Thursday 1st December 2016

Post by **refitman** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 7:10 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 7:22 am

Ed Balls interview

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_583f2 ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 7:34 am

Owen Jones very funny this morning

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ave-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We have to compromise with the electorate. Really????

And Ian Lavery!!!??!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 7:49 am

Morning.

We were out all day yesterday so just catching up on yesterday's posts.

Stephen D. posted about oil prices increasing and wondered if it is maybe time to buy an electric car.

We ordered a new car yesterday [or more accurately we will place the order today if our insurance company stop playing silly beggars and will actually tell me how much the insurance will be].
We considered an electric car, presuming the government grant of £5,000 is still in operation.
But the prices are rather eye watering even so. A small Volkswagen E-Up is £25,000, double the base price of a no frills petrol model. We live in a rural area, electricity supplies are sometimes irregular during storms etc., we've seen no public charging points. Still can't get round the worry that power supply problems could mean no charge in the car, and the charging process takes a long time. There are no buses here so not having a car that won't work is not an option.

Anyone know someone with an electric car ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 8:05 am

Not sure I saw anyone post this, a boundary review update by You Gov's Antony Wells from a couple of days ago.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9780" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 8:46 am

Good morfternoon.

Junior doctors' training under threat, says GMC

Junior doctors in the UK fear they are missing out on crucial training because of increasing workloads, a report by the General Medical Council suggests.

In the survey, many of the doctors training to be consultants and senior GPs said they frequently had to cope with problems beyond their expertise.

And those who complained of a heavy workload said they were three times more likely to leave a teaching session to deal with a clinical call. (BBC News website)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38162855

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 8:49 am

Pinch, punch, first day of the month, no returns.

Morning all.

That 'grassroots' (cough) campaign Parents and Teachers for Education had their launch last night. With Nick Gibb speaking.

Strangely, they seem to have not put out any advance publicity for it...

And they're only interested in standards not structures.

George Trefgarne
‏@GeorgeTrefgarne

At Parents and Teachers for Excellence launch tonight: a knowledge based curriculum, good behaviour, Academies, Free Schools, a noble cause

Oh.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 9:07 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

We were out all day yesterday so just catching up on yesterday's posts.

Stephen D. posted about oil prices increasing and wondered if it is maybe time to buy an electric car.

We ordered a new car yesterday [or more accurately we will place the order today if our insurance company stop playing silly beggars and will actually tell me how much the insurance will be].
We considered an electric car, presuming the government grant of £5,000 is still in operation.
But the prices are rather eye watering even so. A small Volkswagen E-Up is £25,000, double the base price of a no frills petrol model. We live in a rural area, electricity supplies are sometimes irregular during storms etc., we've seen no public charging points. Still can't get round the worry that power supply problems could mean no charge in the car, and the charging process takes a long time. There are no buses here so not having a car that won't work is not an option.

Anyone know someone with an electric car ?

Morning all.

I do, a Renault Zoe. Between government grant and dealer contribution it'll be closer to 12k for me if I choose to purchase at the end. Free home charger too. For the majority you lease the battery, but once you get your head around that it's great.

As for charging locations, check out zap map.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 9:11 am

StephenDolan wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

We were out all day yesterday so just catching up on yesterday's posts.

Stephen D. posted about oil prices increasing and wondered if it is maybe time to buy an electric car.

We ordered a new car yesterday [or more accurately we will place the order today if our insurance company stop playing silly beggars and will actually tell me how much the insurance will be].
We considered an electric car, presuming the government grant of £5,000 is still in operation.
But the prices are rather eye watering even so. A small Volkswagen E-Up is £25,000, double the base price of a no frills petrol model. We live in a rural area, electricity supplies are sometimes irregular during storms etc., we've seen no public charging points. Still can't get round the worry that power supply problems could mean no charge in the car, and the charging process takes a long time. There are no buses here so not having a car that won't work is not an option.

Anyone know someone with an electric car ?
Morning all.

I do, a Renault Zoe. Between government grant and dealer contribution it'll be closer to 12k for me if I choose to purchase at the end. Free home charger too. For the majority you lease the battery, but once you get your head around that it's great.

As for charging locations, check out zap map.

I know a number of people consider this option too.

http://fuelincluded.com/fuel-included/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 9:15 am

Thanks Stephen.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 9:28 am

It all becomes clear now what that request from schools for the nationality of pupils was for...

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 9:43 am

The Sun registered as an official Leave campaign group and spent £96,000 on Brexit campaigning

from independent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media ... 45426.html

and zelo street:
http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2016/11 ... n.html?m=1

edited: oops, misspelt independent.
(and then went on to misspell misspelt as mispelt, but caught it in time.)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 9:52 am

Further to RogerOThornhill's post -

Ofsted chief links divide in education to 'malaise' behind Brexit vote

Michael Wilshaw says failure to raise standards in parts of England feeds into sense of being treated unfairly

The head of the schools watchdog has linked the Brexit vote to the failure to raise education standards in parts of England.

He also made clear he believed that schools should not be used as a border control by the Home Office. Commenting on a report based on documents leaked to the BBC showing that the Home Office wanted to “deprioritise” the children of parents unlawfully in the UK for school places, Wilshaw said: “I’m amazed and shocked by it. Schools should not be used for border control.” (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... rexit-vote

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 9:59 am

Quarterly net migration data are expected to show that annual figure remains more than three times above May’s target of 100,000.

The Home Office is expected to deflect some of the political embarrassment by announcing the rollout of two further measures from
Thursday designed to create a “hostile environment” that it will say will discourage illegal immigration.

They are tougher penalties, including prison sentences, for landlords who rent to tenants without proper immigration papers and the
start of a “deport first, appeal later” policy for those challenging some immigration decisions.

- Huge backlog as EU citizens rush to secure British residency

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... exit-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Deflecting political embarrassment with some rollout of hostile environment
Good-morning, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 10:02 am

Davis says Boris Johnson does not support free movement

David Davis says what he has seen in the papers today about Boris Johnson - he is referring to this Sky story http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson ... t-10678355 - is completely at odds with what Johnson thinks. (Politics Live, Guardian)

And Boris Johnson says?

This is getting (more) ridiculous.

Edited to add -

I've checked the url that I've plonked in, above, to the Sky News article and it works (although you'd be forgiven for thinking that it doesn't).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 10:05 am

And further to my post above:

Post by **adam** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 10:12 am

Another interesting look on new political culture, this time in a piece on Gamergate and its links to the rise and movement into the mainstream of the extreme rightwing

What Gamergate should have taught us about the 'alt-right'

Looking back, Gamergate really only made sense in one way: as an exemplar of what Umberto Eco called “eternal fascism”, a form of extremism he believed could flourish at any point in, in any place – a fascism that would extol traditional values, rally against diversity and cultural critics, believe in the value of action above thought and encourage a distrust of intellectuals or experts – a fascism built on frustration and machismo. The requirement of this formless fascism would – above all else – be to remain in an endless state of conflict, a fight against a foe who must always be portrayed as impossibly strong and laughably weak. This was the methodology of Gamergate, and it now forms the basis of the contemporary far-right movement.

Post by **adam** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 10:21 am

The Umberto Eco piece the quote refer to is here

The New York Review of Books - Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 10:41 am

adam wrote:Another interesting look on new political culture, this time in a piece on Gamergate and its links to the rise and movement into the mainstream of the extreme rightwing

What Gamergate should have taught us about the 'alt-right'
Looking back, Gamergate really only made sense in one way: as an exemplar of what Umberto Eco called “eternal fascism”, a form of extremism he believed could flourish at any point in, in any place – a fascism that would extol traditional values, rally against diversity and cultural critics, believe in the value of action above thought and encourage a distrust of intellectuals or experts – a fascism built on frustration and machismo. The requirement of this formless fascism would – above all else – be to remain in an endless state of conflict, a fight against a foe who must always be portrayed as impossibly strong and laughably weak. This was the methodology of Gamergate, and it now forms the basis of the contemporary far-right movement.

"The strangest aspect of Gamergate is that it consistently didn’t make any sense....It was constantly demanded that we debate the
issues, but explanations and facts were treated with scorn. Attempts to find common ground saw the specifics of the demands being
shifted: we want you to listen to us; we want you to change your ways; we want you to close your publication down. This movement
that ostensibly wanted to protect free speech from cry bully SJWs [social justice warriors] simultaneously did what it could to endanger
sites it disagreed with, encouraging advertisers to abandon support for media outlets that published stories critical of the hashtag."

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 10:41 am

tinybgoat wrote:
The Sun registered as an official Leave campaign group and spent £96,000 on Brexit campaigning

from independent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media ... 45426.html

and zelo street:
http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2016/11 ... n.html?m=1

edited: oops, misspelt independent.
(and then went on to misspell misspelt as mispelt, but caught it in time.)

From zelo street

If only the Sun, and the rest of the Murdoch empire, would have the backbone to stick around and own up when everything goes belly up, which it is already showing every sign of doing. Sadly, the words of Stanley Baldwin, “What the proprietorship of these papers is aiming at is power, and power without responsibility – the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages”, are still true. Murdoch wants to meddle. But not carry the can.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 11:34 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Owen Jones very funny this morning

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ave-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We have to compromise with the electorate. Really????

And Ian Lavery!!!??!

Owen Jones has always been a rather more nuanced and intelligent commentator than your tendency has been willing to admit.

And he seems to get the most grief these days from Corbynistas who see him as "backsliding". I have little doubt that if he had been made Jez's media supremo rather than Milne, both the leader and party would currently be in a somewhat better place

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:05 pm

http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/whats-happe ... EAnR3ecZmB" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

whats-happening-immigration-post-brexit

Portes

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:21 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38157410" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More than 250,000 are homeless in England - Shelter

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:29 pm

This is worth a look on the migrants and schools issue

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some pretty unpleasant characters btl as you'd expect.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:34 pm

Though the line in the latest OJ piece that "much of the left" supposedly believe the WWC are thick brainwashed sheep is surely better directed at our political/media elite?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:40 pm

Well done to those Tweeting that refusing schooling to children of "illegal" immigrants is hardly compatible with Christian values.

[edited to correct Christina to Christian

]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:42 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Well done to those Tweeting that refusing schooling to children of "illegal" immigrants is hardly compatible with Christina values.

Aguilera?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:45 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Well done to those Tweeting that refusing schooling to children of "illegal" immigrants is hardly compatible with Christina values.
Aguilera?

Oh no you immortalised it.

Well not in fact, because I could admin it. But that would be unfair to PorFavor, whose typos I have famously immortalised on a number of occasions

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:51 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Owen Jones very funny this morning

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ave-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We have to compromise with the electorate. Really????

And Ian Lavery!!!??!
Owen Jones has always been a rather more nuanced and intelligent commentator than your tendency has been willing to admit.

And he seems to get the most grief these days from Corbynistas who see him as "backsliding". I have little doubt that if he had been made Jez's media supremo rather than Milne, both the leader and party would currently be in a somewhat better place

It is because he is somewhat more nuanced that he isn't.

Pooe sod is trapped by his earlier support for JC. Clear from the start he neither expected nor wanted him to win.

But, he is one of those guilty in the ending of Labour as a serious opposition. We shouldn't be too tolerant and forgiving.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:55 pm

Oh dear...the govt might have been able to get away with not disclosing this to the OBR but the National Audit Office are a different kettle of fish altogether.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 1:56 pm

Yeah, we know what you think about Labour's prospects SH.

Whereas some of us believe the NL template had outlived its usefulness and the party has to change to survive.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 2:03 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Owen Jones very funny this morning

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ave-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We have to compromise with the electorate. Really????

And Ian Lavery!!!??!
Owen Jones has always been a rather more nuanced and intelligent commentator than your tendency has been willing to admit.

And he seems to get the most grief these days from Corbynistas who see him as "backsliding". I have little doubt that if he had been made Jez's media supremo rather than Milne, both the leader and party would currently be in a somewhat better place
It is because he is somewhat more nuanced that he isn't.

Pooe sod is trapped by his earlier support for JC. Clear from the start he neither expected nor wanted him to win.

But, he is one of those guilty in the ending of Labour as a serious opposition. We shouldn't be too tolerant and forgiving.

Yes, lets blame Owen Jones, because it has nothing to do with people like Yvette Cooper introducing teh WCA, or Byrne and Reeves and their tougher than the tories rhetoric and no money left bullshit; it has nothing to do with Blair's illegal war, and grubbily whoring himself to any foreign dictatcor willing to give him some cash. It has nothinng to do with a nonsensical leadership election, and the snivelling lying shit the incompetent Blairites put up and supported against Corbyn; it has absolutely nothing to do with the contempt individuals like Kinnock - father and son - have shown labour voters and their constituents, and you can add slime like w streeting, bradshaw all pursuing a rather lose than let corbyn win strategy - they truly are genital warts on the foreskin of humanity. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with votes on retrospective legislation, or welfare, or murdering yemeni kids, and absolutely nothing to do with the vacuous incompetence and moral ignorance of the PLP or the intellectual bankruptcy of their arguments.

Let's blame Owen Jones and Corbyn instead.

Brexit, Trump, Corbyn twice - you are a know nothing blowhard stuck on repeat.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 2:12 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Though the line in the latest OJ piece that "much of the left" supposedly believe the WWC are thick brainwashed sheep is surely better directed at our political/media elite?

He's right to be critical of those who lazily label the white working class as thick, but the "brainwashed" bit is rather different.

Remember this from immediately after the referendum? "I've got my country back".... over and over again. Every person I saw interviewed in the street post-Brexit was parroting this phrase, all those who voted 'out' it seems had the same aim - to get their country back. They didn't all simultaneously come up with this idea, did they? Decades of propaganda had been preparing them for this moment.

The mistake is not to recognise the propaganda techniques employed by the right wing press and the Eurosceptics. The mistake is to think only unintelligent people are vulnerable to propaganda. Over 50% of the population voted to leave the EU - they clearly can't all have been below average intelligence, yet they all fell for the idea that leaving the EU would make their lives better, something which many of the facts, particularly in the way international trade works in our gobal age, doesn't really support.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 2:14 pm

Well actually, by definition about half the population *is* of "below average" intelligence. But I fully understand, and agree with, what you are more broadly saying

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 2:24 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Though the line in the latest OJ piece that "much of the left" supposedly believe the WWC are thick brainwashed sheep is surely better directed at our political/media elite?
He's right to be critical of those who lazily label the white working class as thick, but the "brainwashed" bit is rather different.

Remember this from immediately after the referendum? "I've got my country back".... over and over again. Every person I saw interviewed in the street post-Brexit was parroting this phrase, all those who voted 'out' it seems had the same aim - to get their country back. They didn't all simultaneously come up with this idea, did they? Decades of propaganda had been preparing them for this moment.

The mistake is not to recognise the propaganda techniques employed by the right wing press and the Eurosceptics. The mistake is to think only unintelligent people are vulnerable to propaganda. Over 50% of the population voted to leave the EU - they clearly can't all have been below average intelligence, yet they all fell for the idea that leaving the EU would make their lives better, something which many of the facts, particularly in the way international trade works in our gobal age, doesn't really support.

To be accurate, over 50% of the voters who turned out, voted to leave the EU. That's 30%ish of those eligible and 25%ish of the population.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:06 pm

A bit more about Gamergate that Adam spoke of earlier, it helps explain the brainwashing that produced both the Leave vote & Trump.

What Gamergate should have taught us about the 'alt-right'
The 2014 online hate-storm presaged the tactics of the Trump-loving far right movement. Prominent critics of the president elect should take note

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... hate-trump" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
edit to take a surplus "that" out

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:18 pm

Yes, lets blame Owen Jones, because it has nothing to do with people like Yvette Cooper introducing teh WCA, or Byrne and Reeves and their tougher than the tories rhetoric] and no money left bullshit

Read what Reeves actually said.

"We would be tougher [than the Conservatives]. If they don't take it [the offer of a job] they will forfeit their benefit. But there will also be the opportunities there under a Labour government.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... es-welfare" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's talking specifically about one thing- the long term unemployed turning down compulsory paid jobs that the government have created for them from the proceeds of a tax on bankers. It's a good policy. You know the dire social and health effects of long term unemployment?

Do they Greens have a better policy? Actually, they've a far worse one. The citizen's income would create loads more of it.

And you know Byrne's letter was as joke, in the tradition of Treasury Ministers making jokes?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:22 pm

While I'm here, a bit more on the Greens.

Can anyone see the "£30bn Tory cuts" that everybody supposedly voted for? Me neither.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:25 pm

Good to see you posting Tubby.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:30 pm

I'm also interested in this idea that Trump and Brexit is some sort of vindication of "the proper left".

They've got a Left Party in France. How are they doing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... _of_voting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Answer: getting killed by the FN.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:31 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Yes, lets blame Owen Jones, because it has nothing to do with people like Yvette Cooper introducing teh WCA, or Byrne and Reeves and their tougher than the tories rhetoric] and no money left bullshit
Read what Reeves actually said.

"We would be tougher [than the Conservatives]. If they don't take it [the offer of a job] they will forfeit their benefit. But there will also be the opportunities there under a Labour government.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... es-welfare" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's talking specifically about one thing- the long term unemployed turning down compulsory paid jobs that the government have created for them from the proceeds of a tax on bankers. It's a good policy. You know the dire social and health effects of long term unemployment?

Do they Greens have a better policy? Actually, they've a far worse one. The citizen's income would create loads more of it.

And you know Byrne's letter was as joke, in the tradition of Treasury Ministers making jokes?

Yes let's read exactly what she said.

"We are not the party of people on benefits. We don’t want to be seen, and we're not, the party to represent those who are out of work," she said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 14614.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indefensible rhetoric that demonses those in need of social security, a complete moral vaccum.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:31 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Good to see you posting Tubby.

Thank you.

Nice to see everyone. I was spending far too long on the internet in general, but good to pop back.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:34 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:While I'm here, a bit more on the Greens.

Can anyone see the "£30bn Tory cuts" that everybody supposedly voted for? Me neither.

So the cuts didnt happen, black is actually white, people who starved to death were actually faking it, and the UN were lying when they censured our government for its welfare cuts? or maybe the money was spent on workfare and other schemes that achieved nothing but cost a lot and feathered some private companies nests.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:36 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm also interested in this idea that Trump and Brexit is some sort of vindication of "the proper left".

They've got a Left Party in France. How are they doing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... _of_voting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Answer: getting killed by the FN.

Still more popular than Flanby, though?

Of course its not as simple as that (and never was) but the idea that what we are currently seeing is a crisis of the "sensible centre" is hard to dismiss.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:37 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm also interested in this idea that Trump and Brexit is some sort of vindication of "the proper left".

They've got a Left Party in France. How are they doing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... _of_voting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Answer: getting killed by the FN.

It's no vindication of the Left, it is a vindication of all those who have been saying the centre has crumbled because it offers no answers other than vindictive spite poured on the weakest and most vulnerable. IT is a vindication of all of us who said Labour has lost its moral compass and is no better than the tories, and cannot win unless it recconnects with those people, and it is a damning indictment of all of those who sat and sneered at those concerns who have been humiliatingly proven to be talking bollucks.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:39 pm

This is the article on Citizens Income that I found very persuasive, by Declan Gaffney.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... l-security" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The current UK government’s punitive sanctions regime makes the idea of unconditional benefits attractive. However, conditionality does not need to take such a severe form, and the risk that unconditional payments would encourage some people to drift into long-term worklessness can’t be discounted. The question is whether having the right financial incentives, as promised by UBI, is enough to prevent this happening.

A world of perfect markets inhabited by perfectly rational individuals is not a world we live in or will ever live in
Single parents in the UK offer a test case, as up to 2008 they were effectively in receipt of something very like an UBI, when not in employment. They had no obligation to actively seek work while tax credits ensured that most would be significantly better off in work. Employment rates had increased since the 1990s in response to improved incentives but remained relatively low, and from 2008 obligations to look for work were imposed. By 2014 the employment rate outside London had risen from 57% to 61%. In London the increase was dramatic from a lower baseline: from 45% to 57%.

The lesson is that incentives matter (as shown by the rise in employment prior to 2008) – but in the absence of conditionality, some parents who would otherwise have been working remained out of the labour market. Even allowing for the fact that many parents moved into low-paid part-time work, it is hard not to see the change since 2008 as on balance an improvement. By not having conditionality in place and relying solely on incentives, the system prior to 2008 led to more children living in workless households, a situation associated with poorer outcomes in later life.

As I understand it, the high level of employment basically follows from changes made in 2008 and earlier. The WCA, IDS etc have been basically a waste of time.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:43 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Good to see you posting Tubby.

Hear! Hear!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:53 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm also interested in this idea that Trump and Brexit is some sort of vindication of "the proper left".

They've got a Left Party in France. How are they doing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... _of_voting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Answer: getting killed by the FN.
It's no vindication of the Left, it is a vindication of all those who have been saying the centre has crumbled because it offers no answers other than vindictive spite poured on the weakest and most vulnerable. IT is a vindication of all of us who said Labour has lost its moral compass and is no better than the tories, and cannot win unless it recconnects with those people, and it is a damning indictment of all of those who sat and sneered at those concerns who have been humiliatingly proven to be talking bollucks.

The IFS found pretty significant differences on total spending, not to mention different distribution. Whatever you think of Brown, the redistribution was impressive.

They didn't find very much difference between "Red Tory" Labour and the "leftwing" SNP.

Brexit's another pretty big difference. Take Robert Chote, by no means the most pessimistic- £12bn a year to be cost by Brexit.

I think the Corbyn policy on investment is very good, and welcome it- even if he shouldn't use scary numbers. But current spending doesn't seem to have had much thought, because it's easier to say "tax loopholes".

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:56 pm

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Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:57 pm

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