Monday 14th November 2016

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:49 pm

Good morfternoon.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:53 pm

Labour Press
Debbie Abrahams MP Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions speech at SoHost

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1531682 ... -state-for" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:05 pm

Anyone who wants to ban any mention of polls about Brexit, please look away now.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... t-opposed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:11 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Given that #JezWeCan is a play on Obama's play on Bob the Builder's slogan, I'm going to assume that tinyb is taking the piss out of Hugo.

I hadn't thought of that, but yes. It may have been unfortunate timing by Hugo, but it seemed a stretch to jump from comparing Trump to Mussolini, to Trump/Corbyn. For some reason It reminds me of the father in the film My Big Fat Greek Wedding, for who the answer to every problem is Windolene, and tries to prove that all words derive from Greek.
Having said that I can see what Hugo's getting at, and having googled it, see the same thing is being argued elsewhere, except with the added insult of claiming a similarity in sexism, racialism & antisemitism etc. So Hugo's take's more acceptable.
Agree with Willow though that Brexit campaign is a better comparison.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:21 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Yvette Cooper was just on Daily Politics making the case for staying in the single market. She was very effective with her arguments as well. Hopefully we'll see more of this.
But she has been one of those arguing freedom of movement has to end (or at least changed in some unspecified way)

I think they've probably been forced into that position, but I really wish parties would make the effort to convince people that immigration isn't the source of their problems. If they truly want to cut the far-right off at source they need to convince enough of their support that it's the wrong thing to do.

Even the Tories don't want it stopped as they know EU immigrants are generally net contributors and so their under investment could become even more apparent, and their convenient scapegoat will no longer work. Although they aren't above punching even further down.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:22 pm

By the way, completely agree with Trump as Berlusconi

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:25 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:The none too subtle message from the news that Obama is having to tutor Trump on how to be a president: Americans, you just elected an idiot.

Do you think many of them will notice?
The bit about them not realising that the whole of the White House staff would have to be replaced is amazing - even I knew that!

It's a shame they can't just out-source/ subcontract it for four years, I suspect Hilary Clinton has a team ready to go.
(I vaguely remember an IT contract, years ago where BT & Mercury both bid, the winner then subcontracted the work to the loser.)

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:25 pm

yahyah wrote:Anyone who wants to ban any mention of polls about Brexit, please look away now.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... t-opposed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting it's such a linear relationship between age and unconditional support for Brexit. Do you think a segment of each age group will become more 'brexity' as they age?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:35 pm

Won't that depend on how Brexit goes ?

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:41 pm

So I see the excuse for Farage (has anyone noticed the similarity between him and Zippy?) apologists for not wearing a poppy whilst meeting the new dictator of Trumpton is that it was the 12th and Armistice day had passed.

Can anyone imagine the howls coming from the usual suspects (I'm looking at you Richard Littlejohn,Kevin McKenzie,Katie Hopkins) if anyone vaguely left leaning had not worn a poppy on Sunday.

Corbyn gets hammered last year for a perceived lack of respect and its plastered all over the media, not forgetting the totally made up attempted smear this year. Farage acts in a totally selfish way putting his own megalomaniacal ambitions before respecting those he has used on his climb up the greasy pole and not a squeak from our "free press"

We seem (frighteningly) to live in times similar to the 1930s when demagogues controlled the agenda of the press/airways and large elements of our press happily acquiesced in spreading their vile propaganda.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:44 pm

Probably, I don't imagine it will go well (although I don't think I'm as worried as some are). Just thought it was interesting that it was so clearly correlated with age. Is it because a certain personality type becomes more entrenched in their views over time?

Smarter people than me could spend ages digging into the reasons behind that.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:50 pm

Wtf is up with Farage thinking he needs to be involved with discussions between US and UK govs? Is he planning to act as an interpreter?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:56 pm

ScarletGas wrote: Corbyn gets hammered last year for a perceived lack of respect and its plastered all over the media, not forgetting the totally made up attempted smear this year.

I noted some right wing frothing about Corbyn's tie at the Festival of Remembrance but they were completely silent about the Cenotaph so I guess he must have had nothing out of place and nodded in the appropriate places.

He was doing a dance on the way though...

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:58 pm

Womble44 wrote:Probably, I don't imagine it will go well (although I don't think I'm as worried as some are). Just thought it was interesting that it was so clearly correlated with age. Is it because a certain personality type becomes more entrenched in their views over time?

Smarter people than me could spend ages digging into the reasons behind that.

In the absence of suggestions from smarter people,
may I humbly suggest, Accumulated exposure to Eurovision?

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:01 pm

Could be, although I defy anyone not have this in their head for the rest of the week:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[youtube]L7CL8anA1hQ[/youtube]

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:02 pm

Probably just my sense of humour, but I love the lyrics in the verses of that

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:07 pm

I was at Derby's war memorial yesterday. There, right in the centre was a wreath with the UKIP logo very loud in its centre. The other parties don't do this. UKIP are trying to steal patriotism all for themselves.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:11 pm

Meanwhile, there are some updates from the trial of Thomas Mair on Twitter.

I genuinely don't know how all those people (JHB, Mensch especially) who instantly tried to depoliticise the whole thing can live with themselves. Shameful.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:14 pm

UQ on bedroom tax at 15.30.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:32 pm

The Independent Verified account ‏@Independent 20m20 minutes ago

Man repeatedly shouted 'Britain First' before killing MP Jo Cox, court hears http://ind.pn/2fNdugg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh?

Britain First, BNP And EDL Among Far-Right Groups To March With Nigel Farage On Supreme Court

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/s ... e24ab0ec18

Ah.

Think Nigel might want to reconsider this march...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:41 pm

Frank F. Field. I despair. Given that his constituency is pretty impoverished, why give IDS and the government an easy ride?

The main point is that so many people are dependent upon food banks, not the bureaucracy.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:51 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
ScarletGas wrote: Corbyn gets hammered last year for a perceived lack of respect and its plastered all over the media, not forgetting the totally made up attempted smear this year.
I noted some right wing frothing about Corbyn's tie at the Festival of Remembrance but they were completely silent about the Cenotaph so I guess he must have had nothing out of place and nodded in the appropriate places.

He was doing a dance on the way though...

That one got killed pretty efficiently, tbf. Contrast with the ridiculous "he didn't bow deeply enough" kerfuffle a year ago.

And I will say one thing for our new PM - she wasn't festooned with poppies, in contrast to her predecessor then

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 3:59 pm

yahyah wrote:Anyone who wants to ban any mention of polls about Brexit, please look away now.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... t-opposed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Would you say that your support or opposition for Brexit is unconditional, or would you say that it depends on the terms agreed in the final deal with Europe?"

I'd seen this referenced somewhere on another comments thread yesterday. I can't remember where at the moment. The 23% of those asked opposed to Brexit and further 12% who didn't know one way or another didn't figure in the exchange at all. I think they pose an inconvenient segment of the population for those wanting the UK out of the EU. I've nothing against Mike Smithson but I don't like the way his question in this poll is worded.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 4:05 pm

citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:Anyone who wants to ban any mention of polls about Brexit, please look away now.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... t-opposed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Would you say that your support or opposition for Brexit is unconditional, or would you say that it depends on the terms agreed in the final deal with Europe?"
I'd seen this referenced somewhere on another comments thread yesterday. I can't remember where at the moment. The 23% of those asked opposed to Brexit and further 12% who didn't know one way or another didn't figure in the exchange at all. I think they pose an inconvenient segment of the population for those wanting the UK out of the EU. I've nothing against Mike Smithson but I don't like the way his question in this poll is worded.

It wasn't his question JA. The polling company set it. He's just giving his views on the data now he's seen it, he hadn't had all the info yesterday when ICM released it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 4:09 pm

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:Anyone who wants to ban any mention of polls about Brexit, please look away now.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... t-opposed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Would you say that your support or opposition for Brexit is unconditional, or would you say that it depends on the terms agreed in the final deal with Europe?"
I'd seen this referenced somewhere on another comments thread yesterday. I can't remember where at the moment. The 23% of those asked opposed to Brexit and further 12% who didn't know one way or another didn't figure in the exchange at all. I think they pose an inconvenient segment of the population for those wanting the UK out of the EU. I've nothing against Mike Smithson but I don't like the way his question in this poll is worded.
It wasn't his question JA. The polling company set it. He's just giving his views on the data now he's seen it, he hadn't had all the info yesterday when ICM released it.

Good, good. Thank you for letting me know. I only looked at the information briefly and didn't see who'd done the data collection.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 4:10 pm

It's not 4.15 and the day is closing. Anyone for tea?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 4:11 pm

Yanis Varoufakis: After Donald Trump’s awful victory, the left must be more ambitious
The US election result and Brexit have shown that political revolution is possible, says the former Greek finance minister.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/br ... st-be-more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A lot of echos from posts on FTN today

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 4:13 pm

Put that stuff about his complete ignorance of the responsibilities of the office next to this:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Incidentally, this journalist nailed the election result about six months ago, even before Michael Moore.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 4:21 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Yanis Varoufakis: After Donald Trump’s awful victory, the left must be more ambitious
The US election result and Brexit have shown that political revolution is possible, says the former Greek finance minister.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/br ... st-be-more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A lot of echos from posts on FTN today

So Yanis agrees with me about Trump/Mussolini

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 4:57 pm

I'm really sorry, but I just don't understand the fear of Trump as a politician. I understand why the rhetoric was dangerous, but I feel that a certain segment of US society wanted to hear that anyway, so I don't particularly think he caused it.

To me, he seems too unfocused and inconsistent to be that scary, and in particular his policy platform is basically standard republican. I don't support it, but I don't understand the fear of that platform over any of the other republican candidates.

He's contradicted himself so many times that I see him being more of an opportunist, than someone that will push through anything beyond what any other republican would.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:01 pm

In fact, I would go as far as saying that I've found the bulk of media analysis of his election as profoundly embarrassing and insulting. The media seem more upset that he isn't sugar coating the beliefs for public consumption, and are surprised that some people like that.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:02 pm

Womble44 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Yvette Cooper was just on Daily Politics making the case for staying in the single market. She was very effective with her arguments as well. Hopefully we'll see more of this.
But she has been one of those arguing freedom of movement has to end (or at least changed in some unspecified way)
I think they've probably been forced into that position, but I really wish parties would make the effort to convince people that immigration isn't the source of their problems. If they truly want to cut the far-right off at source they need to convince enough of their support that it's the wrong thing to do.

Even the Tories don't want it stopped as they know EU immigrants are generally net contributors and so their under investment could become even more apparent, and their convenient scapegoat will no longer work. Although they aren't above punching even further down.

Good post. Do people understand the implications of their decisions regarding migration/immigration? I don't think some think it through.
On the doorstep talking with people I listened to their dissatisfaction that people from other countries come to live and work in our community.
Same people, different story... Pleased and proud accounts of their son/daughter/grandchild currently living in Another Country studying/working/married/raising family....

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:03 pm

Womble44 wrote:I'm really sorry, but I just don't understand the fear of Trump as a politician. I understand why the rhetoric was dangerous, but I feel that a certain segment of US society wanted to hear that anyway, so I don't particularly think he caused it.

To me, he seems too unfocused and inconsistent to be that scary, and in particular his policy platform is basically standard republican. I don't support it, but I don't understand the fear of that platform over any of the other republican candidates.

He's contradicted himself so many times that I see him being more of an opportunist, than someone that will push through anything beyond what any other republican would.

Standard republican? Expanding government is diametrically opposed to that. Ditto his talk of TTIP, NAFTA and trade in general.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:11 pm

I guess, I was talking more in terms of taxes and social policy, don't left wingers want investment in infrastructure? Weren't those sorts of trade deals the sort of thing that encouraged some lefties to vote for Brexit?

I don't support Trump, it just feels to me like people are upset because he isn't following the etiquette and saying what he wants to do, rather than because the low tax, pro business model isn't actually good for Americans long term.

If Rubio had won and carried on with a small state agenda, I don't think people would be as upset, even though the same social problems would occur.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:15 pm

People need to be careful what they say on social media about Thomas Mair.

Contempt laws apply during trial, and his defence team can make a case that he won't get a fair trial if there is too much commentary about him. Murdoch's lawyers tried it with the hacking trial. They had employees scouring for internet posts and tweets to present to the judge.

edited to add....I mean in general, not just here, not pointing the finger at anyone.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:16 pm

Incidentally, I don't think he'll actually succeed in improving infrastructure in the places that need it. He's talking about attracting private investors to fund it, and I don't see him getting the subsidies to make that viable for anywhere poor

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:26 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Womble44 wrote:I'm really sorry, but I just don't understand the fear of Trump as a politician. I understand why the rhetoric was dangerous, but I feel that a certain segment of US society wanted to hear that anyway, so I don't particularly think he caused it.

To me, he seems too unfocused and inconsistent to be that scary, and in particular his policy platform is basically standard republican. I don't support it, but I don't understand the fear of that platform over any of the other republican candidates.

He's contradicted himself so many times that I see him being more of an opportunist, than someone that will push through anything beyond what any other republican would.
Standard republican? Expanding government is diametrically opposed to that. Ditto his talk of TTIP, NAFTA and trade in general.

re: expanding gvt, remembered seeing something like this:-
https://mises.org/blog/if-you-want-bigg ... republican
personal view is: if he's prepared to say things he's said, then I have to presume he's prepared to enact them, but would hope he's not.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:35 pm

Womble44 wrote:I'm really sorry, but I just don't understand the fear of Trump as a politician. I understand why the rhetoric was dangerous, but I feel that a certain segment of US society wanted to hear that anyway, so I don't particularly think he caused it.

To me, he seems too unfocused and inconsistent to be that scary, and in particular his policy platform is basically standard republican. I don't support it, but I don't understand the fear of that platform over any of the other republican candidates.

He's contradicted himself so many times that I see him being more of an opportunist, than someone that will push through anything beyond what any other republican would.

Thank you for expressing this. I'll do my best to explain why Trump is scary.

There have been not-so-good US Presidents in the past. For example, George W Bush wasn't an intelligent person and didn't make
many good decisions. However, his father had been a US President before him which leant continuity to his occupation of the White
House. His hobbies safely included three hours of vigorous exercise daily. He slept nine hours. He was tolerably domestic.

The President of the US is not just powerful in the US. The US President has been a world leader for decades. There hasn't been
a US President within my memory I wouldn't feel safe alone with until now. That's not meant to be funny, it's not funny, it's true.
That leaves a huge gap where the 'Leader of the Free World' used to safely, if not companionably, reside within the psyche
of US citizens and others all over the world.

Orange County, California, is Republican territory and has been for a hundred years or more. These frightened, wealthy
Republicans voted for Clinton this time. The world has been knocked askew for many. We can only hope for the best.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:39 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Womble44 wrote:I'm really sorry, but I just don't understand the fear of Trump as a politician. I understand why the rhetoric was dangerous, but I feel that a certain segment of US society wanted to hear that anyway, so I don't particularly think he caused it.

To me, he seems too unfocused and inconsistent to be that scary, and in particular his policy platform is basically standard republican. I don't support it, but I don't understand the fear of that platform over any of the other republican candidates.

He's contradicted himself so many times that I see him being more of an opportunist, than someone that will push through anything beyond what any other republican would.
Standard republican? Expanding government is diametrically opposed to that. Ditto his talk of TTIP, NAFTA and trade in general.

That point is correct and it may be his undoing with some of his voters.

He's posed as a maverick, big spender, policies that would increase the deficit increaser etc. yet some of the people he's got on board are fiscal conservatives which is inconsistent with his campaign pitch.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:42 pm

yahyah wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
Womble44 wrote:I'm really sorry, but I just don't understand the fear of Trump as a politician. I understand why the rhetoric was dangerous, but I feel that a certain segment of US society wanted to hear that anyway, so I don't particularly think he caused it.

To me, he seems too unfocused and inconsistent to be that scary, and in particular his policy platform is basically standard republican. I don't support it, but I don't understand the fear of that platform over any of the other republican candidates.

He's contradicted himself so many times that I see him being more of an opportunist, than someone that will push through anything beyond what any other republican would.
Standard republican? Expanding government is diametrically opposed to that. Ditto his talk of TTIP, NAFTA and trade in general.

That point is correct and it may be his undoing with some of his voters.

He's posed as a maverick, big spender, policies that would increase the deficit increaser etc. yet some of the people he's got on board are fiscal conservatives which is inconsistent with his campaign pitch.

Regardless of what he said in his campaign, he has what powers, especially when it comes to government finance, that congress give him. The republicans in congress are overwhelmingly small state, no public spending, no state provision hawks.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:43 pm

Part of Trump's scariness is his unpredictability - at least with HRC you had a fairly good idea of what you were getting.

The often contradictory nature of his electoral platform just adds to the uncertainty.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:44 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
The Independent Verified account ‏@Independent 20m20 minutes ago

Man repeatedly shouted 'Britain First' before killing MP Jo Cox, court hears http://ind.pn/2fNdugg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Oh?

Britain First, BNP And EDL Among Far-Right Groups To March With Nigel Farage On Supreme Court

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/s ... e24ab0ec18

Ah.

Think Nigel might want to reconsider this march...

I think they suit him down to the ground.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:45 pm

Of course they might not want him there.

One evening in October
When I was about one-third sober
And was taking home a load with manly pride
My poor feet began to stutter
So I lay down in the gutter
And a pig came up and lay down by my side

Then we sang "It's All Fair Weather"
And "Good Fellows Get Together"
Till a lady passing by was heard to say
She says, "You can tell a man who boozes
By the company he chooses"
And the pig got up and slowly walked away

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:49 pm

From John Oliver

“Our president-elect has, at various times, said he would bomb civilians, loot oil and waterboard, which isn’t a military strategy so much as the series of words that Donald Rumsfeld mutters so he can stay hard while he’s masturbating,” he said.

Oliver went on to say: “We are faced with the same questions as a guy that woke up the day after a Vegas bachelor party, deep in the desert, naked, tied to a cactus and a dead clown. Namely, how the fuck did we get here and what the fuck do we do now?”

He also discussed a common Republican response since the result: pundits and politicians telling us to give him a chance and see what happens.

“It’s like we’re on a plane and we just found out our pilot is a wombat,” he said. “I don’t like this, I don’t understand how it happened and I’m pretty sure we’re heading for disaster but what the hell, come on, batty, prove me wrong!”

He also believes that this can be a dangerous frame of mind to have. “Optimism is nice if you can swing it but you’ve got to be careful because it can feed into the normalization of Donald Trump, and he is not normal,” he said. “He is abnormal. He is a human ‘what is wrong with this picture?’”

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 6:03 pm

It's not so much Trump, who is scary enough, it's the racists, borderline fascists and downright evil that he is surrounding himself with.

There's been a lot of talk this weekend that this administration must not be normalised, it isn't, and that must never be forgotten.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 6:13 pm

Thanks, will give it some thought. I still feel that any other republican administration would be just as bad in terms of their actions, my instincts just tell me Trump is a bit of a bull shitter. He's already back peddling on some of his policies

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 6:25 pm

citizenJA wrote:It's not 4.15 and the day is closing. Anyone for tea?

yes please...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 6:27 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:It's not 4.15 and the day is closing. Anyone for tea?
yes please...

tea.gif

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 6:28 pm

Damian Green re.bedroom tax.

"operate a number of exemptions to the policy, and they include: all pensioners; households with a dependent child receiving the middle or higher rate care component of disability living allowance"

Just clear nonsense,gob smackingly ignorant or purposefullly lying,you decide.

Apparently words carefully chosen -can in certain circumstances.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 6:30 pm

At least Webb,the stand in for IDS during the last Government.on these occasions at least knew the rules.Why the fuck do you think the Rurtherfords were at the Supreme Court.

See above.