is unlikely to grant one anyway, is to underline and draw attention to the democratic deficit at the heart of May's actions. In the EU referendum the British public voted against EU membership, but they didn't vote for anything. I feel it's important to push back at the Tory narrative of a hard Brexit being the only option and proposing a further referendum to decide between two Brexit choices helps re-enforce the fact that there are different choices, different options, that the path is not yet set.

A fair point, and one I can see the worth in though I think Parliament is probably the better place for this to be argued and won, but what you are describing is not a second referendum but just a referendum.

NB. Many people were advocating for a second referendum - on leave/remain, not the terms of Brexit. You had/have been yourself.

[AngryAsWell]

The banks are leaving London
http://uk.businessinsider.com/confident ... xit-2016-7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan would be on its way without May's unrealistic/unknown promises

Ford to consider closing UK factories in Leave towns after Brexit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 62561.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Firms plan to quit UK as City braces for more post-Brexit losses
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... de-reopens" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

British jobs market 'in freefall' after Brexit vote as Bank warns 250,000 jobs will be lost over next few years
Read more:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... years.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Autumn Statement: Hammond must 'prepare for more austerity' as Brexit raises borrowing by £25bn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... y-as-brex/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite a lot of what Remain said would happen is happening, its just happening quietly because they don't want to frighten the horses.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Ok Boss. Will write myself a memo. Ignore polls and go and sit in the corner with a dunce's cap on.

FWIW I don't think it is wrong to quote polls. But after recent events I think a health warning is required........

They (and related things like focus groups) should go back to what they were originally - tools to guide politicians and opinion formers as to how they should sell their message to the wider public, not a way of dictating to them what that message should be.

[Hobiejoe]

Nigel Farage captivates Donald Trump with tales of almost winning South Thanet