Monday 23rd January 2017

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 6:41 am

Morning.

Welsh Labour & Plaid have negotiated a temporary cessation of hostilities and jointly produced a White Paper that deals with Wales' future under Brexit.

The White Paper is published today and Carwyn J. & Leanne Wood are in London this morning to publicise their views.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... e-12491404" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 7:07 am

Some good posts last night - just read them. Thanks.

And when the rota's made up at the other place for today's 'I'll go and poke sticks at the FTNers and tell them how wrong they are and then come back for praise' representative - remind them to bring cake please. Preferably chocolate but a good fruit cake will do.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 8:11 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Welsh Labour & Plaid have negotiated a temporary cessation of hostilities and jointly produced a White Paper that deals with Wales' future under Brexit.

The White Paper is published today and Carwyn J. & Leanne Wood are in London this morning to publicise their views.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... e-12491404" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is very welcome.

Carwyn Jones came out very strongly for remaining in the single market this morning. He talked about the "Norway" option. It's so important people are reminded that this was one of the options people voting leave were offered.

This stance is a strong one, offering a very distinctive alternative to what the government are offering. Will other Labour voices back up this message coming from the elected representatives of Wales or will they continue to sit on the fence?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 8:14 am

Do you know something I came here over the weekend to try to present an alternative view of the situation regarding Brexit

I didn't come to 'poke sticks' and I enjoyed some parts of the debate although it is clear I wasn't particularly welcome

I did find some of the arguments difficult to follow as it seems that unless one accepts that the current leadership of the Labour Party is to blame for all ills then it is difficult to get any traction.

There seems to still be a reticence from (thankfully) a few posters to move on from the leadership election, despite them proudly claiming support for another party

In saying that though I it was a good discussion from my side and helped challenge some of my assumptions

I hope I have set out plainly enough what my opinion is on Brexit.....I am happy to accept where I am wrong but don'the expect me to just agree for the sake of it.

Brexit is an emotional subject but I am not going to hide my opinion that some of the ways to counter it will end up being counter productive

If you don't want me here or want to listen to my views then please ban me and I am then stopped.....

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 8:20 am

In my view everyone is welcome to debate here (within the rules of the board).
I don't want to see anyone hitting the man and not the ball (including me). Our history of not doing this is why I'm still here.
Please let's leave anything else out of it.
--------------------------------------------------
(line drawn - let's move on)

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 8:39 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Do you know something I came here over the weekend to try to present an alternative view of the situation regarding Brexit

I didn't come to 'poke sticks' and I enjoyed some parts of the debate although it is clear I wasn't particularly welcome

I did find some of the arguments difficult to follow as it seems that unless one accepts that the current leadership of the Labour Party is to blame for all ills then it is difficult to get any traction.

There seems to still be a reticence from (thankfully) a few posters to move on from the leadership election, despite them proudly claiming support for another party

In saying that though I it was a good discussion from my side and helped challenge some of my assumptions

I hope I have set out plainly enough what my opinion is on Brexit.....I am happy to accept where I am wrong but don'the expect me to just agree for the sake of it.

Brexit is an emotional subject but I am not going to hide my opinion that some of the ways to counter it will end up being counter productive

If you don't want me here or want to listen to my views then please ban me and I am then stopped.....

For what it's worth, I greatly appreciated your views & presence & efforts, though was a bit surprised to see that you (maybe) felt it was falling on deaf ears.
I was more concerned by ChrisDean's parting message of 'get a life', I hope she's ok & looked at the 'other place' for clues - I haven't been able to read much there previously because it was a bit beyond my previous (rip) mobiles capability, but generally it's pleasant, chatty & full of contributors much missed over here.
What is irritating though is the running commentary about how horrible it is over here, which I think gives the exact impression that yahyah just mentioned.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 8:56 am

Should people move on from something they think is important ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 8:58 am

@Willow

I forgot to mention that the Lib Dems...or rather the one Assembly Member the Lib Dems still have, also had input in today's White Paper for Wales.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 9:09 am

''May will signal greater state intervention in the economy''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 9:36 am

yahyah wrote:''May will signal greater state intervention in the economy''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So they say, but I suspect 'signals' will be all we get, as with most of Mayhem's agenda. No doubt if they do actually do anything, they'll make a hash of it.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 9:57 am

gilsey wrote:
yahyah wrote:''May will signal greater state intervention in the economy''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So they say, but I suspect 'signals' will be all we get, as with most of Mayhem's agenda. No doubt if they do actually do anything, they'll make a hash of it.

Don't worry, so long as it spawns multiple Tanks on the Lawn pieces, distracts from the NHS and is used to call Corbyn useless, job done.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 9:58 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 41016.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

brexit-latest-news-uk-three-years-slow-growth-rising-unemployment-reduced-incomes-ernst-young

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:10 am

Morning all.

Been pondering on ifs, buts and maybes.

Alan Johnson, Labour leader.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:12 am

StephenDolan wrote:
gilsey wrote:
yahyah wrote:''May will signal greater state intervention in the economy''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So they say, but I suspect 'signals' will be all we get, as with most of Mayhem's agenda. No doubt if they do actually do anything, they'll make a hash of it.
Don't worry, so long as it spawns multiple Tanks on the Lawn pieces, distracts from the NHS and is used to call Corbyn useless, job done.

Prime minister’s offer of support to five key sectors will exploit post-Brexit lifting of EU state aid rules

She will say the government would be prepared to deregulate, help with trade deals or create institutions to boost skills or research if any sector could show this would address specific problems.

I thought EU rules already allowed aid to address specific problems, would be interesting to have some examples of what government might be willing to do that couldn't have been done already.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:20 am

tinybgoat wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
gilsey wrote: So they say, but I suspect 'signals' will be all we get, as with most of Mayhem's agenda. No doubt if they do actually do anything, they'll make a hash of it.
Don't worry, so long as it spawns multiple Tanks on the Lawn pieces, distracts from the NHS and is used to call Corbyn useless, job done.

Prime minister’s offer of support to five key sectors will exploit post-Brexit lifting of EU state aid rules

She will say the government would be prepared to deregulate, help with trade deals or create institutions to boost skills or research if any sector could show this would address specific problems.
I thought EU rules already allowed aid to address specific problems, would be interesting to have some examples of what government might be willing to do that couldn't have been done already.

Indeed. Clive Lewis should be all over the responses to this inevitable smoke and mirrors.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:22 am

Morning.

Glorious sunny day here,temperature in the eighties.The streets were lined with the largest crowd ever on my way to the newsagents.Even "Barry" from Eastenders came to sing a Labi Siffre song as I scaled the two steps to gain entry.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:23 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Been pondering on ifs, buts and maybes.

Alan Johnson, Labour leader.

Back in 2010, as a caretaker for a few years whilst the younger generation ready themselves?

Thought it a runner at the time and still do - we will never know if it might have been feasible had he not been distracted by personal problems back then.

Though I don't see him as a longer term prospect, his fatal flaws that showed so clearly in last year's referendum - complacency and laziness - would ultimately have asserted themselves.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:23 am

yahyah wrote:Should people move on from something they think is important ?

No, but ftn may need a first aid tent, counselling sessions
& most importantly, refreshments getting in.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:26 am

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2017/01/ ... oceedings/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Judge criticises local authority practice in 148 week care proceedings

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:26 am

Morning all.

Green Investment Bank sale thrown into doubt

https://www.ft.com/content/dc55fea6-e0b ... 5580d6e5fb

The sale of the Green Investment Bank has been thrown into doubt with reports that the government could scrap the long-running process and opt for a flotation instead.

The government-owned bank, which has invested £2.7bn in green energy projects, has been up for sale since 2015 with Australian investment bank Macquarie the most likely buyer. However, the process has taken longer than many expected. The privatisation has been attacked, with opposition politicians including Sir Vince Cable, the former business secretary, claiming that Macquarie would look to asset strip the bank.

On Sunday a Whitehall official denied that the sale process was about to be aborted but admitted that an IPO was possible.

However, he said a flotation was not imminent. “It’s jumping numerous steps to suggest a decision has already been made. It’s jumping several hurdles and issues,” he said.

The government will come under pressure to clarify its strategy on Wednesday, when the sale is debated in the House of Commons. The potential change of plan was first reported by The Sunday Times.

So at the same point that May signals an intention for government to intervene in industry, they're still taking forward the idea of selling this off. That really doesn't make any sense.

Once it's sold, the focus will almost certainly change and it'll become just another bank.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:27 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Textile firms paying UK workers £3 per hour, investigation finds

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:27 am

RIP Jaki Liebezeit.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:31 am

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2 ... ductivity/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

National minimum wages improve productivity
Government and firms may not grasp the potential for significant productivity advances, write Richard Croucher, Marian Rizov and Thomas Lange

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:32 am

tinybgoat wrote:
yahyah wrote:Should people move on from something they think is important ?
No, but ftn may need a first aid tent, counselling sessions
& most importantly, refreshments getting in.

No they shouldn't yy, getting distracted by not as important, fluff, intended outrage, dead cat material generated by politicians diverts from what should be the laser focus on the big stuff. Imho

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:32 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:RIP Jaki Liebezeit.

Yep, a sad loss.

I saw him some years back in a Jah Wobble group called Solaris with Bill Laswell, Graham Haynes and Harold Budd. Wonderful lineup and such a great groove.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:34 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Been pondering on ifs, buts and maybes.

Alan Johnson, Labour leader.

Morning
He doesn't want it, he's said many times it's a job he won't do.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:34 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Green Investment Bank sale thrown into doubt

https://www.ft.com/content/dc55fea6-e0b ... 5580d6e5fb

The sale of the Green Investment Bank has been thrown into doubt with reports that the government could scrap the long-running process and opt for a flotation instead.

The government-owned bank, which has invested £2.7bn in green energy projects, has been up for sale since 2015 with Australian investment bank Macquarie the most likely buyer. However, the process has taken longer than many expected. The privatisation has been attacked, with opposition politicians including Sir Vince Cable, the former business secretary, claiming that Macquarie would look to asset strip the bank.

On Sunday a Whitehall official denied that the sale process was about to be aborted but admitted that an IPO was possible.

However, he said a flotation was not imminent. “It’s jumping numerous steps to suggest a decision has already been made. It’s jumping several hurdles and issues,” he said.

The government will come under pressure to clarify its strategy on Wednesday, when the sale is debated in the House of Commons. The potential change of plan was first reported by The Sunday Times.
So at the same point that May signals an intention for government to intervene in industry, they're still taking forward the idea of selling this off. That really doesn't make any sense.

Once it's sold, the focus will almost certainly change and it'll become just another bank.

It won't be just another bank. It'll still be referred to as The Green Bank by the government. And did I fail to mention Fred the Shred or rev Flowers?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:42 am

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 2m2 minutes ago

Jamie Reed appointed to the Manor of Northstead, Tristram Hunt gets the Chiltern Hundreds. You'd want Northstead, really.

That's them gone officially then...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:44 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Second World War. My National Story

Duncan Weldon

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:47 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-de ... e-37766110" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Adopted sons 'unjustly' taken from parents

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:52 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 2m2 minutes ago

Jamie Reed appointed to the Manor of Northstead, Tristram Hunt gets the Chiltern Hundreds. You'd want Northstead, really.
That's them gone officially then...

Clears the way for Feb 23 polls in both.

I note that the Tories are yet to select a candidate in Copeland - all the other "main" parties have done so.

Slightly odd if they are as confident of winning it as they claim?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 10:58 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-de ... e-37766110

Adopted sons 'unjustly' taken from parents

Ehlers-Danlos syndrome runs in our family, very little recognised and is exhausting syndrome to deal with. That these poor parents have lost their children because of it is appalling.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 11:06 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 41016.html

brexit-latest-news-uk-three-years-slow-growth-rising-unemployment-reduced-incomes-ernst-young

I was going to post a series of these but got distracted.

Here's another

http://news.sky.com/story/city-gloom-de ... s-10739767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

city-gloom-deepens-at-fastest-since-2008-amid-brexit-fears

Unfortunately we don't seem to be as immune to Brexit fears as it first seemed....

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 11:23 am

http://www.katebelgrave.com/#article/9104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How the Universal Credit bureaucracy can screw your chance of paying rent

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 11:33 am

https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare- ... ation-cuts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NHS pathology labs are ripe for privatisation and cuts

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 11:40 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... bing-libya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thatcher forced to intervene over Tebbit’s ‘obsessive’ criticism of BBC, papers reveal
PM’s advisers warned her chairman’s 1986 attacks on reporting of US bombing of Libya could turn into repeat of Westland affair

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 11:41 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... tion-plans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maria Miller: Brexit hindering compulsory sex education plans
Chair of women and equalities committee launches campaign amid concern over harassment and violence in schools

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 11:55 am

'There would appear to be a glaringly obvious flaw in Theresa May’s plan. It’s called a lack of people who might create the demand for whatever it is she wishes to invest in. This is already one of the crises of modern capitalism: it is unable to think of things that people want or can afford. It is not creating demand because people aren’t really that bothered about more stuff. What they want are three things. They are affordable homes, secure jobs and a future for their children.'

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017 ... struction/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well indeed.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:10 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... tion-plans

Maria Miller: Brexit hindering compulsory sex education plans
Chair of women and equalities committee launches campaign amid concern over harassment and violence in schools

Actually Maria, maybe you should have a look at the conduct of some of your more right wing colleagues who, last week, managed to reduce the time available to debate about this by filibustering on a non-contested bill about the sexual habits of merchant seamen.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2 ... ntShipping(HomosexualConduct" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)Bill

No surprise that Phillip Davies is right in there.

And then...

Caroline Lucas

There is absolutely no way I am giving way to Government Members, who have spent so many hours filibustering a perfectly serious Bill. [Interruption.] There is no way I am going to give way.

To expand on the latter example, I should say that the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners tells us that statutory status is needed because police and crime commissioners across the country—[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)

Order. The hon. Lady must be heard.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:18 pm

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2017/01/ ... ssessment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Council plans to charge self-funding adults for care assessment
Northamptonshire Council is considering £50 assessment fee for adults who need to pay for their care

In home to be clear,scandalous.

including "emergencies"-FFS.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:28 pm

Worth a read on a possible free trade agreement between US and UK.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:40 pm

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 59m
More
Westminster VI:
CON: 42% (-)
LAB: 26% (-2)
UKIP: 13% (+1)
LDEM: 10% (+1)
GRN: 5% (+1)
(via ICM / 20-22 Jan)

Unpopular now, and not playing the game.

To quote my friend the Consultant, the NHS is the worst it's been since 1997.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:41 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Worth a read on a possible free trade agreement between US and UK.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted that last night.
*Assistant Pedant-in-Chief generally

:lol!:

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:47 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 59m
More
Westminster VI:
CON: 42% (-)
LAB: 26% (-2)
UKIP: 13% (+1)
LDEM: 10% (+1)
GRN: 5% (+1)
(via ICM / 20-22 Jan)
Unpopular now, and not playing the game.

To quote my friend the Consultant, the NHS is the worst it's been since 1997.

Hence the "look! a squirrel!" tactics by our PM last week. They seem to have worked in the short term, as might have been predicted.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:54 pm

Just popping in to say hi. Had a bad cold of late but on the mend, (helped by winning a 5-goal thriller against Reading on Saturday). Our striker Darren Bent actually scored with his willy and couldn't celebrate because he was in so much pain. That's a first for me, and him I expect.

Some really great posts over the weekend. I particularly enjoyed howsillyofme's contribution which said far more eloquently than I've been able to what my view is. Think long not short term. The battle's lost. Those of you who seem to think that a constant stream of negativity will change that are wrong in my view. The war can still be won.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:54 pm

Thankfully the good citizens of Derbyshire booted out the Tories in 2013,after they introduced charging(breaking pledge)removed support from thousands,but far importantly tried to charge us for maintenance of essential equipment breaking a previous agreement conveniently forgotten about.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:56 pm

I'm hoping Jones can stay laser focused later. Avoid the predictable chaff of Corbyn is a threat to the security of the UK, IRA, Hamas, yada yada.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 12:56 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Been pondering on ifs, buts and maybes.

Alan Johnson, Labour leader.

NOOOOOOOO !!! Good god man, no !

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 1:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 2m2 minutes ago

Jamie Reed appointed to the Manor of Northstead, Tristram Hunt gets the Chiltern Hundreds. You'd want Northstead, really.
That's them gone officially then...
Clears the way for Feb 23 polls in both.

I note that the Tories are yet to select a candidate in Copeland - all the other "main" parties have done so.

Slightly odd if they are as confident of winning it as they claim?

tbf, Labour don't yet have a candidate for Stoke Central either. Personally, I think Labour will retain Copeland - Gillian seems a very capable, likeable candidate. Stoke however I'm not nearly so certain of.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 1:03 pm

Trump's protectionism isn't going down well. Dollar down, even against the Pound.

So May thinks she'll do some of that too. Not likely to go down well with the WTO- not that we're even members of it yet.