Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th November 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:30 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... democratic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Trump’s victory and the risk of far-right governments in the Netherlands and France make Angela Merkel a pivotal figure for the survival of democratic values

Yes - if only platforms like the Guardian and BBC hadn't helped fuel it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 2:42 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38019806" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Secret film exposes care home failures

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 4:10 am

The same people who wear shirts that read “fuck your feelings,” and rail against “political correctness” seem to believe that there should be no social consequences for their vote. I keep hearing calls for empathy and healing, civility and polite discourse. As if supporting a man who would fill his administration with white nationalists and misogynists is something to simply agree to disagree on.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... safe-space" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Being socially ostracized for supporting Trump is not an infringement of your rights, it’s a reasonable response by those of us who are disgusted, anxious, and afraid. I was recently accused by a writer of “vote shaming” – but there’s nothing wrong with being made to feel ashamed for doing something shameful.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 4:16 am

Donald Trump was recently asked whether he regretted the misogyny and racism of his campaign. He replied: “No, I won.”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... l-politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His many noxious outpourings on the campaign trail were not said in spite of the fact that they would cause widespread revulsion. They were calculated to elicit a hot response from both his zealots and opponents and by doing so generate massive amounts of media coverage. A similar shock-and-horrify strategy was employed by elements of the Leave campaign during the Brexit referendum. Arron Banks, friend and financier of Nigel Farage and one of the party who were recently received at Trump Tower, has published his account of their battle plan for the referendum campaign. “The more outrageous we are, the more attention we’ll get. The more attention we get, the more outrageous we’ll be.”

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 4:18 am

All boils down to (for the left):

Do we want to be right - or do we want to win?

Looking at the dangerously divisive instincts of the left, it's clear we either don't really understand the world; or we don't really want to win.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 4:20 am

The overarching error was to assume that the arc of history was bent irreversibly in the direction of enlightenment, internationalism, tolerance and liberty. Now they should know better. A very old lesson must be learnt afresh. In politics, there are no final victories.

From the Rawn article linked above.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 6:14 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... age-le-pen

European leaders have come to a 27-nation consensus that a “hard Brexit” is likely to be the only way to see off future populist insurgencies, which could lead to the break-up of the
European Union .

Never enter an arse kicking contest against a 54 legged opponent.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 9:13 am

Good morfternoon.

Thanks to tinyclanger2 and tinybgoat for all the links.

And depressing to read, in today's press, about Nigel Farage relishing the prospect of everyone being at each others' throats, and the prospect of a Marine Le Pen victory. He'll probably never admit it, but he's a war-monger, isn't he? Destructive, immature git.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 9:23 am

Well, I never...

Higher borrowing is the key to Philip Hammond’s Autumn Statement

https://www.ft.com/content/c0cad6fa-ac1 ... 378e4fef24

Mr Hammond’s way out is to accept the higher borrowing figures for 2017 and subsequent years. If the forecasts are underestimating revenue, there is no harm in pursuing an apparent “fiscal expansion”. He may also wish to raise the deficit targets. Mr Hammond has already stated that he will relax the tough reduction targets of George Osborne, his predecessor. This makes sense — the last chancellor did not hit his targets in the last parliament and was unlikely to hit them in this one either.

and

Some may object to more borrowing and wish to remain wedded to Mr Osborne’s “austerity” targets. I do not share their fears. Look at the net state debt. Now the UK authorities have decided to buy up £435bn of it, Britain owes this money to itself. The government solemnly goes through the ritual of paying itself interest on its own debt and then crediting back the money. If I had bought up my own mortgage, I would regard it as cancelled.

Never thought I'd see the day when I agreed with John Redwood. Pretty much what Labour was advocating at the last election but which was rubbished. Right then and right now.

We're through the looking-glass when I can agree with Peter Bone and John redwood inside of two days!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 9:32 am

Yes thanks for the links - just read Rawnsley.

Two things I continually think about when reading analyses like these.

Firstly there is barely anyone left who can remember the first world war and nobody under 75 who can recall the second ( though we would do well to listen to those who still can). This is tremendously dangerous for areas of the world where everyone has lived their lives essentially in peace. Never again loses its resonance.

Second, Marx would have recognised these problems very clearly. We have allowed capital to be too unfettered for anyone's good. There are huge numbers of people who feel they are not getting their fair share, that they are being exploited.

As Rawnsley says we've been here before. And it didn't end well.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 10:02 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Yes thanks for the links - just read Rawnsley.

Two things I continually think about when reading analyses like these.

Firstly there is barely anyone left who can remember the first world war and nobody under 75 who can recall the second ( though we would do well to listen to those who still can). This is tremendously dangerous for areas of the world where everyone has lived their lives essentially in peace. Never again loses its resonance.

Second, Marx would have recognised these problems very clearly. We have allowed capital to be too unfettered for anyone's good. There are huge numbers of people who feel they are not getting their fair share, that they are being exploited.

As Rawnsley says we've been here before. And it didn't end well.

Seconded, thanked, agreed with an' stuff an' that an' all.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 10:21 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Yes thanks for the links - just read Rawnsley.

Two things I continually think about when reading analyses like these.

Firstly there is barely anyone left who can remember the first world war and nobody under 75 who can recall the second ( though we would do well to listen to those who still can). This is tremendously dangerous for areas of the world where everyone has lived their lives essentially in peace. Never again loses its resonance.

Second, Marx would have recognised these problems very clearly. We have allowed capital to be too unfettered for anyone's good. There are huge numbers of people who feel they are not getting their fair share, that they are being exploited.

As Rawnsley says we've been here before. And it didn't end well.

Brexit voters were older, more likely to own their own home, more likely to be retired. They may be people who feel they have been left behind, but I'm not sure they are necessarily the worst off in a financial sense. The people who haven't got their fair share are surely younger people who haven't had the opportunities to buy a home and start a family like the older generation had and yet young people voted overwhelmingly for remain. I see a divide based more on memories of the war, making older people understandably more suspicious of Europe. I see a divide between people who have had positive experiences of multiculturalism in urban areas and people who have had negative experiences of immigration in areas where there has been too much in too short a time plus people who haven't experienced immigration much at all who are worried about the unknown. Many of the articles about the demographics of Brexit voters seem to concentrate on regions, which types of region voted out, rather than which individuals, which I find frustrating, especially as few statistics are put in the context of turnout. That is to say, although 64% of DEs voted leave, how many DEs voted? This is harder to find, but I have read that turnout wasn't high for this group. Which fits with one of the first things I read about demographics that said Brexit voters were more likely to be living in the south and more likely to be on above average income. I think the idea of Brexit voters being those "left behind" by neo-liberalism ignores far too many Brexit voters who, far from left behind, are comfortably off.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 10:32 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... exit-polls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Broken down by income bracket, 52% of voters earning less than $50,000 a year – who make up 36% of the electorate – voted for Clinton, and 41% for Trump.

But among the 64% of American voters who earn more than $50,000 a year, 49% chose Trump, and 47% Clinton.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 10:34 am

Very old people with genuine memories of WW2 (aged 80 and over, basically) were significantly more likely to support staying in the EU than the 65-80 age group.

(who were easily the most pro-Brexit section of the population)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 10:44 am

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... exit-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It’s NOT the economy, stupid: Brexit as a story of personal values

I have linked these articles, not because I think they are more right, but because they illustrate there are different potential motivations behind Brexit and Trump success. I'm trying to emphasise the importance of keeping all things in mind, rather than trying to debunk the "left behind" narrative which is doubtlessly true, but to my mind is only one piece in a much bigger puzzle.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Very old people with genuine memories of WW2 (aged 80 and over, basically) were significantly more likely to support staying in the EU than the 65-80 age group.

(who were easily the most pro-Brexit section of the population)

The 65-80 age group surely includes people most likely to have lost a father or other relative in the war, though. Plus older people in general will have been more affected by the cold war propaganda leading to suspicion of Eastern Europeans whereas my age group are more likely to be influenced by Perestroika and the fall of the iron curtain.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 11:20 am

Martin Rowson on the Brexit grand tour – cartoon

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... it-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 11:27 am

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Yes thanks for the links - just read Rawnsley.

Two things I continually think about when reading analyses like these.

Firstly there is barely anyone left who can remember the first world war and nobody under 75 who can recall the second ( though we would do well to listen to those who still can). This is tremendously dangerous for areas of the world where everyone has lived their lives essentially in peace. Never again loses its resonance.

Second, Marx would have recognised these problems very clearly. We have allowed capital to be too unfettered for anyone's good. There are huge numbers of people who feel they are not getting their fair share, that they are being exploited.

As Rawnsley says we've been here before. And it didn't end well.
Brexit voters were older, more likely to own their own home, more likely to be retired. They may be people who feel they have been left behind, but I'm not sure they are necessarily the worst off in a financial sense. The people who haven't got their fair share are surely younger people who haven't had the opportunities to buy a home and start a family like the older generation had and yet young people voted overwhelmingly for remain. I see a divide based more on memories of the war, making older people understandably more suspicious of Europe. I see a divide between people who have had positive experiences of multiculturalism in urban areas and people who have had negative experiences of immigration in areas where there has been too much in too short a time plus people who haven't experienced immigration much at all who are worried about the unknown. Many of the articles about the demographics of Brexit voters seem to concentrate on regions, which types of region voted out, rather than which individuals, which I find frustrating, especially as few statistics are put in the context of turnout. That is to say, although 64% of DEs voted leave, how many DEs voted? This is harder to find, but I have read that turnout wasn't high for this group. Which fits with one of the first things I read about demographics that said Brexit voters were more likely to be living in the south and more likely to be on above average income. I think the idea of Brexit voters being those "left behind" by neo-liberalism ignores far too many Brexit voters who, far from left behind, are comfortably off.

Thanks for this. I agree with much of what you say and of course we can never know who actually voted for Brexit. Even if we knew it would probably make no sense, because sweeping changes round the world will rarely be provoked by a single issue.

Yes I know many older folk will have voted for Brexit. But I wonder if we listen enough to those who are now really old. There is nobody under the age of 92 now who voted for Attlee in 1945. That's a sobering thought.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 11:28 am

Sorry I took ages to post the last one and Willow & AK have moved the conversation on since

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 11:30 am

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Very old people with genuine memories of WW2 (aged 80 and over, basically) were significantly more likely to support staying in the EU than the 65-80 age group.

(who were easily the most pro-Brexit section of the population)
The 65-80 age group surely includes people most likely to have lost a father or other relative in the war, though. Plus older people in general will have been more affected by the cold war propaganda leading to suspicion of Eastern Europeans whereas my age group are more likely to be influenced by Perestroika and the fall of the iron curtain.

But even if you are 80, you were only 3 at the outbreak of war and only 9 when Attlee was elected.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 11:43 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Very old people with genuine memories of WW2 (aged 80 and over, basically) were significantly more likely to support staying in the EU than the 65-80 age group.

(who were easily the most pro-Brexit section of the population)
The 65-80 age group surely includes people most likely to have lost a father or other relative in the war, though. Plus older people in general will have been more affected by the cold war propaganda leading to suspicion of Eastern Europeans whereas my age group are more likely to be influenced by Perestroika and the fall of the iron curtain.
But even if you are 80, you were only 3 at the outbreak of war and only 9 when Attlee was elected.

People born in and around 1940 (in their mid-seventies now) would have been born to fathers who were of an age to be called up. Many weren't demobbed until well after the war leaving a generation raised with an absent dad, even those whose fathers survived the war and came back. They then came of age during the 1950s and 1960s at the height of the cold war and the Cuban Missile Crisis. As you say, this is a very different generation to the post-war generation that elected Attlee, but one that lived very much in the shadow of WW2 and the division of Europe that followed it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 11:57 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/opini ... &smtyp=cur" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An Italian perspective on how to defeat Donald Trump.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:04 pm

Yes, as I have said before the comparison between Berlusconi and Trump stands up very well IMO.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:08 pm

Willow904 wrote:http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... exit-vote/

It’s NOT the economy, stupid: Brexit as a story of personal values
I have linked these articles, not because I think they are more right, but because they illustrate there are different potential motivations behind Brexit and Trump success. I'm trying to emphasise the importance of keeping all things in mind, rather than trying to debunk the "left behind" narrative which is doubtlessly true, but to my mind is only one piece in a much bigger puzzle.

Interesting, I found it hard to follow the article, but(assuming I've not misread it) am distrustful of some of the figures he's using. The figures seem more reasonable when they show a stronger correlation, such as supporting brexit & the death penalty, I would be tempted to explain that as showing influence from right wing propaganda over the last decade or more.
The figures showing a low correlation such as area lived in are a (I think ) a bit suspect. If we know the area someone is from & we know what the vote was in that area, then we should be able to presume they voted with the majority & get a higher correlation than is showing in the table.

edited to correct interesting spelling.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:08 pm

Willow904 wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/opini ... &smtyp=cur

An Italian perspective on how to defeat Donald Trump.

It's a tenable strategy and a quite persuasive one - but it's based on the supposition that Donald Trump will even try to enact some of the more useful things that he's declared he intends doing.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:16 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/opini ... &smtyp=cur

An Italian perspective on how to defeat Donald Trump.
It's a tenable strategy and a quite persuasive one - but it's based on the supposition that Donald Trump will even try to enact some of the more useful things that he's declared he intends doing.

I think the idea is to call Trump's bluff, although I thought it a pretty tricky strategy too.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:31 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
Willow904 wrote:http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... exit-vote/

It’s NOT the economy, stupid: Brexit as a story of personal values
I have linked these articles, not because I think they are more right, but because they illustrate there are different potential motivations behind Brexit and Trump success. I'm trying to emphasise the importance of keeping all things in mind, rather than trying to debunk the "left behind" narrative which is doubtlessly true, but to my mind is only one piece in a much bigger puzzle.
IInterestinh, I found it hard to follow the article, but(assuming I've not misread it) am distrustful of some of the figures he's using. The figures seem more reasonable when they show a stronger correlation, such as supporting brexit & the death penalty, I would be tempted to explain that as showing influence from right wing propaganda over the last decade or more.
The figures showing a low correlation such as area lived in are a (I think ) a bit suspect. If we know the area someone is from & we know what the vote was in that area, then we should be able to presume they voted with the majority & get a higher correlation than is showing in the table.

I wonder what the area someone lives in tells you about them, though. A lot of young graduates move to London to work, a lot of people retire to Cornwall. Perhaps people who remain in unemployment hotspots are more attached to their birthplace than those who move away? I don't know. What I do know is that there are leave and remain voters living in all parts of the country. There are surely more factors at play than economic geography. The very stark contrast between young and old suggests it's about more than where you live.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:33 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... g-families" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

philip-hammond-autumn-statement-dashes-hopes-of-big-windfalls-struggling-families

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:37 pm

This is a bit different

https://theconversation.com/how-swedish ... -day-68114" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how-swedish-literature-reflects-the-benefits-of-a-shorter-working-day

A good read.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:41 pm

tinybgoat wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... age-le-pen

European leaders have come to a 27-nation consensus that a “hard Brexit” is likely to be the only way to see off future populist insurgencies, which could lead to the break-up of the
European Union .
Never enter an arse kicking contest against a 54 legged opponent.

It's entirely appropriate the EU respond this way
Appropriate and rational referendums and elections aren't lately winning
And Tories love this, gives them more irrational support boost
Look at nasty fascist EU countries bullying the UK just for wanting freedom

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:50 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Thanks to tinyclanger2 and tinybgoat for all the links.

And depressing to read, in today's press, about Nigel Farage relishing the prospect of everyone being at each others' throats, and the prospect of a Marine Le Pen victory. He'll probably never admit it, but he's a war-monger, isn't he? Destructive, immature git.

He'll thank you kindly for making the observation. Really.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:51 pm

I think Alex sums up the whole "showing hand" business, (you have to go in the link to read it, as I can't do the copy thing)
Alex AndreouVerified account
‏@sturdyAlex
Tired of the unchallenged narrative that the gov't is being forced to "show its hand" during #Brexit negotiations. It's utter nonsense.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:01 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:I think Alex sums up the whole "showing hand" business, (you have to go in the link to read it, as I can't do the copy thing)
Alex AndreouVerified account
‏@sturdyAlex
Tired of the unchallenged narrative that the gov't is being forced to "show its hand" during #Brexit negotiations. It's utter nonsense.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exactly. As I was saying the other day, they've got to let the others into the "secret" sooner or later. The Government's stance is just counter-productive posturing at best, and total cluelessness (more likely) at worst.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:08 pm

Willow904 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
Willow904 wrote:http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... exit-vote/
I have linked these articles, not because I think they are more right, but because they illustrate there are different potential motivations behind Brexit and Trump success. I'm trying to emphasise the importance of keeping all things in mind, rather than trying to debunk the "left behind" narrative which is doubtlessly true, but to my mind is only one piece in a much bigger puzzle.
IInterestinh, I found it hard to follow the article, but(assuming I've not misread it) am distrustful of some of the figures he's using. The figures seem more reasonable when they show a stronger correlation, such as supporting brexit & the death penalty, I would be tempted to explain that as showing influence from right wing propaganda over the last decade or more.
The figures showing a low correlation such as area lived in are a (I think ) a bit suspect. If we know the area someone is from & we know what the vote was in that area, then we should be able to presume they voted with the majority & get a higher correlation than is showing in the table.
I wonder what the area someone lives in tells you about them, though. A lot of young graduates move to London to work, a lot of people retire to Cornwall. Perhaps people who remain in unemployment hotspots are more attached to their birthplace than those who move away? I don't know. What I do know is that there are leave and remain voters living in all parts of the country. There are surely more factors at play than economic geography. The very stark contrast between young and old suggests it's about more than where you live.

UK Parliamentary EU referendum voter results and analysis reports (of which I've posted only one of many well-documented reports below)

House of Commons Library
Analysis of the EU Referendum results 2016
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... y/CBP-7639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm putting this here because it's easy to read, the information is all found on the same website and gives good detail supported by documented evidence.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:17 pm

Labour backs Tory income tax cut for top 15 per cent of earners
The 40p tax rate threshold cut was pledged in the Conservative manifesto

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 28111.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has John McDonnell got a clue what he is talking about - from Britex to the economy he just seems to delight in contradicting Labour policy.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:20 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/opini ... &smtyp=cur

An Italian perspective on how to defeat Donald Trump.
It's a tenable strategy and a quite persuasive one - but it's based on the supposition that Donald Trump will even try to enact some of the more useful things that he's declared he intends doing.
I think the idea is to call Trump's bluff, although I thought it a pretty tricky strategy too.

A side note
Though I know little about contemporary Italian politics, the recent commentary from business and citizens in Italy regarding UK/EU
relations is wonderful, in my opinion. Anecdotal, I know, but I sure enjoyed reading their happy, non-aggressive observations.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:29 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Preference to manage the public finances:
T. May & P. Hammond: 44%
J. Corbyn & J. McDonnell: 18%
(via Opinium / 15 - 18 Nov)

This is still the big problem isn't it? I'm not sure Corbyn & McDonnell would be my first choices. But May and Hammond. Really?

Labour will pay for a long time to come for not challenging Osborne's narrative in the aftermath of 2010.
I don't believe it has anything to do with who's leading Labour; the serfs still bow to the superiority of the toffs. That's our fundamental problem.

Brown and Alistair Darling had leads over the Tories on economic management. It was up to a 30 point lead during their incumbency as PM & Shadow Chancellor.

So the serfs don't always tug their forelocks to the Tories.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:35 pm

yahyah wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Preference to manage the public finances:
T. May & P. Hammond: 44%
J. Corbyn & J. McDonnell: 18%
(via Opinium / 15 - 18 Nov)

This is still the big problem isn't it? I'm not sure Corbyn & McDonnell would be my first choices. But May and Hammond. Really?

Labour will pay for a long time to come for not challenging Osborne's narrative in the aftermath of 2010.
I don't believe it has anything to do with who's leading Labour; the serfs still bow to the superiority of the toffs. That's our fundamental problem.

Brown and Alistair Darling had leads over the Tories on economic management. It was up to a 30 point lead during their incumbency as PM & Shadow Chancellor.

So the serfs don't always tug their forelocks to the Tories.

What would have happened if they had really taken the bankers to task?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:41 pm

yahyah wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Preference to manage the public finances:
T. May & P. Hammond: 44%
J. Corbyn & J. McDonnell: 18%
(via Opinium / 15 - 18 Nov)

This is still the big problem isn't it? I'm not sure Corbyn & McDonnell would be my first choices. But May and Hammond. Really?

Labour will pay for a long time to come for not challenging Osborne's narrative in the aftermath of 2010.
I don't believe it has anything to do with who's leading Labour; the serfs still bow to the superiority of the toffs. That's our fundamental problem.

Brown and Alistair Darling had leads over the Tories on economic management. It was up to a 30 point lead during their incumbency as PM & Shadow Chancellor.

So the serfs don't always tug their forelocks to the Tories.

GB and AD lost the subsequent election in case you've forgotten.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:41 pm

I don't disagree with that Paul. It was frustrating to live through that.
My point was that people don't always credit the Tories as the best economically.

I see you've posted some polling results.
Very brave, last time I posted one about Brexit I got told I had to learn to ignore polls.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:44 pm

yahyah wrote:I don't disagree with that Paul. It was frustrating to live through that.
My point was that people don't always credit the Tories as the best economically.

I see you've posted some polling results.
Very brave, last time I posted one about Brexit I got told I had to learn to ignore polls.

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all.

It saddens me that for some reason Brown decided not to really go for the bankers while he still had that economic credibility. He could have done. Just imagine if there had been high profile court cases involving dodgy bankers.

I'm sure he felt he was doing the right thing, but with hindsight he allowed the alternative narrative about Labour's mess to emerge.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:45 pm

@FOik

How could I forget that ? What is your point ?

It's even more depressing that they got booted out when they had had actually gained public confidence at some points along the way.

Are we to pretend that Labour never managed to achieve good percentages for economic competence ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:53 pm

Talking of economic competence and popularity have just watched the video of Ed Balls on Strictly last night. Seems like he's got through yet again.

Lots of women voting for him no doubt. He has that twinkle in his eye.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 1:57 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Labour backs Tory income tax cut for top 15 per cent of earners
The 40p tax rate threshold cut was pledged in the Conservative manifesto

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 28111.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has John McDonnell got a clue what he is talking about - from Britex to the economy he just seems to delight in contradicting Labour policy.

Well it's not going to win my vote. The 40% bracket is the very demographic George Osborne ensured felt zero effects of austerity, they were actually net gainers during the Coalition, especially those not claiming child benefit. Why are they first in the queue now austerity is being abandoned? Surely IDS was right that ESA and Universal Credit were only being cut in order to fund this tax cut? If the Tories hadn't promised this and corporate tax cuts, some of their spending cuts would never have been necesssry in the first place.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 2:04 pm

So much for learning lessons about opposing the Tories when in opposition. It doesn't even matter half the time what the policies are, people forget the details, they just remember the party opposing and if they ever get sick of the Tories they'll turn to the party they perceive as being in disagreement with them, which once again won't be Labour.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 2:05 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
yahyah wrote:I don't disagree with that Paul. It was frustrating to live through that.
My point was that people don't always credit the Tories as the best economically.

I see you've posted some polling results.
Very brave, last time I posted one about Brexit I got told I had to learn to ignore polls.
I wasn't disagreeing with you at all.

It saddens me that for some reason Brown decided not to really go for the bankers while he still had that economic credibility. He could have done. Just imagine if there had been high profile court cases involving dodgy bankers.

I'm sure he felt he was doing the right thing, but with hindsight he allowed the alternative narrative about Labour's mess to emerge.

With a bit of hindsight I agree with you, but at that point, the most important thing was to steady the economy and get things moving again. After the election would have been the time to go for the bankers, unfortunately they lost so could't.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 2:08 pm

August 2016 Corbyn's office said public sector pay rises would be partly paid for by increasing the rate to 50 pence.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tor-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 2:13 pm

Marine Le Pen takes huge lead over nearest rival in new French presidential election poll
Results likely to add to growing fears far-right leader could be on course for victory in wake of shock Brexit and US presidential votes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 28126.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 2:18 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Marine Le Pen takes huge lead over nearest rival in new French presidential election poll
Results likely to add to growing fears far-right leader could be on course for victory in wake of shock Brexit and US presidential votes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 28126.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Merde!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 2:22 pm

Let the conversation here continue when we're not in agreement, when our strongly held convictions seem threatened.
We don't do Corbyn, McDonnell, the Labour party or each other any favours failing to relieve doubts and post criticism.
Criticising tactics, negotiation of political leadership and policy choices made historically and currently must continue
while hoping like hell our critique timing is right, not blowing the thing apart through dysfunctional personal conflict
with team members allowing the Dictator not only the win but to flourish, too.