Saturday 18th & Sunday 19th February 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 6:30 am

Morning

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -from-lies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

McCain savages Trump administration and inability to 'separate truth from lies'
Republican senator uses Munich speech to reflect on ‘disarray’ in Trump White house, saying president contradicts himself

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 6:56 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-39010667" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even a dead Robert Mugabe could stand in Zimbabwe election

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 6:59 am

Morning all.

What do we think of this?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:12 am

Always the "unexpectedly" and the one possible explanation as to the 'why'.

Retail sales fall unexpectedly in January - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39002325" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:25 am

Alison McGovern placing her tanks firmly on Frank Field's lawn. And good on her for saying this.

'Take a walk down any high street in a Labour town like Birkenhead, and you’ll see the Osborne legacy. Opportunities everywhere, not taken because of a lack of cash in the right places. Insufficient development capital that has blighted the places that needed saving post the crash. Empty shops. Rough sleeping on the rise, as the safety net fails. Untreated mental illness that represents itself as street drinking, and far, far, too many off licenses as people look for an escape at the end of a vodka bottle.

None of these problems have anything to do with the European Union, or immigration, but given the opportunity to vote against those in charge of running down the place where you are from, why would anyone not take it?'

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:34 am

Ah yes Stephen the "unexpected"!!

Morning All.

One of my favourite poems by Neruda translates as 'I'm Explaining a Few Things'

So here I am. I popped by yesterday specifically to read Anatoly's round-up. Perhaps there were no by-elections. Probably I chose a bad day, with the Blair intervention....

It started me thinking of the time when people here were literally begging Anatoly to post that here. And then I reflected on the first days of this Forum. FlyTheNest - a haven from evil nesting. We decided to drop the "from evil nesting" and we added the lovely photo. It's North Haven on Fair Isle. A haven.

Things change and that's fine. But for me, and perhaps just for me, this place is no longer a haven. Sure the Brexit debate has become tedious, and me a tedious part of it, but that's not why I can't stay. I realised that there were political points I was simply scared of posting here because I knew what the reaction would be. Maybe that's fine for this place, but it's not for me.

Maybe I'll be back, if you'll have me, one day. I truly miss friends here. It's not particularly relevant, but I'll finish with the tremendous finale to that poem.

Preguntaréis por qué su poesía
no nos habla del sueño, de las hojas,
de los grandes volcanes de su país natal ?

Venid a ver la sangre por las calles.
venid a ver
la sangre por las calles,
venid a ver la sangre
por las calles!

And you will ask: why doesn’t his poetry
speak of dreams and leaves
and the great volcanoes of his native land?

Come and see the blood in the streets.
Come and see
the blood in the streets.
Come and see the blood
in the streets!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:36 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39000471" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Business revolt grows over 'outrageous and unfair' rate change

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:42 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ban-nature" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pity the imperilled butterfly, fluttering out of toxic lives. Pity us, too
Philip Hoare

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:47 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... f-genocide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bosnia to appeal 2007 UN court ruling clearing Serbia of genocide

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:49 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prim ... -and-abuse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Press release
Prime Minister's plans to transform the way we tackle domestic violence and abuse

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:53 am

So will there be an exemption for sanctuary rooms in the obviously not bloody spare room policy,assurances for supported housing now under threat etc.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:54 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Ah yes Stephen the "unexpected"!!

Morning All.

One of my favourite poems by Neruda translates as 'I'm Explaining a Few Things'

So here I am. I popped by yesterday specifically to read Anatoly's round-up. Perhaps there were no by-elections. Probably I chose a bad day, with the Blair intervention....

It started me thinking of the time when people here were literally begging Anatoly to post that here. And then I reflected on the first days of this Forum. FlyTheNest - a haven from evil nesting. We decided to drop the "from evil nesting" and we added the lovely photo. It's North Haven on Fair Isle. A haven.

Things change and that's fine. But for me, and perhaps just for me, this place is no longer a haven. Sure the Brexit debate has become tedious, and me a tedious part of it, but that's not why I can't stay. I realised that there were political points I was simply scared of posting here because I knew what the reaction would be. Maybe that's fine for this place, but it's not for me.

Maybe I'll be back, if you'll have me, one day. I truly miss friends here. It's not particularly relevant, but I'll finish with the tremendous finale to that poem.

Preguntaréis por qué su poesía
no nos habla del sueño, de las hojas,
de los grandes volcanes de su país natal ?

Venid a ver la sangre por las calles.
venid a ver
la sangre por las calles,
venid a ver la sangre
por las calles!
And you will ask: why doesn’t his poetry
speak of dreams and leaves
and the great volcanoes of his native land?

Come and see the blood in the streets.
Come and see
the blood in the streets.
Come and see the blood
in the streets!

Shame you feel unable to express views you feel others will strongly disagree with.

The whole point is to allow space for vigorous dissent. A board where everyone thought the same would be incredibly dull (and intellectually embarrassing).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:59 am

Discretionary payments they scream.I personally find that offensive,as per caring responsibilities.Not only have they manufactured the need for them on a false basis,discretion should play no part.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:41 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ken Loach tells the grisly truth about benefits

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:50 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ism-campus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK universities urged to tackle rising tide of antisemitism on campus

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:59 am

https://www.theguardian.com/small-busin ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Small business commissioner faces a 'real challenge to make a difference

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 9:18 am

https://freepsychotherapynetwork.com/so ... 5th-march/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Some background to the MWA and the New Savoy demo and lobby Wednesday 15th March 2017

(Mental Wealth Alliance)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 9:23 am

Re Tory leaflet Stephen referred to

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... nst-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tory leaflets "falsely claim" Labour MPs in Stoke voted against Brexit
Local MPs Ruth Smeeth and Rob Flello have sought legal advice.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:00 am

http://www.leamingtoncourier.co.uk/news ... -1-7827068" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NHS IN CRISIS: Health service must not rely on ‘nursing on the cheap’

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:04 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ukip leader Paul Nuttall under pressure over claims he served on charity board

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:21 am

No round-up yesterday as there was actually a Friday byelection, in Wokingham. Which was a LibDem gain from Tory on a big swing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:35 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ul-nuttall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We are overdosing on empathy
Gaby Hinsliff

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:36 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... e-spending" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike Pence widens US rift with Europe over Nato defence spending

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:38 am

https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mental health issues are rife in prison, but I'm not trained to deal with them

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:47 am

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1573918 ... government" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour Press
Jeremy Corbyn speech to Labour’s Local Government Conference

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:50 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:No round-up yesterday as there was actually a Friday byelection, in Wokingham. Which was a LibDem gain from Tory on a big swing.

Made all the sweeter for being in John Redwoods constituency

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:58 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... obal-times" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trump's media attacks play into China's hands, says Beijing press

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:00 am

HindleA wrote:Re Tory leaflet Stephen referred to

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... nst-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tory leaflets "falsely claim" Labour MPs in Stoke voted against Brexit
Local MPs Ruth Smeeth and Rob Flello have sought legal advice.

I'd have thought it was on a par with the Woolas case,
especially as it (appears to) involve lying by the Prime Minister.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo ... -elections

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:00 am

@Paul

Like Hugo, I'm sorry you feel unable to express a view for fear of the reaction it may (or may not have) elicited. Debate is of course a two-way activity & can be on all manner of subjects but is usually led by whatever is going on in that days news, hence all the Blair related posts yesterday which you appeared to find troubling. Brexit is still the most important thing for the UK so to try & reduce the amount of posting about it is probably going to be unsuccessful.

Maybe now you can understand why I left. Sick of being isolated simply for not being a Corbyn fan & believing his leadership is damaging the party I loved.

You're right in that this was a haven but it changed from being one a long long time ago.

I hope you'll have some time out then come back refreshed & ready to debate again.

Take care of yourself xx

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:02 am

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/is-labours-brexit- ... u8.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is Labour’s Brexit dilemma being misunderstood

John Curtice

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:16 am

HindleA wrote:http://ukandeu.ac.uk/is-labours-brexit- ... u8.twitter

Is Labour’s Brexit dilemma being misunderstood

John Curtice

Some truth in it, but I think it misses that not all "remain" voters are of a hive "the 48%" mind.

In areas like my own, even many of the remain minority now accept that Brexit is happening and we have to get on with it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:17 am

HindleA wrote:http://ukandeu.ac.uk/is-labours-brexit- ... u8.twitter

Is Labour’s Brexit dilemma being misunderstood

John Curtice

That is a good piece. Labour had a difficult choice on Brexit, And made the wrong one in electoral terms (and in principle of course).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:28 am

Good morfternoon.

I'm not a fan of Jeremy Corbyn - but I don't feel isolated here as a result of that fact.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:37 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
HindleA wrote:http://ukandeu.ac.uk/is-labours-brexit- ... u8.twitter

Is Labour’s Brexit dilemma being misunderstood

John Curtice
Some truth in it, but I think it misses that not all "remain" voters are of a hive "the 48%" mind.

In areas like my own, even many of the remain minority now accept that Brexit is happening and we have to get on with it.

Because they have always thought that for themselves or because they have been led to believe that by the media and parliamentary consensus that "Brexit means Brexit"?

And that certainly doesn't mean they would necessarily be averse to the argument Ed Miliband tried to get going that although immigration certainly needs to be looked at, staying in the single market should be a priority.

Labour have meekly allowed May to ram the Brexit debate through parliament at breakneck speed. They have never challenged her timetable. And your argument that people just want to get on with it - there are lots of things the public want to get on with, but it's not always possible if they are to be done properly and that's not exactly a difficult argument to make by anyone so inclined over something as big as this.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:38 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I'm not a fan of Jeremy Corbyn - but I don't feel isolated here as a result of that fact.

Lurking more broadly, I think there has been a distinct change of mood in this regard.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:42 am

Toby tickling feet again,the scamp.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:43 am

Some will no doubt dismiss this as the usual stuff from me, but I think the criticism here is fair. An astonishing series of promotions for this person.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/02/17/ia ... more-21366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:56 am

That wasn't my foot.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:01 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Some will no doubt dismiss this as the usual stuff from me, but I think the criticism here is fair. An astonishing series of promotions for this person.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/02/17/ia ... more-21366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On this, I agree.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:04 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Some will no doubt dismiss this as the usual stuff from me, but I think the criticism here is fair. An astonishing series of promotions for this person.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/02/17/ia ... more-21366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Glad there are investigations ongoing. On the basis of what we've been permitted to see, there would certainly appear to be very serious questions demanding of serious answers.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:04 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Some will no doubt dismiss this as the usual stuff from me, but I think the criticism here is fair. An astonishing series of promotions for this person.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/02/17/ia ... more-21366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Corbyn's attitude to Lavery isn't unlike people who think because Theresa May's dad was a vicar then she can't possibly be dishonest and machivellian (as well as incompetent). Lavery's still getting mileage for his role in the miners' strike and of course for being a vocal enemy of New Labour. Corbyn seems wilfully blind to the charge sheet that Marchant presents.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:06 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

What do we think of this?

[img]jack's%20letter%20to%20Theresa-May-lying-letter.jpg[/img]

We are not happy.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:07 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:07 pm

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ealth-care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government should not be surprised by pressures on health care

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:12 pm

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1573929 ... c-violence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour Press
Consultation for robust domestic violence legislation is much needed and long overdue - Champion

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:32 pm

How long before Trump gets sidelined by his own party, and Mike Pence basically runs the show?

Just today, Pence was making a run of the mill speech in Europe on NATO. Could they have even trusted Trump to read the speech out and get of the stage without making a scene?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:34 pm

The Donald won't take kindly to being "sidelined", though <orders industrial sized bags of popcorn>

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:34 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I'm not a fan of Jeremy Corbyn - but I don't feel isolated here as a result of that fact.

Lurking more broadly, I think there has been a distinct change of mood in this regard.

Of those who recently left, many were Corbyn supporters, or at least supporters of his response to Brexit. Some who posted less after Corbyn was elected have been posting more again now, so I agree that is broadly true.

There were similar divergences of opinion when Ed was leader, of course, but the division now is greater. It stems, I believe, from the time of the leadership election last year when an attempt to dedicate threads to the contenders as had happened during other leadership elections led to a breakdown in respect for others right to their own opinion, a lack of respect that went well beyond "I think you're wrong to support Corbyn/Smith". I think for some posters the forum has felt a little less friendly since, but the idea it has become obsessed with a specific topic doesn't ring true for me. I've particularly been enjoying Adam's knowledgeable posts about US politics lately. The forum will only ever be the sum of its posts, so if anyone reading wants to see some different stuff on here then, please, get posting. The more the merrier. The "left" is very broad, there really should be room for more than one perspective.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:No round-up yesterday as there was actually a Friday byelection, in Wokingham. Which was a LibDem gain from Tory on a big swing.

(cJA bold)

Might explain T May's willingness risking perjury charges in letters. Labour MPs reiterating they haven't voted against May's, 'plan to deliver Brexit'.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 12:45 pm

What plan