Monday 28th November 2016

Post by **refitman** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:21 am

God I hate getting up at 6 for work

Did we do Watson on Saturday?

http://labourlist.org/2016/11/watson-mo ... n-eu-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I loved Corbyn's comment about how Fidel has outlasted so many US Presidents.

What was the secret oh his being in power so long I wonder?

I love the fake left. So funny.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:42 am

Morning

Watson I think we did do.

On the other hand Caroline Lucas I think not

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-reckless" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that Lucas doesn't say she's against Brexit per se, she says she's against it because the government hasn't provided a plan so it would be reckless to vote for it.

This actually sounds quite close to the Labour position to me. Here's how she sees the difference in position

Though I’m proud to have fought as hard as I could to stop Britain from leaving the EU, I’m not one of the MPs who immediately pledged to vote against article 50 after the high court’s ruling on the issue earlier this month. In the heat of the moment it would have been easy to offer an immediate kneejerk refusal to trigger article 50 in any circumstance. Similarly rash is the response of those, like the Labour leadership, who have gone too far other way – making an early promise to support the government in beginning the Brexit process. By doing so they’ve given away any bargaining power they had – and given the government’s agenda a real boost.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:48 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning

Watson I think we did do.

On the other hand Caroline Lucas I think not

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-reckless" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that Lucas doesn't say she's against Brexit per se, she says she's against it because the government hasn't provided a plan so it would be reckless to vote for it.

This actually sounds quite close to the Labour position to me. Here's how she sees the difference in position
Though I’m proud to have fought as hard as I could to stop Britain from leaving the EU, I’m not one of the MPs who immediately pledged to vote against article 50 after the high court’s ruling on the issue earlier this month. In the heat of the moment it would have been easy to offer an immediate kneejerk refusal to trigger article 50 in any circumstance. Similarly rash is the response of those, like the Labour leadership, who have gone too far other way – making an early promise to support the government in beginning the Brexit process. By doing so they’ve given away any bargaining power they had – and given the government’s agenda a real boost.

Yes. The Greens are the only ones talking sense. (The Lib Dems are too soft on art 50, and as for Labour it is compromised by Lexiters like Corbyn, or pragmatists like Watson who are scared of Ukip).

Greens have my support, and I am not a natural fit for them.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:51 am

SpinningHugo wrote:God I hate getting up at 6 for work

Did we do Watson on Saturday?

http://labourlist.org/2016/11/watson-mo ... n-eu-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I loved Corbyn's comment about how Fidel has outlasted so many US Presidents.

What was the secret oh his being in power so long I wonder?

I love the fake left. So funny.

God I hate repeats.
When you post as many posts attacking the Tories as you do attacking Labour, I'll believe you're not a troll.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:53 am

Good morfternoon.

Pension age may be about to rise again, says former minister

Steve Webb says government considering faster timetable for higher state pension age of 70, affecting millions of workers

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... r-minister

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:05 am

SpinningHugo wrote:God I hate getting up at 6 for work

Did we do Watson on Saturday?

http://labourlist.org/2016/11/watson-mo ... n-eu-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I loved Corbyn's comment about how Fidel has outlasted so many US Presidents.

What was the secret oh his being in power so long I wonder?

I love the fake left. So funny.

I'll never forgive Fidel Castro for giving us Gloria Estefan and the Miami Sound Machine.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:05 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Pension age may be about to rise again, says former minister

Steve Webb says government considering faster timetable for higher state pension age of 70, affecting millions of workers
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... r-minister

Amazing (to me) that French retirement age is 62. Fillon proposing to change.

Fillon v Le Pen.

Post by **adam** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:14 am

SpinningHugo wrote: I love the fake left. So funny.

I hear Tom Lehrer's decided to retire again.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:16 am

He couldn't, possibly, be this dim?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... ack-obama/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 9:15 am

Someone like Jarvis might be thought to be after the votes of a Bitterite like me, but he clearly isn't

http://nuk-tnl-deck-email.s3.amazonaws. ... 64ff7.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Awful

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 9:23 am

Morning all.

Government services seem to be creaking under the strain, so much that they're making the news. March is a long way off, that's a lot of time to have the mother of all distractions sucking up resources.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 9:27 am

Good-morning, everyone.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 10:28 am

I see that Paul Nuttall is being tipped to be UKIP's next leader when the result is announced later. When reminding myself from his wiki biog these two bits stand out:

Following his studies and before entering politics, Nuttall lived and worked in Barcelona before returning to Merseyside to lecture in history at Hugh Baird College and then at Liverpool Hope University.

and

Nuttall was found to place 736th out of 756 MEPs in terms of attendance in the European Parliament,[5] Nuttall defended his record, stating "I have no interest sitting all day in Brussels committees enacting job-killing, democracy-destroying legislation inspired by the EU".[6]

So not only does he want to deprive British people from doing what he himself did, he's also a lazy sod who didn't fulfill his role as an MEP but still claims the cash for doing nothing even after the Brexit vote.

A perfect choice for UKIP leader!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 10:34 am

Nonetheless, the Labour "core vote" is going to decamp to UKIP en masse once he is leader because he has a scouse accent. Didn't you know?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 10:39 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Nonetheless, the Labour "core vote" is going to decamp to UKIP en masse once he is leader because he has a scouse accent. Didn't you know?

Technically he's not a scouser, Bootle is part of Sefton

Post by **adam** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 10:52 am

Stuart Lee on 'Paul Nuttall of the UKIPS'

[youtube]phFkdUNhUfA[/youtube]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 10:56 am

StephenDolan wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Nonetheless, the Labour "core vote" is going to decamp to UKIP en masse once he is leader because he has a scouse accent. Didn't you know?
Technically he's not a scouser, Bootle is part of Sefton

As you know, the accent stretches out rather more widely than the city itself

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:52 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Nonetheless, the Labour "core vote" is going to decamp to UKIP en masse once he is leader because he has a scouse accent. Didn't you know?
Technically he's not a scouser, Bootle is part of Sefton
As you know, the accent stretches out rather more widely than the city itself

See Andy "I'm a Northerner" Burnham.

Prison suicides. Another way in which we see the basic civilising things getting worse.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:52 am

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 22s23 seconds ago

Paul Nuttall MEP has been elected leader of UKIP.

Not really a surprise. Especially as Farage referred to "he" when talking earlier about the new leader before correcting himself.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 12:02 pm

Though some of us still hoped Rees-Evans would win for the comedy value.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 12:04 pm

Ukip leadership election -

Some3[sic] 32,757 ballot papers were sent out, and 15,405 were returned.

Here are the results.

Paul Nuttall: 9,622 - 62.6%

Suzanne Evans: 2,973 - 19.3%

John Rees-Evans: 2,775 - 18.1% (Politics Live, Guardian)

Not many voted, then?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 12:05 pm

That is a pretty humiliating result for Evans actually.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 12:07 pm

PorFavor wrote:Ukip leadership election -

Some3[sic] 32,757 ballot papers were sent out, and 15,405 were returned.

Here are the results.

Paul Nuttall: 9,622 - 62.6%

Suzanne Evans: 2,973 - 19.3%

John Rees-Evans: 2,775 - 18.1% (Politics Live, Guardian)
Not many voted, then?

Contrast Labour of course. I can't see Ukips being much of a force from here on. The Tories will hoover them up.

Post by **adam** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 12:08 pm

PorFavor wrote:Ukip leadership election -

Some3[sic] 32,757 ballot papers were sent out, and 15,405 were returned.

Here are the results.

Paul Nuttall: 9,622 - 62.6%

Suzanne Evans: 2,973 - 19.3%

John Rees-Evans: 2,775 - 18.1% (Politics Live, Guardian)
Not many voted, then?

: Screen Shot 2016-11-28 at 12.07.35.png (30.94 KiB) Viewed 14504 times

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 12:30 pm

SpinningHugo wrote: I can't see Ukips being much of a force from here on.

I did actually point out long before the referendum that it didn't matter which way the vote went, UKIP would be finished.

When the only policy people know about is Brexit and that's done by 2020 (probably) then they have no reason to exist apart from picking up the populist nationalist vote.

Their big chance for Commons seats was last time round.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 12:45 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: I can't see Ukips being much of a force from here on.
I did actually point out long before the referendum that it didn't matter which way the vote went, UKIP would be finished.

When the only policy people know about is Brexit and that's done by 2020 (probably) then they have no reason to exist apart from picking up the populist nationalist vote.

Their big chance for Commons seats was last time round.

Not sure. Their name now is certainly irrelevant. But that's the main thing that makes them yesterday's news.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 1:45 pm

Abbott putting Jarvis in his place on wato.

It was good to hear the vox pops of Bootle dismissing Ukip. Poor Martha, she sounded gutted.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 2:57 pm

2h2 hours ago
Jess Phillips MP ‏@jessphillips
Working class people are not all the same, they don't all like and think the same thing.STOP PATRONISING THEM AND LOOKING DOWN ON THEM!!!!!!

Indeed. It's freaking ridiculous that to do so is perfectly acceptable. Contrast with the Thornberry photo outrage.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 3:06 pm

Fidel Castro Put Gay Men in Labor Camps. His Niece Mariela Is Leading Cuba’s LGBTQ Revolution

"It helps, too, that toward the end of his life Fidel Castro expressed regret about the labor camps, calling them “a great injustice” and accepting blame for their terrible conditions. The socialist who once thought of homosexuality as a creation of the bourgeoisie experienced something of a late-in-life conversion."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016 ... _cuba.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 5:47 pm

oh the irony

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -on-to-nhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The NHS and social care are at risk of being downgraded as a priority by a government distracted by Brexit unless there is a major public health crisis, the former chief executive of the NHS has warned.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 5:50 pm

https://infacts.org/single-market-legal ... ys-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The latest legal challenge to Theresa May’s Brexit plans threatens to put a cat among her pigeons. It is based on the argument that leaving the EU does not automatically mean that we quit the single market because we are a member of that by virtue of a completely separate treaty – the Agreement on the European Economic Area. The EEA treaty creates a single market encompassing EU states and three non-EU ones – Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 5:55 pm

Labour has announced that Jeremy Corbyn will not attend Fidel Castro’s funeral in Cuba tomorrow. Even though Corbyn was an admirer of Castro, the party will be represented by Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary. Sir Alan Duncan, the minister for the Americas, will represent the government.

In answer to SH's question.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 6:01 pm

Samuel Miller‏ @Hephaestus7
DWP: soon to be renamed Department for Work and No Pensions.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 6:09 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Samuel Miller‏ @Hephaestus7
DWP: soon to be renamed Department for Work and No Pensions.

I take it that's not a joke . . .

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 6:26 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Labour has announced that Jeremy Corbyn will not attend Fidel Castro’s funeral in Cuba tomorrow. Even though Corbyn was an admirer of Castro, the party will be represented by Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary. Sir Alan Duncan, the minister for the Americas, will represent the government.
In answer to SH's question.

Aw, he's no fun - the frothing right have been wetting themselves all day at the thought of Corbyn attending.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 6:45 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Samuel Miller‏ @Hephaestus7
DWP: soon to be renamed Department for Work and No Pensions.

I take it that's not a joke . . .

Well it wouldn't have been a joke for David Bowie or Alan Rickman if the retirement age had been 70 for them, as they both died aged 69. Of course there are always people who don't make it to retirement. The real point is that regardless of how long people are living, 70 is still pretty old. Fewer and fewer people will be physically able to work until they get their pension, pushing more and more people out of the politically sensitive bracket of deserving pensioners, into the political punching bag category of sick and disabled scroungers.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:10 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-carswell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour’s heartlands will turn to Ukip, and we will not fail them
Douglas Carswell

"we will lead an anti-oligarch insurgency"

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:12 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:

I take it that's not a joke . . .
Well it wouldn't have been a joke for David Bowie or Alan Rickman if the retirement age had been 70 for them, as they both died aged 69. Of course there are always people who don't make it to retirement. The real point is that regardless of how long people are living, 70 is still pretty old. Fewer and fewer people will be physically able to work until they get their pension, pushing more and more people out of the politically sensitive bracket of deserving pensioners, into the political punching bag category of sick and disabled scroungers.

Well, quite. Suddenly, "the elderly" so beloved of the press (when it suits their storyline), will cease to exist. People will be spring chickens one day and dead from old age the next.

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 7:36 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Labour has announced that Jeremy Corbyn will not attend Fidel Castro’s funeral in Cuba tomorrow. Even though Corbyn was an admirer of Castro, the party will be represented by Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary. Sir Alan Duncan, the minister for the Americas, will represent the government.
In answer to SH's question.
Aw, he's no fun - the frothing right have been wetting themselves all day at the thought of Corbyn attending.

I think the idea of the frothers merely wetting themselves over the prospect would be to seriously over-estimate their capacity for self-control.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:49 pm

It’s time to challenge the Brexit Pollyannas
Nick Cohen

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/ti ... ollyannas/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:52 pm

Sigh, if only there were even a remote prospect of a change of government

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8780" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:57 pm

Rigged election: 87,000 people in Michigan supposedly voted, but not for President

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/ri ... ident/262/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't even pretend to understand the USA voting system, so I'm posting this because I know some of you do and will be interested in it. Is this as significant as it made out to be? or is it just bad eggs?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 9:31 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Rigged election: 87,000 people in Michigan supposedly voted, but not for President

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/ri ... ident/262/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't even pretend to understand the USA voting system, so I'm posting this because I know some of you do and will be interested in it. Is this as significant as it made out to be? or is it just bad eggs?

In the USA the ballot papers are incredibly long, covering the presidential election down to the election of the dogs' home warden (I over-simplify).

Seems as though all these voters turned out to vote just for the dogs' home warden, or anything inbetween, skipping the boring bit relating to the next US President. So why did they bother to turn out?

But, having cast a vote (any vote) they are counted as having voted. Which, of course, they had.

Edited to add -

Allegedly

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:06 pm

Quiet here, innit?

Is everybody still reeling from so many of the punditocracy HOT TAKES on Nuttall's election??

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:22 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:It’s time to challenge the Brexit Pollyannas
Nick Cohen

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/ti ... ollyannas/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The conservative political and media classes are in a nationalist hysteria that shuttles from denial to rage and back again. They treat serious questions about our future as a kind of treason. Wonder where we are going and how we are going to make a living in the world, and you become an opponent of democracy and an enemy of the people.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:29 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Quiet here, innit?

Is everybody still reeling from so many of the punditocracy HOT TAKES on Nuttall's election??

I fear it's to do with gravity and critical mass.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:34 pm

Today, btw, there was a local byelection - for Angus council in Scotland. You do get them occasionally on other days than Thursday but a Monday election is very rare indeed.

But you know that old saying about buses? Because there is another one next Monday - and its in Angus again

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:46 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uk-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
She said the priority in negotiating a Brexit deal should be the economy, but appeared to also support greater controls on immigration, saying: “Now, do I think that too many people at the moment come into this country? I think that yes, I think they do.”

Emily Thornberry on Marr (sorry if we've had it already).

I suspect the issue more the overall carrying capacity of the planet.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 11:49 pm

There is still a strong tendency for us to defer to the confident and well-spoken, no matter how ridiculous their views
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... uity-toffs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

involuntarily reaches for forelock/cap