Wednesday 23rd November 2016

Post by **refitman** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 7:48 am

I agree with the PLP and not the leadership on the most important issue of our era.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Such a shame Starmer has proven so useless. Are they deliberately trying to humiliate him?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 7:52 am

Morning.

'Experts urge Clinton to challenge ''irregularities'' in voting in three swing states.'
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-share-di" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edited to add: there's more info on it at the Huff Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hil ... af95ed3a34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 7:59 am

''But as often happens these days, it fell to Caroline Lucas to sound a note of loud alarm''

Yep. Glad someone has noticed.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:03 am

yahyah wrote:''But as often happens these days, it fell to Caroline Lucas to sound a note of loud alarm''

Yep. Glad someone has noticed.

Yes. Not a party I am simpatico with generally, but if the election were tomorrow, I'd vote Green.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:04 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

'Experts urge Clinton to challenge ''irregularities'' in voting in three swing states.'
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-share-di" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can understand why the White House would want a smooth handover, but the circumstances of this US election are so exceptional a challenge seems necessary if only to put doubts to rest. At the very least, Hillary's lead in the popular vote has to be properly acknowledged. The system doesn't appear to have worked, it doesn't appear to have delivered the most popular candidate to the White House. Why?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:12 am

Willow904 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

'Experts urge Clinton to challenge ''irregularities'' in voting in three swing states.'
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-share-di" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can understand why the White House would want a smooth handover, but the circumstances of this US election are so exceptional a challenge seems necessary if only to put doubts to rest. At the very least, Hillary's lead in the popular vote has to be properly acknowledged. The system doesn't appear to have worked, it doesn't appear to have delivered the most popular candidate to the White House. Why?

This is the system as designed. It is supposed to give the country more weight than the town's (wrongly imo but there we are).

We can imagine the reaction to an equivalent Trump challenge if he had lost.

Post by **adam** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:22 am

Willow904 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

'Experts urge Clinton to challenge ''irregularities'' in voting in three swing states.'
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-share-di" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can understand why the White House would want a smooth handover, but the circumstances of this US election are so exceptional a challenge seems necessary if only to put doubts to rest. At the very least, Hillary's lead in the popular vote has to be properly acknowledged. The system doesn't appear to have worked, it doesn't appear to have delivered the most popular candidate to the White House. Why?

There's a concern about the possibility of hacking - that there are significantly more discrepancies between polling (and exit polling which is usually extremely accurate in US elections) in districts with electronic voting and counting than with manual.

There is also a concern that there was a big concerted effort to discount the votes of anybody who shared a name with another voter with the same name in a different county or district in the state - which, firstly, tends to hit ethnic minority (and therefore, generalising, democrat) voters harder and also tends to be open to abuse because people don't recognise a 'different' name as being very common - I have read something about this in the last few days but can't recall where - I'll have another look.

yahyah - this could be one reason why polls have been so wrong - they haven't.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:31 am

I'm clutching at straws Adam.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:42 am

SpinningHugo wrote:I agree with the PLP and not the leadership on the most important issue of our era.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Such a shame Starmer has proven so useless. Are they deliberately trying to humiliate him?

Morning folks,
Hey, Hugo, as a potential Green voter, you ought to recognise that climate change is the most important issue of this, or any other era. Which particular bunch of monkeys are squabbling over the organ handle is less important than the dying organ grinder. Perhaps you dont really understand the issues, or are an opportunistic charlatan, or merely a lying troll.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:46 am

Is everyone who has concerns about Labour's 'capitulation' on Brexit and might lean to another party at the next election an opportunistic charlatan or a lying troll ?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 9:15 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

'Experts urge Clinton to challenge ''irregularities'' in voting in three swing states.'
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... r-share-di" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can understand why the White House would want a smooth handover, but the circumstances of this US election are so exceptional a challenge seems necessary if only to put doubts to rest. At the very least, Hillary's lead in the popular vote has to be properly acknowledged. The system doesn't appear to have worked, it doesn't appear to have delivered the most popular candidate to the White House. Why?
This is the system as designed. It is supposed to give the country more weight than the town's (wrongly imo but there we are).

We can imagine the reaction to an equivalent Trump challenge if he had lost.

I think that this is different. Hillary's lead in the popular vote is much bigger than previous popular vote winners who went on to lose the electoral college and the marginal states Trump won against polling expectations were conveniently the precise ones he needed. No more, no less. If it's true the exit polls don't agree with the count in areas of electronic voting but agree where paper polls were used, there are grounds for investigation. Indeed, investigation is vital if democratic systems are to be defended. I think we can imagine that Trump would challenge the result in similar circumstances, that I wouldn't be happy about it and would be grumpy but why does that preclude Hillary doing the same and making Trump supporters grumpy? There are either genuine grounds for investigation or there aren't. Feelings shouldn't come into it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 9:36 am

55DegreesNorth wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Perhaps you dont really understand the issues, or are an opportunistic charlatan, or merely a lying troll.

Thanks for that.

I agree with you aboyt climate change at a global level, the UK is not the globe.

As, for reasons we don't need to rehearse, I can't vote Labour, who should I vote for if not the Greens? What should I do do you think?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 9:38 am

yahyah wrote:Is everyone who has concerns about Labour's 'capitulation' on Brexit and might lean to another party at the next election an opportunistic charlatan or a lying troll ?

Not everyone, no.

Morning all.

With all the pseudo tanks on the Labour lawn (again), there's a feel of the press telling the jams they'll never have had it so good.

Post by **adam** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 9:58 am

SpinningHugo wrote:This is the system as designed. It is supposed to give the country more weight than the town's (wrongly imo but there we are).

In the widest possible sense, possibly. It was designed in the 1780s, as part of the broader constitutional settlement, to try to acknowledge both the 'equal' value of each state and the distinctive value of the population of each state. At the time rural populations were significantly bigger than urban populations virtually everywhere in America (and stayed that way for a lot of the first century of the republic). Like first past the post systems generally it is fundamentally undemocratic but you can see how it fits into a settlement of a bunch of states who, in many ways, didn't entirely trust each other, or federalism, but wanted to see what they could manage.

At the moment the system does seem to be doing the thing that should be the death of FPTP everywhere - it has been sliding into a large number of very secure constituencies (where people can pile up votes to no effect) and a small number of key constituencies.

But so much of the constitution is considered as sacrosanct that even in the longer term it's very difficult to see any of this fundamentally changing.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:01 am

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/somethi ... ont-match/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Something stinks when exit polls and official counts don’t match

This is a long article, but really fascinating and underlines my unease about US election integrity as opposed to our own. There's a lot of stuff in here, but a standout is the role of the private sector in handling the count material. There are no answers in this piece, just a lot of uncomfortable questions and I challenge anyone to feel confident about the validity of Trump's win in light of such questions.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:24 am

yahyah wrote:Is everyone who has concerns about Labour's 'capitulation' on Brexit and might lean to another party at the next election an opportunistic charlatan or a lying troll ?

No.

But nor have Labour capitulated IMHO. I believe that's an oversimplification of a complex situation. Hey ho...

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:24 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
55DegreesNorth wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Perhaps you dont really understand the issues, or are an opportunistic charlatan, or merely a lying troll.
Thanks for that.

I agree with you aboyt climate change at a global level, the UK is not the globe.

As, for reasons we don't need to rehearse, I can't vote Labour, who should I vote for if not the Greens? What should I do do you think?

It's simply got to be the Libs for you Hugo

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:26 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
55DegreesNorth wrote:
Thanks for that.

I agree with you aboyt climate change at a global level, the UK is not the globe.

As, for reasons we don't need to rehearse, I can't vote Labour, who should I vote for if not the Greens? What should I do do you think?
It's simply got to be the Libs for you Hugo

We'll club together and get you some sandals for Christmas

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:27 am

Surprising the following story hasn't had greater publicity, either, given worries about Russian hacking:

http://www.gregpalast.com/democracy-now ... led-worse/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yet, the Republican Secretary of State of Ohio, Jon Husted, is allowing county officials to simply turn off these security functions — with no explanation as to why.

The counties, Fitrakis discovered, “bought state-of-the-art equipment and turned off the security,” both the ballot imaging function and the audit application that can detect and record evidence of machine tampering.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:44 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Thanks for that.

I agree with you aboyt climate change at a global level, the UK is not the globe.

As, for reasons we don't need to rehearse, I can't vote Labour, who should I vote for if not the Greens? What should I do do you think?
It's simply got to be the Libs for you Hugo
We'll club together and get you some sandals for Christmas

The Lib Dems policy on Brexit is pretty dreadful though, not as good as the Greens (though obviously better than Labour's).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:58 am

Morning all.

Interesting conversation between the National Schools Commissioner and the editor of FE Week.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note especially this:

Nick Linford ‏@NickLinford 17h17 hours ago

@Carter6D @educationgovuk @FEWeek as you know media are not allowed to converse with you directly. I made formal interview request with DfE

He's a civil servant. Does what his DfE masters tell him to do.

If Labour had put this structure in place whereby (if they have their way) all schools report into the DfE - what price openness and transparency when the NSC can't even talk to the media without permission?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 10:59 am

What is so bad about the LibDem policy SH? I thought that was what people like you were asking for.....

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:24 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ing-claims" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government scolded by watchdog over NHS funding claims

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:45 am

http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/Pu ... f-roll-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Universal Credit pilot council calls for ‘urgent’ suspension of roll-out

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:45 am

Guy VerhofstadtVerified account
‏@GuyVerhofstadt
Trump wants to take over her Majesty's role in appointing the British US Ambassador. Is that "taking back control"?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:48 am

This is the full response issued by John Healey, shadow secretary of state for housing, after the government said it would provide funding for increased affordable housing

http://labourlist.org/2016/11/no-plan-t ... ble-homes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:52 am

Interesting take on our tax system from Robert Colvile.

Why Britain’s tax system is dangerously top-heavy

https://capx.co/why-britains-tax-system ... top-heavy/

The UK economy is really good at creating jobs. For example, there are now almost half a million more people in employment than there were this time last year.

But we’re much less good at creating high-paying jobs. The UK’s flexible labour market means it’s easy to find low-wage employment (which can, in turn, be a first rung on the economic ladder). But as the latest report from the Social Mobility Commission shows, we’re lagging behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to creating more skilled positions:

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:55 am

AngryAsWell wrote:Guy VerhofstadtVerified account
‏@GuyVerhofstadt
Trump wants to take over her Majesty's role in appointing the British US Ambassador. Is that "taking back control"?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Farage taking Trump's side instead of thinking through the implications is hardly a surprise. He is, after all, a complete dimwit.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:56 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Interesting take on our tax system from Robert Colvile.

Why Britain’s tax system is dangerously top-heavy

https://capx.co/why-britains-tax-system ... top-heavy/

The UK economy is really good at creating jobs. For example, there are now almost half a million more people in employment than there were this time last year.

But we’re much less good at creating high-paying jobs. The UK’s flexible labour market means it’s easy to find low-wage employment (which can, in turn, be a first rung on the economic ladder). But as the latest report from the Social Mobility Commission shows, we’re lagging behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to creating more skilled positions:

Which is just one of the reasons why repeatedly increasing the personal allowance is a crap idea.
Even more crap than freezing fuel duty.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 11:59 am

AngryAsWell wrote:Guy VerhofstadtVerified account
‏@GuyVerhofstadt
Trump wants to take over her Majesty's role in appointing the British US Ambassador. Is that "taking back control"?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Am I alone in thinking this guy is a cheeky b*******?
A bit like someone outside the family slagging off the sister you fight with all the time.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:06 pm

gilsey wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Guy VerhofstadtVerified account
‏@GuyVerhofstadt
Trump wants to take over her Majesty's role in appointing the British US Ambassador. Is that "taking back control"?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Am I alone in thinking this guy is a cheeky b*******?
A bit like someone outside the family slagging off the sister you fight with all the time.

I actually really like him, he acknowledges the 48% and seems to be the only one seeking to make sure we (the 48%ers) also have our opinions taken into account in the leave negotiations.
Plus, anyone who puts NF down is fine by me.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:07 pm

A bit of good news for a change - the last BNP councillor on a "principal level" authority (Pendle DC, elected in 2014) has left the party.

Local government, above parish councils and their equivalents, is now a BNP free zone for the first time since May 2002.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:08 pm

John Harris ‏@johnharris1969 2h2 hours ago
If you want to agree/argue/whatever about Labour & Brexit, you can do so now https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-strategy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … I'll be in the thread

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:22 pm

Hillary Clinton's lead in the US popular vote has now reached 2 million, and is likely to increase further.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:What is so bad about the LibDem policy SH? I thought that was what people like you were asking for.....

No proposal to block attacks 50, just a vote on the first also deal, by which time it is too late.

Which is why I would currently opt Green.

Better than Labour, but not much. Pretty feeble really.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:24 pm

Verdict on the Jo Cox murder,due anon.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

Hi. I do like it when people get genuinely, righteously pissed off.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11 ... -of-silver" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:31 pm

Guilty,murder,firearm,gbh of pensioner,offensive weapon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:31 pm

And for the least surprising piece of breaking news...

Ian Cobain ‏@IanCobain 36s36 seconds ago

BREAKING:Thomas Mair found guilty of the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox

Post by **adam** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:35 pm

Graun dailypol

May says austerity is about living within our means. When we talk about support for the homeless, we must remember that taxpayers pay for that support, she says. And many of them are struggling.

What a shitty thing to say. 'The reason you're having a hard time is that those homeless people are taking from you'. It's not a surprise that this is what she thinks but it doesn't make it any less shitty.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:42 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:And for the least surprising piece of breaking news...

Ian Cobain ‏@IanCobain 36s36 seconds ago

BREAKING:Thomas Mair found guilty of the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox

So.... can we call him what he so obviously is now? And will certain media outlets call him what he so obviously is?

Apparently Mensch deleted all of her related tweets from the week or so after 16 June, incidentally. Not sure about JHB.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:44 pm

Of course no homeless person has ever payed tax,served in the forces,they are "separate" and ever have been,getting in your way after the opera.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:46 pm

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 48s48 seconds ago

Growth will be 2.4 percentage points lower as a result of Brexit. #AutumnStatement

and as a consequence.

Freddie Whittaker ‏@FCDWhittaker 1m1 minute ago

"In view of the uncertainty facing the country, we no longer seek to deliver a surplus in 2019/20" - Hammond #AutumnStatement

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:50 pm

Yikes.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 53s53 seconds ago

A £46.5bn deficit in 2018/19 where just 18 months ago the Manifesto promised a surplus. A spectacular deterioration in public finances.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:50 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:And for the least surprising piece of breaking news...

Ian Cobain ‏@IanCobain 36s36 seconds ago

BREAKING:Thomas Mair found guilty of the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox
So.... can we call him what he so obviously is now? And will certain media outlets call him what he so obviously is?

Apparently Mensch deleted all of her related tweets from the week or so after 16 June, incidentally. Not sure about JHB.

An extreme rightwing terrorist has been found guilty of the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox after a seven-day Old Bailey trial in which he made no effort to defend himself. (Guardian)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 12:57 pm

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1535566 ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour Press
Statement from Jeremy Corbyn

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 1:03 pm

"Whole life" sentence to Mair.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 1:07 pm

Torsten Bell ‏@TorstenBell 2m2 minutes ago

Scale of extra borrowing is much worse than expected - borrowing an additional £122bn cumulatively by 2020/21

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 1:27 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:And for the least surprising piece of breaking news...

Ian Cobain ‏@IanCobain 36s36 seconds ago

BREAKING:Thomas Mair found guilty of the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox
So.... can we call him what he so obviously is now? And will certain media outlets call him what he so obviously is?

Apparently Mensch deleted all of her related tweets from the week or so after 16 June, incidentally. Not sure about JHB.

What I am most interested in is the response of those "liberal" journalists who told us just after the murder that people being rude to MPs and themselves on social media was to blame.

Will they dare to call a spade a spade for once, rather than making it all about their anti-Corbyn/anti-left obsession?