Saturday 7th & Sunday 8th January 2017

Post by **refitman** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 9:20 am

Morning all.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 9:51 am

Morning and thanks Refitman.

Following on from yesterday:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I dread to think what could happen, it is not just that they are reducing staff on trains to dangerous levels, but also very few staff on platforms or anywhere, really. The lifts were locked because of the incidence of homeless people sheltering in them. Goodness knows what will happen when they decide to go driverless too. Staffless, driverless, no place for humans then.
Trains aren't "dangerous". This refers to the last year but one, but I can't see the final figures.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /42807.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The total number of crimes committed on the railway has declined in the past decade. There were 10 consecutive years of crime reduction up to 2013-14.[36] The BTP told us:

It is predicted that by the end of 2013/14 there will have been a reduction of 25,717 offences (40%) in crimes on the overground railway since 2003/04. In terms of crimes per million passengers, the rate has fallen from 63.33 in 2003/04 to an expected 24.24 for year end 2013/14. Non-notifiable crime has fallen from 40.49 to 22.21 crimes per million passengers over the same period. In 2012/13 Transport for London's rail-based systems had 9.4 crimes per million passenger journeys and the predicted figure for 2013/14 shows a further 16% decrease. BTP's overall detection rate remains constant at around 40%, which compares favourably with that of forces in England and Wales.

Looking beyond the headline figures, we examined the number of crimes and detection rate in relation to particular offences committed on the railway. Comparing the statistics from 2003-04 with those for 2013-14, we identified that

· Robbery reduced by 82% with a current detection rate of 42%;

· Line of route offences reduced by 72% with a current detection rate of 24%;

· Motor vehicle/cycle offences reduced by 35% with a current detection rate of 37%;

· Theft of passenger property reduced by 53% with a current detection rate of 7%.
That's not to say staff (and police) won't need to be deployed in places and at times, not just for safety reasons, but for help to particular passengers. But wanting conductors everywhere and station staff everywhere is the equivalent of "bobbies on the beat"- ie expensive and probably not all that effective.

Yet without such provision, the current situation, where disabled people have huge difficulties with public transport, especially those with mobility problems, will never improve. Until there is enough ease and acceptance, i.e. a proper visibility and accessibility for such people, then the public too will think there is no need for any provision. So all the noises made about disabled people not needing any special support, such as the financial ones that have in recent years been stripped away, are empty vacuous nonsense, because at the end of the day not everyone is able to fight their way through the system or the inculcated prejudice to a situation where being on public transport is possible to be routine and part of a normal day. Especially relevant as people are having disability vehicles taken away, thus shrinking their world further. And drivers having to deal with ramps surely will play havoc with timetables?

There is, I discovered, a conversation about this on the G.

I am intersted in this matter as I am contemplating first steps in tackling buses, and the inevitable confrontations I am likely to have with busdrivers, young mums and passengers who are likely not to give me room to back my chair into the only alotted and legal space provided.

The conversation I mention goes into detail of siting of such spaces on trains, not pleasant, as I also found out when being in a companion carer role. Yet there are large numbers of disabled people who would use trains if it was not such a wearing experience. Some of these people are productive workers, now being pushed out of the workplace by things like lack of provision, which the EA is supposed to protect. It is not at all about having 'bobbies on the beat' type provision. There is low uptake of provision because it is unreliable, and because people refuse to think measures through. It is not as if we have a shortage of people to help with provision, it's that every excuse is made to keep provision at the bare minimum legal requirement so as to maximise profit. Which in essence is not what public transport should really be about.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 11:28 am

seeingclearly:

"I am intersted in this matter as I am contemplating first steps in tackling buses, and the inevitable confrontations I am likely to have with busdrivers, young mums and passengers who are likely not to give me room to back my chair into the only alotted and legal space provided."

I hope you don't mind me butting in, but I hope I may be able to reassure you a little. I am a bus user on a very unreliable service that I have very few good words for, but it is regularly used by young mums with prams and by wheelchair users. I have never once seen anyone fail to move to let either, and especially a wheelchair user, get into their place and, more importantly, I have never seen a driver who has failed to see that a wheelchair user finds his or her place, and given them all the time needed. I don't think I live anywhere special, and if my experience is anything to go by, those confrontations you anticipate may not be as inevitable as you fear. I hope that proves to be the case.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 11:36 am

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/th ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theresa May vows to bring down suicide rates as she offers more help for people with mental health problems

Like with immigration, May would be better off stating practical steps she plans to take rather than commit herself to reducing something over which she has no control. More mental health beds, more mental healthcare money, more support for people with mental health issues via the benefits system, for instance. Saying she would like to see better outcomes, whilst cutting back all the things put in place in the past to achieve those better outcomes, is becoming a tedious habit with the Tories.

Mrs May is expected to set out steps which schools can take to identify and assist mentally vulnerable pupils, including those whose mental welfare may be affected by the pressures of social media.

And she is expected to detail measures employers can take to help staff forced to take time off work due to mental health problems.

This is the very worst kind of passing the buck. Schools can identify mentally vulnerable pupils, but to what end? If the problem is long delays in getting an appointment with a paediatrician, schools knowing they have children who need help they can't access is hardly a solution.

Likewise I don't see how employers can help people forced to give up work through mental illness. They can keep a job open, but surely the feasibility of this is dependent on how quickly the employee can access help via the NHS to treat their condition. Again this comes back to the delays in treatment caused by Tory cuts. It's been nearly 7 years now, yet still the Tories are acting like they're having to clear up someone else's mess. That they're still being allowed to get away with that is one of the most depressing things about politics at the moment.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 11:46 am

Fake news out to distort German elections now.

German police quash Breitbart story of mob setting fire to Dortmund church
Country’s politicians warn against fake news after Breitbart website said group chanting ‘Allahu Akbar’ vandalised church on New Year’s Eve

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... und-church" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:00 pm

FWIW our initial problems related to not enough time to position,taking corners too fast etc,with polite mention to driver and letter to company with specific concerns and information as to what training.Assurances made,specific to route,and reiteration to all drivers with follow up letter to enquire if still problems.Some years ago.Regularity and familiarity with drivers and passengers made it a friendly experience.Realise we are fortunate in bus design,position on route,frequent service.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:03 pm

School funding cuts worse than predicted. JAMs hit hardest as school budgets plummet

https://www.teachers.org.uk/news-events ... -predicted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:07 pm

Richard Murphy
‏@RichardJMurphy
The government is planning tax cuts for big business costing at least £6 billion a year whilst the NHS is in 'humanitarian crisis'

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:10 pm

Trivia alert (well it is me).

Had toast this morning. With JAM.
Am one bad-ass diet-busting mother****er.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:11 pm

PS. Was apricot jam.
(for the purposes of showing off).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:13 pm

"the higher you build your barrier the taller I become"

whether circumstantial,societal,biological

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:25 pm

Good morfternoon.

Sir Ivan Rogers quits civil service four days after leaving EU envoy role

Foreign Office confirms that Rogers, who was Britain’s ambassador to the EU, has resigned from civil service (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... envoy-role

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:34 pm

HindleA wrote:FWIW our initial problems related to not enough time to position,taking corners too fast etc,with polite mention to driver and letter to company with specific concerns and information as to what training.Assurances made,specific to route,and reiteration to all drivers with follow up letter to enquire if still problems.Some years ago.Regularity and familiarity with drivers and passengers made it a friendly experience.Realise we are fortunate in bus design,position on route,frequent service.

I think it's definitely the case that small steps in the right direction during the "politically correct" New Labour years have had a lasting effect. The expectation that all buses should be accessible to wheelchair users is now a given and is mostly the case in reality also. Lack of co-ordination and expert thinking are more of an issue than lack of will in many cases. For instance, while First Bus was merrily investing in new buses that could automatically lower to pavement level, the local council was merrily investing in raising all the curbs at bus stops to bus level!

Anyway, my husband's a bus driver and so I hear about difficulties he has getting wheelchair users on and off buses. Different buses have different systems with ramps, some manual, some automatic and he sometimes has problems with them not working properly and very occasionally he's had to leave a passenger to wait for the next bus when he hasn't been able to get it to work at all. All such failures are logged and should be sorted out and bit by bit buses are being replaced by newer ones with better systems so I think it is getting better gradually. People with pushchairs refusing to vacate the disabled spot are very rare indeed, peer pressure from other passengers helps in that respect. The one really awkward one for my husband is when the wheelchair spot is already occupied by a wheelchair. Some customers are understanding about having to wait for the next bus, but some are not although there really is nothing he can do in that situation. Regular passengers are sometimes let down by full buses too, though, so it really is just one of the disadvantages of public transport that's difficult to solve.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:38 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Sir Ivan Rogers quits civil service four days after leaving EU envoy role

Foreign Office confirms that Rogers, who was Britain’s ambassador to the EU, has resigned from civil service (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... envoy-role

Will this mean he's free to "spill the beans" ?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:43 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Sir Ivan Rogers quits civil service four days after leaving EU envoy role

Foreign Office confirms that Rogers, who was Britain’s ambassador to the EU, has resigned from civil service (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... envoy-role
Will this mean he's free to "spill the beans" ?

I imagine he's bound by the Official Secrets Act - but I'm not sure, in these circumstances, how far that applies as a "muzzle".

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:48 pm

Rob Summerfield
‏@RobSummerfield1
A woman has just realised she lost £7 million in the Hatton Garden robbery. If somebody loses 50p in our house, we dismantle the sofa.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:52 pm

PorFavor wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... envoy-role
Will this mean he's free to "spill the beans" ?
I imagine he's bound by the Official Secrets Act - but I'm not sure, in these circumstances, how far that applies as a "muzzle".

He should be able to speak in "general" terms, not breaking any secrets but not pulling any punches either (hopefully!)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:55 pm

@PF - Taken out of context, but funny in view of what we were just saying - lol

The tone of his email suggested that the career diplomat had been involved in bitter clashes with Mrs May in recent months.

More follows...

http://news.sky.com/story/former-eu-env ... e-10720614" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:58 pm

David Schneider ‏@davidschneider 3h3 hours ago
Jeremy Corbyn. You need to be all over this NHS catastrophe. People are dying. Get on the TV, radio, call for a debate. Lead from the front!

Sorry to say but he's right...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 12:58 pm

HindleA wrote:"the higher you build your barrier the taller I become"

whether circumstantial,societal,biological

You had a good run this morning, babe

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:01 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:David Schneider ‏@davidschneider 3h3 hours ago
Jeremy Corbyn. You need to be all over this NHS catastrophe. People are dying. Get on the TV, radio, call for a debate. Lead from the front!

Sorry to say but he's right...

Yes. I thought that this was the sort of area that was meant to be Jeremy Corbyn's ace in the hole.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:01 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:05 pm

@Willow.Clarification-it wasn't a pop at bus drivers,merely a pointing out of the importance of training/awareness-often underestimated or deemed superfluous.Recent attempts to ensure for taxi drivers was spoken out by the usual suspects-which brought it to mind.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:06 pm

Jezza (or whoever's handling his Twitter account) tweeted Shadow Health Sec Jon Ashworth's response.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:08 pm

yahyah wrote:Jezza (or whoever's handling his Twitter account) tweeted Shadow Health Sec Jon Ashworth's response.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes. My reaction is, "Big deal!"

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:09 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Trivia alert (well it is me).

Had toast this morning. With JAM.
Am one bad-ass diet-busting mother****er.

I started to do this 30 day push up challenge but got stuck on day three -

http://www.health.com/fitness/this-50-p ... in-30-days" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:11 pm

Interesting to see that since Wendy Deng banked her divorce settlement she's found solace in the company of a young man a quarter the age of Rupert Murdoch.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:12 pm

yahyah wrote:Interesting to see that since Wendy Deng banked her divorce settlement she's found solace in the company of a young man a quarter the age of Rupert Murdoch.

Who wouldn't?

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:30 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:PS. Was apricot jam.
(for the purposes of showing off).

Showing off would be apricot conserve.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:31 pm

Handmade by Jeremy Corbyn ?

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:39 pm

yahyah wrote:Interesting to see that since Wendy Deng banked her divorce settlement she's found solace in the company of a young man a quarter the age of Rupert Murdoch.

Is he called Tony?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:47 pm

NHS head of acute care doesn't think we are in a state of humanitarian crisis according to the international scale of humanitarian crisis,apparently.

Phew.that's alright then,not sure about the "think" and what "scale"is deemed acceptable,though.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:53 pm

HindleA wrote:NHS head of acute care doesn't think we are in a state of humanitarian crisis according to the international scale of humanitarian crisis,apparently.

Phew.that's alright then,not sure about the "think" and what "scale"is deemed acceptable,though.

Yes - I just read that and was having difficulty with his thinking. Is there some sort of Richter scale that he's using?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:55 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Richard Murphy
‏@RichardJMurphy
The government is planning tax cuts for big business costing at least £6 billion a year whilst the NHS is in 'humanitarian crisis'

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Murphy's been busy on his blog recently, some of the btl discussions are very good.
Too much Corbyn-knocking for my taste on the blog itself, not saying he's wrong, I just don't see the how doing the right-wingers' job for them helps the left wing.
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017 ... edibility/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:56 pm

@seeingclearly
I lived many years on the West Coast of the US. Infrastructure and buildings were purposely built accommodating those requiring wheel-chair access.
It was consistent, built into design and repeated throughout the regions. Many buildings, streets and pavements built relatively recently created helpful
public space for the use of many. I'm generalising, it wasn't perfect. However, it was taken for granted that these provisions be made and people in wheelchairs
were a part of public life.

UK infrastructure and buildings aren't an insurmountable problem if care is taken in careful planning and investigation into what works well in other countries.
It's unnecessary tearing down centuries of public thoroughfares and buildings.

Comprehensive, affordable, reliable and purpose-built public transportation creates safer and spacious outdoors available for life, not motor vehicles.

Personally speaking, my wheelchair-using friends and employers were usually the driver on outings. Purpose-built vans accommodating them with room enough
for a dozen passengers made this practical. I'm writing about a time and a West Coast state with money and motivation providing tools necessary for integrating
people into public life. It wasn't just a few provided these tools. However, the US lacks universal healthcare provision and that means people kiss goodbye as
much of their wages spent on housing in exchange for the dubious protection of a plastic healthcare insurance card. That's reality for most US citizens.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:56 pm

@PF

There was something on Radio 4 this morning about NHS managers being encouraged not to use language that emphasised problems. Maybe he got the memo.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 1:59 pm

Far importantly where is Jeremy Hunt,rather than ploughing the Corbyn is useless continual self confirmation route,attend to attacking to the Tories yourselves.Just a thought.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:00 pm

Encouraged, or instructed?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:00 pm

PorFavor wrote:
HindleA wrote:NHS head of acute care doesn't think we are in a state of humanitarian crisis according to the international scale of humanitarian crisis,apparently.

Phew.that's alright then,not sure about the "think" and what "scale"is deemed acceptable,though.
Yes - I just read that and was having difficulty with his thinking. Is there some sort of Richter scale that he's using?

BBCNews24 said NHS England have a plan to deal with winter pressures, now we know what the plan is, it's calling in the Red Cross.

Telegraph front page says NHS 'spinning' the crisis, at first I assumed they meant exaggerating it but they didn't.

NHS hospitals have been accused of trying to "spin their way out" of the growing winter crisis after a leaked memo revealed that managers are being instructed to play down the scale of the problem.

Yesterday figures showed that record numbers of patients in ambulances are being turned away from Accident and Emergency units because hospitals are so busy.

But the Daily Telegraph has seen an NHS memo telling health officials that the “most important thing” is to avoid language such as “black alert” - the phrase used to denote the most serious level of emergency.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:01 pm

Murphy at times comes across as a bit arsey. Not just with Corbyn (when actuallly Jez paid too much attention to him and his tax gap pie in the sky) but also once I recall with Frances Coppola.

Murphy is dead right about these tax cuts though.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:03 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Encouraged, or instructed?

I was being cautious with the language having tried to recall exactly how it was phrased and failed. In my defence I has half asleep when it was on.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:04 pm

HindleA wrote:Far importantly where is Jeremy Hunt,rather than ploughing the Corbyn is useless continual self confirmation route,attend to attacking to the Tories yourselves.Just a thought.

Nothing to stop people multi tasking and doing both. Doesn't have to be either or.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:08 pm

True, but it all too frequently is.......

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:10 pm

HindleA wrote:Far importantly where is Jeremy Hunt,rather than ploughing the Corbyn is useless continual self confirmation route,attend to attacking to the Tories yourselves.Just a thought.

No point in attacking Hunt imo, he just does as he's told, the PM and Chancellor should carry the can, these two and the previous two. Maybe I'd include the LibDems.

I think Hunt himself was asking for more funding for social care recently. He's a ghastly nonentity, nearly as bad as IDS.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:12 pm

@Willow904
Anecdotal, I know, but I've never had a bad experience with public transportation workers, drivers or support staff, anywhere in
the UK in the years I've lived here. Professional, tactful, knowledgeable. If they're not there, I'm not going anywhere unless I walk.
I think some people take the work of others for granted and don't reflect how important each person doing their job is to civilisation.

I know what it is to be in a tough spot. It helped teach me more humility and gratitude.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:12 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Encouraged, or instructed?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01 ... y-trouble/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not a new memo, I've seen references to it on twitter over the last few weeks.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:16 pm

HindleA wrote:@Willow.Clarification-it wasn't a pop at bus drivers,merely a pointing out of the importance of training/awareness-often underestimated or deemed superfluous.Recent attempts to ensure for taxi drivers was spoken out by the usual suspects-which brought it to mind.

Don't worry, I didn't take it as a pop at individual bus drivers and I agree wholeheartedly that passengers need to continually complain and put pressure on bus companies to improve services or otherwise these private companies will simply cut more and more corners in the pursuit of profit. Things like pulling away from bus stops too early and taking corners too quickly often result from timetables being too tight and drivers being under too much pressure not to be late. Outside pressure from customers is essential to keep such profit rather than service related tendencies in check.

I just wanted to reassure seeingcleary that although traveling by bus is difficult for wheelchair users and there are still too many physical barriers, the cultural attitude towards wheelchair bus users is not as bad as high profile news stories may make it seem. The idea that wheelchair users should be able to access buses just like everyone else is well established, even if it doesn't always go to plan, and hopefully that basic tenet, that accessibility is a right, won't be eroded by our current, less tolerant, political times.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:17 pm

gilsey wrote:
HindleA wrote:Far importantly where is Jeremy Hunt,rather than ploughing the Corbyn is useless continual self confirmation route,attend to attacking to the Tories yourselves.Just a thought.
No point in attacking Hunt imo, he just does as he's told, the PM and Chancellor should carry the can, these two and the previous two. Maybe I'd include the LibDems.

I think Hunt himself was asking for more funding for social care recently. He's a ghastly nonentity, nearly as bad as IDS.

These people need to lose their positions, they're not up for the job of appropriately representing the people and country.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:17 pm

I've no time for incompetent staff.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 07 Jan, 2017 2:19 pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1kpceyXcAEIFeV.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tories are using this leaflet in Copeland.

[came out too big even after taking 'large' off the address]