Tuesday 20th December 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 8:01 am

Hell.
o.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 8:39 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... r-figures/

I don't think £30 million is particularly significant, compared to total NHS costs, but think it represents the recoverable costs (ie. treatment billed for by hospitals).
Confusingly, the article gives a yearly figure of £30 million, but then gives accumulated debt over 4 years for individual hospitals.
I suppose if it was trying to cause trouble it could have highlighted unrecoverable costs instead.
https://fullfact.org/health/health-tour ... -who-pays/

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 8:42 am

Fears after government abolishes civil service's child poverty unit
MPs and charities say political focus on reducing level of child poverty in UK has been lost as team is merged into Department for Work and Pensions

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... verty-unit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 9:17 am

Good to see some leading Labour figures still challenging the Government in the run up to Christmas.

Angela Rayner MPVerified account
‏@AngelaRayner
Instead of Tory MPs touring the media smearing Trade Unions they should be urging employers to get back to talks and find a resolution

Dan JarvisVerified account
‏@DanJarvisMP
In response to my parliamentary question, the government admit they have abolished the Child Poverty Unit

The second being the same as AAW's post above.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 9:30 am

Look at the shocking ignorance in the DWP's response to Jarvis.

A DWP spokeswoman said it was “nonsense” to suggest that the end of the standalone child poverty unit meant the government was not committed to its work.

She said: “We are absolutely committed to tackling poverty and in the new year we will publish a social justice paper outlining our plans for the years ahead.

“Work is the best way out of poverty and there are record levels of low unemployment. By increasing the national living wage and taking millions of people out of paying any income tax, we are ensuring it always pays to be in work.”

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 9:51 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... zero-hours" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

working-homeless-britain-economy-minimum-wage-zero-hours

Britain’s shame: the people who are homeless, even though they’re in work
Aditya Chakrabortty

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:01 am

tinybgoat wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... r-figures/

I don't think £30 million is particularly significant, compared to total NHS costs, but think it represents the recoverable costs (ie. treatment billed for by hospitals).
Confusingly, the article gives a yearly figure of £30 million, but then gives accumulated debt over 4 years for individual hospitals.
I suppose if it was trying to cause trouble it could have highlighted unrecoverable costs instead.
https://fullfact.org/health/health-tour ... -who-pays/

We spend something like £12bn in overseas aid to help foreigners, but resent a mere £30m spent on making ill people better? That the British public swallow this bull designed to create false reasons to dismantle our free at the point of use universal healthcare is so depressing. It's not like these people are all spivs or scammers, they must all be in genuine need of medical care or they wouldn't have received any in the first place and we want to ruin our universal healthcare system for ourselves in order to achieve the ability to do what, exactly? Turn them away if they can't pay? Not even US hospitals do that. I wonder how much money British tourists owe to US hospitals? No doubt US hospitals pursue outstanding bills far more aggressively than UK ones, but if people don't have the money they will simply end up going bankrupt and the hospital still doesn't get its money. Indeed, I believe hospital debt and the money futilely spent on trying to recover it is part of why the cost per capita of US healthcare is so high. We surely save far, far more by not wasting time and money on bureaucracy (or at least did before the internal market and privately outsourced services) than we can gain by knowing someone is liable for payment before we treat them anyway because no civilised country, not even the US, would turn away someone in genuine medical need.

Bloody Tories.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:25 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... zero-hours

working-homeless-britain-economy-minimum-wage-zero-hours

Britain’s shame: the people who are homeless, even though they’re in work
Aditya Chakrabortty

This relates to the story I linked to yesterday about a family in Bristol who are facing being made homeless because their landlady is kicking them out to make more in rent from multiple occupancy tenants. It's very clear from the story that our whole system for dealing with homelessness is not geared up to support people in work, with an offer of emergency accommodation in a location that makes retaining a job impossible considered adequate by the council. Back in the 19th century mine owners would build cottages for their workers to live in, charging them rent which was no doubt extortionate but not so extortionate they couldn't actually afford to live there, as that would be pretty stupid. As far as I can tell, as a nation we have become very stupid indeed.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:37 am

The child poverty debate will be at 2.30 pm today for anyone interested.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:41 am

Farage blames Merkel for the German truck attack

Farage also attacked Brendan Cox, the widower of Jo Cox. Nick Ferrari, the presenter, asked Farage about Cox’s Twitter response to what Farage said this morning.

Chris Bryant MP
✔
@RhonddaBryant

The sheer nastiness of Farage sometimes takes my breath away. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
10:03 AM - 20 Dec 2016

27 27 Retweets
33 (Politics Live, Guardian)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:41 am

Nigel Farage in unbelievable attack on Brendan Cox for backing organisations that "pursue violent and very undemocratic means".

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:41 am

Snap PF

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:41 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Nigel Farage in unbelievable attack on Brendan Cox for backing organisations that "pursue violent and very undemocratic means".

Snap.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:42 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:42 am

We're very snappy, this morning!

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:43 am

Willow904 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... r-figures/

I don't think £30 million is particularly significant, compared to total NHS costs, but think it represents the recoverable costs (ie. treatment billed for by hospitals).
Confusingly, the article gives a yearly figure of £30 million, but then gives accumulated debt over 4 years for individual hospitals.
I suppose if it was trying to cause trouble it could have highlighted unrecoverable costs instead.
https://fullfact.org/health/health-tour ... -who-pays/
We spend something like £12bn in overseas aid to help foreigners, but resent a mere £30m spent on making ill people better? That the British public swallow this bull designed to create false reasons to dismantle our free at the point of use universal healthcare is so depressing. It's not like these people are all spivs or scammers, they must all be in genuine need of medical care or they wouldn't have received any in the first place and we want to ruin our universal healthcare system for ourselves in order to achieve the ability to do what, exactly? Turn them away if they can't pay? Not even US hospitals do that. I wonder how much money British tourists owe to US hospitals? No doubt US hospitals pursue outstanding bills far more aggressively than UK ones, but if people don't have the money they will simply end up going bankrupt and the hospital still doesn't get its money. Indeed, I believe hospital debt and the money futilely spent on trying to recover it is part of why the cost per capita of US healthcare is so high. We surely save far, far more by not wasting time and money on bureaucracy (or at least did before the internal market and privately outsourced services) than we can gain by knowing someone is liable for payment before we treat them anyway because no civilised country, not even the US, would turn away someone in genuine medical need.

Bloody Tories.

I'd have thought the cost would have more than been made up for from increased revenue due to people visiting our country in the first place.
Presumably the story is timed to distract from NHS problems, but it could equally be spun as a success: The gvt. has apparantly identified £500 million a year as being recoverable, so if £30 million isn't being recovered that(possibly,can't be sure because of the way the figures are given) means a significant amount is. Gits.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:46 am

Since there's no hope of Nigel Farage shutting up, is it ok if I hate him?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:47 am

There are times when the Farage "mask" slips. His quasi-fascistic rant on the morning of the referendum result was one occasion, this is another.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:50 am

I think he enjoys the notoriety tbh. Not interested in converting others to his cause.

The media need to stop normalising him. Don't ask for his bigoted opinion. The interviewer/booker will have a good idea what NF will say.

Don't allow the terms of discussion to be set by his ilk.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:55 am

PorFavor wrote:We're very snappy, this morning!

Yes my kids at that point would say Jinx

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:56 am

StephenDolan wrote:I think he enjoys the notoriety tbh. Not interested in converting others to his cause.

The media need to stop normalising him. Don't ask for his bigoted opinion. The interviewer/booker will have a good idea what NF will say.

Don't allow the terms of discussion to be set by his ilk.

The media need to read George Lakoff.

Edit, and the Labour media team.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:17 am

Morning.

Hope all are well. Have been busy, some friends moving so saying goodbye to them and making some new ones. Also we're taking over the care of a stray cat, a lovely gentlemanly tabby with a big face and long white socks.

Some good news from Wales is that former Plaid leader Lord Elis-Thomas has said he will support Welsh Labour in government for for their term. He's been critical of Leanne Wood and thinks Plaid didn't deal with the negotiations after the Welsh Assembly election well. Now, hopefully, Welsh Labour won't have any problems with getting what they want through the Senedd.

Now, anyone for a slice of Italian amaretto cake ? Homemade and pretty good.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:17 am

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... d-12345148" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Link about the Elis-Thomas story.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:20 am

There was no great enthusiasm for any FTN Awards this year, which is fine, so I'm going to unilaterally give Richard Littlejohn one for this

Merry Xmas Everybody
Are you stranding the commuters on the line?
Are you striking on the railways all the time?
Do you wave an Aslef banner?
Are you in the RMT?
Do you worship Arthur Scargill just like me?
So here we go, let’s wreck Christmas,
Make sure no one’s having fun,
Look to the miners’ strike,
We’ve only just begun.
Are they waiting for the family to arrive?
Do they need an operation to survive?
Do they have to use the railway,
So they can get to work?
Call it off, you say? Don’t be a berk.
So here we go, let’s wreck Christmas,
Make sure no one’s having fun,
Look to the good old days,
We’ve only just begun.
So here we go, let's wreck Christmas, make sure no one's having fun
So here we go, let's wreck Christmas, make sure no one's having fun
Are you painting Labour slogans on the wall?
Are you hoping that the Government will fall?
If you want a revolution
Let’s start with Southern Rail
Sign up to Momentum, we can’t fail.
So here we go, let’s wreck Christmas,
Make sure no one’s having fun,
Look to the Eighties, now,
We’ve only just begun.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:21 am

Be warned there are five more where that came from!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:24 am

@PaulfromYorkshire

Thanks. I think.

Anyway - I thought everyone was anxious to revisit the "good old days"? (Hence "Brexit".)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:25 am

Hope Not Hate suggests it is considering suing Farage over his 'outrageous' accusation

Turning back to Nigel Farage for a moment, Hope Not Hate has issued a response. It said in a statement:

We are aware of a serious and potentially libellous statement made about Hope Not Hate by Nigel Farage on LBC radio this morning.

We have no idea on what Mr Farage bases his outrageous comments. Hope Not Hate has a proud history of campaigning against extremism and hatred.

We will not be making any further comment until we have had the opportunity to consult with our lawyers.

From AS blog https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... e#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:27 am

Turning back to Nigel Farage for a moment, Hope Not Hate has issued a response. It said in a statement:

We are aware of a serious and potentially libellous statement made about Hope Not Hate by Nigel Farage on LBC radio this morning.

We have no idea on what Mr Farage bases his outrageous comments. Hope Not Hate has a proud history of campaigning against extremism and hatred.

We will not be making any further comment until we have had the opportunity to consult with our lawyers. (Politics Live, Guardian)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:28 am

Snap! -

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:29 am

@AngryAsWell

Snap.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:29 am

Becoming a bit of a habit, this

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:34 am

Crowd funding will do the job.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:34 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Becoming a bit of a habit, this

I was just about to say that - perhaps I'll not bother now!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:51 am

Andrew Sparrow is playing a game of "Sturgeon Says" over at the Guardian.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:59 am

Surely other political parties are going to condemn Nigel Farage? No?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:02 pm

They may have decided that ignoring him is "better" (not sure if it is, though)

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:03 pm

PorFavor wrote:Surely other political parties are going to condemn Nigel Farage? No?

Blimey, haven't Sturgeon or Farron?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:06 pm

@Willow904

US emergency rooms (ERs) aren't obliged to do anything more than 'stabilise' an injured or ill person without funds or documented medical insurance
prior to putting them outside their doors. Therefore, treatment varies. I'm not blaming US medical personnel or any one person for this. US ERs are
often crowded, chaotic and staffed by over-worked personnel, especially in urban areas, where most people live.

US healthcare provision isn't adequate, cost-effective or based upon sound public safety policy. People can wander US streets giving
others their virus ultimately causing a pandemic because they've not been properly observed or treated for their symptoms earlier.

The NHS is a successful, decades-old, universal healthcare provision system costing far less than other nations' good healthcare provision systems.

There's a lot of money to be made in healthcare, housing, transport, energy and communications. Some powerful people want to gain more than enough
leaving others with not enough. I don't get this. I love being part of an effective, functional team making sure everyone in the room is more or less satisfied
getting their needs met. I'm not unusual, I've worked with others wanting the same.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:07 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:07 pm

Farage no longer being leader means that he has to come out with some outrageous statement to get himself heard - he's afraid that he'll simply slide into obscurity soon.

I notice others are pitching into this too - anyone describing themselves as a 'libertarian' seems to be a code that says 'Actually I am a complete dick'.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:08 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Surely other political parties are going to condemn Nigel Farage? No?
Blimey, haven't Sturgeon or Farron?

Not so far that I've been able to detect (and I've scoured the Guardian's "Sturgeon Says" supplement).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:10 pm

Also, when it comes to Twitter bios "classical liberal" is one of the surest indicators of an unfeeling sociopath

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:10 pm

Willow904 wrote:We spend something like £12bn in overseas aid to help foreigners, but resent a mere £30m spent on making ill people better? That the British public swallow this bull designed to create false reasons to dismantle our free at the point of use universal healthcare is so depressing. It's not like these people are all spivs or scammers, they must all be in genuine need of medical care or they wouldn't have received any in the first place and we want to ruin our universal healthcare system for ourselves in order to achieve the ability to do what, exactly? Turn them away if they can't pay? Not even US hospitals do that. I wonder how much money British tourists owe to US hospitals? No doubt US hospitals pursue outstanding bills far more aggressively than UK ones, but if people don't have the money they will simply end up going bankrupt and the hospital still doesn't get its money. Indeed, I believe hospital debt and the money futilely spent on trying to recover it is part of why the cost per capita of US healthcare is so high. We surely save far, far more by not wasting time and money on bureaucracy (or at least did before the internal market and privately outsourced services) than we can gain by knowing someone is liable for payment before we treat them anyway because no civilised country, not even the US, would turn away someone in genuine medical need.

Bloody Tories.

(cJA edit)

Brilliant, this.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:12 pm

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Hope all are well. Have been busy, some friends moving so saying goodbye to them and making some new ones. Also we're taking over the care of a stray cat, a lovely gentlemanly tabby with a big face and long white socks.

Some good news from Wales is that former Plaid leader Lord Elis-Thomas has said he will support Welsh Labour in government for for their term. He's been critical of Leanne Wood and thinks Plaid didn't deal with the negotiations after the Welsh Assembly election well. Now, hopefully, Welsh Labour won't have any problems with getting what they want through the Senedd.

Now, anyone for a slice of Italian amaretto cake ? Homemade and pretty good.

Yes, please!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:17 pm

I suspect Nigel Farage is trying to curry favour with Donald Trump.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:20 pm

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband 38m38 minutes ago
Granted urgent question by the Speaker at 1230pm on Murdoch bid for Sky.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:22 pm

Eat your words Garage

The Independent ‏@Independent 42s42 seconds ago
German media reports that police have 'the wrong man' following Berlin attack http://ind.pn/2hDtW5G" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:29 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Be warned there are five more where that came from!

He's written five of them?
All the good things he counts on being available for him are only there because we agree to work together sharing fairly.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:32 pm

Aditya Chakrabortty on the shocking fact that large numbers of working people are homeless

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 1:54 pm

John 'Goldfinger' Palmer was 'unlawfully killed'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-38377329

Notorious criminal John "Goldfinger" Palmer was shot six times in a "contract-style" killing, an inquest has heard.

The 65-year-old was found dead in the garden of his gated home in South Weald in June 2015.

Although Essex Police originally thought he died of natural causes, it emerged he had been shot six times.