Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th November 2016

Post by **refitman** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 8:54 am

Morning all.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 9:15 am

Good morfternoon.

'Extreme surveillance' becomes UK law with barely a whimper

A bill giving the UK intelligence agencies and police the most sweeping surveillance powers in the western world has passed into law with barely a whimper, meeting only token resistance over the past 12 months from inside parliament and barely any from outside.

The Investigatory Powers Act, given royal assent on Thursday, legalises a whole range of tools for snooping and hacking by the security services unmatched by any other country in western Europe or even the US. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -a-whimper

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 10:15 am

Five ways Trump flips presidential transition norms upside down

From dodging his own press pool to overly involving his children, the president-elect is playing by his own rules in preparing to enter the White House (Guardian)

These include -

Non-secure calls to foreign leaders

Isn't that a bit Hillary Clinton-esque (or would Donald Trump argue the he's "not President yet" so it doesn't count)?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... tion-norms

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 10:41 am

Another occasion to like Peter Oborne

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 10:49 am

Corbyn has been giving a speech

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1533790 ... rty-speech" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

Hard not to like this passage

This is a government led by Theresa May who, as Home Secretary, authorised taxpayer-funded vans to tour the streets emblazoned with ‘Go Home’.

Who as Home Secretary made up stories about being unable to deport foreign criminals because they had a pet cat.

Who was part of a government that called disabled people on benefits scroungers, shirkers, and skivers.

It is this culture in which rising levels of hate crime have occurred; far right views are now being presented as part of the mainstream, egged on by sections of the media that publish the most hateful and dishonest bile on a routine basis.

So Labour stands for something better. It is down to Labour to restore hope and give people the chance to take back real control.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:10 am

In fact has Corbyn been reading FTN?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:23 am

Brexit and Trump have exposed the left’s crucial flaw: playing by the rules

Jonathan Freedland (Guardian)

Read it and weep, as they say.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... thlessness

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:28 am

Hmmm, I wonder. There is part of me that still thinks better arguments and indeed campaigns might have made a difference in both cases.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:37 am

Morning all. Shopping done. Football later. Normal Saturday.

Drop Brexit case appeal, senior Tories urge May

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38034411

Theresa May should abandon an appeal against the court ruling that means MPs must vote on the UK leaving the EU, leading Conservatives say.

Sir Oliver Letwin, former head of the government's Brexit preparations, and two former law officers said the case should not go to the Supreme Court.

Instead, they want ministers to bring a bill to Parliament to start the process of Brexit as soon as possible.

Now, if it were only Letwin, I'd ignore it but...

Former Solicitor General Sir Edward Garnier said Mrs May should drop the appeal to avoid expense and a row about judges' powers, while former Attorney General Dominic Grieve said he could not see the point of continuing with the case.

All three said ministers should bring a bill allowing the government to begin leaving the European Union - triggering Article 50 - as soon as possible.

Those two carry a lot more weight on the matter.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:47 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Hmmm, I wonder. There is part of me that still thinks better arguments and indeed campaigns might have made a difference in both cases.

There were huge leads for leaving the EU during the Eurozone crisis. Anyone wanting to stay in would not have called a referendum when Cameron did, but given themselves a couple of years to make the arguments. Decades of drip, drip anti-EU propaganda were never going to be overturned overnight. Whether deliberately or not, Cameron delivered the perfect conditions for a leave win. It shouldn't have been a surprise. Why do you think Ed Miliband was willing to risk losing some votes by refusing to hold one?

As for the US, the combination of Hillary's substantial lead in the popular vote, the convenient way just the right states fell to Trump against polling indication to map a route to the White House and the rumours circulating about Russian hacking up to the vote along with some new election rules in some states that made it harder for some groups to vote - I find the idea of "better" arguments naive. More money and dirty tricks like the other side seems the way to go. Personal letters to every single voter in marginal states from President Barack Obama explaining how Donald Trump was a risk to national security might have swung it. At least, it worked for the Tories, didn't it and still nothing about their over spending. The right cheat and get away with it. If we don't grasp this basic fact we will never forge the right strategy to defeat them.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:56 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. Shopping done. Football later. Normal Saturday.

Drop Brexit case appeal, senior Tories urge May

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38034411

Theresa May should abandon an appeal against the court ruling that means MPs must vote on the UK leaving the EU, leading Conservatives say.

Sir Oliver Letwin, former head of the government's Brexit preparations, and two former law officers said the case should not go to the Supreme Court.

Instead, they want ministers to bring a bill to Parliament to start the process of Brexit as soon as possible.
Now, if it were only Letwin, I'd ignore it but...

Former Solicitor General Sir Edward Garnier said Mrs May should drop the appeal to avoid expense and a row about judges' powers, while former Attorney General Dominic Grieve said he could not see the point of continuing with the case.

All three said ministers should bring a bill allowing the government to begin leaving the European Union - triggering Article 50 - as soon as possible.
Those two carry a lot more weight on the matter.

Presumably they think the risk/cost of losing is too high?

He added that one of the advantages of bringing a "fast and tightly timetabled and constrained bill" to Parliament, giving the government the ability to trigger Brexit without any constraints on its negotiating power, was that it avoided "any risk of the Supreme Court deciding to accord the devolved administrations some rights or even some veto powers" over triggering Article 50.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:58 am

Both the results were close enough for it to be at least arguable that the campaigns mattered.

And both the remain and HRC efforts were, by common consent, inept and complacent.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:01 pm

I think that the Scotland/NI problem will have to be addressed at some point anyway. I don't see how it can be avoided

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:05 pm

Indeed, May might not want to avoid it. It might be convenient to be "forced" into remaining in the single market, achieving a better economic outcome Tory donors want whilst still seeming to fight for hard-line Brexiters and hopefully retaining their votes.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:10 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rsity-plea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike Pence booed at Hamilton performance and hears diversity plea
After audience jeered vice-president elect at New York musical, actor addressed him from stage: ‘We are the diverse Americans anxious you will not protect us’

while we doff our caps and quietly acquiesce to extreme surveillance.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:14 pm

Willow904 wrote:Indeed, May might not want to avoid it. It might be convenient to be "forced" into remaining in the single market, achieving a better economic outcome Tory donors want whilst still seeming to fight for hard-line Brexiters and hopefully retaining their votes.

Indeed, there are suggestions this has been the "plan" all along. Though this maybe credits May and others with a degree of cunning they don't actually possess.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:16 pm

Willow904 wrote:I think that the Scotland/NI problem will have to be addressed at some point anyway. I don't see how it can be avoided

I think that might be the dangerous attraction of 'hard brexit',
it avoids having to face & deal with the real complications, it just forces things to happen & let's May appear to be getting on with the job.
Picking up the pieces afterwards may be someone else's problem, but again will just have to be dealt with as and when, rather than planned ahead (if that makes sense).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:22 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ohn-harris" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
adult diagnosis - autism

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:29 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
Willow904 wrote:I think that the Scotland/NI problem will have to be addressed at some point anyway. I don't see how it can be avoided
I think that might be the dangerous attraction of 'hard brexit',
it avoids having to face & deal with the real complications, it just forces things to happen & let's May appear to be getting on with the job.
Picking up the pieces afterwards may be someone else's problem, but again will just have to be dealt with as and when, rather than planned ahead (if that makes sense).

Yes, absolutely. The problem with the single market option is that although it's the best Brexit option it's rather obviously inferior to simply staying in the EU as it doesn't have the advantage of giving people want they want in terms of curbing immigration. Having said that hard Brexit Tories probably still favour immigration and choosing immigration having gained the option not to is an even bigger hard sell.
Let's say May isn't that cunning and is probably pursuing the appeal in order to just generally stall because she's hoping a reason will come along that gives her an excuse not to trigger article 50 at all. This was one of my possible scenarios from the start, not so much because I wanted it but because you can't trust Tories as far as you can throw them.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:36 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/n ... fairytales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
why we need more feminist fairytales

I don't know I agree on the specific - feminism - but it's certainly got me thinking.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:36 pm

Anna Soubry: ‘What’s happened to our country? We’ve lost the plot’
The Tory MP was one of David Cameron’s modernisers, and campaigned to remain in the EU. Now she is angry at everyone – at Labour, her own party, the Daily Mail, even herself – but feels she must vote for article 50 regardless

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -interview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"How MPs in Westminster vote might turn out to be moot if Soubry is right about her next point. The government is appealing against the high court ruling, but at the supreme court hearing, the Scottish government will argue that the consent of Holyrood is also required to trigger article 50. Soubry thinks it has a strong case. “Yes. I’m reliably informed that the Scotland Act 2016 section 2 says that you cannot interfere with devolved Scottish matters, they must be determined by the Scottish parliament.”

If, as seems likely, Scotland were to block article 50, what would happen then? “Well, we’re in a terrible constitutional crisis. We are on the verge of a constitutional crisis the likes of which we have not seen.”

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:48 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -statement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pension cold calling to be banned after rise in scams
Philip Hammond will announce new rules in autumn statement to tackle fraud that cost older people almost £19m in 2015

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:54 pm

"You can't trust the Tories as far as you can throw them"

Definitely can't trust them as far as I'd like to be able to throw them.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:14 pm

One in 500 chance humans will be extinct in a year, mathematician claims
A mathematician at the University of Barcelona has estimated there is a 13 per cent chance humanity will fail to see out the 21st Century
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 26451.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:15 pm

This is a more optimistic conclusion than previous studies, with British Astronomer Royal Sir Martin Rees suggesting there was a 50 per cent probability of human extinction by the year 2100 in his 2003 book Our Final Hour.

"Irrespective of the aforementioned statistical inferences, it would be naive in the extreme to believe that the annual risk of global catastrophe is vanishingly small," Dr Simpson said.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:19 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 24706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wealthy Indians are said to be treating their maids, drivers, nannies and cooks with unusual politeness, in the hope of persuading them to launder undeclared cash they had been stashing in their homes following what the Indian government called a “strike” against people who keep unaccounted-for cash in the country.

Sometimes I feel the whole human thing is just some massive celestial reality tv show.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:26 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 26511.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ms Truss’ failure to come to the defence of the judiciary for nearly 48 hours – and her lukewarm response when she did – means if she were taken to court she would likely be found to have acted unlawfully, Lord Igor Judge said.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:27 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 26511.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ms Truss’ failure to come to the defence of the judiciary for nearly 48 hours – and her lukewarm response when she did – means if she were taken to court she would likely be found to have acted unlawfully, Lord Igor Judge said.

Who's for a whip-round?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:40 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
This is a more optimistic conclusion than previous studies, with British Astronomer Royal Sir Martin Rees suggesting there was a 50 per cent probability of human extinction by the year 2100 in his 2003 book Our Final Hour.

"Irrespective of the aforementioned statistical inferences, it would be naive in the extreme to believe that the annual risk of global catastrophe is vanishingly small," Dr Simpson said.

The Yellowstone supervolcano could easily wipe out the human race I imagine if it were to erupt. Not to mention the ever present hazard of meteor impact. Given our complete inability to do anything about such eventualities I suspect a lack of awareness of their statistical probability among the wider population is probably just as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_Caldera" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:43 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
One in 500 chance humans will be extinct in a year, mathematician claims
A mathematician at the University of Barcelona has estimated there is a 13 per cent chance humanity will fail to see out the 21st Century
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 26451.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think that was roughly Trump's chance of winning a month before the election. Just to cheer everybody up further

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:47 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:49 pm

citizenJA wrote:Good-afternoon, everyone.

Wotcha!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:54 pm

Corbyn accuses Theresa May of whipping up hatred against migrants (Guardian)

It might be politic (and true) for Labour to point out how dangerous this is for everybody.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... t-migrants

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 2:02 pm

Afternoon.
Not sure if anyone can help, it's connected with hunting with hounds.

We went out for a couple of hours and walked up on the hills above the Aeron valley. On the way back we heard dogs barking and hunting horns. It's very quiet here, virtually no traffic, so sound carries along the valley.

Since we got home I've been searching the internet to try and find out which hunt was meeting, or anything to do with it.
Haven't been able to get any info. Does anyone know of an anti-hunt website that may list dates/locations ? Obviously concerned that in such a rural area foxes could be killed and no one would know. The dogs sounded like they were in full frenzy. I would like to know more about who they are and what they were doing to make sure it is legit.

Just hope any creatures being chased ran like the wind and found safety.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 2:10 pm

Like the look of the Corbyn speech. Maybe he does read FTN

Apart from pointing out that Farage and Trump are fake anti-elitists, thankfully he doesn't use the words political elites or Establishment.

I just read it to my other half. ''Does it make you feel like joining the Labour party again ?'' he asked.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 2:48 pm

City of Brussels set to honour killed British MP Jo Cox

Labour politician on list of prominent women after whom council will name new streets, squares and buildings (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -mp-jo-cox

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 3:04 pm

Trump demands apology from Hamilton cast after Mike Pence booed (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rsity-plea

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 3:06 pm

yahyah wrote:Afternoon.
Not sure if anyone can help, it's connected with hunting with hounds.

We went out for a couple of hours and walked up on the hills above the Aeron valley. On the way back we heard dogs barking and hunting horns. It's very quiet here, virtually no traffic, so sound carries along the valley.

Since we got home I've been searching the internet to try and find out which hunt was meeting, or anything to do with it.
Haven't been able to get any info. Does anyone know of an anti-hunt website that may list dates/locations ? Obviously concerned that in such a rural area foxes could be killed and no one would know. The dogs sounded like they were in full frenzy. I would like to know more about who they are and what they were doing to make sure it is legit.

Just hope any creatures being chased ran like the wind and found safety.

Here you go Yahyah
http://mfha.org.uk/pack_directory/compo ... Itemid,71/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notes on trail hunting from above site
http://mfha.org.uk/hunting/notes-on-trail-hunting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 3:19 pm

“Again and again, one side bows to the rules and to what’s fair – while the other focuses on the ruthless exercise of power.
...the result is that today, in both Britain and America, the right has power and next to nothing standing in its way. No one
wants the left to behave like the right – but it’s time we fought just as hard.”

- Jonathan Freedland

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... thlessness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The left will have to fight harder like the left have always had to fight harder against the right. The left and the right aren’t in
positions of equality. The right own and control powerful organisations, resources and media the left don’t, the left prevented
accessing resources the right keep through brute force. The left will get arrested if they used tactics the right use with impunity.
The right is an abusive parent to the child that is the left. It's not comfortable acknowledging disadvantage. It's not supposed to
be there, is it? Even disadvantage resulting from bowing to no greater superiority than old-fashioned violence and nothing more.
Nonetheless, pretending power is fairly distributed won't relieve besieged left-wingers overrun by right-wing berks with weapons.

I've dedicated my life to non-violent action because no lasting peace or stability comes from using it. When the weapon is picked up,
it'll never get put down. Perpetual conflict isn't natural or normal and no one thrives in that environment. It's not adaptive, it's futile.
Reasoning with irrational violence is impossible. I don't know what to do right now given current affairs.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 3:25 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 25336.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
UK needs migration 'because native Britons are bloody stupid', says pro-EU lord

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hBN ... id&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gildas the wise
(the Britons are to proud, stupid and untrustworthy to accept Rome's blessings)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 3:26 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Corbyn accuses Theresa May of whipping up hatred against migrants (Guardian)
It might be politic (and true) for Labour to point out how dangerous this is for everybody.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... t-migrants

Yes, this can't be stressed too much. No one remains immune from the effects of tolerated hatred.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 4:29 pm

Storm Angus prompts Met Office warnings for southern England

Amber warning for south coast and yellow warning for inland areas issued as first named storm of autumn approaches (Guardian)

Super!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rn-england

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 5:09 pm

@Angry

Thanks for those links.

I'm hoping it isn't the Gogerddan Hunt. They have form for, erm...ambiguous proceedings, although it is ten years since they were last accused of anything.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 5:46 pm

Astonishing tennis Murray vs Raonic

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 5:54 pm

Well done Murray - what a nail biter

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 6:03 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 26811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sixty Tory MPs demand Theresa May commits Britain to a Hard Brexit
The MPs want the UK to leave the single market and customs union

We really are a bunch of pathetic forelock-tugging losers.

60 MPs - just a millionth of the population - and I wonder how many of these 60 have French (sorry, Norman) or French-derived surnames.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 6:04 pm

Bet my missing "o" above is driving PF INSANE

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 6:05 pm

That Eeyore (the real Eeyore) has nothing on me for irrepressible good humour and optimism.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 6:06 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 26811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sixty Tory MPs demand Theresa May commits Britain to a Hard Brexit
The MPs want the UK to leave the single market and customs union
We really are a bunch of pathetic forelock-tugging losers.

60 MPs - just a millionth of the population - and I wonder how many of these 60 have French (sorry, Norman) or French-derived surnames.

Norman has asked me to tell you that he accepts your apology.