Tuesday 22nd November 2016

Post by **refitman** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 9:07 am

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 9:13 am

Morning.

There's a case being heard at Cardiff Crown Court, if true the allegations show how far payday loan sharks will go to protect their businesses.

The owner of a ''predator'' payday loan company allegedly hired computer hackers to take down a consumer protection website that published complaints from his customers.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... i-12206958" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 9:15 am

Good morfternoon.

[quote]No 10 rejects Trump's call for Farage to be UK ambassador to the US - Politics live (Guardian)/quote]

On today's Guardian front page.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live

Edited to add -

Or, alternatively

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nald-trump

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 9:39 am

Ah, it's a good day for popcorn sales.

Let's see how the strong May reacts when constantly asked about Farage. Nigel at the state banquet as a prerequisite to a Trump visit?

Morning all.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 10:04 am

StephenDolan wrote:Ah, it's a good day for popcorn sales.

Let's see how the strong May reacts when constantly asked about Farage. Nigel at the state banquet as a prerequisite to a Trump visit?

Morning all.

As the saying goes - if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 10:08 am

The Electoral Commission has launched an investigation into Ukip over whether it got “impermissible” donations from the ADDE group in Europe. (Politics Live, Guardian)

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

Laura Kuenssberg – Verified account ‏@bbclaurak

How's that running commentary going? Leader of biggest group in euro parly says David Davis told him govt wants to stay in single market

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:03 am

A WAKE-UP CALL FOR LIBERAL BREXITERS
http://www.cer.org.uk/publications/arch ... -brexiters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexiters ......................... implicit assumption was that the US would continue to provide the security umbrella that makes peace and prosperity possible. The election of Donald Trump has undermined the premises of their argument. Forging as close ties as possible with the EU has never been so important for the UK.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:05 am

StephenDolan wrote:Laura Kuenssberg – Verified account ‏@bbclaurak

How's that running commentary going? Leader of biggest group in euro parly says David Davis told him govt wants to stay in single market

Oh, did he now?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:05 am

We've had a few New Yorker links lately haven't we, good stuff.
DONALD TRUMP PERSONALLY BLASTS THE PRESS
By David Remnick
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... -the-press" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:11 am

gilsey wrote:We've had a few New Yorker links lately haven't we, good stuff.
DONALD TRUMP PERSONALLY BLASTS THE PRESS
By David Remnick
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... -the-press" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What's more disconcerting are the reports that the media heads acquiesced.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:46 am

Body language not looking convivial in these 4 photos.

Guy VerhofstadtVerified account
‏@GuyVerhofstadt
First meeting with @DavidDavisMP on Brexit. Agreement needs to be found ahead of the new 2019 European elections

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:48 am

People like Davis have spent years demonising EU politicians, so that shouldn't really be a surprise.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:54 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:People like Davis have spent years demonising EU politicians, so that shouldn't really be a surprise.

Never crossed their minds that one day they might succeed, and then have to negotiate with them.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:55 am

Ben Nutland ‏@BenNutland 3m3 minutes ago
Canada quashes hopes of quick UK trade deal after #Brexit as Finance minister says EU, China & US are priority

https://www.ft.com/content/47c59030-ac1 ... m=referral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:58 am

Morning all. Productive teaching Alliance meeting this morning.

Well.

Corporation tax is low enough already, don't cut it again, businesses say

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 02766.html

The Government should not cut corporation tax any further because it is already low enough and further reductions would have diminishing returns, businesses have said.

A survey of businesses by financial services and accountacy firm PwC found that bosses believe cutting the profit tax rate further below 17 per cent would “have limited impact” and also “risk alienating the public”.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:59 am

Cutting the CT rate to 17% will alienate this member of the public.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:10 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. Productive teaching Alliance meeting this morning.

Well.

Corporation tax is low enough already, don't cut it again, businesses say

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 02766.html
The Government should not cut corporation tax any further because it is already low enough and further reductions would have diminishing returns, businesses have said.

A survey of businesses by financial services and accountacy firm PwC found that bosses believe cutting the profit tax rate further below 17 per cent would “have limited impact” and also “risk alienating the public”.

Businesses are telling UK government not to lower businesses' taxes any more than they already have.
I've no emoticon suitable to insert here.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:10 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:18 pm

gilsey wrote:A WAKE-UP CALL FOR LIBERAL BREXITERS
http://www.cer.org.uk/publications/arch ... -brexiters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexiters ......................... implicit assumption was that the US would continue to provide the security umbrella that makes peace and prosperity possible. The election of Donald Trump has undermined the premises of their argument. Forging as close ties as possible with the EU has never been so important for the UK.

When I earned an honest crust in the public sector, there were (among other things) two documents that had to be produced prior to starting any project - a cost/benefit analysis and a risk register. If these exist for the Brexit project, they're being kept well away from scrutiny!

No doubt the 'Trump factor' risk is being updated as we speak... isn't it?

On another topic, I see that the Brexiters are frothing over the possibility that a tax exile may be financing an anti-Brexit campaign:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 30396.html

Good job no Australian ~~newspaper~~ media owners took an interest in pushing Brexit!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:22 pm

A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:24 pm

Hello.

More Trump fun (long thread) here:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you want something shorter though, try this:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/ ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.

I believe (therefore it's true

) that Blair has denied any intention of returning to front line politics, despite the rumours. The article refers to Blairites, rather than Blair.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:56 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... e-save-nhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The social care system needs a rescue package – to help the NHS survive
David Brindle

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:08 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.
I believe (therefore it's true ) that Blair has denied any intention of returning to front line politics, despite the rumours. The article refers to Blairites, rather than Blair.

Yes, proven winners wildly popular with the public - like Alan Milburn and Jim Murphy

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:14 pm

I've noticed that, although "Brexit" may mean "Brexit", it is now often pronounced "Bregzit".

Should I be reading anything into this?

Edited to add -

Does the Collins Dictionary take account of this variance?

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:16 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.
I believe (therefore it's true ) that Blair has denied any intention of returning to front line politics, despite the rumours. The article refers to Blairites, rather than Blair.
Yes, proven winners wildly popular with the public - like Alan Milburn and Jim Murphy

Ah - but you forgot Cleggy, former chief moderator of Tory excesses.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:20 pm

PoliticsHome Verified account ‏@politicshome 2h2 hours ago

Lord Kerslake tells MPs there is a "real issue" about numbers in civil service as Government undertakes Brexit. Calls for capacity review.

Fairly typical of this government - cut back like mad just to boast about how much waste there clearly was...and then have to backtrack when they find things can't get done.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:I've noticed that, although "Brexit" may mean "Brexit", it is now often pronounced "Bregzit".

A quick look btl at the Independent shows this to be the polite pronunciation. Other pronunciations/descriptions are available.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:26 pm

yahyah wrote:Morning.

There's a case being heard at Cardiff Crown Court, if true the allegations show how far payday loan sharks will go to protect their businesses.

The owner of a ''predator'' payday loan company allegedly hired computer hackers to take down a consumer protection website that published complaints from his customers.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... i-12206958" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for that link yahyah. I knew there was a court case pending but hadn't bothered to find out the sentence.

CAG is a brilliant resource for people in financial difficulties. There's a wealth of information & experience that is freely shared. Legal experts give guidance as well as people who have detailed knowledge of debt collection etc.

To think this 'hack' was going to be successful was desperate indeed.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.

Popped into the newsagents this morning, surprised to hear a near neighbour say (about the TB story) "Thank god the adults are taking over" another person agreed and added "He's about the only one who can sort this mess out"

Real world opinion of TB is a bit different than the internet world's opinion, in my (limited) experience.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:40 pm

Polling is ok then ? Aren't we supposed to ''learn to ignore it'' ?
Someone forgot to send that memo to the Labour party.

''Labour hires ad firm and pollsters to 'get ready' for snap election ''
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:41 pm

https://nearlylegal.co.uk/2016/11/touch ... gone-away/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A touch of sanity? Mandatory Pay to Stay gone away.

Nearly Legal(Giles Peaker)

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:42 pm

PorFavor wrote:I've noticed that, although "Brexit" may mean "Brexit", it is now often pronounced "Bregzit".

Should I be reading anything into this?

Edited to add -

Does the Collins Dictionary take account of this variance?

They rhyme differently, could be useful *

Brexit .... Boris wrecks it
Bregzit .... Dave legs it.

(Theresa May rhymes well,
i.e. Sleaze away, Disarray, Moral decay )

* or, more likely, not.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:43 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.
Popped into the newsagents this morning, surprised to hear a near neighbour say (about the TB story) "Thank god the adults are taking over" another person agreed and added "He's about the only one who can sort this mess out"

Real world opinion of TB is a bit different than the internet world's opinion, in my (limited) experience.

Now that polling has been introduced into the discussion, it needs to be stated that recent findings about our ex-PM are none too flattering.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:45 pm

Worse than the current leadership ?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:46 pm

Well, a few surveys have actually claimed that Labour would be doing worse under Blair than Corbyn. Motwyw.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 1:56 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.
Popped into the newsagents this morning, surprised to hear a near neighbour say (about the TB story) "Thank god the adults are taking over" another person agreed and added "He's about the only one who can sort this mess out"

Real world opinion of TB is a bit different than the internet world's opinion, in my (limited) experience.

I'm unsurprised you heard this. People are complicated individually as well as in groups. Mr citizen read me an article relatively
recently. I think I've got this right, correct me if I'm wrong, please. A poll of the best twentieth century UK Prime Ministers gave
number one best to Clement Attlee. The second place best was Margaret Thatcher. Help me, jaja. Make sense of that.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well, a few surveys have actually claimed that Labour would be doing worse under Blair than Corbyn. Motwyw.

..and yet
Exclusive: Jeremy Corbyn is still more popular with the party faithful but the public at large prefer Tony Blair

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 63306.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:17 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:A campaign fronted by the likes of Branson and Blair really *is* a non-starter in so many ways, though.
Popped into the newsagents this morning, surprised to hear a near neighbour say (about the TB story) "Thank god the adults are taking over" another person agreed and added "He's about the only one who can sort this mess out"

Real world opinion of TB is a bit different than the internet world's opinion, in my (limited) experience.

I'm unsurprised you heard this. People are complicated individually as well as in groups. Mr citizen read me an article relatively
recently. I think I've got this right, correct me if I'm wrong, please. A poll of the best twentieth century UK Prime Ministers gave
number one best to Clement Attlee. The second place best was Margaret Thatcher. Help me, jaja. Make sense of that.

Different people.

Post by **adam** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:33 pm

yahyah wrote:Polling is ok then ? Aren't we supposed to ''learn to ignore it'' ?
Someone forgot to send that memo to the Labour party.

''Labour hires ad firm and pollsters to 'get ready' for snap election ''
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I honestly and straightforwardly do not understand why anybody would pay any much attention to opinion polls, given that in virtually every way that matters in recent years they have been so hopeless. It doesn't matter that pollsters might have got the national vote share in the US more or less right, they were astronomically wrong in the state by state polls that actually mattered.

I'm not having a go at you at all, YahYah. I just genuinely don't know why anyone would be bothered with them, they're hopeless.

Post by **adam** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:35 pm

From the G

Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, has criticised Labour for attacking Donald Trump’s stance on climate change.

Trump thinks it was a hoax invented by China. Johnson thinks people shouldn't be criticising that? Isn't the world a shit hole.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:36 pm

"In what year did..."
"2016. The answer is always...2016"

Nigel Farage attacks response to Trump ambassador tweet

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38064664

Nigel Farage has accused Downing Street of putting its dislike of him ahead of the national interest after No 10 dismissed Donald Trump's comment that he could be a "great" ambassador.

The UKIP leader said No 10 needed to accept "the world has changed", adding he was "in a good position, with the president-elect's support, to help".

Mr Trump had tweeted that "many people" would like to see Mr Farage in the role and he would do a "great job".

But No 10 said there was "no vacancy".

The role is currently held by Sir Kim Darroch and a spokesman for Prime Minister Theresa May added that he was "an excellent ambassador who only took up post in January and traditionally they serve four years or even longer".

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:37 pm

House of Lords ‏@UKHouseofLords now4 seconds ago
#LordsQs start as #HouseofLords quizzes govt on number of qualified #nurses in England in 2015, watch live http://ow.ly/jca5306nJyD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:44 pm

2016, eloquently summed up.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is so tempting to say that, as a species, we deserve our fate. I studied modern German history under Professor Sir Ian Kershaw. There was one thing I could never quite grasp in spite of his expertise. I'd rather like to go back and study it again, because now I grasp it perfectly.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:49 pm

NonOxCol wrote:2016, eloquently summed up.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is so tempting to say that, as a species, we deserve our fate. I studied modern German history under Professor Sir Ian Kershaw. There was one thing I could never quite grasp in spite of his expertise. I'd rather like to go back and study it again, because now I grasp it perfectly.

One character on that thread

- whenever I see someone describing themselves as a libertarian, my usual reaction is

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:52 pm

Report by the Comptroller and Auditor General
National Audit Office (NAO)

Department of Health
Financial sustainability of the NHS
22 November 2016

"NHS bodies achieve financial sustainability when they are able to successfully
manage activity, quality and financial pressures within the income they receive.
In recent years, the financial performance of NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts
has significantly declined.

The Department of Health (the Department) has overall responsibility in central government for healthcare services.
It is responsible for ensuring that those organisations perform effectively and have governance and controls in place
to ensure value for money.

The Department has made NHS England and NHS Improvement responsible for ensuring that the NHS balances its budget in 2016-17.

In February 2016 the Department transferred £950 million of its £4.6 billion budget for capital projects, such as building works and
IT, to revenue budgets to fund the day-to -day activities of NHS bodies. Of this, £331 million was exchanged for revenue support
for 93 trusts, to fund healthcare services.

The Department did not assess the long-term effects of transferring this funding to cover day-to-day spending.
This means it does not know what risks trusts may face in future as a result of addressing immediate funding needs.

The Department, NHS England and NHS Improvement expect trusts and commissioners to invest in transformation programmes.
But they do not yet know what level of investment is required or whether local bodies will be able to make the changes at the
scale and pace needed. Furthermore, the government has made a commitment that the health and social care system in England
will be fully joined together by 2020.

We have previously reported that local authority spending on adult social care fell by 10% in real terms between 2009-10 (£16.3 billion) and 2014-15 (£14.6 billion).

The accounting officer for NHS England told the Committee of Public Accounts that “over the next two or three years, there is likely to
be a widening gap between the availability of adult social care and the need for social care. That, will, inevitably show up as delayed
discharges and extra pressure on hospitals.”

However, in our review of the plans for financial sustainability, we did not see any estimate of the impact of pressures on social care spending on NHS bodies.

Despite efforts by NHS England and NHS Improvement to join up to support local NHS bodies, a lack of incentives and unrealistic targets remain.
We heard from five of the 21 local bodies we spoke to that the pressure to meet the financial targets set by NHS Improvement for their individual
organisation did not incentivise them to work with other bodies in their local area to develop sustainability and transformation plans as required by
NHS England and NHS Improvement. Furthermore, in May 2016 the Committee of Public Accounts concluded that the 4% efficiency target for trusts
set by NHS England and Monitor (now NHS Improvement) in 2015-16 was unrealistic and damaging to trusts’ finances."

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... ummary.pdf

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 2:55 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: Popped into the newsagents this morning, surprised to hear a near neighbour say (about the TB story) "Thank god the adults are taking over" another person agreed and added "He's about the only one who can sort this mess out"

Real world opinion of TB is a bit different than the internet world's opinion, in my (limited) experience.

I'm unsurprised you heard this. People are complicated individually as well as in groups. Mr citizen read me an article relatively
recently. I think I've got this right, correct me if I'm wrong, please. A poll of the best twentieth century UK Prime Ministers gave
number one best to Clement Attlee. The second place best was Margaret Thatcher. Help me, jaja. Make sense of that.
Different people.

I was under the impression the same group of people ranked the entire list together. If that's not the case, then of course, it's unsurprising the result.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 3:02 pm

'A quick recap of the main points

1) Britain is on track to blow past its budget forecasts for this year, despite cutting its borrowing in October by 25%.

The UK has now borrowed £48.6bn since April 2016, down from £54.2bn a year ago, but already close to the £55bn target for this current financial year (to March 2017).

Economists believe it could overshoot the target by £10bn or more, underlining the weak state of the public finances.

The better news is that October’s deficit fell to £4.8bn, from £6.4bn a year ago, thanks to a rise in corporation tax receipts.'

That's from the G business live blog.

The BBC news app has

Government borrowing falls on record October tax take - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38062164" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 3:02 pm

The lengthy quote from today's NAO report on the financial sustainability of the NHS is to help point out that it's not the NHS' fault a Tory
government went about taking the NHS apart as the economical and functional universal health care provision system it was prior Tory
government. The documentation from the NAO helps prove that.