Sat 12 and Sun 13 November 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 8:13 am

Morning folks

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 8:16 am

As a first step to counteracting the global hate fest - Farage, Banks, Trump, Wilders, Hopkins, Leavers (many), Trumpers (all) - I'm aiming to adopt a more -oil-on-water demeanour.

I have started with my signature here, but humbly request a degree of patience vis a vis actual demeanour.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 8:19 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rump-tower" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anti-Trump protesters gear up for weekend demonstrations across the US
More than 10,000 have signed up for a Saturday march from New York’s Union Square to Trump Tower, as unrest continues following his victory

Americans showing the Brits on this one

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 8:24 am

Farage: Boris Johnson comments to blame for Trump snubbing UK
The Ukip leader said rude words from senior Tories may have caused Trump to wait before calling the UK
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nubbing-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What he's forgotten is the bit about Britain voting to make itself irrelevant to the US. What was it - a "door to nowhere".

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 8:43 am

Looking forward to hearing this from Corbyn later in the day.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If he sticks to the transcript that's been released it is thankfully short on 'elites' and 'Establishment' of Farage/Trump rhetoric. He uses words like ''corporate vested interests that control our energy our transport and have infiltrated our public services.''

That's allaying my fears of the other day. I wasn't arguing against tackling the 'elites', why would I, just not to use the same rhetoric that the populists are using, to find another way of inform voters about it.

Fingers crossed Labour are finding a way to do that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 8:58 am

Have bookmarked this for a long read later.

It's a very comprehensive looking analysis by Ipsos Public Affairs about Trump's appeal.

''It's nativism: Explaining the drivers of Trumps popular support''
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/fil ... upport.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 9:08 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... to-hold-a/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If anyone sees a list, or names of, the 80 MPs who are 'plotting' with Tim Farron please can you post a link ?
Thanks.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 9:08 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:As a first step to counteracting the global hate fest - Farage, Banks, Trump, Wilders, Hopkins, Leavers (many), Trumpers (all) - I'm aiming to adopt a more -oil-on-water demeanour.

I have started with my signature here, but humbly request a degree of patience vis a vis actual demeanour.

I rather liked the way you wore your heart on your seethe.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 9:10 am

Good morfternoon.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 10:13 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 13276.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Man shot during anti-Trump protest rally in Portland, Oregon

Our new world. Defined by hate.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 10:22 am

‘Prediction professor’ who called Trump’s big win also made another forecast: Trump will be impeached
He was one of the few professional prognosticators to call a Donald Trump win -- and now he has another prediction
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 12451.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I'm going to make another prediction," he said. "This one is not based on a system, it's just my gut. They don't want Trump as president, because they can't control him. He's unpredictable. They'd love to have Pence -- an absolutely down the line, conservative, controllable Republican. And I'm quite certain Trump will give someone grounds for impeachment, either by doing something that endangers national security or because it helps his pocketbook."

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 10:35 am

LEGOVerified account
‏@LEGO_Group
@StopFundingHate We have finished the agreement with The Daily Mail and are not planning any future promotional activity with the newspaper

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 10:45 am

The New York Times is describing Hillary Clinton's win in the popular vote as "substantial". It's a lot bigger than Al Gore's in 2000. The Democrats really need to find a way to turn this support into seats in the house. I've been trying not to care, it's not my country after all, and it was nice to be able to enjoy the jokes on HIGNFY last night knowing this crap was happening elsewhere, but this morning it's the article I linked about the threat Trump and Pence pose to woman's reproductive rights that is upper most in my mind. The stakes in this election for half the population were very high indeed and accepting the outcome against the knowledge that more people voted for Hillary Clinton will be very difficult. Let's hope the initial unrest morphs into a progressive movement to rival Trump's populist one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/opini ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 10:49 am

AngryAsWell wrote:LEGOVerified account
‏@LEGO_Group
@StopFundingHate We have finished the agreement with The Daily Mail and are not planning any future promotional activity with the newspaper

EXCELLENT!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 11:02 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pass it on

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 11:06 am

(please)

Post by **adam** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 11:06 am

Willow904 wrote:The Democrats really need to find a way to turn this support into seats in the house.

Obama said that one of the things he wanted to dedicate his time to after the presidency was redistricting across the country.

I think I'm being straightforward and honest with all this crap and that I'm only the voice of doom because the world really is a shit-hole hell, but there is all but no chance of getting anywhere with this. The democrats can win a clear majority of the House vote in the country, and state by state, but will still lose the house significantly because of so many gerrymandered boundaries.

The national picture is in the hands of congress. The house is all but unwinnable, and the midterm senate elections come on the cycle of one of the Democrats best years in living memory - they have 25 of the 33 seats to defend and whilst it is, of course, a bit more complicated than that, most of those 25 are in states that just voted convincingly for Trump in the GE. I dare you to tell me that people who have just voted for him will see sense about him by then. The Republican's hold of the Senate is very likely to increase, possibly to filibuster-proof levels (60 senators), after 2018.

The real control is with the states, anyway. The Republicans hold 31 governorships and 33 state houses. The dems 15 governorships and 13 statehouses. Not a hope. The house, and the senate, and the governors, and the state houses, won't listen to Obama, or to anyone else moaning about how they cement their control on things.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 11:35 am

Theresa May could try to overturn Brexit court ruling by claiming Article 50 won't affect UK citizens' rights
Exclusive: Government source reveals ministers may use 'dualist system' argument to overturn decision

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 12606.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:03 pm

On Remembrance Sunday, Marr has Marine Le Pen on.
The insults are not even hidden now

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:06 pm

adam wrote:
Willow904 wrote:The Democrats really need to find a way to turn this support into seats in the house.
Obama said that one of the things he wanted to dedicate his time to after the presidency was redistricting across the country.

I think I'm being straightforward and honest with all this crap and that I'm only the voice of doom because the world really is a shit-hole hell, but there is all but no chance of getting anywhere with this. The democrats can win a clear majority of the House vote in the country, and state by state, but will still lose the house significantly because of so many gerrymandered boundaries.

The national picture is in the hands of congress. The house is all but unwinnable, and the midterm senate elections come on the cycle of one of the Democrats best years in living memory - they have 25 of the 33 seats to defend and whilst it is, of course, a bit more complicated than that, most of those 25 are in states that just voted convincingly for Trump in the GE. I dare you to tell me that people who have just voted for him will see sense about him by then. The Republican's hold of the Senate is very likely to increase, possibly to filibuster-proof levels (60 senators), after 2018.

The real control is with the states, anyway. The Republicans hold 31 governorships and 33 state houses. The dems 15 governorships and 13 statehouses. Not a hope. The house, and the senate, and the governors, and the state houses, won't listen to Obama, or to anyone else moaning about how they cement their control on things.

Though we can now at least expect state legislatures to move towards the Dems in the next few years. That is something, and significant in rebuilding the party.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:19 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 13361.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lego ends advertising with Daily Mail after calls for companies to 'Stop Funding Hate'
Toy company responds to campaigners by saying it is "not planning any future promotional activity" with the right-wing paper

Good for Lego

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:23 pm

Richard Corbett: Let’s give the people a final say on the terms of Brexit
It is no good simply shrugging your shoulders and parroting that Britain voted to leave the EU, so it must do so, whatever the cost. If it is not possible to leave in a way that allows our industrial base to grow and generate jobs, which protects our rights, and which gives Britain a say in decisions that affect it, then we should not be bullied by tabloids, the government or UKIP into meekly acquiescing with a political and economic catastrophe.

https://labourlist.org/2016/11/richard- ... of-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

Theresa May could try to overturn Brexit court ruling by claiming Article 50 won't affect UK citizens' rights
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 12606.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regardless of the fact that it patently affects our right to live, trade and work wherever we want in a 28 country block with a market of 510 million.

Perhaps the similar spelling of despot and democracy have confused her.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

Clinton might end up "leading" by about 2 million votes, this could be the most lopsided presidential election (in terms of contrast between PV and EC) since 1876.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

Autumn Statement: Hammond must 'prepare for more austerity' as Brexit raises borrowing by £25bn

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... y-as-brex/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:40 pm

oh my god you guys
good-morning, everyone

Post by **adam** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:44 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
adam wrote:
Willow904 wrote:The Democrats really need to find a way to turn this support into seats in the house.
Obama said that one of the things he wanted to dedicate his time to after the presidency was redistricting across the country.

I think I'm being straightforward and honest with all this crap and that I'm only the voice of doom because the world really is a shit-hole hell, but there is all but no chance of getting anywhere with this. The democrats can win a clear majority of the House vote in the country, and state by state, but will still lose the house significantly because of so many gerrymandered boundaries.

The national picture is in the hands of congress. The house is all but unwinnable, and the midterm senate elections come on the cycle of one of the Democrats best years in living memory - they have 25 of the 33 seats to defend and whilst it is, of course, a bit more complicated than that, most of those 25 are in states that just voted convincingly for Trump in the GE. I dare you to tell me that people who have just voted for him will see sense about him by then. The Republican's hold of the Senate is very likely to increase, possibly to filibuster-proof levels (60 senators), after 2018.

The real control is with the states, anyway. The Republicans hold 31 governorships and 33 state houses. The dems 15 governorships and 13 statehouses. Not a hope. The house, and the senate, and the governors, and the state houses, won't listen to Obama, or to anyone else moaning about how they cement their control on things.
Though we can now at least expect state legislatures to move towards the Dems in the next few years. That is something, and significant in rebuilding the party.

Perhaps. Or perhaps those kinds of cycles are broken by this individualistic populism. People have elected a bigoted, boastful, bullying clown, who ran by telling the most ridiculous lies and then lied about lying, and now he's lying again whilst preparing for office, and I find it very difficult to believe that enough of the electorate care, or will ever care.

It should be the case that his failures will be so obvious that his base will just collapse. It's true that Trump is obviously not going to convince congress to pass any kind of big stimulus package at all - they voted down Bush's desperate please to rescue wall street, there's no chance they'll give a fuck about what would virtually be another New Deal - that he's not going to bring millions of jobs home because he's not going to convince American manufacturers to incur significantly higher costs paying American workers what south east asian children are doing for next to nothing, not going to reopen the coal fields because nobody will pay the astronomical costs it would take, not going to build a wall, never mind getting anyone else to pay for it, and not going to deport 11million illegal immigrants. But he'll talk the talk and his people will whoop it up, and we'll see. People were fucking stupid enough to vote for this nonsense once, so they'll be fucking stupid enough to do it again.

I suppose it's possible that an even bigger demagogue will come along to stand against him and try to lead a rising to do all of the things he's whipped up support for, and if they do that will start in the states - maybe we'll see his 'America First' phrase growing as a new Tea Party within the broader Republican movement.

Post by **adam** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:45 pm

citizenJA wrote:oh my god you guys
good-morning, everyone

*ahem* Afternoon.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:50 pm

Less than 50% voter turnout in the US
Can someone confirm or dispute this, please?

I've had a sick headache for a couple of days.
Every time I regain consciousness there's a blissful time prior remembering current events.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:50 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-faux-pas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The photograph of Mrs May clad in a sari plays well to her Exotic Marigold Hotel constituency but are we to assume that it is her preferred sightseeing attire or should we now expect to see other carefully chosen folkloric costumes on official visits?

The Vietnamese ao dai with its alluring thigh-high split springs to mind as something that might appeal to the PM. No doubt her Indian hosts would have been far too polite to point out how inappropriate it is to adopt fancy dress on a trade mission but perhaps, when he comes to woo a post-Brexit City of London, Mr Modi could emphasise the patronising absurdity of the photo-op by sporting a bowler hat and pinstripes, while no visit to the Tower of London could be complete without dressing up as a Beefeater.
Jullien Gaer
London

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:53 pm

Donald Trump's Conflicts of Interest Could Pose a Constitutional Problem
Ever heard of the emoluments clause?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... al-problem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:55 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Donald Trump's Conflicts of Interest Could Pose a Constitutional Problem
Ever heard of the emoluments clause?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... al-problem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They could but they won't. Half of Bush's cabinet had hopeless conflicts of interests between their government roles and their private holdings but you will never convince enough people to care. Trump will go through the motions of divestment and chinese walls and then shout that pedants and losers are trying to steal the people's election from them.

Post by **adam** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:58 pm

I think more people should go and read or re-read Naomi Wolfe's The Shock Doctrine so they can join me in my advanced and hopeless cynicism.

If Trump can't pass a massive New Deal through congress (and he can't) then instead look to the examples of post invasion Iraq, or post Katrina New Orleans. He'll rebuild roads bridges by giving them, and toll rights in perpetuity, to private companies, create 'enterprise zones' across the country dispensing with corporate taxation and workplace regulation, de-recognise unions and unionised agreements wherever they still hold, give public assets to private companies to profit from...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:59 pm

adam wrote:
I suppose it's possible that an even bigger demagogue will come along to stand against him and try to lead a rising to do all of the things he's whipped up support for, and if they do that will start in the states - maybe we'll see his 'America First' phrase growing as a new Tea Party within the broader Republican movement.

Yes - this is what I was trying to articulate the other day. Weird thing to worry about (Donald Trump retreating on his public intentions), I know, but his not doing all he said that he would do might cause as much, if not more, unrest than if he did do what he's tantalised his followers with. And are his followers the more ugly side to cross than are his opponents? No reason to capitulate to them, but something to think about and be prepared for. Raised and then dashed expectations can be dangerous things.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:59 pm

adam wrote:
citizenJA wrote:oh my god you guys
good-morning, everyone
*ahem* Afternoon.

Perfect!
Yes, it's almost one o'clock in the afternoon.
Unity in the Community group organised a free live music event last night in Hanely. I couldn't attend
and wish I'd been able to go. It was cheerful, uplifting and the bands were good, according to Mr citizen.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:01 pm

citizenJA wrote:oh my god you guys
good-morning, everyone

Morfternoon!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:04 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Donald Trump's Conflicts of Interest Could Pose a Constitutional Problem
Ever heard of the emoluments clause?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... al-problem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Emoluments Clause. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust
under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever,
from any King, Prince, or foreign State."

Did no one notice how unsuitable and lawfully unable to fulfil the duties of US President prior to letting him have space on a ballot?

Post by **adam** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:07 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Donald Trump's Conflicts of Interest Could Pose a Constitutional Problem
Ever heard of the emoluments clause?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... al-problem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Emoluments Clause. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust
under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever,
from any King, Prince, or foreign State."

Did no one notice how unsuitable and lawfully unable to fulfil the duties of US President prior to letting him have space on a ballot?

Keep in mind as well that Congress will be too busy holding hearings into whatever corruption they decide they can pin on Obama from his last acts as president - pardons and so on - to care at all about ever even thinking about investigating their own side.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:15 pm

Mr citizen brought oatmeal raisin biscuits
please help yourselves

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:15 pm

citizenJA wrote:Less than 50% voter turnout in the US
Can someone confirm or dispute this, please?

I've had a sick headache for a couple of days.
Every time I regain consciousness there's a blissful time prior remembering current events.

Fyi current estimates,yet to be certified.

http://www.electproject.org/2016g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:40 pm

Trump seemed a very different man in the video and pics of him at the White House.
Almost humble, certainly not pumped up or triumphal. A bit worried looking.

Maybe he's had his President-elect security briefing and it has scared the bejaysus out of him or he didn't actually want to win and the reality is dawning on him.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:42 pm

virtual food, while meant well, is cruel.
am fantasizing oatmeal cookies.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:44 pm

Sophie Ridge will be covering Corbyn's speech on Sky News. Anytime from 2pm.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:44 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:virtual food, while meant well, is cruel.
am fantasizing oatmeal cookies.

I'm sincerely sorry, I meant well. You're quite right about virtual food. The limitations of virtual community vex me too.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:46 pm

yahyah wrote:Trump seemed a very different man in the video and pics of him at the White House.
Almost humble, certainly not pumped up or triumphal. A bit worried looking.

Maybe he's had his President-elect security briefing and it has scared the bejaysus out of him or he didn't actually want to win and the reality is dawning on him.

Comparisons have been made with the distinctly sheepish appearance of Gove and Johnson the morning after our referendum.

As for the Donald, I have no doubt that he very much wants to *be* President - its just all the (often tedious and detail heavy) actual work it involves that doesn't appeal

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:47 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:virtual food, while meant well, is cruel.
am fantasizing oatmeal cookies.

Get a grip!

Now, if we'd been offered virtual steak and kidney puddings, I might understand.

(Obviously not a temptation for the vegetarians here, I appreciate.)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:49 pm

compare and contrast:

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tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:51 pm

citizenJA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:virtual food, while meant well, is cruel.
am fantasizing oatmeal cookies.
I'm sincerely sorry, I meant well. You're quite right about virtual food. The limitations of virtual community vex me too.

don't be sorry
if i'm going to have to be pleasant then opportunities to be cantankerous are most welcome

(slightly confused by internal conflict emoticon)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:Trump seemed a very different man in the video and pics of him at the White House.
Almost humble, certainly not pumped up or triumphal. A bit worried looking.

Maybe he's had his President-elect security briefing and it has scared the bejaysus out of him or he didn't actually want to win and the reality is dawning on him.
Comparisons have been made with the distinctly sheepish appearance of Gove and Johnson the morning after our referendum.

As for the Donald, I have no doubt that he very much wants to *be* President - its just all the (often tedious and detail heavy) actual work it involves that doesn't appeal

Yeah - and they got over it pretty fast.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:54 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/opini ... &smtyp=cur" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some thoughts from Paul Krugman