Friday 27th January 2017

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 7:36 am

Good Morning and where's Refitman?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 7:41 am

I didn't get to respond to this from Willow from last night

I think you're a bit hung up on the idea of people "blaming" Corbyn, when it's his positions like wanting to leave the single market that some people are unhappy about, not that he's somehow responsible for what has happened up to now.

I don't quite know what to say to this.

Me, "hung up"?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 7:43 am

Anyway, seeing as our great leader has pronounced that "opposites attract", presumably we can expect paeons of praise for Corbyn from Hugo today, while Temulkar will bob by to discuss the virtues of Tony Blair

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 8:04 am

Today is Holocaust Memorial Day, a day for everyone to remember the millions of people who were killed, or whose lives have been changed, by the Holocaust.

On this day we also remember the millions of people who were killed or have been affected by Nazi persecution and terrible crimes committed during conflicts in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur.
Sadly, discrimination persists to this day and we must fight it wherever it exists.

A day to remember how important it is not to spread messages of hate, or to exclude people because things like the colour of their skin or what religious beliefs they have.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 8:08 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Anyway, seeing as our great leader has pronounced that "opposites attract", presumably we can expect paeons of praise for Corbyn from Hugo today, while Temulkar will bob by to discuss the virtues of Tony Blair

Sure

Labour has structural problems over Europe that no leader could satisfy. Most people, rightly IMO, care more about Leave/Remain than party loyalty. You have to be a bit odd, put politely, to put party loyalty above that.

So Labour either makes a firm choice one way or the other, as say the Tories or Lib Dems have done, or represents nobody. Labour is now backing a Hard Brexit (the stuff about amendments is irrelevant given the undertaking to vote for the original Bill without them
The government doesn't need to compromise.

Any leader would have faced an impossible choice. That wasn't Corbyn's fault. Indeed on freedom of movement, he was initially one of the good guys.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 8:15 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I didn't get to respond to this from Willow from last night
I think you're a bit hung up on the idea of people "blaming" Corbyn, when it's his positions like wanting to leave the single market that some people are unhappy about, not that he's somehow responsible for what has happened up to now.
I don't quite know what to say to this.

Me, "hung up"?

Sorry, the point that others couldn't have achieved any better material outcomes than Corbyn comes up a lot so I kind of snapped, as that's not the problem I have with him, but I accept you may have only made the point the once. Whoops.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:02 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-watchdog" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The committee pointed out that advice from officials to wealthy taxpayers was not recorded. “While calls from most taxpayers to HMRC call centres are recorded routinely, meetings and phone calls with high net-worth individuals are not recorded,” the report says.

How is this even remotely acceptable?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:07 am

Education, education, education.

Treasury takes back £384m school funding - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38762243" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:16 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... name#img-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

White House drops its 'h' in misspelling of Theresa May's name

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:20 am

Rayner response

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1564371 ... ories-have" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:29 am

Under British law and policy, the UK military and intelligence agencies cannot join operations where someone is being tortured or officers believe there is a risk that it may happen.

From the beeb. How can GCHQ etc assist the US under Trump?

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:32 am

Morning.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Her speech, containing the above excerpt, has been received well by, among others: Boris Johnson, Lord Ashcroft, Tim Montgomerie, JHB, Ruth Davidson and even Philip Collins and Ian Dunt. I honestly don't get it. It's among the most nauseating things I've read recently, even in the context of current events.

Meanwhile...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:37 am

NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Her speech, containing the above excerpt, has been received well by, among others: Boris Johnson, Lord Ashcroft, Tim Montgomerie, JHB, Ruth Davidson and even Philip Collins and Ian Dunt. I honestly don't get it. It's among the most nauseating things I've read recently, even in the context of current events.

Meanwhile...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh. I forgot someone, didn't I?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:38 am

NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Her speech, containing the above excerpt, has been received well by, among others: Boris Johnson, Lord Ashcroft, Tim Montgomerie, JHB, Ruth Davidson and even Philip Collins and Ian Dunt. I honestly don't get it. It's among the most nauseating things I've read recently, even in the context of current events.

Meanwhile...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Make America great again, president Trump!

Eagerly hitching on to Trump's wagon is dangerous, you never know where you'll end up.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 9:38 am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ool-police" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Council admits racially discriminating against two boys with toy gun

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 10:17 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I didn't get to respond to this from Willow from last night
I think you're a bit hung up on the idea of people "blaming" Corbyn, when it's his positions like wanting to leave the single market that some people are unhappy about, not that he's somehow responsible for what has happened up to now.
I don't quite know what to say to this.

Me, "hung up"?

In a good kinda way maybe ?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 10:19 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... ht-of.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The UK’s 1976 IMF crisis in the light of modern theory

Mainlymacro

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 10:24 am

StephenDolan wrote:Under British law and policy, the UK military and intelligence agencies cannot join operations where someone is being tortured or officers believe there is a risk that it may happen.

From the beeb. How can GCHQ etc assist the US under Trump?

Ed M was on Newsnight last night, fans might like to catch it on iplayer. He was quite forthright with Kirsty Wark.
You should really watch the tosser from the Telegraph first, for context.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 10:28 am

NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Her speech, containing the above excerpt, has been received well by, among others: Boris Johnson, Lord Ashcroft, Tim Montgomerie, JHB, Ruth Davidson and even Philip Collins and Ian Dunt. I honestly don't get it. It's among the most nauseating things I've read recently, even in the context of current events.

Meanwhile...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I read some acclaim for her speech on twitter, and then later saw a clip of her delivering that bit. How far will these people go to praise a tory PM?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 10:51 am

For me its a question of why are some "liberal" journalists still so entranced by May's warm words? The *actions* of her government should be what count.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 10:56 am

R5 has a phone in on Labour at the moment

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:00 am

I'm sure that will be illuminating and informative

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:02 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I'm sure that will be illuminating and informative

It's over now, was not good hearing

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:03 am

AngryAsWell wrote:R5 has a phone in on Labour at the moment

Well, that is the key news issue of the day.... School funding, the NHS, etc etc. Boring. How are you going to get the juices flowing, it's all about Labour.

There's a reasonable piece by Siddiq btw.

I’ve quit the shadow cabinet over article 50 to follow the true will of my people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... our-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:16 am

A good read from " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regarding the upcoming by-elections.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:17 am

AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I'm sure that will be illuminating and informative
It's over now, was not good hearing

They managed to make phone ins Labour hate-fests even under Miliband when the party was ahead in the polls.

Just don't listen to them.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:21 am

'“I saw your comment, it’s really inspiring, I want to ask, do you have any public opinion guidance management, or online commenting experience?”'

Might be worth trying this out.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatl ... le/514589/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:44 am

http://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.j14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Research
Inter-rater agreement in evaluation of disability: systematic review of reproducibility studies

"Despite their common use and far reaching consequences for workers claiming disabling injury or illness, research on the reliability of medical evaluations of disability for work is limited and indicates high variation in judgments among assessing professionals. Standardising the evaluation process could improve reliability. Development and testing of instruments and structured approaches to improve reliability in evaluation of disability are urgently needed."

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:48 am

StephenDolan wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:R5 has a phone in on Labour at the moment
Well, that is the key news issue of the day.... School funding, the NHS, etc etc. Boring. How are you going to get the juices flowing, it's all about Labour.

There's a reasonable piece by Siddiq btw.

I’ve quit the shadow cabinet over article 50 to follow the true will of my people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... our-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the will of the people is to be reflected accurately, then the government should vote for triggering article 50 and the opposition should vote against, thus leave wins by a slim majority that mirrors the tiny edge to "leave" in the referendum.

I'm being flippant, of course, but if ignoring the wishes of half the country got us into this mess, how does ignoring the other half get us out of it? Diane Abbott is going around talking as if voting against would be like remain MPs (elites, as she put it) voting against the will of an entire under the thumb ignored nation (Labour voters clearly, obviously no wealthy Tories voted leave). 48% is a lot of "elites" though. Indeed it invalidates the term "elite" entirely. It's not as if voting against will change the outcome, which is a large part of why I think they should. 170 MPs voted against remaining in a reformed EC in 1975 despite a referendum that approved staying in by 67% to 33%. And the Eurosceptics have continued to fight the "will of the people" for the last 40 years. The sky hasn't exactly fallen in and our democracy has remained intact. Corbyn doesn't have a choice that is good for Labour, but I think representing the 48% in parliament would be better for our representative democracy. I feel we need to stand up to the tyranny of the simple majority over the minority, and underline the fact that we are leaving the EU because a majority government campaigned for it and enabled it, not simply because of a snap shot, moment in time opinion poll. This wasn't the will of the people, it was the will of some very determined politicians who courted public opinion to achieve their aims, as is the way of politicians the world over. Fetishizing a one off referendum as some kind of superior, purer kind of democracy than the representative democracy that has served us well enough over the years feels dangerous to me.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:48 am

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1564394 ... a-mays-nhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour Press
“Urgent action required” as Theresa May’s NHS Crisis continues - Jonathan Ashworth

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 11:54 am

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... ign=buffer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Evidence-based policy and policy as ‘translation’: designing a model for policymaking

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/contenton ... 2/art00002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:03 pm

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/pi ... assessors/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PIP INVESTIGATION: Politicians call for action over ‘widespread dishonesty by assessors’

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:06 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... trumocracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can Raccoons of the Resistance save Science from the Tantrumocracy

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:06 pm

Christ. Trump wasn't winging it when he talked rubbish about VAT. It was from his economic white paper.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/0 ... bles/?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:07 pm

My word

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:16 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:R5 has a phone in on Labour at the moment
Well, that is the key news issue of the day.... School funding, the NHS, etc etc. Boring. How are you going to get the juices flowing, it's all about Labour.

There's a reasonable piece by Siddiq btw.

I’ve quit the shadow cabinet over article 50 to follow the true will of my people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... our-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well if every MP votes according to the will of "their" people (ie constituents) A50 will pass easily anyway.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:17 pm

http://www.scvo.org.uk/blog/shared-acco ... g-tenants/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shared accommodation rate is an assault on vulnerable young tenants

"For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of a horse, the battle was lost;
For the failure of battle, the kingdom was lost –
All for the want of a horseshoe nail."

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:27 pm

@willow

Good post. Your point about people like Abbott fetishing a referendum result, that's what worries. It leaves a huge opportunity for the right to exploit it. There may be pressure for other votes so we can let 'the people' speak on other issues. How could Labour argue against a government implementing awful policies if the people 'speak' and say they want them in a referendum vote ?

Abbott use of 'elites' grated with me too. She sounded patronising to voters in the Labour vulnerable areas.

Well done Tulip Siddiq.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:37 pm

Council admits racially discriminating against two boys over Prevent toy gun referral
Education authority agrees to pay damages after school calls police over fears two brothers could be at risk of radicalisation

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ?CMP=fb_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:49 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rine-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

C of E bishops refuse to change stance on gay marriage

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:55 pm

Homelessness Reduction Bill clears Commons.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 12:59 pm

yahyah wrote:@willow

Good post. Your point about people like Abbott fetishing a referendum result, that's what worries. It leaves a huge opportunity for the right to exploit it. There may be pressure for other votes so we can let 'the people' speak on other issues. How could Labour argue against a government implementing awful policies if the people 'speak' and say they want them in a referendum vote ?

Abbott use of 'elites' grated with me too. She sounded patronising to voters in the Labour vulnerable areas.

Well done Tulip Siddiq.

Yep.

The next obvious referendum is the ECHR. How can they oppose "the people" on that?

I'll take my chance with mustering a dozen Tory rebels.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 1:20 pm

Yeah, get lost with this "elites" stuff for Remainers.

Next time Abbott mentions poverty in Hackney, the Tories should tell her there can't be much, with its 78-22 vote for Remain. Must be crawling with elites, they can fix the poverty with their spare change.

Come to think of it, 46.3% voted to Remain in Rhondda Cwm Taf. I've not yet noticed this colony of elitists when I've been there. Maybe they all live near Owen Smith.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 1:30 pm

And I know we're supposed think what a difficult decision it is for the leadership. Maybe it is. Then you think, hmmm, "elites", "populist relaunch".

How difficult?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 1:43 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Yeah, get lost with this "elites" stuff for Remainers.

Next time Abbott mentions poverty in Hackney, the Tories should tell her there can't be much, with its 78-22 vote for Remain. Must be crawling with elites, they can fix the poverty with their spare change.

Come to think of it, 46.3% voted to Remain in Rhondda Cwm Taf. I've not yet noticed this colony of elitists when I've been there. Maybe they all live near Owen Smith.

It's Rhondda Cynon Taff not cwm taf - not sure how well you can claim to know a place if you can't get the name right.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 1:46 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I'll take my chance with mustering a dozen Tory rebels.

Good luck with that.

And even if you get them, leaving aside the DUP some LibDem and Labour MPs would defy any whip to vote A50 down.

Its a complete non starter in short, and those of us who want to prevent a hard Brexit should start to consider other tactics.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 1:46 pm

And no I'm not here to praise Tony Blair.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 1:53 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... thin-weeks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Secret files on battle of Orgreave could be published within weeks

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 1:58 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I'll take my chance with mustering a dozen Tory rebels.
Good luck with that.

And even if you get them, leaving aside the DUP some LibDem and Labour MPs would defy any whip to vote A50 down.

Its a complete non starter in short, and those of us who want to prevent a hard Brexit should start to consider other tactics.

Considering other tactics is beyond most of them. They have learned nothing from brexiit nothing from trump, nothing from corbyn being re-elected. If, god forbid, Le Pen gets elected in France, I hope to they start learning then.As for Theresa May, what is it about tory prie ministeers that they want to appease fascists. She could end up goibg down as chamberlain - or worse mussolini if she is determined to play Italy's usual role in the upcoming apocolypse.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 27 Jan, 2017 2:03 pm

Temulkar wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I'll take my chance with mustering a dozen Tory rebels.
Good luck with that.

And even if you get them, leaving aside the DUP some LibDem and Labour MPs would defy any whip to vote A50 down.

Its a complete non starter in short, and those of us who want to prevent a hard Brexit should start to consider other tactics.
Considering other tactics is beyond most of them. They have learned nothing from brexiit nothing from trump, nothing from corbyn being re-elected. If, god forbid, Le Pen gets elected in France, I hope to they start learning then.As for Theresa May, what is it about tory prie ministeers that they want to appease fascists. She could end up goibg down as chamberlain - or worse mussolini if she is determined to play Italy's usual role in the upcoming apocolypse.

Beyond most voters too.

Brexit is all about emotion, not common sense. Tactics that involve walking through the aye lobby with Tories might be effective at achieving small concessions, but are ineffective at convincing voters you are an alternative to the government.