Monday 14th November 2016

Post by **refitman** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:15 am

Morning

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Guardian view on social care: higher taxes or worse services

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:20 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ge-monbiot

How a ruthless network of super-rich ideologues killed choice and destroyed people’s faith in politics

Spoiler: It was all Maggie's fault (warning, contains picture)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:27 am

Good-morning, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:34 am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Employees £3,500 a year worse off under Tories, says Labour
Party says slow wage growth means chancellor should not go ahead with ‘damaging cuts’ to universal credit

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:43 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sink or swim attack on the rights of disabled people

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 9:00 am

Morning. The good news keeps rolling in:

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HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 9:05 am

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publicatio ... in-the-nhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sustainability and transformation plans in the NHS
How are they being developed in practice?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 9:23 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... me-to.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cutting the Mail down to size: welcome to Scotland
Mainly macro

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 9:31 am

Normalization in action:

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yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:12 am

There are some parallels between Trump and Mussolini's propaganda operation.
I've been reading a lot this year about that period in Italy to find out more about what life was like for my relatives who lived in Emilia Romagna, one of the areas of anti-Fascist resistance.

Trump obviously doesn't portray himself as physically virile in the way Il Duce did (& Putin does with his barechested stunts) but Italian Fascists didn't mind the public knowing Mussolini was sexually voracious and therefore 'virile'.
Trump's repulsive boasts and alleged activities were excused by some as him ''loving women''.

Also there was a scandal in Italy when Mussolini was reported to have accepted cheques from the French government (resented because of the Paris Peace Conference) early on in his political career. He did not sue for libel. Sounds familiar ?

Don't think Trump will go as far as Il Duce who posed at that time as living in a small room with a few sticks of furniture to fight the ''slanders'' and allegations that he had accepted money.

Fascist slogans ''Il Duce ha sempre ragione'' The Duce is always right. ''Me ne frego'' I don't give a damn.
Trump and Farage certainly embody the latter.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:17 am

What Trump and Corbyn had in common was social media. People like living in their closed bubble worlds, untroubled by voices they don't want to hear. Particularly voices saying "it is more complex than that."

The other thing in common seems to be dislike for Nato, and deep sympathy for Putin, bit that is rather different.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:37 am

The BBC have just noticed.
NHS bosses 'trying to keep cuts secret'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37943379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A spokesman for NHS England said that by the end of this week, plans for at least half of the reviews would be published - and the intention had always been to consult on the final plans if major changes were going to be made.
"I am sure there are things that could be learnt about the process. But when you are trying to improve care across a whole system, things are never going to be straightforward," added Prof Sir Bruce Keogh, NHS England's medical director.
However, Councillor Izzi Seccombe, of the Local Government Association, which represents councils, suggested the stance was a sham - as the public would in effect be consulted on "pre-determined solutions".

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:48 am

Berlusconi may be a better fit for Trump IMO.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:48 am

I’ve been thinking a lot about the meeting between Trump and Obama at the White House......
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Obama’s chance for the most perfect revenge that would never be picked up on as revenge at all...................he would have treated Trump like an equal, and brought the discussion to a level that assumes far more of Trump than anyone has so far. Assumes that he’s an adult who’s been paying attention. Statistics, esoteric minutiae about the executive branch procedure, economic growth numbers, labor figures, domestic policies, countries Trump has never even heard of, shit that would never in a million years have been in Trump’s campaign soundbites or digestible summaries.
No way to escape. No aides to remember any of it for him. Just the two of them.

I'd like to think Obama sees it that way.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

Morning all.

And Wolf used to be a government favourite when Give was around...no longer.

England’s higher education system ‘in tatters’

https://www.ft.com/content/07c2fbcc-a9b ... f98a0cf216

England’s higher education system is “in tatters”, according to a leading think-tank, with some qualifications “on the verge of total collapse”.

A report by Professor Alison Wolf of King’s College London has found that an increase in university graduates has resulted in “an unsustainable” funding system, while technical qualifications below degree level have suffered a “steep decline” in student numbers.

and

The growing number of graduates, meanwhile, has resulted in 30 per cent of the English workforce being overqualified for their role, compared with an OECD average of 22 per cent.

Baroness Wolf warned that increasing numbers of graduate students would lead to more government debt, as 70 per cent of full-time students taking out a loan are forecast not to repay it.

The trend of rising graduate numbers and declining technical qualifications will result in “huge costs for both the taxpayer and for students carrying loans for university study”, she said.

At some point, someone is going to have to say that while it's great that all who want to go to university should be able to do so, we simply cannot afford it.

That 70% is really alarming - the last I saw was in the 50-55% mark. Just not sustainable going forward.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 11:02 am

I'm not quite sure what I think about Roy Lilley.
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/How- ... ioK0cmKVwI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No problem with his analysis.

the STPs. Why is everyone on their case?

Think about it. There is huge demand and virtually no way to do much about it, other than analyse flow and divert it. Segment the users, redefine what care looks like, who does it and where.

That's called having a plan. To give the plans traction we have to have an overarching group of people who can pull the plan together. That's what we used to call a strategic health authority. Before that, a Regional Health Authority.

LaLa scrapped them and we are paying the price for trying to work without them. Hence STPs. They are a cobbled together, make-do-and-mend, lashed up solutions.

But then we should just let them get on with it?

Most STPs plans are far from oven-ready and need the time and space to get heads around what happens next. Leaking half baked documents is childish and feeds the egos of the 'know-betters' and deceives the public who may not realise, by law, in the end, will always have to be consulted in the normal way.

MPs, nervous about keeping their seats, shouldn't start hares running; it invites questions about why they voted for austerity economics that's made all this dismantling necessary.

We have to allow the STPs to do their job. Some will fail and we will learn. Some will be stunning and we will learn.

STPs are not the new kids on the block. They are the only kids on the block; to see us though the life and death weeks that we have left.

Cloud cuckoo land.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 11:04 am

SpinningHugo wrote:What Trump and Corbyn had in common was social media. People like living in their closed bubble worlds, untroubled by voices they don't want to hear. Particularly voices saying "it is more complex than that."

The other thing in common seems to be dislike for Nato, and deep sympathy for Putin, bit that is rather different.

Fortunately, we have you to think for us Hugo.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 11:06 am

NonOxCol wrote:Normalization in action:

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Back in the inter war period lots of "moderate" conservatives openly preferred fascism to socialism.

Judging by recent events, its not hard to see how.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 11:34 am

So the reason/excuse given for the remembrance day interview with Marine Le Pen was to "hold her to account"

We are living in an age where we are constantly surprised but I am genuinely amazed that anyone can really think that any BBC TV interviewer (with the possible exception of Andrew Neil/James O'Brien) can hold anyone to account.

Blimey if Andrew Marr is the best you've got then we really are in trouble!

Pre scripted questions with very little in the way of allowance for follow up or questioning of answers means that we rarely get any light or substance from any interviewee save for the message they want to put across.

We are now subject to "post truth" politics like never before and there seems very little any of the broadcasting organisations are willing/able to counteract the ability of politicians or any public figure to (lets call it what it really is) lie with impunity.

Now with proven liars at the heart of our political systems with no one to call them out it is staggering (to me) that the political class (and here I include political reporters/interviewers) are confused as to the disdain and disrepute they are currently viewed by the general public.

But whether they really care is another question.......................

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 11:47 am

frightful_oik wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:What Trump and Corbyn had in common was social media. People like living in their closed bubble worlds, untroubled by voices they don't want to hear. Particularly voices saying "it is more complex than that."

The other thing in common seems to be dislike for Nato, and deep sympathy for Putin, bit that is rather different.
Fortunately, we have you to think for us Hugo.

Hmm, there are remarkable similarities though,
The 'make America great again' baseball cap bears a strikingly similarity to the 'JezWeCan' one for starters.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:11 pm

Andrew Marr is a notoriously "soft" interviewer (except when he is quizzing somebody to the left of Blair, anyway)

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:25 pm

ScarletGas wrote:So the reason/excuse given for the remembrance day interview with Marine Le Pen was to "hold her to account"

We are living in an age where we are constantly surprised but I am genuinely amazed that anyone can really think that any BBC TV interviewer (with the possible exception of Andrew Neil/James O'Brien) can hold anyone to account.

Blimey if Andrew Marr is the best you've got then we really are in trouble!

Pre scripted questions with very little in the way of allowance for follow up or questioning of answers means that we rarely get any light or substance from any interviewee save for the message they want to put across.

We are now subject to "post truth" politics like never before and there seems very little any of the broadcasting organisations are willing/able to counteract the ability of politicians or any public figure to (lets call it what it really is) lie with impunity.

Now with proven liars at the heart of our political systems with no one to call them out it is staggering (to me) that the political class (and here I include political reporters/interviewers) are confused as to the disdain and disrepute they are currently viewed by the general public.

But whether they really care is another question.......................

The sheer self-satisfaction oozing from BBC News and Politics is almost as sickening as their embarrassing bias. As long ago as it seems, 2016 began with "Laura sealed the deal", lest we forget.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Andrew Marr is a notoriously "soft" interviewer (except when he is quizzing somebody to the left of Blair, anyway)

When stand in Eddie Mair monstered Johnson, the possibility of proper interviewing became apparent. Was it a stretch to think that Oliver and Llewellyn ensured this didn't happen again?

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:27 pm

Sweden's chief prosecutor is questioning WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange about a rape allegation at the Ecuadorean embassy in London.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37972528" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Finally. One wonders why the Swedish authorities have not done so before now.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:31 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
frightful_oik wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:What Trump and Corbyn had in common was social media. People like living in their closed bubble worlds, untroubled by voices they don't want to hear. Particularly voices saying "it is more complex than that."

The other thing in common seems to be dislike for Nato, and deep sympathy for Putin, bit that is rather different.
Fortunately, we have you to think for us Hugo.
Hmm, there are remarkable similarities though,
The 'make America great again' baseball cap bears a strikingly similarity to the 'JezWeCan' one for starters.

Although I suspect you aren't being entirely serious with this comment, it has got me thinking and in conclusion, I don't think there are any similarities at all. "JezWeCan" is an affectionate attempt by a small group of earnest and thoughtful people to try to galvanise wider enthusiasm for their cause. "Make America Great" in contrast is a carefully devised political strategy that originated in the Tea Party wing of the Republican party to attempt to reach parts of the electorate who are too poor to be swayed by their tax and economic policies for the wealthy. It has been taken up by the billionaire owned press both sides of the Atlantic and has greater similarities to the Brexit campaign and the almost unanimous utterance of successful Brexit voters that they have "got my country back". I don't think the similarities are coincidental.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:33 pm

55-year-old English man fluent in Spanish, after working in media for two decades, has somehow never come across the word "dystopia".

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Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:38 pm

Yvette Cooper was just on Daily Politics making the case for staying in the single market. She was very effective with her arguments as well. Hopefully we'll see more of this.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:41 pm

NonOxCol wrote:55-year-old English man fluent in Spanish, after working in media for two decades, has somehow never come across the word "dystopia".

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We all gotta learn it some day

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:41 pm

"The BBC is doing the far right's work for it."

Ian Dunt.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11 ... ork-for-it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice to see people catch up. Some of us had them nailed back in pre-nesting days (on the H&SC Bill/Act and welfare especially), since when they have got far worse, and dangerously so.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:43 pm

Given that #JezWeCan is a play on Obama's play on Bob the Builder's slogan, I'm going to assume that tinyb is taking the piss out of Hugo.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:47 pm

I'm also going to surmise that Hugo never actually uses Social Media, because it's the very last place you will go to only hear the same views of people living in the same bubble as you.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:48 pm

Willow904 wrote:Yvette Cooper was just on Daily Politics making the case for staying in the single market. She was very effective with her arguments as well. Hopefully we'll see more of this.

Does this mean Labour doesn't have one policy regarding the EU referendum result and the UK/EU relationship? Or can staying in the single market and limiting free movement co-exist? Genuine questions.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:51 pm

Staying in the single market and limits on free movement cannot exist. It's a pipe dream. The EU is never going to agree to it, particularly the Eastern European components of it. At least, not without extracting an extortionate cost from us. Which the Tories are probably stupid enough to agree to. I remain to be convinced that the majority of the PLP is less stupid.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:52 pm

Willow904 wrote:Yvette Cooper was just on Daily Politics making the case for staying in the single market. She was very effective with her arguments as well. Hopefully we'll see more of this.

But she has been one of those arguing freedom of movement has to end (or at least changed in some unspecified way)

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:52 pm

JP Morgan: Trump's stimulus plan would be dangerous

Donald Trump’s plan to boost US economic growth by rebuilding the nation’s infrastructure is dangerous and unnecessary, claims JP Morgan’s chief global strategist, David Kelly.

Former US Treasury secretary Larry Summers shares JP Morgan’s concerns about Trump’s infrastructure investment plan.

Writing in the Financial Times, Summers argues that the scheme won’t address the parts of America that most need improving, won’t get key private sector investors involved, and risks pushing borrowing to dangerous levels

Two stories from today's guardian business blog

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:52 pm

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So the BBC, which went after Labour anti-Semitism like the proverbial dog with a bone, has failed to use the term in connection with Steve Bannon.

What a fucking surprise. What a bloody disgrace it is.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:56 pm

I think you're confused NonOxCol, a man who hates Jews isn't an anti-Semite. That's someone who hates Israelis and Palestinians murdering innocent people.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:03 pm

The none too subtle message from the news that Obama is having to tutor Trump on how to be a president: Americans, you just elected an idiot.

Do you think many of them will notice?

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:06 pm

NonOxCol wrote:

So the BBC, which went after Labour anti-Semitism like the proverbial dog with a bone, has failed to use the term in connection with Steve Bannon.

What a fucking surprise. What a bloody disgrace it is.

I was trying to think of analogy for Brietbart being appointed as chief advisers, but I just can't, there isn't anything.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:07 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:The none too subtle message from the news that Obama is having to tutor Trump on how to be a president: Americans, you just elected an idiot.

Do you think many of them will notice?

No. Why worry about detail? He's an outsider, build the wall, take our country back, &c &c

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:16 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Staying in the single market and limits on free movement cannot exist. It's a pipe dream. The EU is never going to agree to it, particularly the Eastern European components of it. At least, not without extracting an extortionate cost from us. Which the Tories are probably stupid enough to agree to. I remain to be convinced that the majority of the PLP is less stupid.

Yvette Cooper and Ed Miliband are too intelligent to not notice single market and free movement are inseparable. What are they playing at?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:16 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/t ... c74c52c83c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Tory MP Attacks Theresa May On Bedroom Tax And Disability Cuts

(John Redwood)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:19 pm

"There have been heavy losses across the government bond markets today, both in developed and emerging economies"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... 4c9194688c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:20 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/t ... c74c52c83c?

Tory MP Attacks Theresa May On Bedroom Tax And Disability Cuts

(John Redwood)

Did Redwood finally get 'round to reading the legislation he's helped create and vote through? It's only taken him nearly seven years.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:25 pm

Governance isn't sport, not theatre, not a game of any kind. I resent players taking on leadership and forcing people to watch, listen, read their antics and still don't get their needs met.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:36 pm

I am no longer a member of Labour, I have given a fair chunk of the years, when able to, but I would join Welsh Labour if I was able to, chiefly because Carwyn Jones mostly gets it right.

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RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:38 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:The none too subtle message from the news that Obama is having to tutor Trump on how to be a president: Americans, you just elected an idiot.

Do you think many of them will notice?

The bit about them not realising that the whole of the White House staff would have to be replaced is amazing - even I knew that!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:40 pm

Good old Carwyn Jones pointing out Farage's hypocrisy.

Farage is a ''grinning poppyless poppinjay in a gold lift with Donald Trump.''

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 16396.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:49 pm

yahyah wrote:Good old Carwyn Jones pointing out Farage's hypocrisy.

Farage is a ''grinning poppyless poppinjay in a gold lift with Donald Trump.''

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 16396.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought this was the best bit -

I will never insist that anyone must wear a poppy, or attend remembrance events. This is a free country, and people choose to remember in different ways.

But, hypocrisy is something else altogether. You don’t get to appropriate the Battle of Britain in your campaign literature, only to prioritise transatlantic photo-ops a few months later. (Independent)