Wednesday 11th January 2017

[Tubby Isaacs]

Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere,

I think she can't win a second referendum. So if independence is the yardstick, she will fail. But hegemonyin Scotland, she's succeeded.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Wondering what populist opposition might look like earlier. I can't drive but I know petrol is going up because Brexit. Leader of the Opposition could be hammering that.

Nah. Apparently populism is Bennite fantasy and laughable wonkish pay policies that ban Crossrail contractors from bidding.

[HindleA]

Stephen Mangan

"OK I think he’s stopped tweeting. For now. The tranquilliser darts must have kicked in."

No explanation/identification necessary.

[Eric_WLothian]

Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere,

I think she can't win a second referendum. So if independence is the yardstick, she will fail. But hegemonyin Scotland, she's succeeded.

She's ruled out a referendum in 2017 (not that it's within her power to call one anyway).

Also, she's not campaigning for 'remain' - she's campaigning for a separate deal for Scotland, which is totally bonkers.

It has become clear (imo) that the only party to support the 48% remainers are the LibDems (unfortunately).

[SpinningHugo]

Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere,

I think she can't win a second referendum. So if independence is the yardstick, she will fail. But hegemonyin Scotland, she's succeeded.

I don't either. but the next goal must be to destroy Labour, so that Scotland becomes a straight Nat v union fight between SNP and Tories. that is almost achieved.

Eventually the opportunity to win another referendum will come. Once upon a time an independent Scotland looked impossible. now it looks likely.

[SpinningHugo]

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere,

I think she can't win a second referendum. So if independence is the yardstick, she will fail. But hegemonyin Scotland, she's succeeded.

She's ruled out a referendum in 2017 (not that it's within her power to call one anyway).

Also, she's not campaigning for 'remain' - she's campaigning for a separate deal for Scotland, which is totally bonkers.

It has become clear (imo) that the only party to support the 48% remainers are the LibDems (unfortunately).

And the Greens (who are in fact better as we'll vote against triggering Art 50).

[citizenJA]

I have placed a reasonable stake on the government winning the appeal on betfair, and have a side bet with Jolyon Maughan. Long odds now on offer (5/1 on betfair)

If the government loses their big headache is Scotland. A Bill could be short, is easy to draft, and there is a big commons majority for it.

But, the Scots will say that Sewel.Scotland Act 2016 gives them a veto. It doesn't really matter if they're right (they're not) politically that is great for the SNP. Cue shouts of betrayal (especially against Labour who they wish to completely destroy).

Seen the latest Scottish polls? Mission pretty much accomplished already.

Can somebody in Scottish Labour explain to Sturgeon the concept of divide and rule, which she and her party have fallen for, hook line and sinker?

The Tories are fucking useless regarding everything, except in managing to get opposing parties at each other's throats. Divide and rule. Oh, the other thing they're good at is asset stripping and lining the pockets of their backers. They certainly live up the true meaning of 'Tory' (in Irish).

Hear! Hear!

[citizenJA]

Good-afternoon, everyone.
I'm still catching up on the thread.

[Eric_WLothian]

I think she can't win a second referendum. So if independence is the yardstick, she will fail. But hegemonyin Scotland, she's succeeded.

She's ruled out a referendum in 2017 (not that it's within her power to call one anyway).

Also, she's not campaigning for 'remain' - she's campaigning for a separate deal for Scotland, which is totally bonkers.

It has become clear (imo) that the only party to support the 48% remainers are the LibDems (unfortunately).

And the Greens (who are in fact better as we'll vote against triggering Art 50).

Ah yes... the Greens who are the only party to support the SNP dream of independence - despite it being made crystal clear in 2014 that an independent Scotland would be outside the EU.

[SpinningHugo]

Seen the latest Scottish polls? Mission pretty much accomplished already.

Can somebody in Scottish Labour explain to Sturgeon the concept of divide and rule, which she and her party have fallen for, hook line and sinker?

The Tories are fucking useless regarding everything, except in managing to get opposing parties at each other's throats. Divide and rule. Oh, the other thing they're good at is asset stripping and lining the pockets of their backers. They certainly live up the true meaning of 'Tory' (in Irish).

Hear! Hear!

If the problem is divide and rule, the weaker of the two opponents should step aside.

nowadays, that means Labour should get out of the way of the SNP who in Scotland now dwarf them.

[Eric_WLothian]

If the problem is divide and rule, the weaker of the two opponents should step aside.

nowadays, that means Labour should get out of the way of the SNP who in Scotland now dwarf them.

The Greens have even less support - should they 'get out of the way' as well? Personally, I don't support the idea of one-party states. And, incidentally, the SNP are a minority government in Holyrood.

[HindleA]

https://www.bma.org.uk/news/2017/januar ... mgdoctors=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Patient access to GPs in 'complete disarray'

[SpinningHugo]

If the problem is divide and rule, the weaker of the two opponents should step aside.

nowadays, that means Labour should get out of the way of the SNP who in Scotland now dwarf them.

The Greens have even less support - should they 'get out of the way' as well? Personally, I don't support the idea of one-party states. And, incidentally, the SNP are a minority government in Holyrood.

I of course don't accept the premise about divide and rule, so no.

If there were any prospect of Labour winning an election I can well see the moral force behind Green voters voting Labour in marginals. There isn't though, so we needn't worry.

[AngryAsWell]

Is this new news? Has something happened today?
Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 9m9 minutes ago
Sir Keir Starmer unequivocal: we will put down amendments to the Article 50 Bill.

[citizenJA]

Can somebody in Scottish Labour explain to Sturgeon the concept of divide and rule, which she and her party have fallen for, hook line and sinker?

The Tories are fucking useless regarding everything, except in managing to get opposing parties at each other's throats. Divide and rule. Oh, the other thing they're good at is asset stripping and lining the pockets of their backers. They certainly live up the true meaning of 'Tory' (in Irish).

Hear! Hear!

If the problem is divide and rule, the weaker of the two opponents should step aside.

nowadays, that means Labour should get out of the way of the SNP who in Scotland now dwarf them.

SNP aren't in England, Wales and NI and the Greens haven't a sufficiently sophisticated political party apparatus making them viable or ready for the party of government. Though LibDems are the only party openly suggesting abandoning 'Brexit', it's not enough for me to leave Labour. Not voting Labour in places Labour can win will do one thing and that is return a Tory government.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... unding-row" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



NHS's Simon Stevens defended by MPs in health funding row
Health service chief to appear before MPs amid reports of tensions with Downing Street over ‘unenthusiastic’ attitude to cuts

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere aligned with the rest of us who don't have a Scooby what's best,

There, fixed it for you

[Willow904]

Is this new news? Has something happened today?
Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 9m9 minutes ago
Sir Keir Starmer unequivocal: we will put down amendments to the Article 50 Bill.

Only really interesting if the implication is that Labour will vote against if they can't amend it. I'm not sure they've got the balls or the leadership for that, though.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Is this new news? Has something happened today?
Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 9m9 minutes ago
Sir Keir Starmer unequivocal: we will put down amendments to the Article 50 Bill.

Only really interesting if the implication is that Labour will vote against if they can't amend it. I'm not sure they've got the balls or the leadership for that, though.

Labour's objective is not to win a vote or not, the Tories have a majority after all, but to use the Parliamentary debate to shift the centre of gravity of the national debate.

That's what needs to happen. We need, say, 60% of voters to decide that now they are firmly Remain. Until that day.....

[SpinningHugo]

Is this new news? Has something happened today?
Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 9m9 minutes ago
Sir Keir Starmer unequivocal: we will put down amendments to the Article 50 Bill.

Only really interesting if the implication is that Labour will vote against if they can't amend it. I'm not sure they've got the balls or the leadership for that, though.

Labour's objective is not to win a vote or not, the Tories have a majority after all, but to use the Parliamentary debate to shift the centre of gravity of the national debate.

That's what needs to happen. We need, say, 60% of voters to decide that now they are firmly Remain. Until that day.....

There would have been a winnable vote for single market membership.

Labour didn't want that.

[SpinningHugo]

Sturgeon's in a right fix regarding Brexit. She played her own part in it by smearing Labour as 'red Tories' and sneering at Miliband. You betcha she wanted Cameron back in Number 10 ...

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere aligned with the rest of us who don't have a Scooby what's best,

There, fixed it for you

Remain is best. Next best is the result closest to Remain. I do hope you voted in the referendum and didn't abstain or, still worse, vote Brexit.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Only really interesting if the implication is that Labour will vote against if they can't amend it. I'm not sure they've got the balls or the leadership for that, though.

Labour's objective is not to win a vote or not, the Tories have a majority after all, but to use the Parliamentary debate to shift the centre of gravity of the national debate.

That's what needs to happen. We need, say, 60% of voters to decide that now they are firmly Remain. Until that day.....

There would have been a winnable vote for single market membership.

Labour didn't want that.

Eh?

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -sinn-fein" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


SDLP backs British-Irish rule if Northern Ireland devolution fails
Nationalist opposition party leader Colum Eastwood says British direct rule would put region at mercy of ‘hard Brexit government’

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Is she? I think politically it is great for the SNP. Like the Lib Dems they can stand for Remain, while the Tories are for Brexit, and Labour nowhere aligned with the rest of us who don't have a Scooby what's best,

There, fixed it for you

Remain is best. Next best is the result closest to Remain. I do hope you voted in the referendum and didn't abstain or, still worse, vote Brexit.

Do you ever read, or take note of anything I post?

[SpinningHugo]

Hear! Hear!

If the problem is divide and rule, the weaker of the two opponents should step aside.

nowadays, that means Labour should get out of the way of the SNP who in Scotland now dwarf them.

SNP aren't in England, Wales and NI and the Greens haven't a sufficiently sophisticated political party apparatus making them viable or ready for the party of government. Though LibDems are the only party openly suggesting abandoning 'Brexit', it's not enough for me to leave Labour. Not voting Labour in places Labour can win will do one thing and that is return a Tory government.

There is no plausible scenario where the Tories don't win, and so this moral dilemma you perceive cannot arise. Indeed, propping up a dieing party is the worst thing you can do long term.

[HindleA]

Think an ever moving jelly best contained/ignored.No point in attempts at nail application to wall.Smothering is intention.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Theresa May is getting a good pasting on Twitter for rubbishing the Red Cross.

Talk of choosing your enemies!

[citizenJA]

There is no plausible scenario where the Tories don't win, and so this moral dilemma you perceive cannot arise. Indeed, propping up a dieing party is the worst thing you can do long term.

Bull. Sh**.

[Tubby Isaacs]

If the problem is divide and rule, the weaker of the two opponents should step aside.

nowadays, that means Labour should get out of the way of the SNP who in Scotland now dwarf them.

SNP aren't in England, Wales and NI and the Greens haven't a sufficiently sophisticated political party apparatus making them viable or ready for the party of government. Though LibDems are the only party openly suggesting abandoning 'Brexit', it's not enough for me to leave Labour. Not voting Labour in places Labour can win will do one thing and that is return a Tory government.

There is no plausible scenario where the Tories don't win, and so this moral dilemma you perceive cannot arise. Indeed, propping up a dieing party is the worst thing you can do long term.

What about Labour with new leader who at least keeps some distance from Brexit, and can watch the likely clusterfuck unfold all but saying "we told you so", plus Lib Dems recovering in their seats they held in England in 2010?

Greens are likely to get 1 seat in 2020.

[HindleA]

Atrocious spelling.


Must try harder.

[citizenJA]

Anyone reading the commentator long enough knew what was coming.
...'resistance is futile'...

[PorFavor]

@PaulfromYorkshire

I don't accept that you've ever posted here before today . . .

[HindleA]

My posts should be read akin to the Two Ronnies sketch of responses to a post somewhat before.

[HindleA]

Apart from this one.

[HindleA]

Thankfully the PE headline of

"May Reveals All"

Was not as worrying as suggested.

[AngryAsWell]

Just when you think things are as bad as they get, you find there are more problems for the already struggling

Sex-for-rent is the hidden danger faced by more and more female tenants
Penny Anderson
The private rental sector is growing sleazier by the day. Women need to protect themselves from predatory landlords

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ?CMP=fb_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PaulfromYorkshire]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... unding-row



NHS's Simon Stevens defended by MPs in health funding row
Health service chief to appear before MPs amid reports of tensions with Downing Street over ‘unenthusiastic’ attitude to cuts

Sounds like his appearance is dynamite.

"It doesn't help anybody to pretend there aren't finance gaps"

[HindleA]

Crossword setter no doubt happier with the possibilities of Trump,returning to the Bush era,to maintain smutty standard,Balls still an ever present.

[PorFavor]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... unding-row



NHS's Simon Stevens defended by MPs in health funding row
Health service chief to appear before MPs amid reports of tensions with Downing Street over ‘unenthusiastic’ attitude to cuts

Sounds like his appearance is dynamite.

"It doesn't help anybody to pretend there aren't finance gaps"

Yes - and he said that the NHS didn't get all the money it asked for. Although I don't suppose Theresa May accepts that, either.

[ScarletGas]

It would explain much

As you can guess, I like Rentoul. I think he is clever. He bent too far in defending Blair over Iraq, but at least served the purpose of showing what the best case to be made is.

Not surprised!

Someone else with delusions of adequacy

[AngryAsWell]

Radio 5Live are going over to Trump's news conference/speech, for anyone interested

[Willow904]

Chris Smyth ✔ @Smyth_Chris
Unprompted, Stevens brings up his plan to pay for social care by scrapping pensioner perks - another annoyance for May. He's up for this

Proposing funding solutions makes it harder for May to excuse inaction.

[PorFavor]

Steven says he is going to refresh his five-year NHS plan. He says the update will be produced by the end of March (Politics Live, Guardian)

Is that a subtle dig, I wonder?

[SpinningHugo]

SNP aren't in England, Wales and NI and the Greens haven't a sufficiently sophisticated political party apparatus making them viable or ready for the party of government. Though LibDems are the only party openly suggesting abandoning 'Brexit', it's not enough for me to leave Labour. Not voting Labour in places Labour can win will do one thing and that is return a Tory government.

There is no plausible scenario where the Tories don't win, and so this moral dilemma you perceive cannot arise. Indeed, propping up a dieing party is the worst thing you can do long term.

What about Labour with new leader who at least keeps some distance from Brexit, and can watch the likely clusterfuck unfold all but saying "we told you so", plus Lib Dems recovering in their seats they held in England in 2010?

Greens are likely to get 1 seat in 2020.

Get back to me in 2025. For 2020 there is no plausible scenario where the Tories don't win. Labour are miles behind where they'd need to be and the damage the leader has done couldn't be undone even with am immediate change.

Labour faces other problems than its leader. It is very easy to mock the Labour position on Brexit, but no position satisfies all its support. There is no New Labour coalition that can be reconstructed now, It is too late. Metropolitan liberal types like me don't belong in the same party as Corbyn.

And I'm not voting Green because I expect them to win. The Tories will win, with an increased majority.

[Tubby Isaacs]

As a policy wonk type (I mean that kindly) you don't belong with the "here's an idea, stick it in the manifesto" Green Party either. The laughable rubbish on pay that Corbyn came out with yesterday isn't the half of it.

[SpinningHugo]

There is no plausible scenario where the Tories don't win, and so this moral dilemma you perceive cannot arise. Indeed, propping up a dieing party is the worst thing you can do long term.

Bull. Sh**.

I've made a verifiable claim. We'll see in 2020. Just as we did in May 2015.

[StephenDolan]

.

[SpinningHugo]

As a policy wonk type (I mean that kindly) you don't belong with the "here's an idea, stick it in the manifesto" Green Party either. The laughable rubbish on pay that Corbyn came out with yesterday isn't the half of it.

What else do I do? Float and judge on the individual candidate?

I do (bonestly) care about Green issues like climate change. I know that the Greens have lots of fruitloop policies (eg universal income). But they are not immoral, and they are on my side broadly. They are also exactly right on the biggest issue: Europe. I'm not voting for a party led by the Chair of the Stop the War Coalition. It wouldn't matter to me what he did, I'd think it immoral to do so. So, I have to make a choice and it will be less than optimal. I don't have an optimal choice. I do however enjoy the freedom of abandoning party. Too many people see politics as a game, like football, where you support your team regardless of what they do.

[SpinningHugo]

For a nice illustration of why my vote cannot be the same as it was, I read this 30 seconds ago

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... ish-troops" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not just Trump in style.

[StephenDolan]

Stevens is really hammering the Tories over the NHS budget smoke and mirrors. Marvellous.