Wednesday 11th January 2017

Post by **refitman** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 7:09 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 7:30 am

Well, I doubt even the leader of the Labour party can dominate the news agenda all day today. Amazing. Russia has an economy smaller than Italy. It really shouldn't be of any significance.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 7:50 am

Interesting on North/South I thought

http://tomforth.co.uk/whydevolution/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 8:32 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... consultanc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rail franchise mandarin's board gave Southern contract to client of his company
Peter Wilkinson held role at Department for Transport while owning stake in FCP, a consultancy that had been advising Govia

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 8:57 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oin-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Momentum, the grassroots pro-Jeremy Corbyn campaign group, has agreed a new constitution that will require its members to join the Labour party, in an attempt to resolve a bitter fight about its future.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:03 am

Talking of Momentum, they seem to be keeping a low profile.

Doesn't seem as if many/if any of Corbyn's harder core supporters took to the internet to praise him or swear about those criticising yesterday's 'reboot'.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:06 am

Morning all.

Glad to hear Burnham making the point that any drive cross party consensus shouldn't mean letting the Tories off the hook. Hunt needs to wear his albatross.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:10 am

yahyah wrote:Talking of Momentum, they seem to be keeping a low profile.

Doesn't seem as if many/if any of Corbyn's harder core supporters took to the internet to praise him or swear about those criticising yesterday's 'reboot'.

It was pretty much impossible to do so. I feel sorry for him, he is so far out of his depth. It doesn't really matter though, save to those involved.

Do we believe the Trump story or not? I think the dossier is real, but is what it says real?

Views?

I also wonder if the Labour leader is happy with carrying out all of the Trump playbook, now that we know what some of it involves?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:27 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
yahyah wrote:Talking of Momentum, they seem to be keeping a low profile.

Doesn't seem as if many/if any of Corbyn's harder core supporters took to the internet to praise him or swear about those criticising yesterday's 'reboot'.

It was pretty much impossible to do so. I feel sorry for him, he is so far out of his depth. It doesn't really matter though, save to those involved.

Do we believe the Trump story or not? I think the dossier is real, but is what it says real?

Views?

I also wonder if the Labour leader is happy with carrying out all of the Trump playbook, now that we know what some of it involves?

'So while people are being delicate about discussing wholly unproven allegations, the document is at the front of everyone’s minds as they ponder the question: Why is Trump so insistent about vindicating Russia from the hacking charges that everyone else seems to accept?'

Lawfare raise this, to me, crucial point.

As to Labour, you should be happy if you perceive them making mistakes, it'll improve the chances of the greens doing well in future elections.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:29 am

I do like the way you edited that Hugo just so that you could get a snide dig at Corbyn into every post as you seem to like doing.

Morning all.

Off to the library in a bit to work on a post-doc research proposal. Looking at certain posts so far, I doubt I'll miss much...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:29 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:I do like the way you edited that Hugo just so that you could get a snide dig at Corbyn into every post as you seem to like doing.

Morning all.

Off to the library in a bit to work on a post-doc research proposal. Looking at certain posts so far, I doubt I'll miss much...

"But I'm a scorpion.. "

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:37 am

StephenDolan wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
yahyah wrote:Talking of Momentum, they seem to be keeping a low profile.

Doesn't seem as if many/if any of Corbyn's harder core supporters took to the internet to praise him or swear about those criticising yesterday's 'reboot'.

It was pretty much impossible to do so. I feel sorry for him, he is so far out of his depth. It doesn't really matter though, save to those involved.

Do we believe the Trump story or not? I think the dossier is real, but is what it says real?

Views?

I also wonder if the Labour leader is happy with carrying out all of the Trump playbook, now that we know what some of it involves?
'So while people are being delicate about discussing wholly unproven allegations, the document is at the front of everyone’s minds as they ponder the question: Why is Trump so insistent about vindicating Russia from the hacking charges that everyone else seems to accept?'

Lawfare raise this, to me, crucial point.

As to Labour, you should be happy if you perceive them making mistakes, it'll improve the chances of the greens doing well in future elections.

The current leader does add to the gaiety of nations. As performance, it is much more entertaining than Miliband was.Once you accept that the Tories will rule for the foreseeable future, entertainment (and our own integrity) is all we have.

Similar is Trump. It is mind bogglingly awful, but funny at the same time. I am prepared to bet that Trump craves acceptance and recognition, and his tragedy is that even when elected President he gets neither (see the refusals to perform at his inauguration).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:39 am

As James Walsh tweeted, this is worth reading to the end...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... onsultancy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:47 am

And in local news...

Peter Walker ‏@peterwalker99 2m2 minutes ago

Wow. Garden Bridge Trust accounts warn that trustees are "unable to conclude that the Trust is a going concern" https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:49 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:As James Walsh tweeted, this is worth reading to the end...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... onsultancy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for highlighting that, pretty damning.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:52 am

Government will lose Brexit supreme court case, ministers believe

Senior government figures believe seven of 11 judges will uphold demand that Theresa May secure MPs’ backing for article 50 (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... article-50

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 9:54 am

Good morfternoon.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 10:03 am

'“The government is still very concerned that if it puts forward a white paper, it will be subject to amendment,” said one backbencher'

No worries, May has a working majority in the Commons, she can sort this out easily before the end of March, right?

I almost expect the bill put forward to say

"That this house recognises that Brexit means Brexit".

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 10:07 am

PorFavor wrote:
Government will lose Brexit supreme court case, ministers believe

Senior government figures believe seven of 11 judges will uphold demand that Theresa May secure MPs’ backing for article 50 (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... article-50

Law and policy
‏@Law_and_policy

"the government has asked the supreme court for early sight of the judgment, to allow “contingency planning”"

I bet they have.

Law and policy ‏@Law_and_policy 3m3 minutes ago

"What is our contingency plan if we lose Supreme Court case"

- A press release, prime minister.

"What does it say?"

- Nothing, as yet.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 10:20 am

I have placed a reasonable stake on the government winning the appeal on betfair, and have a side bet with Jolyon Maughan. Long odds now on offer (5/1 on betfair)

If the government loses their big headache is Scotland. A Bill could be short, is easy to draft, and there is a big commons majority for it.

But, the Scots will say that Sewel.Scotland Act 2016 gives them a veto. It doesn't really matter if they're right (they're not) politically that is great for the SNP. Cue shouts of betrayal (especially against Labour who they wish to completely destroy).

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:03 am

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5874f ... 4ed40fefaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Blimey.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:13 am

StephenDolan wrote:http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5874f ... 4ed40fefaf

Blimey.

Should the first loyalty of a hospital's chief executive be to the Prime Minister?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:18 am

The pound is low and yet the trade deficit expands.

Cameron must be laughing at May. She's doing a grand job of making him look good.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:18 am

SpinningHugo wrote:I have placed a reasonable stake on the government winning the appeal on betfair, and have a side bet with Jolyon Maughan. Long odds now on offer (5/1 on betfair)

If the government loses their big headache is Scotland. A Bill could be short, is easy to draft, and there is a big commons majority for it.

But, the Scots will say that Sewel.Scotland Act 2016 gives them a veto. It doesn't really matter if they're right (they're not) politically that is great for the SNP. Cue shouts of betrayal (especially against Labour who they wish to completely destroy).

Seen the latest Scottish polls? Mission pretty much accomplished already.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:46 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I have placed a reasonable stake on the government winning the appeal on betfair, and have a side bet with Jolyon Maughan. Long odds now on offer (5/1 on betfair)

If the government loses their big headache is Scotland. A Bill could be short, is easy to draft, and there is a big commons majority for it.

But, the Scots will say that Sewel.Scotland Act 2016 gives them a veto. It doesn't really matter if they're right (they're not) politically that is great for the SNP. Cue shouts of betrayal (especially against Labour who they wish to completely destroy).
Seen the latest Scottish polls? Mission pretty much accomplished already.

Can somebody in Scottish Labour explain to Sturgeon the concept of divide and rule, which she and her party have fallen for, hook line and sinker?

The Tories are fucking useless regarding everything, except in managing to get opposing parties at each other's throats. Divide and rule. Oh, the other thing they're good at is asset stripping and lining the pockets of their backers. They certainly live up the true meaning of 'Tory' (in Irish).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:46 am

Anyway..........golden showers, anyone?

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:48 am

Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:49 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Anyway..........golden showers, anyone?

#mindbleach

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:50 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

Well she probably wanted a marginal Tory win and a marginal remain win.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:51 am

Morning
Dutch trains become 100% powered by wind energy
The national railway company, NS, said that its renewables target had been met a year earlier than planned

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ?CMP=fb_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 11:53 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/38534958" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Holy crap.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:05 pm

StephenDolan wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/38534958

Holy crap.

Blummin' ek, those numbers are way out of kilter!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:09 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
nickyinnorfolk wrote:Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...
Well she probably wanted a marginal Tory win and a marginal remain win.

A knife-edge "remain" win where Scotland tipped the balance was her dream. Well as Scotland's national poet said, the best laid plans.......

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:15 pm

May just used Cameron's line about only being able to afford a strong NHS if we have a strong economy. Does that actually work when the pound is on the floor?!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:23 pm

'John Rentoul – Verified account ‏@JohnRentoul

Corbyn dribbling the ball past the open goal #PMQs'

Oh really?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:24 pm

Rentoul is a clown - who knew?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:30 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rentoul is a clown - who knew?

But still, wowser.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:35 pm

StephenDolan wrote:'John Rentoul – Verified account ‏@JohnRentoul

Corbyn dribbling the ball past the open goal #PMQs'

Oh really?

I don't like Corbyn (as leader not personally) but I thought he did well today.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:36 pm

Someone, Angus Robertson I think, raised the issue of whether it's appropriate to forge ahead with the planned timetable for triggering article 50 while Northern Ireland is going through the process of elections and the restrictions on full consultation with the Northern Ireland Assembly that implies. He asked whether the triggering of article 50 should be postponed.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:36 pm

http://www.scottishhousingnews.com/1330 ... he-public/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Angus Housing Association director, Bruce Forbes, has accused a Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) spokesperson of “peddling lies and deliberately misleading the public

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:37 pm

He usually bests May at PMQs - the media have responded to this development by.......largely ignoring it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:He usually bests May at PMQs - the media have responded to this development by.......largely ignoring it.

May says Corbyn asked about this before Christmas. He may find it strange that people say the same as they did a few weeks ago. Half of delayed discharges are in just a few areas. That shows that this is about best practice.

Given May has rolled out this excuse before it would have been useful if Corbyn had been ready with a response that illustrated why some areas have more difficulties with delayed discharges and link this back to lack of action on social care by the Tory government and their decision to shelve their proposals shaped by the Dilnot report.

Not enough is being made of the choices the Tories have made that have led us here, it's all about their lack of response now, when really the focus should be on the 2012 Health and Social Care Act which was billed as "saving" the NHS which has clearly failed and their clear choice to postpone social care reform.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:He usually bests May at PMQs - the media have responded to this development by.......largely ignoring it.

Inevitably enough, I don't agree. I think he is dreadful. The leader of the opposition should win as he is in charge of the questions, which can be on anything. Corbyn does poorly because

1. He can't think on his feet. He asks no follow ups because he never listens. All the questions have to be prepared for him.

2. He is humourless. Fatal in the House of commons.

3. His MPs don't support him (not his fault you may say).

May is poor at this as well, of course. but she is new.

Compared to Blair, Hague. Brown, Cameron and Miliband, neither of the current performers are good at all. Blair v Hague was very good back in the day, two obviously intelligent people trying to win.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 12:56 pm

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere,

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 1:00 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:He usually bests May at PMQs - the media have responded to this development by.......largely ignoring it.

Inevitably enough, I don't agree. I think he is dreadful. The leader of the opposition should win as he is in charge of the questions, which can be on anything. Corbyn does poorly because

1. He can't think on his feet. He asks no follow ups because he never listens. All the questions have to be prepared for him.

2. He is humourless. Fatal in the House of commons.

3. His MPs don't support him (not his fault you may say).

May is poor at this as well, of course. but she is new.

Compared to Blair, Hague. Brown, Cameron and Miliband, neither of the current performers are good at all. Blair v Hague was very good back in the day, two obviously intelligent people trying to win.

You forget John Smith
"In this speech, he referred to John Major as "the devalued Prime Minister of a devalued Government". At Labour's party conference, Smith branded Major and Norman Lamont the "Laurel and Hardy of British politics". This echoed his attacks on Major's government made before the 1992 election (while he was still shadow chancellor), most memorably when he labelled "irresponsible" Conservative plans for cutting income tax to 20%,[5] and joked at a Labour Party rally in Sheffield that the Conservatives would have a box-office disaster with "Honey, I Shrunk the Economy" – in reference to the recent Disney motion picture Honey, I Shrunk the Kids – mocking the recession which was plaguing the British economy at the time.[6]

In a June 1993 debate, Smith again savaged the Conservative Government, saying that under John Major's premiership, "the man with the non-Midas touch is in charge. It is no wonder that we live in a country where the Grand National does not start and hotels fall into the sea" (in reference to the 1993 Grand National, which was cancelled after a false start, and to Holbeck Hall Hotel in Scarborough, which had recently collapsed off a cliff). This was in spite of neither of these events being part of the political or economic scene."
That's the kind of humour that wins hearts ad minds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smith_(Labour_Party_leader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 1:02 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:He usually bests May at PMQs - the media have responded to this development by.......largely ignoring it.

Inevitably enough, I don't agree. I think he is dreadful. The leader of the opposition should win as he is in charge of the questions, which can be on anything. Corbyn does poorly because

1. He can't think on his feet. He asks no follow ups because he never listens. All the questions have to be prepared for him.

2. He is humourless. Fatal in the House of commons.

3. His MPs don't support him (not his fault you may say).

May is poor at this as well, of course. but she is new.

Compared to Blair, Hague. Brown, Cameron and Miliband, neither of the current performers are good at all. Blair v Hague was very good back in the day, two obviously intelligent people trying to win.
You forget John Smith
"In this speech, he referred to John Major as "the devalued Prime Minister of a devalued Government". At Labour's party conference, Smith branded Major and Norman Lamont the "Laurel and Hardy of British politics". This echoed his attacks on Major's government made before the 1992 election (while he was still shadow chancellor), most memorably when he labelled "irresponsible" Conservative plans for cutting income tax to 20%,[5] and joked at a Labour Party rally in Sheffield that the Conservatives would have a box-office disaster with "Honey, I Shrunk the Economy" – in reference to the recent Disney motion picture Honey, I Shrunk the Kids – mocking the recession which was plaguing the British economy at the time.[6]

In a June 1993 debate, Smith again savaged the Conservative Government, saying that under John Major's premiership, "the man with the non-Midas touch is in charge. It is no wonder that we live in a country where the Grand National does not start and hotels fall into the sea" (in reference to the 1993 Grand National, which was cancelled after a false start, and to Holbeck Hall Hotel in Scarborough, which had recently collapsed off a cliff). This was in spite of neither of these events being part of the political or economic scene."
That's the kind of humour that wins hearts ad minds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smith_(Labour_Party_leader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

I didn't want to go too far back. Callaghan used to bash Thatcher about twice weekly. Not that it did him much good in the end

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 1:22 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:He usually bests May at PMQs - the media have responded to this development by.......largely ignoring it.

Inevitably enough, I don't agree. I think he is dreadful. The leader of the opposition should win as he is in charge of the questions, which can be on anything. Corbyn does poorly because

1. He can't think on his feet. He asks no follow ups because he never listens. All the questions have to be prepared for him.

2. He is humourless. Fatal in the House of commons.

3. His MPs don't support him (not his fault you may say).

May is poor at this as well, of course. but she is new.

Compared to Blair, Hague. Brown, Cameron and Miliband, neither of the current performers are good at all. Blair v Hague was very good back in the day, two obviously intelligent people trying to win.

You are John Rentoul and I claim my £5!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 1:24 pm

It would explain much

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 1:42 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:It would explain much

As you can guess, I like Rentoul. I think he is clever. He bent too far in defending Blair over Iraq, but at least served the purpose of showing what the best case to be made is.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 11 Jan, 2017 1:45 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Care home closures set to rise as funding crisis bites