Tuesday 13th December 2016

Post by **refitman** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 5:49 am

Morning all.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 7:40 am

Morning.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 7:43 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 9:17 am

I keep hearing how unreliable Southern Rail is and how, if you go to their website and they say trains are running, travellers turn up and, understandably, expect to be able to catch a train. However - train cancelled. Then in the next breath, travellers complain that train workers are on strike and shouldn't be allowed to be. Curious. You'd think people would be glad of some certainty.

And Chris Grayling talking rubbish as usual with no answer to how he is presiding over a rail service which is so bad that people are being turned down for jobs on the basis of their reliance on Southern Rail to get to and from aforementioned jobs.

Edited -typo

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 9:36 am

09:35

Inflation rises to 1.2% (Politics Live, Guardian)

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 9:44 am

Morning all.

Enjoyed the Mars and Milky Way post last night.

Grayling and Hunt's turn in the daily battle of Tory fluster cooks.

Johnson takes a well earned breather.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 10:31 am

THE 50 COMPANIES THAT OWN OVER A MILLION ACRES OF ENGLAND & WALES
https://whoownsengland.wordpress.com/20 ... and-wales/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It’s important to note that this list excludes the landholdings of private individuals, as the Land Registry refuses to disclose such information en masse, so many aristocratic estates are not listed. Notable by their absence, for example, are the Duke of Westminster’s huge Grosvenor Estate, and the Duchy of Cornwall, which appears to be registered in the private name of Prince Charles.

Taylor Wimpey, one of the largest UK housebuilding firms, own 14,684 acres – a startlingly large area, which raises questions about landbanking by developers, a practice that has drawn much criticism from politicians in recent years. And controversial for different reasons are the landholdings of Tesco, whose vast out-of-town superstore developments are attested to by these numbers, showing they own some 11,743 acres.

The data was disclosed by Land Registry in June 2015 in response to a freedom of information request, so the figures should be accurate to that date.* Subsequent requests for information on “area owned” – Land Registry lingo for its data on acreage – have been refused on the grounds that it is “not held” – despite, of course, having released it previously.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 10:43 am

gilsey wrote:THE 50 COMPANIES THAT OWN OVER A MILLION ACRES OF ENGLAND & WALES
https://whoownsengland.wordpress.com/20 ... and-wales/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It’s important to note that this list excludes the landholdings of private individuals, as the Land Registry refuses to disclose such information en masse, so many aristocratic estates are not listed. Notable by their absence, for example, are the Duke of Westminster’s huge Grosvenor Estate, and the Duchy of Cornwall, which appears to be registered in the private name of Prince Charles.

Taylor Wimpey, one of the largest UK housebuilding firms, own 14,684 acres – a startlingly large area, which raises questions about landbanking by developers, a practice that has drawn much criticism from politicians in recent years. And controversial for different reasons are the landholdings of Tesco, whose vast out-of-town superstore developments are attested to by these numbers, showing they own some 11,743 acres.

The data was disclosed by Land Registry in June 2015 in response to a freedom of information request, so the figures should be accurate to that date.* Subsequent requests for information on “area owned” – Land Registry lingo for its data on acreage – have been refused on the grounds that it is “not held” – despite, of course, having released it previously.

I guess you'd be able to build quite a number of houses on the Taylor Wimpey acres if so inclined.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 10:45 am

PorFavor wrote:
09:35

Inflation rises to 1.2% (Politics Live, Guardian)

From the business blog

Andrew Sentance, PwC’s chief economist, says Britain is now feeling the effect of the plunge in the pound since the Brexit vote.

And further price rises are on the horizon, he warns:

“Inflation is picking up as expected - to its highest level for over two years. Prices in the shops and on the garage forecourt are starting to reflect the big drop in sterling since the EU referendum result. Clothing prices have risen by over 4% since June and motor fuel prices are 7.4% up on a year ago.

“There is more inflation coming through the pipeline. The prices of UK manufactures are already 2.3% up on a year ago and the cost of raw materials, energy and other inputs into the manufacturing process are nearly 13% higher than a year ago. We should therefore expect inflation to rise to close to 3% by the end of next year, which will squeeze consumer spending and slow economic growth. We are leaving behind the very favourable world of near-zero inflation which has benefited consumers over the past couple of years.

On AS blog, in response to Keir Starmer

A Conservative party spokesman issued this statement in response to the extracts from Sir Keir Starmer’s speech. (See 9.13am.).........................

The truth is Labour just don’t believe Britain can thrive outside the EU,..........

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 10:53 am

I'm getting rather fedup with the keep calm and carryon push. Its too much of a know your place, you need to accept your lot. Its time for one of the other originals.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:06 am

gilsey wrote: On AS blog, in response to Keir Starmer
A Conservative party spokesman issued this statement in response to the extracts from Sir Keir Starmer’s speech. (See 9.13am.).........................

The truth is Labour just don’t believe Britain can thrive outside the EU,..........

Pathetic non-response.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:22 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote: On AS blog, in response to Keir Starmer
A Conservative party spokesman issued this statement in response to the extracts from Sir Keir Starmer’s speech. (See 9.13am.).........................

The truth is Labour just don’t believe Britain can thrive outside the EU,..........
Pathetic non-response.

"The truth is", says Conservative spokesman.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:35 am

Not political but an appeal:

Bradley Lowery has approx only 2 months to live. His last wish to receive lots of xmas cards.

Please will you post him a card & encourage others to do the same ?

His address is:

5 Attlee Avenue
Blackhall Rocks
Hartlepool
TS27 4BY

Thank you.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:38 am

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/suspiciou ... -1-8286897

A man on his way to work found the suspicious item and notified South Yorkshire Police.
Local firms have been evacuated and buses have been diverted away from the package.
No other details have yet been released.

'Evacuated' is stretching it a bit, all we've done is moved to a snack cabin at far end of building,
the no other details bit is right though.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:43 am

tinybgoat wrote:http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/suspiciou ... -1-8286897

A man on his way to work found the suspicious item and notified South Yorkshire Police.
Local firms have been evacuated and buses have been diverted away from the package.
No other details have yet been released.
'Evacuated' is stretching it a bit, all we've done is moved to a snack cabin at far end of building,
the no other details bit is right though.

Hope it turns out to be nothing - stay safe

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:49 am

Len McCluskey too busy running Labour, says Unite leadership rival
Gerard Coyne declares his candidacy and says many union members feel leadership is too remote and out of touch

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ship-rival" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:59 am

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ng-9448313

The President elect was scheduled to hold a press conference on Thursday, to explain what ties he’ll cut with this property and resort businesses.
Instead, he took to Twitter last night, promising a press conference in the near future and saying his sons will manage his firms while he's President.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:04 pm

Reports of Aleppo civilians shot on the spot by pro-regime forces – UN

UN spokesman describes ‘complete meltdown of humanity’ as troops loyal to Syrian president close in on last opposition-held areas (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... eppo-syria

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:06 pm

Rex Tillerson named as Donald Trump's secretary of state

Senators from Republican and Democrat parties have raised concerns about ExxonMobil chief’s close ties to Vladimir Putin (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... hief-putin

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:08 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Rex Tillerson named as Donald Trump's secretary of state

Senators from Republican and Democrat parties have raised concerns about ExxonMobil chief’s close ties to Vladimir Putin (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... hief-putin

Saves having to go via WikiLeaks.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:12 pm

Hello.

The Dirty Digger's minions don't do an awful lot of, well, digging, do they?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even if you're not a commuter, it takes 5 minutes of research to realise what a shambles Southern Rail is, regardless of strikes. "Journalism" for you.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Reports of Aleppo civilians shot on the spot by pro-regime forces – UN

UN spokesman describes ‘complete meltdown of humanity’ as troops loyal to Syrian president close in on last opposition-held areas (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... eppo-syria

Quite a few previous "reports" from Aleppo (eg of "a quarter of a million people trapped and facing slaughter") have proved distinctly exaggerated.

I have no doubt that bad things are going on there, but question what can be done about them.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:43 pm

Oi! Adam!
Misunderstanding - or rather seeking clarity in a very weird time.
Many apologies.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:57 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Hello.

The Dirty Digger's minions don't do an awful lot of, well, digging, do they?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even if you're not a commuter, it takes 5 minutes of research to realise what a shambles Southern Rail is, regardless of strikes. "Journalism" for you.

They're just the first (apart from Scotrail) to get to this point-ie new trains coming in (ordered by government for sound reasons) are driver only operated.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:57 pm

Fighting talk on Brexit from Christian Woolmar.

http://labourlist.org/2016/12/christian ... -disaster/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 1:00 pm

Starmer definitely fighting hard Brexit? Excellent.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 1:03 pm

On Southern specifically, the lines are hugely busy. It would make sense to have conductors on nearly all the trains. I don't know what the state of negotiations is. But there are other lines where that won't make so much sense, and I guess the government is very wary of a precedent being set.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 1:08 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Len McCluskey too busy running Labour, says Unite leadership rival
Gerard Coyne declares his candidacy and says many union members feel leadership is too remote and out of touch

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ship-rival" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my emphasis)

I wish people wouldn't do this to each other.
Legitimate criticism is well enough.
Let's don't get ugly.
Make a good case for your leadership position bid and leave malice and gossip out of it.
Examine your heart and conscience, act in a straight line and do a competent job.

Good-afternoon, everyone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 1:23 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Starmer definitely fighting hard Brexit? Excellent.

He always has been, tbf.

Certain others in the leadership, I am not quite so sure about.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 1:29 pm

Here's Keir Starmer's speech

https://labourlist.org/2016/12/this-is- ... r-starmer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this-is-the-battle-of-our-times-labour-will-fight-against-a-hard-brexit-keir-starmer

It certainly chimes with my views!

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 1:44 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/suspiciou ... -1-8286897

A man on his way to work found the suspicious item and notified South Yorkshire Police.
Local firms have been evacuated and buses have been diverted away from the package.
No other details have yet been released.
'Evacuated' is stretching it a bit, all we've done is moved to a snack cabin at far end of building,
the no other details bit is right though.
Hope it turns out to be nothing - stay safe

Thanks, All clear (just in time for lunch:), army bomb squad came out from Chester & carried out controlled explosion.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 2:16 pm

"Get Tatchell" has been an ugly spectacle as it is. Suggestions the interrupted would be agenda setting speech wasn't on domestic violence at all, but on Saudi Arabia.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 2:22 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:"Get Tatchell" has been an ugly spectacle as it is. Suggestions the interrupted would be agenda setting speech wasn't on domestic violence at all, but on Saudi Arabia.

Are we in post-truth again? I though all pre-speech promo was on domestic violence ?
(Or maybe I've just stopped listening to them)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 2:25 pm

Reactionary Chris Grayling is doing to railways what he did to prisons - and Southern is just the start
The Transport Secretary is a railway baron who cannot see he is part of the problem, not part of the solution - no wonder he is hotly tipped to be sacked

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/re ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 2:48 pm

Another long and interesting read

The Death of British Business
Simon Head

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/10/18 ... -business/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:10 pm

Thanks for the update Tinybgoat. Relieved to hear things are under control and you and others are ok.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:15 pm

This is the exchange I saw.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like it had all sorts in. I don't see why the Morning Star would put so much emphasis on domestic violence.

Here's one of the Morning Star crowd. Corbyn was about to speak about Syria, silly Tatchell, don't you know?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't trust this crowd. Is that even the final version of the speech? And if that's it, lots of people will agree with Tatchell that it's not exactly much of a response to the issue.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:19 pm

It has to be admitted that the Morning Star has not exactly covered itself in glory today.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:22 pm

That's a stonker of a speech by Starmer.
Inclusive to the 100% whilst giving both barrels to May and the Lib Dems. Neat trick.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:23 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Here's Keir Starmer's speech

https://labourlist.org/2016/12/this-is- ... r-starmer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this-is-the-battle-of-our-times-labour-will-fight-against-a-hard-brexit-keir-starmer

It certainly chimes with my views!

It's an excellent speech I disagree with on one fundamental point. I haven't travelled all over the UK recently and Keir Starmer has.
I've no reason to doubt his description of what he experienced in those places. Do read the entire speech. It's powerful. I can't agree
with the point below. Again, don't let it put you off from reading or listening to the entire speech. I'm not just saying that. It's moving.

"...as a matter of principle, no serious political party can claim to accept and respect the outcome of the referendum
and in the next breath say that it will seek to prevent the Prime Minister from even starting the Article 50 negotiations.

A short point; but an important one."

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:26 pm

StephenDolan wrote:That's a stonker of a speech by Starmer.
Inclusive to the 100% whilst giving both barrels to May and the Lib Dems. Neat trick.

Exactly, this. Precise, scathing, truthful and it sounds like Labour may have a plan and Tories don't.
It's a strong Labour speech though I can't see my way clear on the point I mentioned up the thread.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:29 pm

What a bunch of silly bellends the Morning Star are.

Louise Raw ‏@LouiseRawAuthor 3h3 hours ago

Oh look, @nickcohen4 & you team of bully boys- a man said the same! Going after him? Thought not

Some else did it too is pathetic. So is invoking sexism.
It's referring to the independent who had one column. They didn't give the front page over to attacking Tatchell in that stupid tabloid way, or indeed have another column splashed on the front page.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:37 pm

@PaulfromYorkshire

Thanks for the link to Keir Starmer's speech.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:40 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Reactionary Chris Grayling is doing to railways what he did to prisons - and Southern is just the start
The Transport Secretary is a railway baron who cannot see he is part of the problem, not part of the solution - no wonder he is hotly tipped to be sacked

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/re ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure anyone is going to be doing all that different to Grayling on Southern. Nobody in Government is going to want to spend too much of the savings from the new Driver Only Operated trains on unnecessary conductors or, as is also possible, spending millions, to re-engineer the new trains.

On this occasion it might be unfair to sack Grayling, though he's overdue from other disastrous jobs.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:41 pm

Let's hope that Jeremy Corbyn closely associates himself, both by word and deed, to the Keir Starmer speech. I notice that John McDonnell got a mention but didn't spot any reference to the Party leader (although I did read through the text very quickly).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:44 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Reactionary Chris Grayling is doing to railways what he did to prisons - and Southern is just the start
The Transport Secretary is a railway baron who cannot see he is part of the problem, not part of the solution - no wonder he is hotly tipped to be sacked

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/re ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not sure anyone is going to be doing all that different to Grayling on Southern. Nobody in Government is going to want to spend too much of the savings from the new Driver Only Operated trains on unnecessary conductors or, as is also possible, spending millions, to re-engineer the new trains.

On this occasion it might be unfair to sack Grayling, though he's overdue from other disastrous jobs.

I can't conceive of any eventuality which would involve it being "unfair to sack Grayling".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:53 pm

"We [Labour] have prevaricated and triangulated to such an extent that we have been squeezed
on both sides, by leavers on the one side.. and Remainers on the other...It is the path to oblivion.

Instead of worrying about the potential electoral implications of fighting to stay in the EU despite the referendum result,
we should be highlighting the disaster that Brexit will be. If we know that leaving is damaging for our economy and our
people, then we have to say so. Loudly and clearly. And with a united voice.

This seems self-evident and yet no one seems to be articulating it. Nearly all our MPs supported Remain. And two thirds
of our supporters did so. It is not, therefore, just a few of the “liberal elite” who want us to stay in. If remaining is the
majority view in the party, then surely we should adopt that policy positively and emphasise it in our speeches.

Constitutionally, the referendum is not binding and just because the Remainers lost does not mean we should not continue the fight.

We should oppose what the government is doing when it is damaging Britain. We will undoubtedly lose some people along the way.
A minority in the party will not like it. But we will gain others. Of course it is a gamble. But less of one than sitting on our hands
while the party haemorrhages votes because we lack the courage of our convictions."

- Christian Wolmar
LabourList
13th December 2016

http://labourlist.org/2016/12/christian ... -disaster/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't think Remain Labour MPs, like Starmer, for example, are countenancing going ahead with Article 50 legislation for selfish, superficial reasons.

I agree with Wolmar's ideas above. I might be wrong. I might not understand essential information regarding the recent EU referendum result, business,
politics and the UK's future. I'm trying to keep open-minded and awake to information.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 3:59 pm

It looks that stupid though the Morning Star have been, Corbyn's detractors are making something out of nothing with the idea that the speech was changed or rebranded to make Tatchell look worse. Saudi and women's rights do go together in a speech fairly easily.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 5:50 pm

Blue or yellow hairnet,alternate?Decisions,decisions.I hope pork pie consumers,appreciate the trauma caused by such things.Doesn't apply to me,I still maintain a full head of hair,albeit self highlighting in flecks of grey,but is it still a hairnet if you haven't got any hair?We only pack the already wrapped/packaged the bloody things in wondrous displays,or as I call them cardboard boxes,which we assemble and label but food hygiene rules must be obeyed.If someone finds a missing finger or two suitably gloved please return to .....

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 13 Dec, 2016 5:52 pm

Afternoon all. Been a little bus scurrying around doing things but noticed this.

NHS 'must be more open on preventable patient deaths'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38305033

NHS trusts will start revealing details of preventable deaths as part of shake-up in the way they investigate cases.

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt said there needed to be improvements after a report criticised the way the NHS dealt with patient deaths in England.

The Care Quality Commision said current practices were inadequate and often caused more suffering to families.

Mr Hunt said rules would be published next year setting out how cases should be identified and looked into.

and

But Mr Hunt acknowledged there was an "inconsistency" in the way NHS trusts approached the issue of preventable deaths and learning from what had happened was "not prioritised" enough.

He said by publishing data on avoidable deaths from next April, patients and the public would be able to see which hospitals were learning from their mistakes.

but

The report says part of the problem lies in what type of death should be investigated.

Terms like "preventable", "avoidable" and "unexpected" mean different things to different trusts.

Many people who contributed to the review opposed calling a death either unexpected or avoidable as it lacked scientific clarity.

The CQC say improving the standard definition of each word, in discussion with families, should form part of the work to develop a national framework.

Given that this has been a long-running issue, by now you would have expected the Dept of Health and the regulators (not the NHS since it applies to them - you can't allow self-regulation) to come up with standard agreed definitions and procedures.

Publishing bogus stats when no-one can actually agree on what makes a death "avoidable" or "preventable" doesn't help anyone.