Wednesday 25th January 2017

[citizenJA]

@Ephemerid

[HindleA]

Cja-doing my tangental thing.Very much a myth,agreed.

[AngryAsWell]

I'm seeing quite a bit of bullying going on here and I don't like it.
There is no need for it.
Yes, anyone can post here. But why come in with a superior, combative attitude ? Not necessary.
This forum was being criticised for being "obsessed" with brexit, which I proved the other night was a false accusation by listing some of the topics we had covered over the weekend. Then along comes HowSilly AGAIN with nothing but Brexit conversations.
Yahyah has been called a bitch on your forum, for the life of me I can't see why. Now along come more people pilling in on her.
Can the bullying stop please. It's nasty and gang like.

Oh and by the way as the only person who has mentioned Osborne recently I would like to say - No I do not secretly admire him or Cameron.

[howsillyofme1]

Probably.

It is all about internal Labour politics I expect.

Just a stick fashioned by Evil Bitterites to attack the leader.

I see it now.

I am sure in some cases it is

Until someone explains how opposing A50 will help (and how it will be done) then I am suspicious

I accept some people will use it to express their anger at the referendum result....I am sympathetic to that logic

The party position though is, in my view, correct....vote for A50 and try to amend bill and focus on the negotiations

For those who want Labour as a party to vote against invocation I would like to understand what is the reasoning?

As has been explained to you several times, it is about the single market and the difference between a hard and soft Brexit.

By promising that Labour will vote to support the Tories triggering art 50 come what may (indeed Corbyn said it should be triggered straight away the morning after the referendum) Labour has abandoned any attempt to apply any pressure at all. They're supporting the Tories.

The brighter members of the PLP won't be standing again in 2020. They're wasting their time. I doubt they're any longer all that interested in Corbyn's 'leadership'.

No it hasn't been 'explained several times' and how exactly would Labour voting against A50 put pressure on the Tories?......they would still win and personally I think all the fighting over a lost vote will reduce the chance of amendments.

The point of the argument is that you and others, with certainty, declare that voting against A50 is the only option as it will bring some undefined benefits - your example here is 'pressure' - whatever that means....

My position is that to vote for or against materially makes little difference to the outcome as to whether we Brexit or not. My own personal opinion is that it is better to vote for as it reduces the ability of a hostile press to scream about 'going against the will of the people' and also it makes more sense to me that Labour votes for A50 to start the process and then look to challenge like hell afterwards.

The only thing that could make a material difference is if voting against A50 would lead to it stopping Brexit in its tracks.....that will not happen because of Parliamentary arithmetic, and actually it shouldn't be done on ethical grounds either....whether you like it or not there was a simple, one-question referendum that gave a clear (although not unanimous) decision. There would be a GE and Labour would be wiped out in my view.....

Blame Cameron for setting such appalling terms for the referendum and also all other parties, not including SNP, for amending it to be more palatable.....you can partially blame Corbyn for that one, but he is not alone

[yahyah]

Probably just inflamed a whole lot more of a hate campaign. Oh dear.

[HindleA]

I secretly admired Metal Mickey.

[citizenJA]

It's been a hard time. The last seven years policies and legislation have caused anxiety and suffering that didn't have to happen. No life is free from changes causing pain. What government has done or hasn't done were choices made. It's hard.

[AngryAsWell]

Baked goods are baked.

Baked means baked!

I started with that one.
I thought I'd try something a little different.

Mornington Crescent

[yahyah]

Even if we are 'obsessed with Brexit' - so what ?
It is one of the most important things to have happened since the last most important thing that happened.

It is serious, it could be a massive cock up, it could be disastrous for the economy, wages, living standards, for public services. Just because it is inconvenient for Labour isn't a reason to pretend it isn't a problem. What did Lexit supporters think was going to happen with a Tory government in power if Brexit won ?

[citizenJA]

I was thinking of the optimism here prior the 2015 GE.
That defeat hasn't stopped hurting, the government returned hurt many.
It didn't have to be this way.
I'll hold on.

[yahyah]

Thanks for the messages.

I'll think of you tomorrow when I'm scoffing a lovely lunch...am looking forward to the pudding already.
Will bring some back with me.

[yahyah]

I was thinking of the optimism here prior the 2015 GE.
That defeat hasn't stopped hurting, the government returned hurt many.
It didn't have to be this way.
I'll hold on.

It's easier to blame each other than look at the real problem.

[PorFavor]

Thanks for the messages.

I'll think of you tomorrow when I'm scoffing a lovely lunch...am looking forward to the pudding already.
Will bring some back with me.

Bloody Champagne Socialist.

[howsillyofme1]

AAW

It seems to me that you don't like people challenging the status quo

Take this from last weekend - so much for this place being a place of sweetness and light until the horrible HowSilly arrived!

citizenJA wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
As onebuttonmonkey says, we are living in very strange times.

Thanks for the above post onebuttonmonkey, you put succinctly the thoughts that have been taking me days to try to formulate into words.
Agree with every word.


Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had a few exasperated conversations with people yesterday on the whole "Labour support A50" story. The general consensus was: oh for f**k's sake. And debating whether he would or wouldn't be successful if he tried, or if the story is true or not really does miss the point of exactly where we are and what hasn't been done.

So I came home, cancelled my Labour membership DD, wrote an angry letter to the party (that will make precisely no difference whatsoever, but that I posted on the Guardian today because I'm absolutely furious, and I meant it and why not), and now I rather want to join a party whose strategy on Brexit exactly matches that of the commenter you linked to.
(cJA bold)


Good luck, sweetheart.
Political parties aren't selected off a shelf like sweets.
Abandoning the Labour party because of a crap leader gives country, people to Tories and the UK will lose all that's best about the EU anyway.


With all due respect, sweetheart, I think my comment here makes it clear it's not just the leader that's the problem. Equally, if you're interested in why I've left - rather than jumping straight to trying to make me out to be the problem with an opposition party that is neglecting to oppose anything - then I'm more than happy to answer the question you were too busy answering for yourself.

Your argument - if that's not too dignified a term for a sneer so busy tripping over its own tongue to get spouted to notice its own incoherent content - seems to be:

"It doesn't matter if you think Labour aren't a decent opposition. What matters is you stay with them. Because the only way you get an opposition is by supporting a group that's failing to oppose anything. If you don't like it, stay. And if you do like it, stay. Or you're just fickle."

But hey, if you think sticking with a party that is failing to reflect your own principles as well as failing to live up to the ones it sets itself is the best way to further anything other a massive contradiction in terms, I can see we don't belong in the same political organisation. I look forward to the many years of successful hobbling your loyal programme of shooting yourself in the foot is bound to bring about.

I suggest before you rant about me and my presence you go and look back at the posts from the end of last week


I came back last weekend to support Paul as he was being battered from all sides for making the same arguments I am making.....and if you look back at the posts you will see some repeating of fake news, misinterpretation and a not a small amount of aggression

Hugo seems to have been posting more than I ever have, but he is fine because he hates Corbyn too, isn't that the case

I don't mind being criticised but can you please lay off the hypocrisy please

If you want me to go then ban me!

[AngryAsWell]

AAW

It seems to me that you don't like people challenging the status quo

Take this from last weekend - so much for this place being a place of sweetness and light until the horrible HowSilly arrived!

citizenJA wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
As onebuttonmonkey says, we are living in very strange times.

Thanks for the above post onebuttonmonkey, you put succinctly the thoughts that have been taking me days to try to formulate into words.
Agree with every word.


Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had a few exasperated conversations with people yesterday on the whole "Labour support A50" story. The general consensus was: oh for f**k's sake. And debating whether he would or wouldn't be successful if he tried, or if the story is true or not really does miss the point of exactly where we are and what hasn't been done.

So I came home, cancelled my Labour membership DD, wrote an angry letter to the party (that will make precisely no difference whatsoever, but that I posted on the Guardian today because I'm absolutely furious, and I meant it and why not), and now I rather want to join a party whose strategy on Brexit exactly matches that of the commenter you linked to.
(cJA bold)


Good luck, sweetheart.
Political parties aren't selected off a shelf like sweets.
Abandoning the Labour party because of a crap leader gives country, people to Tories and the UK will lose all that's best about the EU anyway.


With all due respect, sweetheart, I think my comment here makes it clear it's not just the leader that's the problem. Equally, if you're interested in why I've left - rather than jumping straight to trying to make me out to be the problem with an opposition party that is neglecting to oppose anything - then I'm more than happy to answer the question you were too busy answering for yourself.

Your argument - if that's not too dignified a term for a sneer so busy tripping over its own tongue to get spouted to notice its own incoherent content - seems to be:

"It doesn't matter if you think Labour aren't a decent opposition. What matters is you stay with them. Because the only way you get an opposition is by supporting a group that's failing to oppose anything. If you don't like it, stay. And if you do like it, stay. Or you're just fickle."

But hey, if you think sticking with a party that is failing to reflect your own principles as well as failing to live up to the ones it sets itself is the best way to further anything other a massive contradiction in terms, I can see we don't belong in the same political organisation. I look forward to the many years of successful hobbling your loyal programme of shooting yourself in the foot is bound to bring about.

I suggest before you rant about me and my presence


I came back last weekend to support Paul as he was being battered from all sides for making the same arguments I am making.....and if you look back at the posts you will see some repeating of fake news, misinterpretation and a not a small amount of aggression

Hugo seems to have been posting more than I ever have, but he is fine because he hates Corbyn too, isn't that the case

I don't mind being criticised but can you please lay off the hypocrisy please

If you want me to go then ban me!

Seems to me you know sweet FA about me so save your worthless judgements for someone who cares. I don't care where you post or what you say, but I don't like bullying and won't stand by whilst it happens.

[AngryAsWell]

Trump Attorney General still wants to pass law to permit anti-LGBT discrimination

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/01/25/tr ... ign=buffer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The world is just going backwards - sigh

[RogerOThornhill]

Is it 2020 yet?

West Wing Reports Verified account
‏@WestWingReport

White House says two big states where it thinks voter fraud may have occurred are CA & NY (which didn't vote for President)

As someone pointed out, if you were going to arrange fake votes to ensure a Clinton win, you wouldn't do it in two soundly Democrat states...

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Sun look very much like they changes the picture of Gina Miller to make her look more black.

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/wp-content/up ... ntimes.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Someone's suggested to me that what happens is that The Sun applies less brightness than other papers.

One might wonder why, he added.

[AngryAsWell]

Theresa May refuses to rule out private US firms taking over NHS services
Prime Minister faces repeated questions over the potential threats to public services and food standards, ahead of her talks with President Trump later this week

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 45536.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

AAW

It seems to me that you don't like people challenging the status quo

Take this from last weekend - so much for this place being a place of sweetness and light until the horrible HowSilly arrived!

I suggest before you rant about me and my presence


I came back last weekend to support Paul as he was being battered from all sides for making the same arguments I am making.....and if you look back at the posts you will see some repeating of fake news, misinterpretation and a not a small amount of aggression

Hugo seems to have been posting more than I ever have, but he is fine because he hates Corbyn too, isn't that the case

I don't mind being criticised but can you please lay off the hypocrisy please

If you want me to go then ban me!

Seems to me you know sweet FA about me so save your worthless judgements for someone who cares. I don't care where you post or what you say, but I don't like bullying and won't stand by whilst it happens.

Why would I know, or care to know, anything about you?

Nor do I which is why I went in to help Paul

Your view of bullying is a bit different to mine, just seems you don't like you pals actually being asked to justify their opinions

Some people here are very interesting, and post some very interesting and intelligent things, some aren't though.....

I will continue to post here when, and if, I want.....

[ephemerid]

and thank you for posting Ephie.

One of the things that has made me 'waspish' is what many of us here felt was the elephant in the room - the person/s coming to pick at people on FTN - and at least it has been made explicit now.

The hypocrisy of me being scapegoated as a 'fucking bitch' by some people who are themselves only too happy to belittle, swear, misrepresent others and generally be bitchy [male & female bitches} makes me laugh -fortunately - rather than feel angry.

Thank you for your reply.

I do not agree that anyone has come here to "pick at people", any more than I agree that there is a rota/night-shift/back-up etc. and I don't understand what you mean about the "elephant in the room" nor do I know how many of you are concerned about it. If it is a serious problem, perhaps you could ask the administrators to bar the individuals causing you the most concern - but as posts from people who are gratuitously rude are allowed to stand, I doubt there is a good reason to do so now.

If someone calls you names, perhaps they have a reason for that. I do not think you have been "scapegoated". Some people, me included, have been upset by comments made; some of them were some time ago, but others have picked up on some since then.

At WNTT, we had been planning not to talk about what goes on here; most of us felt we were being a bit silly. But yesterday and today, you have found it necessary to snipe at people for no good reason that I can discern. It seems to me that it's you who is keeping this going by having your little dig every day. It would be lovely if you'd stop.

I won't be back for a while, I think. I just wanted to try to explain why some of us felt the need to chat elsewhere and why we are sometimes less than complimentary about some people here. Don't forget, that this is not "them vs. us" because some members of both fora post in both fora - and long may that continue.

I hope you enjoy your lunch.

[AngryAsWell]

I wasn't going to do this but seeing as the accusations of bullying have continued.

I pop over to make a specific point, yesterday and everyone is generally very welcoming. I then get subjected to an unprovoked attack today and accused of all sorts (by the person who drove me off the forum in the first place). Howsilly continues attempting to argue about Brexit, Ephe makes a single post alluding to the relationship between the two sites… then AAW appears to accuse us of bullying, piling on, 'superior attitude' while yahyah continues baiting and sniping, and everyone continues to act as though that kind of behaviour is absolutely fine. I had hopes of a rapprochement, but there are clearly people who don't want that to happen. Oh well.

What do you call it when a few people get together and attack one? Is that fine?
Yahyah replied to a post directed at her. How is that baiting and sniping?

[AngryAsWell]

French presidential hopeful François Fillon faces inquiry over payments to wife from MP funds
It is common practice for French parliamentarians to employ wives and children in their office

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 46281.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

I wasn't going to do this but seeing as the accusations of bullying have continued.

I pop over to make a specific point, yesterday and everyone is generally very welcoming. I then get subjected to an unprovoked attack today and accused of all sorts (by the person who drove me off the forum in the first place). Howsilly continues attempting to argue about Brexit, Ephe makes a single post alluding to the relationship between the two sites… then AAW appears to accuse us of bullying, piling on, 'superior attitude' while yahyah continues baiting and sniping, and everyone continues to act as though that kind of behaviour is absolutely fine. I had hopes of a rapprochement, but there are clearly people who don't want that to happen. Oh well.

What do you call it when a few people get together and attack one? Is that fine?
Yahyah replied to a post directed at her. How is that baiting and sniping?

Let us have a bit of evidence please

who is the one that has been attacked?
what post did yahyah reply which justified her attack on Robert?

I don't like yahyah.....I admit it...I try not to respond to her posts and tend to ignore what she says. She should do the same with me.....I am happy to go with that

I do not see that I have attacked anyone else particularly...asked them to justify their strident posts on certain subjects

I admit I can argue quite abruptly and that is just the style I write.....don't take it too much to heart...I have always done it and it wasn't a problem here in the past. I don't agree with people like Tubby and Willow on this particular subject but that doesn't mean they aren't worthy of respect

[AngryAsWell]

Brexit exodus: EU academics 'already pulling out' of UK universities, MPs warned
Universities failing to attract international academics as a result of Brexit, MPs warned, with many EU workers reportedly looking elsewhere for long-term employment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 45741.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AngryAsWell]

LABOUR LEAVE TRY AND BOOST UKIP’S CHANCES IN STOKE WITH A ‘VOODOO POLL’

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/01/ ... odoo-poll/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

We have not reached the tipping point on the EU

One day public opinion will turn but I would guess it will be in around 6 months to a year

Needs inflation to really kick in and hurt people in their pockets...at the moment the edges are starting to fray but nothing has ripped away yet

The one biggie that would focus everybodies minds is a house price dip.....

Unfortunately, the bad news is coming from the Lead indicators which most people are not looking at, the Lag ones are still holding up....GDP Growth okayish, consumer spending still okayish......

[Tubby Isaacs]

Brexit exodus: EU academics 'already pulling out' of UK universities, MPs warned
Universities failing to attract international academics as a result of Brexit, MPs warned, with many EU workers reportedly looking elsewhere for long-term employment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 45741.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the trouble with nationalism. Lots of very smart people hate it, and will clear off if they can. See also Putin, Vladimir.

[Tubby Isaacs]

LABOUR LEAVE TRY AND BOOST UKIP’S CHANCES IN STOKE WITH A ‘VOODOO POLL’

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/01/ ... odoo-poll/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are a mixture of dumb and disreputable.

Here's one of their Lexit Brains Trust, from last year.

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-c ... Ij511WLTIU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LABOUR members against the EU took issue with TUC claims yesterday that workers’ rights could be thrown on the scrapheap if Britain votes to leave.

Labour MP Kelvin Hopkins told the Star that “profit comes before workers’ rights and pay when the crunch comes” within the common market.
“Workers’ rights are actually under attack in the EU, which is promoting zero-hours contracts under EU flexible market rules,” he said.
“Countries in receipt of bail-outs have been required to put the brakes on collective bargaining rights and free movement is simply a device to bring down wages and drive up profits.
“Jeremy Corbyn has promised that the next Labour government will restore and protect trade union and workers’ rights and that is where the trade union movement should be putting its trust.”

So apart from needing Jeremy Corbyn to win a general election, those working rights are absolutely sure to be maintained?

That looked like rubbish even before May's speech.

[howsillyofme1]

LABOUR LEAVE TRY AND BOOST UKIP’S CHANCES IN STOKE WITH A ‘VOODOO POLL’

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/01/ ... odoo-poll/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are a mixture of dumb and disreputable.

Here's one of their Lexit Brains Trust, from last year.

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-c ... Ij511WLTIU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LABOUR members against the EU took issue with TUC claims yesterday that workers’ rights could be thrown on the scrapheap if Britain votes to leave.

Labour MP Kelvin Hopkins told the Star that “profit comes before workers’ rights and pay when the crunch comes” within the common market.
“Workers’ rights are actually under attack in the EU, which is promoting zero-hours contracts under EU flexible market rules,” he said.
“Countries in receipt of bail-outs have been required to put the brakes on collective bargaining rights and free movement is simply a device to bring down wages and drive up profits.
“Jeremy Corbyn has promised that the next Labour government will restore and protect trade union and workers’ rights and that is where the trade union movement should be putting its trust.”

So apart from needing Jeremy Corbyn to win a general election, those working rights are absolutely sure to be maintained?

That looked like rubbish even before May's speech.

Do you really believe May is going to do something for worker's rights Tubby?

That speech was the biggest pile of crap masquerading as policy that I have read for a while, and the political writers let her get away with it....the Europeans were not so impressed as the British press (and Hugo) would have you believe....they are looking at us, asw elook at an errant child....trying to empathise but really just getting a bit annoyed

I will be interested to see what makes it from the speech into the White Paper

[PaulfromYorkshire]

This was actually quite funny in a not funny sort of way

[AngryAsWell]

This was actually quite funny in a not funny sort of way

I was just about to post that!

[Tubby Isaacs]

Howsilly,

I was meaning the opposite. She'll tear them to bits. I'm having a pop at Labour Leave for saying the rights were safe even with Brexit.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

One thing I'm quite certain about is that nobody, but nobody knows what effect voting against Article 50 will have.

We've rehearsed the arguments for both sides here, passionately and with true feeling.

Why can't we just acknowledge that nobody knows what the answer is? And respect the points of view of others?

[howsillyofme1]

Howsilly,

I was meaning the opposite. She'll tear them to bits. I'm having a pop at Labour Leave for saying the rights were safe even with Brexit.

Oh sorry....silly me

Labour Leave are ridiculous........I am not quite sure what the think is going on....Hoey just seems to like to be controversial

[AngryAsWell]

Larry the Cat ‏@Number10cat 6h6 hours ago
More
Too busy to tweet today - Theresa's just asked me to write a white paper at short notice...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth read of Larry's time line, some are quite funny

[howsillyofme1]

One thing I'm quite certain about is that nobody, but nobody knows what effect voting against Article 50 will have.

We've rehearse the arguments for both sides here, passionately and with true feeling.

Why can't we just acknowledge that nobody knows what the answer is? And respect the points of view of others?

I agree Paul....my argument was just that, there was no need for there to be such a fuss made about which way Labour voted....my personal preference is the vote for it

If you look back to last week, and what caused my intervention, was that there was a clear message that if Labour did not vote against then it was a disaster of massive proportions

I am absolutely not apologising for having pursued the point but am happy to let it rest now (unless someone wants to start it again)....if you look at the substance of our views on Brexit I think there is not that much to separate us, it is the tactics that differ)

[HindleA]

Vinegar application.

[AngryAsWell]

The battery window washer I ordered at 2.30 this afternoon has just arrived!

Good service, but another example of the way people have to strive to earn a living these days

[citizenJA]

Vinegar application.

With brown paper?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Labour Leave aren't looking very good on Twitter.

Trying to make out they're the ones who've been hard done by because one person said the poll was of Labour Leave supporters.

[SpinningHugo]

I do love these 'voting doesn't matter' posts as the result will be determined the same anyway.

Hands up who subscribes to that in their daily lives.

It isn't even true, There was, and still is, a Commons majority to be had for Single Market Membership (and not utterly meaningless 'access').

Hi Ephie! Hi RS! Lovely to have the old gang pop over.

I should go over to the other site.

[RogerOThornhill]

Hi Ephie! Hi RS! Lovely to have the old gang pop over.

I should go over to the other site.

Yes, I'm sure that they'll welcome with open arms someone who seems to regard this place as just somewhere he can pop in and snipe at Corbyn every day...

[howsillyofme1]

Who said voting doesn't matter?

I have clearly stated that it probably won't make much difference but I would vote For A50 if it gave me more chance to prevent Brexit (and that is my view right or wrong)

Voting in parliament is often tactical and people vote for/against or abstain based on that.....

You want Labour to vote the way that will do them maximum damage as you are not really a supporter, so a good position for the party to take is to do the opposite that you suggest

[HindleA]

Vinegar application.

With brown paper?

No ,well known remover of particular corrosive substance.

[RogerOThornhill]

Aw, this is sad news - used to watch the MTM Show and her production company had some of the best TV shows of the 70s and 80s - Rholda, Lou Grant, St Elsewhere, Hill Street Blues...

US actress Mary Tyler Moore dies aged 80

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38747061

[citizenJA]

Aw, this is sad news - used to watch the MTM Show and her production company had some of the best TV shows of the 70s and 80s - Rholda, Lou Grant, St Elsewhere, Hill Street Blues...

US actress Mary Tyler Moore dies aged 80

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38747061

Sorry to read that.

[StephenDolan]

Evening all. Cold outside when walking the pooch, I see its heating up in here. Toasty.

Good to see infrequent names posting. The more the merrier. Let's not forget who the real enemy is. The Romans.

[SpinningHugo]

Who said voting doesn't matter?

I have clearly stated that it probably won't make much difference but I would vote For A50 if it gave me more chance to prevent Brexit (and that is my view right or wrong)

Voting in parliament is often tactical and people vote for/against or abstain based on that.....

You want Labour to vote the way that will do them maximum damage as you are not really a supporter, so a good position for the party to take is to do the opposite that you suggest

I completely accept that I don't care about my former party any longer. I think it is a barrier to removing the Tories and is led by someone who, on his own, makes it immoral to cast a vote for them.

No, what I care about is the form of Brexit. It is appalling that Labour has abandoned all attempts to stop a Hard Brexit.

I understand why Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne favour it. It is the creative destruction that their ilk so often favour. McDonnell isn't stupid, and he is right that the worse things are the better the prospects for his brand of politics.

But it is depressing that so many of the PLP seem to be meekly keeping their heads down in the hope of appeasing the immigrant hating members of their constituencies. Immoral cowards, IMO.

[HindleA]

"This is Carlton your doorman"