Friday 20th January 2017

[SpinningHugo]

@onebuttonmonkey
No one has to agree with the commentator known as SpinningHugo to appreciate and agree with the information in your excellent post.

All similar views are, I accept, coincidence and should not be taken as 'agreement' on anything.

Vote Green. Lucas' performance has been exemplary.

[letsskiptotheleft]

As onebuttonmonkey says, we are living in very strange times.

Thanks for the above post onebuttonmonkey, you put succinctly the thoughts that have been taking me days to try to formulate into words.
Agree with every word.

Agreed 100%. It seems everyday brings another botched job, wasted opportunity.

As someone said this week if Corbyn had two brains he'd be twice as stupid. There again if you surround yourself with fools it may rub off on you?

[citizenJA]

As onebuttonmonkey says, we are living in very strange times.

Thanks for the above post onebuttonmonkey, you put succinctly the thoughts that have been taking me days to try to formulate into words.
Agree with every word.

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had a few exasperated conversations with people yesterday on the whole "Labour support A50" story. The general consensus was: oh for f**k's sake. And debating whether he would or wouldn't be successful if he tried, or if the story is true or not really does miss the point of exactly where we are and what hasn't been done.

So I came home, cancelled my Labour membership DD, wrote an angry letter to the party (that will make precisely no difference whatsoever, but that I posted on the Guardian today because I'm absolutely furious, and I meant it and why not), and now I rather want to join a party whose strategy on Brexit exactly matches that of the commenter you linked to.

(cJA bold)

Good luck, sweetheart.
Political parties aren't selected off a shelf like sweets.
Abandoning the Labour party because of a crap leader gives country, people to Tories and the UK will lose all that's best about the EU anyway.

[citizenJA]

@onebuttonmonkey
No one has to agree with the commentator known as SpinningHugo to appreciate and agree with the information in your excellent post.

All similar views are, I accept, coincidence and should not be taken as 'agreement' on anything.

Vote Green. Lucas' performance has been exemplary.

Yeah, sure that single MP and the Green party will take the UK far, won't it.

[SpinningHugo]

@onebuttonmonkey
No one has to agree with the commentator known as SpinningHugo to appreciate and agree with the information in your excellent post.

All similar views are, I accept, coincidence and should not be taken as 'agreement' on anything.

Vote Green. Lucas' performance has been exemplary.

Yeah, sure that single MP and the Green party will take the UK far, won't it.

As I've said, if there were a remote prospect of Labour forming a government, that would have some force.

There isn't.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

As onebuttonmonkey says, we are living in very strange times.

Thanks for the above post onebuttonmonkey, you put succinctly the thoughts that have been taking me days to try to formulate into words.
Agree with every word.

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had a few exasperated conversations with people yesterday on the whole "Labour support A50" story. The general consensus was: oh for f**k's sake. And debating whether he would or wouldn't be successful if he tried, or if the story is true or not really does miss the point of exactly where we are and what hasn't been done.

So I came home, cancelled my Labour membership DD, wrote an angry letter to the party (that will make precisely no difference whatsoever, but that I posted on the Guardian today because I'm absolutely furious, and I meant it and why not), and now I rather want to join a party whose strategy on Brexit exactly matches that of the commenter you linked to.

(cJA bold)

Good luck, sweetheart.
Political parties aren't selected off a shelf like sweets.
Abandoning the Labour party because of a crap leader gives country, people to Tories and the UK will lose all that's best about the EU anyway.

Brilliant post JA

[citizenJA]

And what is it like to only realise *now* why it mattered whether the opposition opposed this *now*. The government doesn't have a big majority, as you say. A Parliamentary majority in favour of a more moderate position, such as staying in the single market, was achievable. that is what Miliband or Owen Smith would have done.

Just not Labour as it is now led. Very sad.

(cJA edit)

This would be meaningful from someone who cared. I don't think you do - not now, not ever. I base my judgement on your work over the years.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

As onebuttonmonkey says, we are living in very strange times.

Thanks for the above post onebuttonmonkey, you put succinctly the thoughts that have been taking me days to try to formulate into words.
Agree with every word.

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had a few exasperated conversations with people yesterday on the whole "Labour support A50" story. The general consensus was: oh for f**k's sake. And debating whether he would or wouldn't be successful if he tried, or if the story is true or not really does miss the point of exactly where we are and what hasn't been done.

So I came home, cancelled my Labour membership DD, wrote an angry letter to the party (that will make precisely no difference whatsoever, but that I posted on the Guardian today because I'm absolutely furious, and I meant it and why not), and now I rather want to join a party whose strategy on Brexit exactly matches that of the commenter you linked to.

(cJA bold)

Good luck, sweetheart.
Political parties aren't selected off a shelf like sweets.
Abandoning the Labour party because of a crap leader gives country, people to Tories and the UK will lose all that's best about the EU anyway.

I didn't want to sully my first thankful response with my views. But I couldn't agree more with this. It's not Corbyn's fault he's leader it's Labour's.

This is the point that is so often forgotten IMHO. The "left" always put up a candidate. Probably we'd think that a good thing. Trouble was he won in 2015 because there was nobody better. No whose fault is that?

[yahyah]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 36516.html

brexit-latest-tim-farron-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-opposition-divisive

Farron rules out electoral pact with Labour

He may be right about how future generations will view Labour's response.

Banging on about it may also help the Lib Dems move on from their role as Tory collaborators. They can argue that the coalition was time limited, and brought about by the need to unite to help get the country out of ''Labour's mess'', but Brexit is forever.

They can argue that.

I'd like to hear the argument defending the former.

As to the latter, any Lib Dem using the word forever in the context of politics needs swiftly putting in their place.

Whether you'd like to hear it or not they may still try it. What we want and what we get tend to be different things.

[citizenJA]

Stay together, everyone, please.

[onebuttonmonkey]

As onebuttonmonkey says, we are living in very strange times.

Thanks for the above post onebuttonmonkey, you put succinctly the thoughts that have been taking me days to try to formulate into words.
Agree with every word.

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had a few exasperated conversations with people yesterday on the whole "Labour support A50" story. The general consensus was: oh for f**k's sake. And debating whether he would or wouldn't be successful if he tried, or if the story is true or not really does miss the point of exactly where we are and what hasn't been done.

So I came home, cancelled my Labour membership DD, wrote an angry letter to the party (that will make precisely no difference whatsoever, but that I posted on the Guardian today because I'm absolutely furious, and I meant it and why not), and now I rather want to join a party whose strategy on Brexit exactly matches that of the commenter you linked to.

(cJA bold)


Good luck, sweetheart.
Political parties aren't selected off a shelf like sweets.
Abandoning the Labour party because of a crap leader gives country, people to Tories and the UK will lose all that's best about the EU anyway.

With all due respect, sweetheart, I think my comment here makes it clear it's not just the leader that's the problem. Equally, if you're interested in why I've left - rather than jumping straight to trying to make me out to be the problem with an opposition party that is neglecting to oppose anything - then I'm more than happy to answer the question you were too busy answering for yourself.

Your argument - if that's not too dignified a term for a sneer so busy tripping over its own tongue to get spouted to notice its own incoherent content - seems to be:

"It doesn't matter if you think Labour aren't a decent opposition. What matters is you stay with them. Because the only way you get an opposition is by supporting a group that's failing to oppose anything. If you don't like it, stay. And if you do like it, stay. Or you're just fickle."

But hey, if you think sticking with a party that is failing to reflect your own principles as well as failing to live up to the ones it sets itself is the best way to further anything other a massive contradiction in terms, I can see we don't belong in the same political organisation. I look forward to the many years of successful hobbling your loyal programme of shooting yourself in the foot is bound to bring about.

[AnatolyKasparov]

There may be very little chance of Labour forming a government at the next GE.

However there is still more chance - one might even say, infinitely more chance - of them doing so than the Greens.

And as for the future beyond that, speculation is pointless and (as recent events have rather demonstrated, one might think) futile.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Labour in Ireland were in the same boat. Small part of a coalition with Fine Gael, couldn't really do all that much. Public blamed them for everything that happened, even though the Troika were basically in charge.

[StephenDolan]

He may be right about how future generations will view Labour's response.

Banging on about it may also help the Lib Dems move on from their role as Tory collaborators. They can argue that the coalition was time limited, and brought about by the need to unite to help get the country out of ''Labour's mess'', but Brexit is forever.

They can argue that.

I'd like to hear the argument defending the former.

As to the latter, any Lib Dem using the word forever in the context of politics needs swiftly putting in their place.

Whether you'd like to hear it or not they may still try it. What we want and what we get tend to be different things.

I hope they do try to justify their coalition jaunt.

Your second sentence could apply to pretty much every post made recently regarding Brexit, A50, etc, etc.

[yahyah]

Excellent post OneButtonMonkey.
Well put and echoing views that many people I've met in the real world are articulating, even some who felt favourably towards JC.

[StephenDolan]

Labour in Ireland were in the same boat. Small part of a coalition with Fine Gael, couldn't really do all that much. Public blamed them for everything that happened, even though the Troika were basically in charge.

Confidence and supply?

[StephenDolan]

Excellent post OneButtonMonkey.
Well put and echoing views that many people I've met in the real world are articulating, even some who felt favourably towards JC.

How many people have you met from other worlds, yahyah?

[citizenJA]

What have the SNP achieved for the UK?
What can the SNP achieve for the UK?
I wish the SNP, Green party well, I mean no harm to them or the people relying on them to represent them in Parliament.
What can a disparate collection of UK MPs do against the money and tenacity of Tories?

[yahyah]

Yes, SD, that's exactly what I meant. It also refers to life in general not just politics.

[yahyah]

Excellent post OneButtonMonkey.
Well put and echoing views that many people I've met in the real world are articulating, even some who felt favourably towards JC.

How many people have you met from other worlds, yahyah?

Quite a few.

I mean people not part of the ''You are a Blairite if you can see Corbyn's struggling'' World.
It has a lot of inhabitants.

[SpinningHugo]

There may be very little chance of Labour forming a government at the next GE.

However there is still more chance - one might even say, infinitely more chance - of them doing so than the Greens.

And as for the future beyond that, speculation is pointless and (as recent events have rather demonstrated, one might think) futile.

I don't think the last is right. We can make a best prediction about the future, and should act accordingly.

If Labour is not heavily defeated in 2020 things will carry on much as they are now.

Labour is too weak to win, too strong to die.

There has to be some kind of reordering of the opposition to the Tories. Blindly carrying on supporting Labour, when it is so obviously dysfunctional, merely puts that further back in time.

[We also shouldn't do anything immoral. I have other reasons why I cannot vote for the party led by Corbyn/McDonnell.]

[Tubby Isaacs]

Labour in Ireland were in the same boat. Small part of a coalition with Fine Gael, couldn't really do all that much. Public blamed them for everything that happened, even though the Troika were basically in charge.

Confidence and supply?

In Ireland, I think the stability was needed. The Irish people responded to Labour's disgrace by bringing back Fianna Fail.

In the UK, I agree.

[AngryAsWell]

From AS blog again
Following on from Tim Farrons comments on Corbyn yesterday, we now have Keir Starmer arguing that the Lib Dems only speak for the 48% who voted Remain.

Anushka Asthana and Rowena Mason have this story:

Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, has accused the Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, of “fanning the flames of division” in Britain by ignoring the needs of those who voted to leave the EU.

The senior Labour politician, who is leading the opposition response to Brexit, said Farron has “absolutely nothing to say to the 52%” who voted to leave the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 20-january" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is becoming a farce now, If Labour can't speak for me - and the 69% (?) - of its members who voted to remain, who do they think they are speaking for.

[onebuttonmonkey]

Excellent post OneButtonMonkey.
Well put and echoing views that many people I've met in the real world are articulating, even some who felt favourably towards JC.

How many people have you met from other worlds, yahyah?

Quite a few.

I mean people not part of the ''You are a Blairite if you can see Corbyn's struggling'' World.
It has a lot of inhabitants.

The other day was quite a landmark for me.

On the one hand, I had a squabble on Twitter with someone who was criticising Corbyn for saying he wouldn't let Blair be an MP. I gently pointed out that only letting people you like be candidates was one of the trademarks of a certain T. Blair. The worst that could be said was they might be as bad each other in this regard. It did not go well, as you might imagine - they immediately jumped to the conclusion I was a Corbynista and started grandstanding about how terrible lefties were destroying everything, et cetera, electability, I'm the problem, blah blah.

And at the same time, I had an argument with some momentum types who couldn't understand that "fake news" was not the same as "news which I would prefer wasn't true". And that descended into a squabble after I pointed out that the article by Assange's chum accusing a fairly bland article of being fake news was at least as selectively edited itself. The louder momentum types immediately accused me of being a Blair and said how terrible righties like me were destroying everything, et cetera, fake news, I'm the problem, blah blah.

I think I'm kind of done with all that. The people I talk to normally - at work, friends, people I know on social media rather than those I only know through it - aren't either of these groups and are equally alienated by both. They are looking around and they see nothing that supports them or for them to support. They're not daft enough to fall for the Trump/Farage "we're outsiders and different" routine. And they're smart enough to treat news critically without thinking this is the same as "IT'S ALL LIES". Some of them are on the left, some aren't, some supported Corbyn, some didn't. All of them are mortified by the yawning silence on Brexit, the missing in action nothingness where they actually expect the Labour Party to be.

They don't think whether or not Corbyn is the leader is the biggest problem Labour faces, and they're right. They mostly don't have much of an interest in joining any party, and for good reason, although they'll vote. Like 48% of voters in the referendum, there is virtually no politician speaking for or to them. They also see the howling wings of left and right shrieking at each other and just want to give up. Increasingly, I know exactly how they feel. And I don't see that problem going anywhere right now...

[citizenJA]

Philip Hammond blames Tony Blair for Brexit vote
Chancellor tells Davos audience ex-PM’s failure to control flow of eastern European workers fuelled anti-immigration views

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... mmigration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh jesus

[Tubby Isaacs]

Brexit is now basically the Tory Government.

[Willow904]

From AS blog again
Following on from Tim Farrons comments on Corbyn yesterday, we now have Keir Starmer arguing that the Lib Dems only speak for the 48% who voted Remain.

Anushka Asthana and Rowena Mason have this story:

Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, has accused the Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, of “fanning the flames of division” in Britain by ignoring the needs of those who voted to leave the EU.

The senior Labour politician, who is leading the opposition response to Brexit, said Farron has “absolutely nothing to say to the 52%” who voted to leave the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 20-january" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is becoming a farce now, If Labour can't speak for me - and the 69% (?) - of its members who voted to remain, who do they think they are speaking for.

It seems to me the only compromise that serves the needs of both leave and remain voters is to leave the EU but remain in the single market.
Labour aren't coming anywhere near sounding like they support this compromise, however, and as long as Theresa May is pushing for a hard Brexit, someone has to push back. If that's going to be Tim Farron, so be it. And seriously, if Labour is going to be in the business of attacking people who are clear about opposing Theresa May's hard Brexit.....sheesh.

[citizenJA]

There's two parties
1) Regular people 2) Tory

[Tubby Isaacs]

Philip Hammond blames Tony Blair for Brexit vote
Chancellor tells Davos audience ex-PM’s failure to control flow of eastern European workers fuelled anti-immigration views

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... mmigration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh jesus

Nothing to do with his side politicizing it, pretending they were going to cut it, and not being able to.

Not to mention their constant lying that it was doing harm.

[Eric_WLothian]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2nVsmxWgAAYbe4.jpg

Brexit is now basically the Tory Government.

8% of UKIP were against Brexit or 'don't knows'? Why do they support UKIP?

[citizenJA]

From AS blog again
Following on from Tim Farrons comments on Corbyn yesterday, we now have Keir Starmer arguing that the Lib Dems only speak for the 48% who voted Remain.

Anushka Asthana and Rowena Mason have this story:

Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, has accused the Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, of “fanning the flames of division” in Britain by ignoring the needs of those who voted to leave the EU.

The senior Labour politician, who is leading the opposition response to Brexit, said Farron has “absolutely nothing to say to the 52%” who voted to leave the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 20-january" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is becoming a farce now, If Labour can't speak for me - and the 69% (?) - of its members who voted to remain, who do they think they are speaking for.

It seems to me the only compromise that serves the needs of both leave and remain voters is to leave the EU but remain in the single market.
Labour aren't coming anywhere near sounding like they support this compromise, however, and as long as Theresa May is pushing for a hard Brexit, someone has to push back. If that's going to be Tim Farron, so be it. And seriously, if Labour is going to be in the business of attacking people who are clear about opposing Theresa May's hard Brexit.....sheesh.

(cJA bold)

I know, it's insane. What are people supposed to do with that? This isn't a game, it's not a policy overturned next time. Get Clive Lewis sorting this here out.

[onebuttonmonkey]

Brexit is now basically the Tory Government.

This also makes me even more baffled why there isn't a proper, organised opposition to Brexit from everyone across the house. Of course Farron is a mealy-mouthed hypocrite. But he's also excellent useful idiot material, and why wouldn't we want to work with people against a bigger common enemy. Especially when voters in non-Con parties so abundantly oppose what's happened.

Also - what's 79% of all LibDem voters? That's, like, seventeen people, right?

[RogerOThornhill]

In other news, this is a splendid piece of nonsense.

The Government has put teachers back in charge – what should we do with this freedom?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/20 ... -freedom2/

It’s for these reasons that I am such a fan of the academy and free school agenda of recent years - these reforms liberate schools to pursue the things that they consider to be most important for their students. Heads can prioritise the subjects and experiences that they believe their students will benefit from - and do less of the stuff handed down from upon high. Doing this also makes us more accountable - we can’t hide behind the old “the government made me do it” excuse when they no longer have the power to enforce their (often misguided) fads and gimmicks.

Except that they still can as we've seen with Prevent.

However, good discipline and high expectations of students and staff cost nothing. Smart uniforms and traditional knowledge-rich curriculums cost the same as sloppier alternatives. The top performing schools can guide the rest of us towards the kind of things that will really make a difference - we just need to be humble enough to learn from them. And If schools aren’t doing so, understandably parents will increasingly ask their Heads why not.

We’ve been implementing many of these changes at my school in the past year or so, to make the place even better, and we’re seeing the impact already. We could only make these improvements so quickly because of the academy freedoms we have & the empowered mindset they create. And I can’t wait to see new stars emerging in future tables, to see what else we can learn from others.

Utter rubbish - nobody is stopping any school anything like this and haven't been able to since Local management of Schools was introduced more than 25 years ago.

PTE is just a bunch of Gove-ites that have been left out in the cold since May took over.

[adam]

They don't think whether or not Corbyn is the leader is the biggest problem Labour faces, and they're right. They mostly don't have much of an interest in joining any party, and for good reason, although they'll vote. Like 48% of voters in the referendum, there is virtually no politician speaking for or to them. They also see the howling wings of left and right shrieking at each other and just want to give up. Increasingly, I know exactly how they feel. And I don't see that problem going anywhere right now...

I pretty much agree with this although I don't necessarily see much point in voting. I'm not sure there is much more worth doing than point out the ridiculous and awful things that people are doing, although those people will never pay any attention and you can only reach the echo chamber.

The argument in the background about Article 50 and what it should mean is that, thanks to useless David Cameron's useless binary referendum, whilst we can argue until we are blue in the face about what 'leave' actually means, we can't argue that we voted to leave the EU. It was a stupid and hugely self destructive decision but it's still a done thing. The leave campaign spent their time ridiculously claiming we would get everything we wanted - it's shameful in the extreme that we actually had a politician actually saying out loud that in a question of international diplomacy against a huge body and all of its individual members, our policy was having our cake and eating it - but I think that

1) For the time being we (Whoever 'we' are. Me and my friends. Ha!) have simply lost. In all sorts of ways, and sometimes not by much, but that doesn't matter.
2) The correct disdain and ridicule Labour are receiving from their core and retained (to some degree or another) supporters for their current stance is just the flip side of the disdain they would be receiving from a huge potential electorate if they were shouting no. It doesn't matter that those shouts are self destructive in the extreme, they were just so in the referendum campaign and the people shouting and voting leave didn't believe, and didn't care. They still won't now.
3) Labour would have been better off standing back and saying 'get on with your stupid mess' but that would have just attracted them a different slice of disdain.
4) For the time being we have simply lost.

Repeat to fade...

[yahyah]

Hopefully people who are still members and who agree with OBM's post will make their views clear to their branches.
If the membership exert pressure over the way Brexit is being mismanaged by the leadership, Corbyn will surely have to do something or be shown to be a hypocrite. With any luck he might have to resign.

Also agree with OBM's comment about Owen Smith. He ain't the leader. He made his views on Article 50 very clear late last year and got no thanks for it. Can't blame him for not wanting to stand in line for a barrage of hate again.

[adam]

Philip Hammond blames Tony Blair for Brexit vote
Chancellor tells Davos audience ex-PM’s failure to control flow of eastern European workers fuelled anti-immigration views

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... mmigration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh jesus

Nothing to do with his side politicizing it, pretending they were going to cut it, and not being able to.

Not to mention their constant lying that it was doing harm.

We looted eastern europe, taking control of industries, commodities and utilities and taking whatever money we could out of them, when the East fell, because nobody else had any money to invest to rebuild, and our quid pro quo for that was free movement. We took their wealth and we agreed they could follow it in return. We are deeply dishonourable in forgetting this.

[yahyah]

Nice to see Letsskip, Lost Soul and others here today.

[citizenJA]

Nice to see Letsskip, Lost Soul and others here today.

Agreed.

[AngryAsWell]

Nice to see Letsskip, Lost Soul and others here today.

...and onebuttonmonkey

[Tubby Isaacs]

oh jesus

Nothing to do with his side politicizing it, pretending they were going to cut it, and not being able to.

Not to mention their constant lying that it was doing harm.

We looted eastern europe, taking control of industries, commodities and utilities and taking whatever money we could out of them, when the East fell, because nobody else had any money to invest to rebuild, and our quid pro quo for that was free movement. We took their wealth and we agreed they could follow it in return. We are deeply dishonourable in forgetting this.

Yeah, it's a quid pro quo, not a freebie.

[citizenJA]

Brexit is now basically the Tory Government.

This also makes me even more baffled why there isn't a proper, organised opposition to Brexit from everyone across the house. Of course Farron is a mealy-mouthed hypocrite. But he's also excellent useful idiot material, and why wouldn't we want to work with people against a bigger common enemy. Especially when voters in non-Con parties so abundantly oppose what's happened.

Also - what's 79% of all LibDem voters? That's, like, seventeen people, right?

(cJA bold)

You and I both.

[citizenJA]

Nice to see Letsskip, Lost Soul and others here today.

...and onebuttonmonkey

Agreed.

[yahyah]

Roger O'T@

Thought you might be interested in a report of results of the new Welsh only maths GCSE.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/educa ... s-12476458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Eric_WLothian]

Hopefully people who are still members and who agree with OBM's post will make their views clear to their branches.
If the membership exert pressure over the way Brexit is being mismanaged by the leadership, Corbyn will surely have to do something or be shown to be a hypocrite. With any luck he might have to resign.

Also agree with OBM's comment about Owen Smith. He ain't the leader. He made his views on Article 50 very clear late last year and got no thanks for it. Can't blame him for not wanting to stand in line for a barrage of hate again.

Personally, I find it difficult to distinguish between JC's personal opinions and LP policy.

I voted LibDem until Clegg sold them out. I voted Labour at the last election, as the best alternative with EM as leader. Where next? Brexit is the biggest issue and a looming economic disaster (imo). As I've said before, the LibDems are the only ones speaking for the 48%.

[pk1]

I was just thinking yesterday how compelling Owen Smith has been in opposing the trigger of Article 50.

Not.

Why on earth would he ? He was dished a vatful of abuse when he challenged Corbyn & I don't imagine he's keen for another dunking any time soon.

You surely can't deny though that if he had been elected leader, Labour wouldn't be in this dizzying mess they currently are ?!

If an election was held tomorrow, I would have to abstain because there's no way I could vote Labour with Corbyn at the helm. Didn't like him before June 23rd 2016 but now the only feeling I have for him is contempt.

[AngryAsWell]

Meanwhile,
Soros predicted economic upheaval in Britain and substantial difficulties in bringing about a clean break with the European Union.... and that "it is unlikely that prime minister May is actually going to remain in power. Already she has a very divided cabinet, a very small majority in parliament. And I think she will not last,”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... e-dictator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So who do people think will be the one to knife May?
My money is on Osborne who (in the fantasy island where I live at the moment) will stop Brexit dead in its tracks by saying the booming economy he produced (!) (unlike Labours mess) has been wrecked and so the nonsense needs to end (or words to that effect...)
Any one any other ideas?

[citizenJA]

I was just thinking yesterday how compelling Owen Smith has been in opposing the trigger of Article 50.

Not.

Why on earth would he ? He was dished a vatful of abuse when he challenged Corbyn & I don't imagine he's keen for another dunking any time soon.

You surely can't deny though that if he had been elected leader, Labour wouldn't be in this dizzying mess they currently are ?!

If an election was held tomorrow, I would have to abstain because there's no way I could vote Labour with Corbyn at the helm. Didn't like him before June 23rd 2016 but now the only feeling I have for him is contempt.

(cJA bold)

Yes. Corbyn's actions following the EU referendum result first confused me. He's incoherent, it's not gotten clearer.

[adam]

The boss of Nissan Carlos Ghosn has admitted that the car giant's UK investments will be "re-evaluated" if Theresa May delivers a bad Brexit deal, despite last October's high-profile commitment by the firm to build its next Qashqai and X-Trail model at its Sunderland plant.

Indepindie

[citizenJA]

Hopefully people who are still members and who agree with OBM's post will make their views clear to their branches.
If the membership exert pressure over the way Brexit is being mismanaged by the leadership, Corbyn will surely have to do something or be shown to be a hypocrite. With any luck he might have to resign.

Also agree with OBM's comment about Owen Smith. He ain't the leader. He made his views on Article 50 very clear late last year and got no thanks for it. Can't blame him for not wanting to stand in line for a barrage of hate again.

Personally, I find it difficult to distinguish between JC's personal opinions and LP policy.

I voted LibDem until Clegg sold them out. I voted Labour at the last election, as the best alternative with EM as leader. Where next? Brexit is the biggest issue and a looming economic disaster (imo). As I've said before, the LibDems are the only ones speaking for the 48%.

Yes, 'Brexit' is disaster. I want to see some distance put between wherever the hell Corbyn stands and the Labour MPs who'll act
as their conscience guides them in the best interests of people and country without fear. I think the distance exists.

[AngryAsWell]

The boss of Nissan Carlos Ghosn has admitted that the car giant's UK investments will be "re-evaluated" if Theresa May delivers a bad Brexit deal, despite last October's high-profile commitment by the firm to build its next Qashqai and X-Trail model at its Sunderland plant.

Indepindie

That's going to put the cat amongst the pigeons