Tuesday 15th November 2016

Post by **refitman** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:11 am

Oh dear! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 7:50 am

Ah Bernie, it could've been so different. I could listen to him all day. I wonder if there's any regret from Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:08 am

He sounded good. But would he have beaten Trump ?

This Newsweek article includes some of what the Republicans had in store to throw at Sanders if he'd won the nomination and looks at 'myths' [the article's word not mine] that the DNC are all powerful and that Saunders would have beaten Trump.

The writer, a respected ex New York Times journalist and investigative reporter, has seen the Republican party ''Opposition Research Book'' that was prepared on Sanders.
It was ''nearly two feet thick'' and there were videos that would have been used against him.

He says the Republicans would have ''torn him apart'' in a campaign for the White House, and quotes some of the dirt they would have thrown.
But we can have dreams. That seems all that's available at the moment.
Things will change, nothing stays the same but how long will it take ?

http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-demo ... ion-521044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:14 am

yahyah wrote:He sounded good. But would he have beaten Trump ?

This Newsweek article includes a list of what the Republicans had in store to throw at Saunders if he'd won the nomination and looks at 'myths' [the article's word not mine] that the DNC are all powerful and that Saunders would have beaten Trump.

The writer, a respected ex New York Times journalist and investigative reporter, has seen the Republican party ''Opposition Research Book'' that was prepared on Saunders.
It was ''nearly two feet thick'' and there were videos that would have been used against him.

He says the Republicans would have Saunders ''torn him apart'' in a campaign for the White House, and quotes some of the dirt they would have thrown.
But we can have dreams. That seems all that's available at the moment.

http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-demo ... ion-521044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree, I'm afraid. What we're seeing is, in part, the right talking up Sanders during the primaries as a candidate because they would rather have had him than Clinton - an independent socialist in Congress, not even a liberal democrat - and then talking him up afterwards as just another way to put the opposition down. Although, standard disclaimer, this is all speculation, and I'm not arguing for a moment against Sanders and the things he says.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:18 am

Bonnylad wrote:Oh dear! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The note, leaked to the Times and said to be dated 7 November, also claimed that “no common strategy has emerged” on Brexit between departments despite extended debate among the permanent secretaries who head Whitehall departments.

No doubt it's all subterfuge, the aim is to not let the enemy* know your strategy, so have different groups discussing different strategies, trust no-one, so nobody can leak the one true plan.
(*johhny foreigner, MPs, bremainers/bremoaners, Larry the cat, pick your choice.)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:19 am

Sorry, I know he's Sanders not Saunders. Just a bit early in the morning.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:20 am

I like Sanders. His out there policies like free health care. I'm not saying he would have won. Two things are clear.
Number 1. DWS ensured the DNC united behind the coronation of Clinton and attacked Sanders.
Number 2. Clinton lost.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:31 am

The article says the Republicans would have used his policy for universal health care against him because it failed and collapsed because of massive costs when tried in his home state.

Another of their attacks on him would have been that he co-sponsored a bill to ship nuclear waste from Vermont to a ''poor Hispanic community'' in Texas and dump it there. That seems odd for someone with his credentials.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:54 am

Google and Facebook closing the stable door a lot too late.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/techn ... &smtyp=cur" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CNN ran a report on fake news sites. One came from Asia and had a web address very similar to the ABC News website that it was pretending to be.
Funny how many of them were anti-Clinton. A complete coincidence no doubt.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:55 am

I'll repeat what I said before. It's impossible to know whether or not Sanders would have won. It was all too easy to predict that Clinton could lose. And she did.

The one thing we do know is that Trump's positioning of himself as an outsider would have been at least partly negated by Sanders.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 8:56 am

Shocked. Astonished. Etc.

'There is no plan' for Brexit, leaked memo says - BBC News
https://apple.news/AkxhsNlUgTZi6ORyMWohMtA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:01 am

Thought the following was interesting, but overlooked it at first because of misleading headline.

Leaked memo also reveals view that Liam Fox is trying to threaten other EU states over Britain’s access to single market

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... the-assets

The meeting also heard that the international trade secretary, Liam Fox, had told Irish ministers that if the UK was debarred from access to the EU single market, countries with free trade agreements with the bloc such as South Korea could sue Brussels for depriving them of full access to the European market. It is likely to be seen as significant that Fox is making what appears to be a threat to other EU states over the UK’s access to the single market.[/URL]

Also contains some hints on negotiation aims:

The memo then goes into wider aspects of the negotiations, and assumes the UK will want a future economic relationship with the EU similar to its present one. It says: “It will be important to identify those member states that, like Ireland, are likely to favour a future status for the UK as close as possible to the current arrangements, and those member states which might not be unduly concerned if a hard Brexit were to happen.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:07 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Shocked. Astonished. Etc.

'There is no plan' for Brexit, leaked memo says - BBC News
https://apple.news/AkxhsNlUgTZi6ORyMWohMtA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And on that...

Alex Thomson
‏@AlexBThomson
@Law_and_policy @MissLauraMarcus So DfExEU is basically Davis in an empty room staring at a blank sheet of paper?
#brexit

Morning all.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:20 am

I did like this one about Trump supporters...

The re-jerminator ‏@JermHimselfish Nov 13

"Just accept it, you lost, now get over it" said the person waving a confederate flag

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:21 am

I'm sure that the paper has something on it... "Brexit means Brexit" for a start - and an end - to it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:30 am

This article gives a flavour of the sentiment Trump was tapping into and why Sanders being an "outsider" probably wouldn't have made much difference:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dorian-de ... 99411.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's about the effects of equality. A while back there was an EU ruling that said charging men more for their car insurance solely because of their gender was discriminatory. The upshot of this ruling wasn't just lower car insurance policies for men, but higher car insurance prices for women. In the same way, for ethnic minorities to have an equal chance at jobs, it means some white folk have to give way. For working class folks to go to college, middle class folks have to miss out. Americans are waking up to the swindle that is the 'American Dream', the idea that everyone has the opportunity to 'make it'. Yes, everyone has the opportunity, just not everybody at the same time. So yes, it's about the people who feel left behind, but it's also, deep down, about our subconscious understanding of the finite nature of resources. Our understanding that for people elsewhere to enjoy a better standard of living, ours probably has to stay the same, at the very least, if not worsen. Indeed West Germany lived through the embodiment of this when the country was re-unified with East Germany, with the West having to stand still in terms of standard of living in order to allow the East to catch up to some degree and achieve a better equality. As someone here pointed out (I can't remember who, I'm afraid) the very poorest who turned out to vote in the US were more likely to vote for Hillary than Trump. This makes me think the people who feel "left behind" are people who have or have had a modestly OK standard of living who haven't seen that standard improve in recent years and feel it's under threat from progressive politics that improve the lot of the poorest, such as immigrants and ethnic minorities, at their expense.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:32 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:I'm sure that the paper has something on it... "Brexit means Brexit" for a start - and an end - to it.

Yes, that's at the top of the page underlined twice and with an exclamation mark.

Davis is now sitting sucking his pencil and looking thoughtfully at the blank white space underneath.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:41 am

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... n-abortion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can Donald Trump really ban abortion

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:46 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:I'll repeat what I said before. It's impossible to know whether or not Sanders would have won. It was all too easy to predict that Clinton could lose. And she did.

The one thing we do know is that Trump's positioning of himself as an outsider would have been at least partly negated by Sanders.

This is an endlessly circular argument and it's all speculation, I know. But I don't believe anything would have stopped Trump running as the outsider, and I don't believe the right would have ever stopped shouting socialist. I'm sure there were a lot of more idealistic (not said snidely at all) voters who couldn't summon any enthusiasm for Clinton. In the same way I'm also sure there are a lot of more conservative democrats who never would have voted for Sanders. It is every bit as easy to predict that Sanders would lose, and he would have done. Maybe not for exactly the same reasons as Clinton, but still.

In any event, the head of Breitbart is going to be the presidents chief policy adviser - we are living in a world beyond sense or parody.

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:47 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... n-abortion

Can Donald Trump really ban abortion

He can appoint judges who will overturn Roe-v- Wade and remove any federal protection for reproductive rights, he can give powers to make laws back to the states (either specifically or by just doing nothing), and they can ban provision and criminalise women who go elsewhere.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:48 am

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/14/polit ... on-bannon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

White nationalists see advocate in Steve Bannon who will hold Trump to his campaign promises

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:55 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37984479" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Prison officers halt work over safety fears, union says

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:55 am

adam wrote:
HindleA wrote:http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... n-abortion

Can Donald Trump really ban abortion
He can appoint judges who will overturn Roe-v- Wade and remove any federal protection for reproductive rights, he can give powers to make laws back to the states (either specifically or by just doing nothing), and they can ban provision and criminalise women who go elsewhere.

There's the whole work provided insurance excluding abortion due to the company's moral position on top.

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 9:56 am

This is good from Aditra Chakrabortty in the Guardian:-

Rust-belt romantics don’t get it: the middle class is being wiped out too

Put bluntly, if you think that what has happened to the advanced countries’ working classes – how over four decades they have sunk from semi-prosperity into pauperism – was a one-off event driven by the magical, unanswerable forces of globalisation, then you’ve missed the point. This is a process that’s swallowing up the middle classes too. Indeed, it’s happening now. And the political implications will, I think, make Trump come to seem as benevolent as a greasepaint baddie at a Christmas panto.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:03 am

The tweet says it for me. Except to add that I am still capable, in spite of everything, of being astonished by the shamelessness of the right-wing press:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:04 am

Fairweather friends. You're getting on peachy then they just stop recognising you with no warning...

Government 'doesn't recognise' Brexit memo - BBC News
https://apple.news/AkxhsNlUgTZi6ORyMWohMtA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:28 am

There's a line that stands out from the graun's piece on Brietbart:-

Delingpole has been described as a “figure of fun”

I think we need to be clear that there are no longer any figures of fun.

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:35 am

This is good too

In the age of Trump, why bother teaching students to argue logically?

As educators have we been getting things hopelessly wrong? Maybe, if one of my students writes “social cohesion means social cohesion” in this latest essay, I should put a hearty tick in the margin?

edit - correct link, sorry.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:38 am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/eco ... stics-cpih" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Move to new UK inflation measure sparks controversy
Views divided over decision by Office for National Statistics to shift focus to CPIH, which includes housing costs

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 10:45 am

Good morfternoon.

Given who is the President-elect of the USA and who he has around him , it is wrong to see British relations with the USA purely through the prism of "Brexit". I believe that there is more at stake. And I'm sure Nigel Farage knows this full well. "Brexit" is just a happy and convenient fig-leaf for him and "we" are being too easily distracted.

Edited to add -

I don't mean that Nigel Farage knows (or cares) what I think. Guardian-standard sentence structure. Sorry.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:21 am

adam wrote:This is good from Aditra Chakrabortty in the Guardian:-

Rust-belt romantics don’t get it: the middle class is being wiped out too

Put bluntly, if you think that what has happened to the advanced countries’ working classes – how over four decades they have sunk from semi-prosperity into pauperism – was a one-off event driven by the magical, unanswerable forces of globalisation, then you’ve missed the point. This is a process that’s swallowing up the middle classes too. Indeed, it’s happening now. And the political implications will, I think, make Trump come to seem as benevolent as a greasepaint baddie at a Christmas panto.

If the choice ends up being between socialism or barbarism, then both history and the present suggests that a depressing number of "liberal" types will choose barbarism.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:37 am

Peter Walker
Peter Walker – Verified account ‏@peterwalker99

A govt that can't house or feed people or stop kids living in poverty "does not deserve to exist", John McDonnell says.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:44 am

adam wrote:There's a line that stands out from the graun's piece on Brietbart:-

Delingpole has been described as a “figure of fun”
I think we need to be clear that there are no longer any figures of fun.

Or to put it another way, there are plenty of people who *should* be "figures of fun" but are currently anything but.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:44 am

Brexit weekly briefing: how does Trump's win affect UK's EU exit plan? - the guardian
https://apple.news/AnY3yjQl3Tp-_R0bTwpcHEQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Idly wonders, will it make them start to have one?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:45 am

Delingpole isn't a figure of fun. He's a figure of thoroughly deserved ridicule. The man makes Monckton seem intelligent.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:47 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:If the choice ends up being between socialism or barbarism, then both history and the present suggests that a depressing number of "liberal" types will choose barbarism.

It's the moderate way.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:47 am

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1532119 ... xit-and-do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour Press
The Government are in a mess over Brexit and do not have a plan - Starmer

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:50 am

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2016/11/cp ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CPI shows retailers resisting exchange rate pressures – for now

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:55 am

The KKK And Nazis Are Queuing Up To Praise Nigel Farage’s ‘Best Mate’ Steve Bannon - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/AJxI5quIWQjuuqqmaeXTvyw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, one good bit of news. Never again will Farage be able to claim he isn't a racist, anti-Semitic shithead of the worst order.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:56 am

Re the above discussion - yes, Sanders might not have won (one possible factor not mentioned is his age - at 75 even older than Clinton/Trump)

But this does not take away from HRC being a deeply flawed candidate whose campaign exacerbated her shortcomings rather than easing them.

And some of the stuff coming out now about the strategic missteps of her team is genuinely eye-popping.

Ultimately, it comes back to the vast and unjustified sense of entitlement a certain type of "liberal centrist" possesses both in the US and elsewhere (very much including here)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:57 am

HindleA wrote:http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2016/11/cp ... um=twitter

CPI shows retailers resisting exchange rate pressures – for now

Tescos more so than Sainsbury's, in my recent experience. With certain brands seemingly disappearing altogether, which is one way of avoiding putting the price up, I suppose.

Who benefits? Who ends up with the extra money? Not the workers in the factory where these goods originate from that's for sure. The main funders of the leave campaign were hedge funds. I'm sure they're doing very nicely out of it already. British voters are a bunch of mugs.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 11:59 am

To use a very tortured film analogy, they took a knife to a gun fight and gave it to the accountant.

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:06 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:To use a very tortured film analogy, they took a knife to a gun fight and gave it to the accountant.

But not to The Accountant.

[youtube]DBfsgcswlYQ[/youtube]

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:11 pm

Not sure how much more obvious the danger can get:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:14 pm

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani emerges as favourite for Trump's Secretary of State - The Independent
https://apple.news/AL17T2OEbRxuCBzEHCop9Sw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The arse-licking continues to pay off.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:15 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... eral-costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Informed by an adviser that Department for Work & Pensions (DWP) rules meant that as her daughter had not reached 24 weeks gestation, or taken a breath, she was classified as “medical waste” in bureaucratic terms."

So compassionate,brings tears to my eyes.

Post by **adam** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:17 pm

This is a very good longer piece that goes in detail through a lot of what I've been thinking about Trump's likely economic plans

Joseph Stiglitz: What the US economy needs from Donald Trump

Um... spoiler? This is the final paragraph.

My very cloudy crystal ball shows a rewriting of the rules, but not to correct the grave mistakes of the Reagan revolution, a milestone on the sordid journey that left so many behind. Rather, the new rules will make the situation worse, excluding even more people from the American dream.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:19 pm

The public servants who run the bank are drawn from the very top of the global talent pool. We will not allow a cabinet drawn from the dregs of a Tory government to place the blame for their failures on the bank.

Ouch. Part of McDonnell's speech.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:24 pm

Philip Hammond will have to admit that the Conservatives have failed in every task they set themselves.

They failed to bring the deficit under control. It was supposed to have been eliminated by 2015.

They failed to bring down the government’s debt. It’s now 1.7 trillion.

They failed to restore wages, they failed on productivity, they failed on investment.

They failed because at every step of the way there was a Conservative Chancellor who put rhetoric ahead of the hard economic facts.

He chose austerity, when he could have chosen investment ...

Worst of all, it is an economy where after all the sacrifices of spending cuts and stagnant wages and zero hour contracts - the government debt burden continues to rise and the government deficit remains stubbornly high.

There is no other way to say it. Those sacrifices were made in vain.

If only someone was saying this as forcefully before 2015, not after.