Thursday 9th February 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:25 am

Morning.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... hool-plans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grammar schools
Government appears to row back on grammar school plans

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:27 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38907681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Orangutan squeaks reveal language evolution, says study

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:29 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/3 ... ot-working" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Revenge eviction law 'not working'

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:33 am

Re-linking.Charity Commission Investigation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ase-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... commission" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:42 am

Housing white paper raises more questions than answers

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... an-answers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:44 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -ae-target" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Patients at hospital 'admitted to virtual ward to avoid missing A&E target'
Patients at Alexandra hospital were kept in A&E but recorded as admitted to non-existent Emergency Department Unit, whistleblower has claimed

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:50 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -to-canada" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sarah Palin touted as US ambassador to Canada? You betcha

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:51 am

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... cy-remains" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Australian politics
Labor urges Coalition to ditch plan to lift pension age to 70 but Joyce says policy remains

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 3:55 am

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... five-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK foreign aid fraud investigations 'quadruple in last five years'
National Audit Office says rise has occurred as more public money is delivered to ‘fragile’ countries where bribery can be seen as ‘cultural norm’

https://www.nao.org.uk/report/investiga ... ing-fraud/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 4:25 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ics-survey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK rents expected to rise faster than house prices in next five years
Rics survey heaps further misery on Britain’s growing army of renters, who will likely have fewer properties to choose from

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:00 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... udy-claims" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Bright but poor' pupils years behind better-off peers, study claims
Research suggests large gaps in educational achievement between the brightest students from poor and more wealthy backgrounds

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:02 am

Morning all.

Shame if you're not posting anymore PfY although I understand what you're saying. Ignore lists are a godsend.

Kudos to Lovren for doing this.

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/video/latest-videos#28665" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“When I see what’s happening today [with refugees] I just remember my thing, my family and how people don’t want you in their country. I understand people want to protect themselves, but people don’t have homes. It’s not their fault; they’re fighting for their lives just to save their kids. They want a secure place for their kids and their futures. I went through all this and I know what some families are going through. Give them a chance, give them a chance. You can see who the good people are and who are not.”

I'll be shoving this down the throat of any red that shows kipper tendencies. A rarity in Liverpool itself thankfully but there's plenty elsewhere.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:04 am

82% 4hour? How low can the Tories go?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:08 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38907492" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A&E figures for January 'worst ever', leaked data suggests

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:08 am

Took me a minute,to realise.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:28 am

100% business retention pilot areas 17/18-GLA,Greater Manchester,Liverpool City,Cornwall,combined authorities West of England and Midlands.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:31 am

In consultation paper,responses to which they are "analysing",though know they've dropped abolishment of Attendance Allowance proposals.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:35 am

Paul asked 'when did anyone vote for Lexit ?'

'' I am voting for Lexit''
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why ... 93151.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

''LeftLeave Lexit statement''
http://www.leftleave.org/lexit-statemen ... ean-union/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://en-gb.facebook.com/www.lexit.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:38 am

I read it as "on here"/him.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 7:44 am

HindleA wrote:I read it as "on here"/him.

I kinda thought that question by PfY was obviously referring to here. I don't mean to be narky yy.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:07 am

Am devastated to see PfY go - and cannot fathom how posting retrospectively to "prove" that he was "wrong" can help.

I too am weary of the argumentative tone that sometimes pervades. It isn't just SH (who is occasionally interesting, but mostly like an adolescent who's learned a new word), there are others who are regularly argumentative; some with the same people, others suddenly turning on old friends. At least SH is blatant in his/her modus operandum.

Apologise profusely and sincerely if my own dissatisfaction with Labour of late has contributed to your departure Paul, and agree wholeheartedly that we should be fighting the Tories not dividing the Left. And to that end will continue to post.

Still hope to catch you in the Fenton some time anyway.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:10 am

http://www.conservativehome.com/thetory ... onals.html

Earlier this afternoon, in the Article 50 debate, Ed Vaizey dropped a little bit of a clanger. He referred to a letter from the Home Secretary which had been circulated to MPs offering assurances about the rights of EU citizens. Inevitably, Labour and SNP MPs then demanded the letter be lodged in the House of Commons Library for all to see.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:14 am

1975 : stay in common market 67% in favour. 170 MPs voted against staying.

2017: leave the EU 52% in favour. 122 MPs voted against.

The "will of the people" was a very slight majority to leave. I still, even now, don't understand why it's "undemocratic" for parliament to reflect that.

I'm supportive of those Labour MPs who voted against. I think they did the right thing. It was never going to 'block Brexit' but simply reflects the unease of a large part of the population at leaving the EU.

Paul said last night that the forum had become divisive, but I think that's the wrong word. The forum has become divided. It was divided by the referendum vote and subsequent opinions on how Labour should react to it. That division was reflected within the PLP. Paul should take comfort from the fact that he is on the majority side, as most Labour MPs voted for the article 50 bill.

From the moment of the referendum result David Lammy in particular has been expressing very much how I feel on the matter. Although I've agreed with Caroline Lucas, I still feel there are some Labour MPs who represent me better. They are very much in the minority for now, but we'll see. Clive Lewis reacted to Theresa May's hard Brexit speech exactly as I would want Labour to react. I think he was right to try to amend the bill but having failed to do so, having failed to put in any safeguards at all, I think he was right to vote against. If there had been a large vote against this bill, the House of Lords may have had some grounds to attempt to attach those safeguards themselves, but the overwhelming majority for makes that difficult now, I think.

Let's hope, then, that article 50 is revocable.

Let's also hope Keir Starmer got his concession in writing, set in stone.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:20 am

Just read last night's posts.

Big thanks to Frog222 for their posts.

Hope Paul doesn't go, but maybe as he said last night [am paraphrasing from memory so please don't shout at me if it isn't word for word] he is spending time defending Corbyn - who he didn't vote for or support - and Labour's Brexit stance.

I can't think of any regular posters who aren't anti-Tory. That's a given.
We have little control over what they do.
Labour is a party that some of us on FTN are members of [or used to be until recently], or have voted for and want to feel able to vote for.

To pretend that all is light and right with Labour does no one any good. My party right or wrong won't help in the voting booths. Most voters don't read forums where dissent is chased away or dismissed as boring.

I would miss Paul, but if having a break is what he needs then that is what he must do.
One's own peace of mind is important at times of the sort of stress Brexit is causing.

It's been upsetting to feel pitched against him recently because of being one of the 'whiners' as someone charmingly called us, one of those lifelong Labour supporters who feel the party has let us down over the way they've tackled leadership on Brexit.

It was also odd to see OS taking the role of pulling people together last night - reminding us that FTN is a strong forum, it survives, and that we need to take care of one another.

I obviously don't agree with OS's political opinions but those sentiments seemed genuine, so thank you.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:26 am

Don't worry TC, I'll be spending more time gardening now the weather's better and the days longers and trying to ignore what a mess our politicians are making of our futures.

Will get 'argumentative' with the weeds.

<sigh> it does seem as if argumentative is acceptable if certain people do it.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:27 am

To be clear - we don't all have to see the same solutions to the same problems - otherwise I can sit in a room and think to myself how excellent I am.

Paul always helped me reconsider my sometimes knee jerk response to stuff, because he knows things I don't know an thinks differently.

If you are pitching against someone like Paul I think that in itself is something to examine.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:30 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:To be clear - we don't all have to see the same solutions to the same problems - otherwise I can sit in a room and think to myself how excellent I am.

Paul always helped me reconsider my sometimes knee jerk response to stuff, because he knows things I don't know an thinks differently.

If you are pitching against someone like Paul I think that in itself is something to examine.

What I felt was that Paul was getting himself in knots sometimes trying to defend Labour, or using the squirrel 'what about the Tories' to avoid something inconvenient.

I don't need to examine that thanks. I know why it happened.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:32 am

A&E leak figures story in Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... k-suggests" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:42 am

In reply to Paul's question last night ''who voted for Lexit ?''.

https://en-gb.facebook.com/www.lexit.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

#lexit left leave campaign
http://www.leftleave.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

''why I am voting for lexit''
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why ... 93151.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:49 am

"The Real Fight Starts Now"!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rosebuchanan/h ... ieZEnKRqvD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Full roll of honour

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

any names there who were also on this list

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ofcommons3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see any.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:50 am

Oh great.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:58 am

Interesting piece by Wes Streeting.

Love to hear your thoughts.

We can’t stop Brexit now, but we can plan for a better Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 8:59 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:01 am

Good morfternoon.

There's a PaulfromYorkshire-shaped hole. I do hope that, at some point in the not-so-far-off, he comes back.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:06 am

Nicola does Trump
#sad

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:07 am

yahyah wrote:

Sturgeon gave May a blank cheque, she couldn't stop May. Her party do consider themselves the official opposition but they couldn't stop A50 from rolling on. Weak, weak, weak.

Yes, I know. But still. Politics is played across many subjects at once. Sturgeon knows this.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:10 am

HindleA wrote:I read it as "on here"/him.

There is a wider world than FTN.
Do we need an emoticon that means 'this ain't about you personally' ?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:13 am

Let's take a step back. Consider this. The vast majority of Labour MPs voted in the referendum to remain. The vast majority of the people who voted for them to become MPs voted Remain. Corbyn and McDonnell have given the image in the past that they'd want to leave EU. The PLP voted very recently, by a huge margin to get rid of Corbyn. And yet, when it came to the early stages of A50 invocation through the Commons,the vast majority of Labour MPs voted, after the many attempts to amend, voted for A50 to proceed to the Lords.

Why do you think that was/is?

Yahyah, Tubby, pk1 in particular, but not exclusively, what are your thoughts?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:14 am

StephenDolan wrote:
HindleA wrote:I read it as "on here"/him.
I kinda thought that question by PfY was obviously referring to here. I don't mean to be narky yy.

Thank you. I should have been more explicit. But I don't think we even have anyone who still posts here who is a Lexiter. Or who admits it to it

It was so depressing last night.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:16 am

Why particularly PK, Tubs and me ?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:21 am

yahyah wrote:Why particularly PK, Tubs and me ?

Because you are the regular posters that imho give the impression that you feel the Labour MPs have let us down. By us, I mean members (current or ex of the party) and the country as a whole.

I'm not aiming for a gotcha, I'm trying to understand more about what others think.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:21 am

I'm particularly sorry to see PaulfromYorkshire leave as his posts were always thoughtful and contributed a great deal to the forum. Life's too short to spend time on something that makes you unhappy, however, so I wouldn't try to persuade him to stay, but I am a little puzzled about his timing. Surely now the article 50 bill is more or less out of the way, I would have thought the conversation is likely to shift a little. Indeed, if a few returners keep returning, the balance is bound to change. I stick to my theory that this forum doesn't create friction within the left, it reflects it. The friction will still be there within the Labour party and the left in general, whether we are here talking about it or not. So I hope Refitman keeps on making this space available (much appreciated Dan, always) and the links keep flowing, because in between the disagreements about Labour, pretty much all the political news of the day gets linked or commented on one way or another and I find it a handy shortcut to finding out what's going on out there.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:29 am

There's probably a difference between what they will claim publicly is their reason and their actual reasons.

Hard not to see it as being cowed by the fear of putting Labour's heartlands at risk.
Two by-elections in the next few weeks.
Arcane Parliamentary procedures mean playing the game in the House, even if you know you will fail miserably.

Maybe, being generous to them, they may think they really can influence things later down the line.
Or that, if/when it ends disaster they can change tack and call for a referendum on the terms.
And pretend that's what they wanted all along.

What is puzzling is the complete reluctance to acknowledge the Labour conference motion that passed last year.

Tbh, it seems like appeasement to populism. Rather than stand up from the very outset and lay out the case they, as Lucas said, capitulated early.

Yes, it was always going to be a problem for Labour, whoever the leader was.
But one of the reasons I voted for Corbyn in 2015 is because I thought he would voice opposition in exactly this sort of situation. I feel he has done the opposite, and suspect he is at best ambivalent about the Leve result. Arguing for a soft Brexit, when everything else has failed, seems like baying at the moon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:30 am

Morning all.

Sad to see people leaving but this place will continue I;m sure.

HindleA wrote:Morning.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... hool-plans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grammar schools
Government appears to row back on grammar school plans

They seem to have dropped the "social mobility" argument mainly because the evidence doesn't hold up.

Tim Dracup has written extensively on what to do about high attainers in the past and is very knowledgeable. This from earlier in the week.

https://timdracup.wordpress.com/2017/02 ... oint-plan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scroll down to the 10 point plan if the detail gets too much.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 9:54 am

Incidentally, if Labour remainers like me are feeling reasonably content this morning that a good chunk of Labour MPs voted against, I'm wondering how Tory remain voters are feeling with only Ken Clarke standing up for them. Is there really that many votes out there for a Ukippy Tory party? Ultimately the Tories will face their own difficulties in reconciling the opposing views of Eurosceptics and Europhiles. I imagine the realignment of political views post-Brexit will be ongoing.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 10:03 am

Willow904 wrote:Incidentally, if Labour remainers like me are feeling reasonably content this morning that a good chunk of Labour MPs voted against, I'm wondering how Tory remain voters are feeling with only Ken Clarke standing up for them. Is there really that many votes out there for a Ukippy Tory party? Ultimately the Tories will face their own difficulties in reconciling the opposing views of Eurosceptics and Europhiles. I imagine the realignment of political views post-Brexit will be ongoing.

Over a third of Tory voters voted remain according to Ashcroft. Surprised Farron isn't targeting these given the collapse in the lib/Tory marginals in 2015.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 10:03 am

StephenDolan wrote:Let's take a step back. Consider this. The vast majority of Labour MPs voted in the referendum to remain. The vast majority of the people who voted for them to become MPs voted Remain. Corbyn and McDonnell have given the image in the past that they'd want to leave EU. The PLP voted very recently, by a huge margin to get rid of Corbyn. And yet, when it came to the early stages of A50 invocation through the Commons,the vast majority of Labour MPs voted, after the many attempts to amend, voted for A50 to proceed to the Lords.

Why do you think that was/is?

Thewillofthef***ingpeople.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 10:08 am

Willow904 wrote:Incidentally, if Labour remainers like me are feeling reasonably content this morning that a good chunk of Labour MPs voted against, I'm wondering how Tory remain voters are feeling with only Ken Clarke standing up for them. Is there really that many votes out there for a Ukippy Tory party? Ultimately the Tories will face their own difficulties in reconciling the opposing views of Eurosceptics and Europhiles. I imagine the realignment of political views post-Brexit will be ongoing.

Hear hear.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, where were the tory remain MPs? Labour was always on a hiding to nothing if they wouldn't stand up.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 10:13 am

Clarification-pointing out to yahyah what I thought Paul meant.He clearly didn't mean no left wing leave proponents,which of course they were/are in Labour and the Greens.I happen to have voted Remain,my dad,as far as I can gather voted Leave-difficult to tell but at least not as worried/concerned with leaving.Far from the,thick,insular,rascist pensioner Tory what the fuck does he care he'll be dead anyway-another Bennite position;well informed,travelled has a son in Belgium-if he did vote that way-he had a different view on the matter,that's it.I particularly don't get the abuse thrown at people from a Lexit position.I'm mindless remember if a view is genuinely held,however naive,wrong headed-what the fuck do I know-with aims,as far as I can tell similar to mine,but perhaps the "wrong way"- why is disengagement rejoiced.Don't understand.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 09 Feb, 2017 10:15 am

StephenDolan wrote:Interesting piece by Wes Streeting.

Love to hear your thoughts.

We can’t stop Brexit now, but we can plan for a better Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if people think that overturning a vote at the ballot box by a vote in parliament would take our country to a better place, then I am afraid they are kidding themselves.

Sums it up nicely.