Tuesday 10th January 2017

Post by **refitman** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 7:09 am

Morning all.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 7:24 am

Morning folks,
Chakrabortty on good form in the Graun, about the UK's fractured, disconnected economy.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... gdp-london" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 7:25 am

Morning

Ouch Hunt won't have enjoyed a glance at the news stand this morning

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:12 am

So, state aid for the steel industry eh?

Hands up if you think full "access" to the single market is compatible with that? Anyone think that some kind of free trade arrangement with the EU might possibly place some teeny weeny restrictions on state aid?

Not that it matters as our new leftwing populist mini-Farage won't be anywhere near power, and so can say any incoherent thing he likes.

I preferred the original to the reboot.

Vote Green.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:18 am

From last April

Lisa Rapado, Green candidate for Neath constituency, said , “The Welsh government has had 11 years notice of these job losses, and now it pleads impotence. I call on Carwyn Jones to take action now to prevent future losses. The market will not solve the problem, changing state aid rules will.

Cheap Chinese Steel has been flooding the UK market for some years now. This steel is being sold at a loss, and the EU needs to step in urgently if we are not to lose steel-making capability in Wales.”

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:22 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:From last April
Lisa Rapado, Green candidate for Neath constituency, said , “The Welsh government has had 11 years notice of these job losses, and now it pleads impotence. I call on Carwyn Jones to take action now to prevent future losses. The market will not solve the problem, changing state aid rules will.

Cheap Chinese Steel has been flooding the UK market for some years now. This steel is being sold at a loss, and the EU needs to step in urgently if we are not to lose steel-making capability in Wales.”

Yes, sadly we can;t regulate the statements of every obscure candidate.

Labour used to have the same problem with obscure leftwing MPs from north London saying ridiculous things. Nobody paid it any attention.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:28 am

You know people were saying how it was bad that the MSM weren't focusing on the NHS now that the Tories were on the ropes over the issue.

Well...

The opposition were better when he was on holiday.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:29 am

SpinningHugo wrote:You know people were saying how it was bad that the MSM weren't focusing on the NHS now that the Tories were on the ropes over the issue.

Well...

The opposition were better when he was on holiday.

He who?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:31 am

Or should it just be FTN protocol that whenever SpinningHugo uses a male pronoun, it refers to Jeremy Corbyn?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:32 am

Perhaps the poor chap can't even bear to utter "his" name any more

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:33 am

A defence of maximum wage caps here (with criticism BTL by me)

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2014 ... wages.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wrong but not crazy. Trump-ish populism.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:37 am

Tim Farron's line that Corbyn has become the "cheerleader" for the Tories is unsurprisingly attracting a few chuckles. Does he think we've all forgotten 2010-15 already?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:48 am

The Green view

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18731.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:16 am

PLP tongue biting discipline being tested to the limit this morning.

Remember people, he has to own this.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:16 am

Morning all.

What are your thoughts on the Today interview?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:21 am

Morning all.

So the PMs speech yesterday that was billed in advance as being wide-ranging and looking at all aspects of the Big Society....wait...that was the last one...actually turned out to be only on mental health.

The PM’s mental health pledges are not a long-term strategy

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... m-strategy

On its own, today’s announcement does not yet add up to a transformation of mental health that we would expect to endure. We haven’t seen a new understanding of the problem, nor a concerted attempt to create a new framework in government (institutions, targets or capacity) for dealing with it. A commitment mechanism is also currently missing, increasing the risk that the agenda disappears from ministerial radars in the future.

All of this may come. But it will require months if not years of prime ministerial engagement to set up. Superficial change can be achieved quickly. If the Prime Minister thinks that a ‘transformation’ of mental health is warranted, it will take more than one speech and a handful of policy announcements.

That went well then...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:23 am

Good-morning, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:25 am

SpinningHugo wrote:So, state aid for the steel industry eh?

Hands up if you think full "access" to the single market is compatible with that? Anyone think that some kind of free trade arrangement with the EU might possibly place some teeny weeny restrictions on state aid?

Not that it matters as our new leftwing populist mini-Farage won't be anywhere near power, and so can say any incoherent thing he likes.

I preferred the original to the reboot.

Vote Green.

I'm not voting Green, it'll get get us nowhere.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:32 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nao-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plans to close scores of tax offices unrealistic, says spending watchdog

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:33 am

citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:So, state aid for the steel industry eh?

Hands up if you think full "access" to the single market is compatible with that? Anyone think that some kind of free trade arrangement with the EU might possibly place some teeny weeny restrictions on state aid?

Not that it matters as our new leftwing populist mini-Farage won't be anywhere near power, and so can say any incoherent thing he likes.

I preferred the original to the reboot.

Vote Green.
I'm not voting Green, it'll get get us nowhere.

Given that there is no prospect of any party other than the Tories being in power, why not vote for principle?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:37 am

I see Tory MPs are gunning for the new HMCI already...

Grammar schools are a 'distraction', says new chief inspector of schools

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/20 ... or-schools

Andrew Brigden MP, said: “Once again we are seeing the civil service displaying their ideological beliefs. At the end of the day they are there to implement government policy impartially. It is unproductive of them to dispose their own ideological beliefs”.

Dimwits like him need to learn the difference between a civil servant like David carter and Crown appointees like Amanda Spielman...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:39 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government plans 'threaten children's legal rights built up over decades'
Magistrates’ Association warns children and social work bill could make court orders protecting vulnerable children ‘unenforceable’

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:51 am

Corbyn on Brexit: UK can be better off out of the EU

"Jeremy Corbyn will use his first speech of 2017 to claim that Britain can be better off outside the EU and insist
that the Labour party has no principled objection to ending the free movement of European workers in the UK."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -migration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't dig this at all. Ending free movement is a devastating end to decades of everything best about the UK being in the EU.
You know what will happen, of course. The wealthy go where they will, the regulars see an effective end to their right to go
anywhere. Don't give me any of that 'get a visa' crap. It'll stop people going places. Opportunities gone.

The following is my own idea and I'm not suggesting Corbyn wants this for the UK. I'll share my thoughts.

You all know a little about me - a pagan, Jesus-loving, communist (not a comprehensive list). I'd love to give the Cuba model
of communal work and study for all the people living together on an embargoed, relatively small land mass a go. There's a kind
of perfect beauty for the UK, a formerly successful colonising nation, retiring from the world stage into calm, sustenance
living. I gotta suspicion it's not what others want and I probably don't really want it either.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:56 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:So, state aid for the steel industry eh?

Hands up if you think full "access" to the single market is compatible with that? Anyone think that some kind of free trade arrangement with the EU might possibly place some teeny weeny restrictions on state aid?

Not that it matters as our new leftwing populist mini-Farage won't be anywhere near power, and so can say any incoherent thing he likes.

I preferred the original to the reboot.

Vote Green.
I'm not voting Green, it'll get get us nowhere.
Given that there is no prospect of any party other than the Tories being in power, why not vote for principle?

Don't be silly, Tories will hold with their use of force, nothing more. It'll break them. I'm voting for principle by voting Labour.
I disagree with ending freedom of movement. It's not the beginning and end of my relationship with the Labour party.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:57 am

ONS on inequality

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ending2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting on claim that inequality inexorably increasing.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:00 am

citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I'm not voting Green, it'll get get us nowhere.
Given that there is no prospect of any party other than the Tories being in power, why not vote for principle?
Don't be silly, Tories will hold with their use of force, nothing more. It'll break them. I'm voting for principle by voting Labour.
I disagree with ending freedom of movement. It's not the beginning and end of my relationship with the Labour party.

Are you? Why do you want to end freedom of movement? Don't you want to stay in the single market? Why do you want to make us poorer by doing these things, so that we can't afford better social care and so on?

These things are interrelated.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:06 am

citizenJA wrote:
Corbyn on Brexit: UK can be better off out of the EU

"Jeremy Corbyn will use his first speech of 2017 to claim that Britain can be better off outside the EU and insist
that the Labour party has no principled objection to ending the free movement of European workers in the UK."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -migration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't dig this at all. Ending free movement is a devastating end to decades of everything best about the UK being in the EU.
You know what will happen, of course. The wealthy go where they will, the regulars see an effective end to their right to go
anywhere. Don't give me any of that 'get a visa' crap. It'll stop people going places. Opportunities gone.

The following is my own idea and I'm not suggesting Corbyn wants this for the UK. I'll share my thoughts.

You all know a little about me - a pagan, Jesus-loving, communist (not a comprehensive list). I'd love to give the Cuba model
of communal work and study for all the people living together on an embargoed, relatively small land mass a go. There's a kind
of perfect beauty for the UK, a formerly successful colonising nation, retiring from the world stage into calm, sustenance
living. I gotta suspicion it's not what others want and I probably don't really want it either.

Remove the Swedish Derogation abuse, ditto abuses like advertising abroad first and potentially uniquely, abuses like a requirement to speak Polish etc.

IMHO what's been mentioned isn't a million miles away from what Miliband was saying pre GE?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:08 am

Our neighbourhood has had escalating difficulty with an increasingly violent neighbour. Mr citizen and I aren't the target of this person's ire,
it's general lawless disturbance. We've not been sleeping well but hopefully the situation will be resolved soon.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:08 am

The search for a sentence that makes any logical sense continues.A skill of sorts.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:09 am

HindleA wrote:The search for a sentence that makes any logical sense continues.A skill of sorts.

I know. Be patient with me, please.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:12 am

CJA sorry to hear that,puts my lawnmowing tortoise with anger management problems into perspective.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:13 am

Cja-not you of course.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:13 am

There is a time delay in my responses.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:14 am

StephenDolan wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Corbyn on Brexit: UK can be better off out of the EU

"Jeremy Corbyn will use his first speech of 2017 to claim that Britain can be better off outside the EU and insist
that the Labour party has no principled objection to ending the free movement of European workers in the UK."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -migration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't dig this at all. Ending free movement is a devastating end to decades of everything best about the UK being in the EU.
You know what will happen, of course. The wealthy go where they will, the regulars see an effective end to their right to go
anywhere. Don't give me any of that 'get a visa' crap. It'll stop people going places. Opportunities gone.

The following is my own idea and I'm not suggesting Corbyn wants this for the UK. I'll share my thoughts.

You all know a little about me - a pagan, Jesus-loving, communist (not a comprehensive list). I'd love to give the Cuba model
of communal work and study for all the people living together on an embargoed, relatively small land mass a go. There's a kind
of perfect beauty for the UK, a formerly successful colonising nation, retiring from the world stage into calm, sustenance
living. I gotta suspicion it's not what others want and I probably don't really want it either.
Remove the Swedish Derogation abuse, ditto abuses like advertising abroad first and potentially uniquely, abuses like a requirement to speak Polish etc.

IMHO what's been mentioned isn't a million miles away from what Miliband was saying pre GE?

These international acts Tory government are committing the UK to can't be switched off when Tories are voted out next time.
We've got a Tory government now, not Miliband's Labour. Never leave the EU with Tories in government.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:15 am

HindleA wrote:CJA sorry to hear that,puts my lawnmowing tortoise with anger management problems into perspective.

We all have our crosses to bear. Some might be heavier than others but it's a tough hike for us all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:16 am

HindleA wrote:There is a time delay in my responses.

Copy that. Over.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:16 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

Tim Farron's line that Corbyn has become the "cheerleader" for the Tories is unsurprisingly attracting a few chuckles. Does he think we've all forgotten 2010-15 already?

Perhaps not, but which other party is speaking up for the 48% who voted against Brexit (hard, soft or multicolour)?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:17 am

Important to emphasise that this car crash is not just supported by the current leadership

http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2017/0 ... rs-future/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:20 am

citizenJA wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
citizenJA wrote: I don't dig this at all. Ending free movement is a devastating end to decades of everything best about the UK being in the EU.
You know what will happen, of course. The wealthy go where they will, the regulars see an effective end to their right to go
anywhere. Don't give me any of that 'get a visa' crap. It'll stop people going places. Opportunities gone.

The following is my own idea and I'm not suggesting Corbyn wants this for the UK. I'll share my thoughts.

You all know a little about me - a pagan, Jesus-loving, communist (not a comprehensive list). I'd love to give the Cuba model
of communal work and study for all the people living together on an embargoed, relatively small land mass a go. There's a kind
of perfect beauty for the UK, a formerly successful colonising nation, retiring from the world stage into calm, sustenance
living. I gotta suspicion it's not what others want and I probably don't really want it either.
Remove the Swedish Derogation abuse, ditto abuses like advertising abroad first and potentially uniquely, abuses like a requirement to speak Polish etc.

IMHO what's been mentioned isn't a million miles away from what Miliband was saying pre GE?
These international acts Tory government are committing the UK to can't be switched off when Tories are voted out next time.
We've got a Tory government now, not Miliband's Labour. Never leave the EU with Tories in government.

The majority voted to do exactly that. The terms are where the battles lie. I'm not enamoured about the former, but it happened.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:22 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote: Don't be silly, Tories will hold with their use of force, nothing more. It'll break them. I'm voting for principle by voting Labour.
I disagree with ending freedom of movement. It's not the beginning and end of my relationship with the Labour party.
Are you? Why do you want to end freedom of movement? Don't you want to stay in the single market? Why do you want to make us poorer by doing these things, so that we can't afford better social care and so on?

These things are interrelated.

Don't claim I want something I've made clear I don't. I'll not respond to another not communicating in good faith.
I don't want an end to freedom of movement, not poorer, not out of the single market, no 'Brexit'. The UK has all
the resources it needs to fund UK infrastructure. It's Tory government making the choice not to fund them.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:22 am

StephenDolan wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Corbyn on Brexit: UK can be better off out of the EU

"Jeremy Corbyn will use his first speech of 2017 to claim that Britain can be better off outside the EU and insist
that the Labour party has no principled objection to ending the free movement of European workers in the UK."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -migration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't dig this at all. Ending free movement is a devastating end to decades of everything best about the UK being in the EU.
You know what will happen, of course. The wealthy go where they will, the regulars see an effective end to their right to go
anywhere. Don't give me any of that 'get a visa' crap. It'll stop people going places. Opportunities gone.

The following is my own idea and I'm not suggesting Corbyn wants this for the UK. I'll share my thoughts.

You all know a little about me - a pagan, Jesus-loving, communist (not a comprehensive list). I'd love to give the Cuba model
of communal work and study for all the people living together on an embargoed, relatively small land mass a go. There's a kind
of perfect beauty for the UK, a formerly successful colonising nation, retiring from the world stage into calm, sustenance
living. I gotta suspicion it's not what others want and I probably don't really want it either.
Remove the Swedish Derogation abuse, ditto abuses like advertising abroad first and potentially uniquely, abuses like a requirement to speak Polish etc.

IMHO what's been mentioned isn't a million miles away from what Miliband was saying pre GE?

And I see that the speech has this

'But Labour will take action against undercutting of pay and conditions by closing down cheap labour loopholes, banning exclusive advertising of jobs abroad and strengthening workplace protections.'

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:24 am

Now this is a biggie..

'All firms with a government or council contract over £250,000 will be required to pay tax in the UK and train young people. No company will receive taxpayer-funded contracts if it, or its parent company, is headquartered in a tax haven.'

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:25 am

StephenDolan wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Remove the Swedish Derogation abuse, ditto abuses like advertising abroad first and potentially uniquely, abuses like a requirement to speak Polish etc.

IMHO what's been mentioned isn't a million miles away from what Miliband was saying pre GE?
These international acts Tory government are committing the UK to can't be switched off when Tories are voted out next time.
We've got a Tory government now, not Miliband's Labour. Never leave the EU with Tories in government.
The majority voted to do exactly that. The terms are where the battles lie. I'm not enamoured about the former, but it happened.

The citizenship changes contemplated resulting from Tory government's EU referendum results aren't constitutional.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:26 am

StephenDolan wrote: The majority voted to do exactly that. The terms are where the battles lie. I'm not enamoured about the former, but it happened.

Quite so. So we could opt to try and stay in the single market, or to try and maintain freedom of movement.

But instead the Labour leadership wants to be able to pay the steel industry money, and end both of those things.

Which is fine. I have no problem with the Labour leadership chasing the votes of Brexiters who hate Premier league football. Just gives me another excuse to vote Green.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:27 am

StephenDolan wrote:Now this is a biggie..

'All firms with a government or council contract over £250,000 will be required to pay tax in the UK and train young people. No company will receive taxpayer-funded contracts if it, or its parent company, is headquartered in a tax haven.'

I like that.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:29 am

citizenJA wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Now this is a biggie..

'All firms with a government or council contract over £250,000 will be required to pay tax in the UK and train young people. No company will receive taxpayer-funded contracts if it, or its parent company, is headquartered in a tax haven.'
I like that.

That's something that Richard Murphy has been pushing hard for.

Let's hear this aggressively mentioned in interviews please PLP.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:35 am

StephenDolan wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Now this is a biggie..

'All firms with a government or council contract over £250,000 will be required to pay tax in the UK and train young people. No company will receive taxpayer-funded contracts if it, or its parent company, is headquartered in a tax haven.'
I like that.
That's something that Richard Murphy has been pushing hard for.

Let's hear this aggressively mentioned in interviews please PLP.

Hear! Hear!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:40 am

T May opens her Tory mouth and the pound hits the floor
No confidence

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:40 am

Of far more import is this nonsense IMHO

Alerted to this on twitter by Roger.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -from-2026" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fifa approves Infantino’s plan to expand World Cup to 48 teams from 2026

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:48 am

Not least for filling in wall charts purposes,bet they didn't think about such things.