Tuesday 15th November 2016

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 6:47 pm

Womble44 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... discipline
Maybe this will play well politicallly, I don't know, but economically I'm not sure it makes much sense. Surely the thing he is pledging, fiscal consolidation, is the same as the thing as he is condemning, fiscal austerity?!

One assumes by "austerity" he really means spending cuts, but the commitment to reducing the deficit suggests tax rises and although there are advantages to doing it that way, it's still austerity with many of the drawbacks. Unless he's just talking about borrowing to invest in an attempt to grow the economy, in which case it would be better not to bring fiscal consolidation into it as it just confuses things. Well, it confuses me, anyway.

It is gibberish.

Not that it matters as i dont think people are listening to what Labour is saying, because nobody thinks will ever matter.

They might be wrong of course (see Trump) but I dont think it likely
It's not 'gibberish' it's quite possible to oppose austerity as it's understood in common parlance (spending less on public services) and still understand you can't just do what you want. Ultimately it means tax rises, which in economic terms may have the same impacts on consumer spending etc, but it's a very different demographic that has to cut back.

i really don't think you understand why you were wrong about Trump. Try stopping the passive aggressive asides, and you might convince more people to listen to you. Insulting those that disagree with you is poisonous to constructive dialogue.

Whether you cut spending or raise taxes, it still dampens growth which affects everyone. McDonnell would do better to steer clear of the economics and stick with the theme of Tory ideological cuts to the welfare state, because that's what they are and always were, the deficit was just an excuse. Indeed, it's vital that the welfare state and our ability to sustain it is de-coupled from fiscal policy altogether and returned to the realm of a fundamental pillar of civilised society as opposed to an optional extra to be dumped every time the economy hits a little bump in the road.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 6:48 pm

@womble

It was to myself. A memo to self. For helping to create this mess by the way I voted in the leadership election in 2015 despite warnings from good souls like LetsSkip and many others who don't post on here any more.

You don't have to rise to it, or sit down to or stand to it. Ignore it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 6:51 pm

Womble44 wrote:
yahyah wrote:It was rather odd to see McDonnell use the say there is ''no money tree''.

That's a phrase that's been used by a million right wingers to attack Labour since 2010.
But there isn't; the budget needs to be controlled.

That is not the point I was making. It was his use of the language of right wingers.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:10 pm

tinybgoat wrote:I'm trying to convince myself that Labour could be positioning themselves as the guardian of the true spirit of brexit, ready to point out how Tories are betraying the peoples will..
but sadly it's not working.
Beverages may be needed.

There's a bottle of ale on the kitchen trolley I've been looking at with interest since coming back from a walk in the drizzle. I'm anxious, my head and eyes ache.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:18 pm

The way I see it is that Philip Hammond will shortly be giving the magic money tree a mighty big shake in his budget (infrastructure spending, etc). IOW, he's preparing the ground for an attack.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:20 pm

PorFavor wrote:
The dangerous fantasy behind Trump’s normalisation

Boris Johnson has urged people to ‘snap out of the doom and gloom’. Yet this situation is not normal. Convincing ourselves the president-elect doesn’t mean everything he says is a fantasy that stops us seeing Trumpism for the barbarism it is (Guardian)
Do read it. (It's by Zoe Williams, by the way.)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -barbarism

Yes, thought provoking. I need to ponder it a little.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:33 pm

yahyah wrote:@womble

It was to myself. A memo to self. For helping to create this mess by the way I voted in the leadership election in 2015 despite warnings from good souls like LetsSkip and many others who don't post on here any more.

You don't have to rise to it, or sit down to or stand to it. Ignore it.

No, it's a passive aggressive statement to say that people that disagree with you are fooled by a charlatan and need to learn the lessons that you have. If it's entirely for your consumption it does not need to be posted on a public forum.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:36 pm

Willow904

The point is, if we are going to dampen growth through cut backs, them direct the cuts at those that can afford it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:44 pm

Womble44 wrote:Willow904

The point is, if we are going to dampen growth through cut backs, them direct the cuts at those that can afford it.

And my point is that the austerity ship has long sailed. Opposing what your opposite number has already dumped is pointless. The Tory attacks on the welfare state are political, not economic, so fight them politically.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:00 pm

Have we had this?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... footer-nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Britain probably leaving EU customs union, says Boris Johnson

God, he's a calamity, isn't he?
At least Starmer has ensured Labour is unequivocal on this, and on the right side of the argument from my perspective. Also allowing Ed Miliband to land a proper blow on the government:

Ed Miliband, the former Labour leader, said Johnson’s apparently unscripted intervention on the customs union was a sign of the government’s disarray. “With impeccable timing, Boris Johnson now says the UK is ‘probably’ leaving the customs union, thereby proving the Brexit chaos that No 10 is denying,” he said.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:55 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:58 pm

@citizenJA

Goodnight!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:11 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/t ... mg00000005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theresa May Responds To Leaked Brexit memo

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:20 pm

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said that Labour would not seek to prevent or delay Brexit, labeling those trying to do so as being "on the side of certain corporate elites".

pathetic.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:25 pm

citizenJA wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:I'm trying to convince myself that Labour could be positioning themselves as the guardian of the true spirit of brexit, ready to point out how Tories are betraying the peoples will..
but sadly it's not working.
Beverages may be needed.
There's a bottle of ale on the kitchen trolley I've been looking at with interest since coming back from a walk in the drizzle. I'm anxious, my head and eyes ache.

Nice.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:27 pm

https://diem25.org/what-is-diem25/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Diem25 - pan European democratic movement. Anyone know anything about it/them?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:29 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... iser-purge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Donald Trump’s transition to the White House appeared to be in disarray on Tuesday after the abrupt departure of a top national security adviser and amid continuing questions over the role of his three children and son-in-law.

Former Republican congressman Mike Rogers stepped down from the president-elect’s transition team without explanation, but one report attributed it to a “Stalinesque purge”.

If only spitting image were still on.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:31 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-la ... e-37989040" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour MP Cat Smith cleared of improper expenses claim

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:34 pm

Anger As Health Minister Refuses To Rule Out Future NHS Charges

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/a ... 8d11a6b1da" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ironic as I've been spending quite a lot of time trying to work out how to chose a private consultant to fix my hiatus hernia that is now giving me all kinds of problems, not least GORD which is either not responding to meds (H2RAs) or the meds (PPI) make me so ill with vertigo that I cant risk driving, and walking across the room is a hazard.
My Doctor tells me this operation is no longer available on the NHS so to me it sort of looks like we are already being charged by the back door, as in - pay private or suffer.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:35 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... is-johnson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Britain probably leaving EU customs union, says Boris Johnson
Foreign secretary makes revelation in interview with Czech newspaper despite PM’s hope of keeping negotiating stance under wraps

tremendous - in so many ways.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:43 pm

It's like being constantly observed by the three witches from Macbeth accompanied a bunch of their mates.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:49 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18986.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Theresa May dealt fresh blow as Supreme Court judge signals major delay on starting Brexit
Lady Brenda Hale said a “simple Act of Parliament” may not be sufficient to start the process, arguing a 'comprehensive replacement' of a 1972 Act may be needed

What a ####ing fiasco this whole ludicrous bunch of nonsense is.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:50 pm

Brexit vote 'not legally binding' says Supreme Court judge
Lady Hale is one of the Supreme Court judges hearing the Government's appeal against the legal challenge to Brexit next month

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:54 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 19111.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit vote driving anti-LGBT hate crime as victims told: ‘You’re next’
Charity records hate crimes explicitly mentioning Brexit vote alongside large rise

Yes it's a wonderful opportunity to turn the country into a hate-filled cesspit.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:59 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18451.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David Cameron 'charging £120,000 per hour for speeches on Brexit'
The fee equates to £2,000 per minute

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:06 pm

Slightly below what I charge,to be fair.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:14 pm

Ken Clarke: Brexit Cabinet in ‘Mickey Mouse’ land, too preoccupied with headlines
Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/pol ... t-reality/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:15 pm

Am thinking of charging say 200,000 per hour for public seething.
Why not?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:24 pm

Opposition Day Debate tomorrow

ESA /Social Care

http://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/ ... 1/16/Daily" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:27 pm

And Thursday Backbench ESA( partly)

http://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/ ... 1/17/Daily" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:30 pm

Another senior lawyer quits child abuse inquiry

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37994878" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is going on...??

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:34 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/a ... 3145f9ebd0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Human Rights Act Defence Adverts ‘Too Political’ For Train Commuters, Network Rail Decides

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:42 pm

Womble44 wrote:
yahyah wrote:@womble

It was to myself. A memo to self. For helping to create this mess by the way I voted in the leadership election in 2015 despite warnings from good souls like LetsSkip and many others who don't post on here any more.

You don't have to rise to it, or sit down to or stand to it. Ignore it.
No, it's a passive aggressive statement to say that people that disagree with you are fooled by a charlatan and need to learn the lessons that you have. If it's entirely for your consumption it does not need to be posted on a public forum.

Quite happy to be aggressive aggressive.

You were duped.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 12:06 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-la ... e-37989040

Labour MP Cat Smith cleared of improper expenses claim

The claims were made by blogger Guido Fawkes - real name Paul Staines - who alleged that "anomalies" raised questions about Ms Smith's spending.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 12:48 am

Yeah purposefully didn't mention his part in it and let people(if they didn't already know)find out themselves.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 12:53 am

Something weird has happened to the page(for me anyway),think something to do with hysterical laughter.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 1:10 am

Comment from Quaker Social Action on the articld about Funeral Paymentz/Social Fund

"Thank you everyone who is tweeting and commenting to share their stories. Every day we see people struggling with the confusing and lengthy process of applying for a Social Fund Funeral Payment. No one in any kind of work can apply - even people on a zero hours contract.

46% of applicants are rejected and responses often take more than a month, leaving people in financial limbo. Certain benefits that don't immediately qualify for help include Carers' Allowance, Disability Living Allowance and a Basic State Pension. It's a very lonely place to be.

The Funeral Payment was originally designed to cover basic funeral costs but today it leaves people with 63% of the bill. The fund has not increased but funeral costs went up 87% in a decade.

Our colleagues have the time and knowledge to quickly assess whether someone should apply, which is why 100% of people we supported recently made a successful claim. For those who cannot make a claim, our team work very hard to find other avenues of support.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 3:58 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A more succinct summing up of Farage, the cuddly face of a racist.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 4:23 am

Angela Merkel hints Brexit talks could include wriggle room on free movement

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ovement-eu

But on the finer detail of defining the free movement of people, she added: “I personally am of the view that we will have to discuss further with the [European] commission when this freedom of movement applies from.”
Merkel said that if, for example, someone came to Germany from eastern Europe and worked only for a short time but acquired a lifelong claim on welfare benefits, “then I see a question about which we must talk again. Free movement applies to me in the sense that the employee himself earns the money he needs for himself and his family in the other member state.”

I don't think that sounds like much wriggle room, even for the slipperiest of Tories.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 4:27 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... mmigration

Brexit camp tried to toxify debate before referendum, MPs hear
Campaigners accuse Boris Johnson and Arron Banks of fuelling rise in hate crimes by stoking tensions over immigration