Tuesday 28th February 2017
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
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Tuesday 28th February 2017
Well, there is more than one party that is adding to the gaiety of nations through spectacular incompetence
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -from-ukip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More Farage here
http://ijr.com/2017/02/810965-trump-dit ... -watching/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Well done with catsup! Philistine.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -from-ukip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More Farage here
http://ijr.com/2017/02/810965-trump-dit ... -watching/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Well done with catsup! Philistine.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One ‘not really disabled’ man has won against the system. I’m not celebrating
Aditya Chakrabortty
One ‘not really disabled’ man has won against the system. I’m not celebrating
Aditya Chakrabortty
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... -committee" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Raising pension age will mean many people die before getting it, say MPs
Can't find Report as yet.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... lications/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Raising pension age will mean many people die before getting it, say MPs
Can't find Report as yet.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... lications/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
From willow last night
Fixed it for you.Still, Labour voting against an amendment to stay in the single market isn't going to be popular withremaintheir voters.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Be vigilant
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/char ... idge-trust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Press release
Charity Commission publishes report on Garden Bridge Trust
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ase-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Press release
Charity Commission publishes report on Garden Bridge Trust
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ase-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
From the G live blog:
For some reason Labour's explanation for not supporting the amendment has disappointed me more than their actually voting against it. Curbing immigration will be a) bad for the economy ; b) impossible to achieve alongside any kind of beneficial access to the single market and c) is culturally regressive. I thought the point of political parties were for them to decide what they stand for and then try to win people to their cause - not change their cause to whatever people have been led to ask for by other, more persuasive, political parties. Labour have truly lost their way.
What Lady Hayter appears to be saying is that Labour have swallowed the Tory narrative that only a hard Brexit fulfils the result of the referendum and therefore won't be opposing them in any significant way.In the debate Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the shadow Brexit minister, explained why Labour was not supporting Hain’s move. She said accepting the amendment would mean acting “as if the referendum hadn’t happened” and effectively “asking the prime minister to eat her own words”. She went on:
With regard to free movement, we cannot simply airbrush this from the referendum decision. For if we turn round to those who voted out, and we say ‘yes we are out, but actually we are still having everything exactly as it was, we are still having free movement unchanged’, I think that might emit some surprise.
For some reason Labour's explanation for not supporting the amendment has disappointed me more than their actually voting against it. Curbing immigration will be a) bad for the economy ; b) impossible to achieve alongside any kind of beneficial access to the single market and c) is culturally regressive. I thought the point of political parties were for them to decide what they stand for and then try to win people to their cause - not change their cause to whatever people have been led to ask for by other, more persuasive, political parties. Labour have truly lost their way.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... -care.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Budget and Health Care
Mainlymacro
The Budget and Health Care
Mainlymacro
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... stomers-bt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Landline charges for 2m customers to be cut as telecoms watchdog steps in
Ofcom condemns poor value for money on landline-only accounts with plan to force biggest provider BT to trim phone bills by up to £7 a month
Quite right too,not that I may personally benefit(ahem)
Landline charges for 2m customers to be cut as telecoms watchdog steps in
Ofcom condemns poor value for money on landline-only accounts with plan to force biggest provider BT to trim phone bills by up to £7 a month
Quite right too,not that I may personally benefit(ahem)
Last edited by HindleA on Tue 28 Feb, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Yep. And are we thinking that the 'iron grip' of Corbyn (or McDonnell) has done this?Willow904 wrote:From the G live blog:
What Lady Hayter appears to be saying is that Labour have swallowed the Tory narrative that only a hard Brexit fulfils the result of the referendum and therefore won't be opposing them in any significant way.In the debate Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the shadow Brexit minister, explained why Labour was not supporting Hain’s move. She said accepting the amendment would mean acting “as if the referendum hadn’t happened” and effectively “asking the prime minister to eat her own words”. She went on:
With regard to free movement, we cannot simply airbrush this from the referendum decision. For if we turn round to those who voted out, and we say ‘yes we are out, but actually we are still having everything exactly as it was, we are still having free movement unchanged’, I think that might emit some surprise.
For some reason Labour's explanation for not supporting the amendment has disappointed me more than their actually voting against it. Curbing immigration will be a) bad for the economy ; b) impossible to achieve alongside any kind of beneficial access to the single market and c) is culturally regressive. I thought the point of political parties were for them to decide what they stand for and then try to win people to their cause - not change their cause to whatever people have been led to ask for by other, more persuasive, political parties. Labour have truly lost their way.
There's lots to think, puzzle, worry about.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Morning all. Early meeting in school so I'm late clocking on for the morning shift at FTN.
‘Far from clear’ if DfE can cope with academies expansion, warn MPs
http://schoolsweek.co.uk/far-from-clear ... -warn-mps/
How does that idea look now I wonder Nicky?
‘Far from clear’ if DfE can cope with academies expansion, warn MPs
http://schoolsweek.co.uk/far-from-clear ... -warn-mps/
A week or so back Morgan was saying she was proudest of her White Paper - that was the one proposing full academisation by 2022 at the latest.MPs have questioned the government’s capacity to cope with the growth of the academies programme, amid predictions of “further pressures” for its departments and agencies.
The commons education committee says it is “far from clear” if the Department for Education and Education Funding Agency can cope with the expansion of multi-academy trusts over the next five to six years, and has urged both organisations to outline how much they expect the sector to grow.
Although the government has abandoned plans to force all schools to become academies by 2022, the full academisation of the system remains the long-term ambition of ministers.
How does that idea look now I wonder Nicky?
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Wages docked.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... hs-prisons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The uncomfortable truth: UK government cuts have happened under our noses
Frances Ryan
The uncomfortable truth: UK government cuts have happened under our noses
Frances Ryan
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
It comes to something when an ex tory prime minister is more in tune with the views of labour voters at large than the party leadership!
When May came out with the silly statement that she was (I paraphrase) governing for all the country its clear she had totally ignored the 48%.
Good to see someone (with seemingly no ulterior motives?) standing up for the disenfranchised (nearly) half the population
When May came out with the silly statement that she was (I paraphrase) governing for all the country its clear she had totally ignored the 48%.
Good to see someone (with seemingly no ulterior motives?) standing up for the disenfranchised (nearly) half the population
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
There has been plenty from the likes of Andy Burnham and Dan Jarvis on immigration curbs to suggest that this is coming from the right of the party, but it seems to align with the stance from the Corbyn left which appears reluctant to say anything that may seem to go against the referendum result, including anything positive about the single market. Personally, I feel that the truth should be told, however unpalatable. The reason we joined the EU is because it was better than being on the outside. The reason Norway pays for membership of the single market is because it's better than being on the outside. The reason we have immigration is because we have jobs and people will always try to seek jobs in preference to struggling/starving. Shutting people out is akin to shutting people in. Recent arbitrary immigration decisions both here and in the US reveal the authoritarian impulse behind both Trump and Brexit. I don't think I can overstate just how uneasy it makes me feel to see Labour apparently going along with what seems to me to be a very dark, right wing agenda.StephenDolan wrote:Yep. And are we thinking that the 'iron grip' of Corbyn (or McDonnell) has done this?Willow904 wrote:From the G live blog:
What Lady Hayter appears to be saying is that Labour have swallowed the Tory narrative that only a hard Brexit fulfils the result of the referendum and therefore won't be opposing them in any significant way.In the debate Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the shadow Brexit minister, explained why Labour was not supporting Hain’s move. She said accepting the amendment would mean acting “as if the referendum hadn’t happened” and effectively “asking the prime minister to eat her own words”. She went on:
With regard to free movement, we cannot simply airbrush this from the referendum decision. For if we turn round to those who voted out, and we say ‘yes we are out, but actually we are still having everything exactly as it was, we are still having free movement unchanged’, I think that might emit some surprise.
For some reason Labour's explanation for not supporting the amendment has disappointed me more than their actually voting against it. Curbing immigration will be a) bad for the economy ; b) impossible to achieve alongside any kind of beneficial access to the single market and c) is culturally regressive. I thought the point of political parties were for them to decide what they stand for and then try to win people to their cause - not change their cause to whatever people have been led to ask for by other, more persuasive, political parties. Labour have truly lost their way.
There's lots to think, puzzle, worry about.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
This is what I'd like to hear from Labour.HindleA wrote:https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... -care.html
The Budget and Health Care
Mainlymacro
I can just about follow their train of thought over brexit, although I don't like it, but I can't follow it on public spending. They still seem to be suicidally compelled to stick to the household budget analogy, frightened to propose increases in spending. As Wren-Lewis says
Start educating the electorate now.there might be a short term boost to activity from a tax financed spending increase. This could be amplified, of course, if the tax increase was delayed for a year or two. As interest rates are still at their lower bound, such a boost to activity would be welcome.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://jennymorrisnet.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... al-of.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Some context on today's BBC Report(File on 4)on social care abuse"
Jenny Morris
"Some context on today's BBC Report(File on 4)on social care abuse"
Jenny Morris
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Smart meter tomorrow,compiling a set of questions to check,current one,bless him a bit dim.
- AngryAsWell
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Big question to askHindleA wrote:Smart meter tomorrow,compiling a set of questions to check,current one,bless him a bit dim.
Is it compatible (and will still work fully) with other suppliers if you change suppliers?
Martin Lewis mentioned something about this a couple of week ago, seems some will still work as in - work - but do not operate the smart features bit. In other words it just becomes a normal metre, so cost of it wasted. Or you just have to stay put and not change suppliers.
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
It would, however, be honest.RobertSnozers wrote:The problem with this is that it's been ingrained for over a decade - by Labour. It goes back to Gordon Brown's 'British jobs for British workers', the points based system introduced in the mid 2000s, and the narrative didn't change with Ed's 'controls on immigration' written on the mugs and the Ed Stone. The narrative is that it didn't convince anyone, but who knows how many votes a slightly tougher line on immigration secured or at least didn't lose?Willow904 wrote:There has been plenty from the likes of Andy Burnham and Dan Jarvis on immigration curbs to suggest that this is coming from the right of the party, but it seems to align with the stance from the Corbyn left which appears reluctant to say anything that may seem to go against the referendum result, including anything positive about the single market. Personally, I feel that the truth should be told, however unpalatable. The reason we joined the EU is because it was better than being on the outside. The reason Norway pays for membership of the single market is because it's better than being on the outside. The reason we have immigration is because we have jobs and people will always try to seek jobs in preference to struggling/starving. Shutting people out is akin to shutting people in. Recent arbitrary immigration decisions both here and in the US reveal the authoritarian impulse behind both Trump and Brexit. I don't think I can overstate just how uneasy it makes me feel to see Labour apparently going along with what seems to me to be a very dark, right wing agenda.StephenDolan wrote: Yep. And are we thinking that the 'iron grip' of Corbyn (or McDonnell) has done this?
There's lots to think, puzzle, worry about.
I maintain that arguing for full membership of the single market would be political suicide. Even Norway has exemptions.
And Ed Miliband was wrong to suggest controls on immigration were feasible or desirable. He convinced non-one who wanted them that he truly meant it and lost some respect from those who oppose the scapegoating of immigrants (as has Andy Burnham).
Leave voters have the leave campaign architects in government in the form of Tory ministers. Why are they going to vote for anyone else? I understand why Corbyn just wants to move on, to get Brexit out of the way and get back to national issues, but our relationship with the EU affects everything. It's not going to go away.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
@AAW If it can't name the winning goalscorer in the 1968 League Cup Final,as a bare minimum,it will automatically fail.Basics,first,but thanks for info.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Anyway,back to ShamiWatch,or is it LenWatch,have to check roster.
Last edited by HindleA on Tue 28 Feb, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
- RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Eleanor Garnier
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So... Aaron Banks's office has confirmed that it is his intention to stand against UKIPs only MP, Douglas Carswell, at the next election...
UKIP have officially taken the title over from Labour as "Party in most chaos".
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Thanks, Willow.Willow904 wrote:There has been plenty from the likes of Andy Burnham and Dan Jarvis on immigration curbs to suggest that this is coming from the right of the party, but it seems to align with the stance from the Corbyn left which appears reluctant to say anything that may seem to go against the referendum result, including anything positive about the single market. Personally, I feel that the truth should be told, however unpalatable. The reason we joined the EU is because it was better than being on the outside. The reason Norway pays for membership of the single market is because it's better than being on the outside. The reason we have immigration is because we have jobs and people will always try to seek jobs in preference to struggling/starving. Shutting people out is akin to shutting people in. Recent arbitrary immigration decisions both here and in the US reveal the authoritarian impulse behind both Trump and Brexit. I don't think I can overstate just how uneasy it makes me feel to see Labour apparently going along with what seems to me to be a very dark, right wing agenda.StephenDolan wrote:Yep. And are we thinking that the 'iron grip' of Corbyn (or McDonnell) has done this?Willow904 wrote:From the G live blog:
What Lady Hayter appears to be saying is that Labour have swallowed the Tory narrative that only a hard Brexit fulfils the result of the referendum and therefore won't be opposing them in any significant way.
For some reason Labour's explanation for not supporting the amendment has disappointed me more than their actually voting against it. Curbing immigration will be a) bad for the economy ; b) impossible to achieve alongside any kind of beneficial access to the single market and c) is culturally regressive. I thought the point of political parties were for them to decide what they stand for and then try to win people to their cause - not change their cause to whatever people have been led to ask for by other, more persuasive, political parties. Labour have truly lost their way.
There's lots to think, puzzle, worry about.
I think, that's my biggest problem with Labour currently, aside from brexit, or infighting: it's as you said, deciding on what they believe & then working to convince others. Labour had to fight to get elected in the first place, they didn't just magically coalesce around an already overwhelmingly popular cause, but currently their seems to be a reluctance to champion any views that aren't immediately popular (although I suppose, arguably some of Corbyn's views would contradict this).
With immigration, I can see why Burnham & others might want to have the discussion on why there might be a case for possible curbs/restrictions in some areas, but I'd then hope that they'd be arguing in favour of immigration, not just caving in for the easy vote.
At the moment I wouldn't trust this to be the case.
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Can't help but wonder what Ukip voters make of it. Surely they wouldn't be happy if Ukip got rid of their only MP.RogerOThornhill wrote:Eleanor Garnier
Verified account @BBCEleanorG
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So... Aaron Banks's office has confirmed that it is his intention to stand against UKIPs only MP, Douglas Carswell, at the next election...
UKIP have officially taken the title over from Labour as "Party in most chaos".
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
RobertSnozers comments above that you can't argue for the single market because no one wants it, that it's electoral poison. I'd at least like to see that theory put to the test, though. I'd like to see the negatives of leaving explained much, much better than we've seen so far. People who definitely want to leave won't listen and won't be swayed (and are currently helping the Tories ride high in the polls, hence their Copeland victory), but AK maintains there are plenty of voters who don't have strong feelings either way. Why is it assumed the only option people will consider is a hard Brexit? We don't really know how many voters would put curbing immigration above economic security, regardless of what they voted. Ed Miliband started down this road last year, trying to explain the trade off between immigration curbs and market access and suggesting Labour should prioritise market access. I still essentially agree with that. Voters aren't going to get what they want. They can't have their cake and eat it. Does Labour play the game and lead them down the garden path or does it tell the cold, hard truth? Which will voters thank them for in the long run?tinybgoat wrote:Thanks, Willow.Willow904 wrote:There has been plenty from the likes of Andy Burnham and Dan Jarvis on immigration curbs to suggest that this is coming from the right of the party, but it seems to align with the stance from the Corbyn left which appears reluctant to say anything that may seem to go against the referendum result, including anything positive about the single market. Personally, I feel that the truth should be told, however unpalatable. The reason we joined the EU is because it was better than being on the outside. The reason Norway pays for membership of the single market is because it's better than being on the outside. The reason we have immigration is because we have jobs and people will always try to seek jobs in preference to struggling/starving. Shutting people out is akin to shutting people in. Recent arbitrary immigration decisions both here and in the US reveal the authoritarian impulse behind both Trump and Brexit. I don't think I can overstate just how uneasy it makes me feel to see Labour apparently going along with what seems to me to be a very dark, right wing agenda.StephenDolan wrote: Yep. And are we thinking that the 'iron grip' of Corbyn (or McDonnell) has done this?
There's lots to think, puzzle, worry about.
I think, that's my biggest problem with Labour currently, aside from brexit, or infighting: it's as you said, deciding on what they believe & then working to convince others. Labour had to fight to get elected in the first place, they didn't just magically coalesce around an already overwhelmingly popular cause, but currently their seems to be a reluctance to champion any views that aren't immediately popular (although I suppose, arguably some of Corbyn's views would contradict this).
With immigration, I can see why Burnham & others might want to have the discussion on why there might be a case for possible curbs/restrictions in some areas, but I'd then hope that they'd be arguing in favour of immigration, not just caving in for the easy vote.
At the moment I wouldn't trust this to be the case.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
http://dpac.uk.net/2017/02/briefing-mps ... gulations/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Briefing to MPs and Lords on changes to PIP regulations
Briefing to MPs and Lords on changes to PIP regulations
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
UKIP has done iits job, most of the tory kippers have already switched back to Theresa - decline in the kipper vote is mirrored by the rise in the tory vote i the dreaded polls - its the labour kippers left there now. I actually think that there is a concerted internal effort to break the party apart now brexit has been delivered. Just leave a tiny rump of labour kippers fighting against the reds. I mean Banks standing against carswell is guaranteed to give the seat to the tories.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/po ... cial_icons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Government to repay Hackney man with no legs whose benefits were cut because he ‘could climb stairs with his arms
Government to repay Hackney man with no legs whose benefits were cut because he ‘could climb stairs with his arms
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Those who write about online security tend to have a view of smart meters that falls somewhere between scathing and finding it impossible not to laugh.HindleA wrote:Smart meter tomorrow,compiling a set of questions to check,current one,bless him a bit dim.
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ests-leaks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Donald Trump accuses Obama of orchestrating protest against him
Donald Trump accuses Obama of orchestrating protest against him
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
RobertSnozers wrote:Thanks for that, some useful info there. Have seen an increase in this sort of thing lately, so it makes sense that it's orchestrated.SpinningHugo wrote:Be vigilant
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Yes.
Bitterites everywhere.
Plotting.
Scheming.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
And about time too...
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Justine Greening about to announce that sex and relationships education is to be made compulsory for all schools, TES understands
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Are energy firms using new smart meters to stop you switching? A new device must be installed every time you change suppliers
Smart meters need to be turned off if you want to change suppliers
Digital meters are meant to save consumers hundreds on their energy bills
Firms can't read the information sent by smart meters from other providers
Around 50 million homes will be fitted with a smart meter by 2020
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mark ... z4ZypwhfzS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Smart meters need to be turned off if you want to change suppliers
Digital meters are meant to save consumers hundreds on their energy bills
Firms can't read the information sent by smart meters from other providers
Around 50 million homes will be fitted with a smart meter by 2020
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mark ... z4ZypwhfzS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... oner-rules" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tunisia beach attack: 30 Britons were unlawfully killed, coroner rules
Inquest rejects argument by victims’ families that neglect by tour operator played part in tragedy
Tunisia beach attack: 30 Britons were unlawfully killed, coroner rules
Inquest rejects argument by victims’ families that neglect by tour operator played part in tragedy
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
As we were told beforehand that staying in the single market was an option if we left the EU, and the result was tight, I suspect there is a clear majority in favour of staying n.RobertSnozers wrote:
The issue is not that no-one wants membership of the single market, or even that a not many people want it - there's clearly a large-ish minority that does.
But, on this issue, such electoral calculation is beside the point. It is bad for the UK, and will make the poor poorer, to leave the single market. Any responsible party of the left should be opposing the government on this.
As it happens, we are testing to destruction the view that it makes sense for Labour electorally to go down this path. So far, the evidence only points one way
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... -iraq.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But that is a second order consideration. What matters first is: what is the right thing to do?
Labour isn't doing that
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Every day according to Mandleson.SpinningHugo wrote:RobertSnozers wrote:Thanks for that, some useful info there. Have seen an increase in this sort of thing lately, so it makes sense that it's orchestrated.SpinningHugo wrote:Be vigilant
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes.
Bitterites everywhere.
Plotting.
Scheming.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Quite. Millions of the little rats, undermining the Leader.Temulkar wrote:Every day according to Mandleson.SpinningHugo wrote:RobertSnozers wrote: Thanks for that, some useful info there. Have seen an increase in this sort of thing lately, so it makes sense that it's orchestrated.
Yes.
Bitterites everywhere.
Plotting.
Scheming.
We need to hunt down Emmanuel Goldstein and eliminate him.
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
I'm simply looking for a party to vote for which is dedicated to as close ties to the EU as possible for all the right reasons, and that will involve having to accept freedom of movement. What you seem to be saying is that Labour can't/won't be that party. Which is why I wonder if I belong in it anymore. The remain side made a lot more points than the clumsy ones made by Cameron and Osborne and they will come to pass unremarked if no one opposes the Tories' hard Brexit. Environmental regulations are already being ignored by the government in preparation for when we leave and they scrap them, something which won't happen if we remain in the single market.RobertSnozers wrote:I said the latter. I most certainly did not say the former.Willow904 wrote:RobertSnozers comments above that you can't argue for the single market because no one wants it, that it's electoral poison.
The issue is not that no-one wants membership of the single market, or even that a not many people want it - there's clearly a large-ish minority that does. The electoral poison comes in because you'd have to try to sell the position of keeping the parts of the EU that those who wanted out voted to limit (free movement and large payments to be in the club) while losing the things that many remainers wanted (influence, equal partnership, internationalism). You'd end up alienating a large number of people on both sides. To be honest, I fail to see why the single market is such a touchstone for some, or why anyone thought that having voted to leave, we could retain full membership. Despite the manipulatively edited Open Britain video, literally no-one on the leave side was arguing for remaining a member of the single market (they said we'd continue to get the benefits of it, which is not the same thing at all).
It's far, far too late to start talking about the negatives of leaving. And now there would be absolutely no credibility to those arguments whatsoever. The leave side may have lied on an industrial scale, but their lies (apart from, arguably, the NHS one, which was discredited during the campaign anyway) have not yet been borne out. On the other hand, the dire predictions of the remain side - instant recession, an emergency budget, apocalypse - have been proven to be very wide of the mark. So coming up with more jeremiads now would be utterly pointless.Willow904 wrote:I'd at least like to see that theory put to the test, though. I'd like to see the negatives of leaving explained much, much better than we've seen so far. People who definitely want to leave won't listen and won't be swayed (and are currently helping the Tories ride high in the polls, hence their Copeland victory), but AK maintains there are plenty of voters who don't have strong feelings either way. Why is it assumed the only option people will consider is a hard Brexit? We don't really know how many voters would put curbing immigration above economic security, regardless of what they voted. Ed Miliband started down this road last year, trying to explain the trade off between immigration curbs and market access and suggesting Labour should prioritise market access. I still essentially agree with that. Voters aren't going to get what they want. They can't have their cake and eat it. Does Labour play the game and lead them down the garden path or does it tell the cold, hard truth? Which will voters thank them for in the long run?
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Well my usage is the bare minimum,only me to worry about,having working with the blind I am practised in getting around the dark as an example,apart from the occasional backwards somersaults down the stairs and trying to find the toilet in various cupboards etc.I'll keep an eye if it makes any difference.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Yes, they must be crushed!RobertSnozers wrote:And of course, the very existence of Saving Labour and Labour First is just a story to frighten young Corbynistas into delivering leafletsTemulkar wrote:Every day according to Mandleson.SpinningHugo wrote:
Yes.
Bitterites everywhere.
Plotting.
Scheming.
Quislings!
They are what is holding us back from Glorious Victory!
If it hadn't been for Labour First we would have increased our majority in Copeland and been well ahead in the polls.
Traitors!
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.myshreddies.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Yes indeed. Fair play to her for getting it done with Brexit dominating the news. The frothers have something else to froth about.RogerOThornhill wrote:And about time too...
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Justine Greening about to announce that sex and relationships education is to be made compulsory for all schools, TES understands
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
RobertSnozers wrote:You are a thoroughly nasty piece of work Hugo. I thought your invocation of Niemoller was bad, but this is a new low. I suppose we imagined the 4chan crowd who taunted Lily Allen over her miscarriage did we? I suppose organised social media piling-on campaigns are just in our imagination? I suppose concern trolling doesn't exist?SpinningHugo wrote:Quite. Millions of the little rats, undermining the Leader.Temulkar wrote: Every day according to Mandleson.
We need to hunt down Emmanuel Goldstein and eliminate him.
Absolutely.
All Jeremy, John and Seumas are asking for is the undivided loyalty that they gave in the past.
How grossly unfair that they are being undermined in a way that they so signally refused to do in the past.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... river-jobs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Uber v TfL: court hears written English test will cost 33,000 drivers their jobs
Ride-hailing app challenges Transport for London in high court over demand that all minicab drivers pass a written English test to get a licence
Uber v TfL: court hears written English test will cost 33,000 drivers their jobs
Ride-hailing app challenges Transport for London in high court over demand that all minicab drivers pass a written English test to get a licence
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
TBH Rob, I think Convolvulus is just clumsily referencing the book in an attempt to be witty rather than that, and you know I can barely contain my distaste for him generally.RobertSnozers wrote:You are a thoroughly nasty piece of work Hugo. I thought your invocation of Niemoller was bad, but this is a new low. I suppose we imagined the 4chan crowd who taunted Lily Allen over her miscarriage did we? I suppose organised social media piling-on campaigns are just in our imagination? I suppose concern trolling doesn't exist?SpinningHugo wrote:Quite. Millions of the little rats, undermining the Leader.Temulkar wrote: Every day according to Mandleson.
We need to hunt down Emmanuel Goldstein and eliminate him.
Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Ah now you're being a worm wriggling on a hook, you made your statements so stick by them dont try and move the conversation to a completely different point, as if it justified your earlier statement. It does not, and is a well established trolling technique, so if you're not trolling don't do it SH.SpinningHugo wrote:RobertSnozers wrote:You are a thoroughly nasty piece of work Hugo. I thought your invocation of Niemoller was bad, but this is a new low. I suppose we imagined the 4chan crowd who taunted Lily Allen over her miscarriage did we? I suppose organised social media piling-on campaigns are just in our imagination? I suppose concern trolling doesn't exist?SpinningHugo wrote: Quite. Millions of the little rats, undermining the Leader.
We need to hunt down Emmanuel Goldstein and eliminate him.
Absolutely.
All Jeremy, John and Seumas are asking for is the undivided loyalty that they gave in the past.
How grossly unfair that they are being undermined in a way that they so signally refused to do in the past.
Last edited by Temulkar on Tue 28 Feb, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Relaunch imminent, as Seumas gets a grip on things
http://www.politico.eu/article/court-of ... left-wing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.politico.eu/article/court-of ... left-wing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
"Internationalist" Corbyn wants no part of NATO or, as far as I can tell. He'll chuck the Single Market away so he can compete with Trump on steel tariffs. And a dollop of the anti-imperialism of fools.
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Re: Tuesday 28th February 2017
Ellie Price @EllieJPrice
Nigel Farage says Douglas Carswell needs to finally be expelled but that he's not involved and it's not up to him.
11:32 AM - 28 Feb 2017
Yeah right! Posh boy insults Posh boy by calling him a Posh boy. Laughable.
Nigel Farage says Douglas Carswell needs to finally be expelled but that he's not involved and it's not up to him.
11:32 AM - 28 Feb 2017
Yeah right! Posh boy insults Posh boy by calling him a Posh boy. Laughable.