Friday 3rd March 2017

[Tubby Isaacs]

Doesn't work like that.

I point out a very striking trend. I suggest it applies in a particular case.

You start waffling on about anti-Semitism and Gerald Kaufman.

It's over to you. Tell me why Kersal should be an exception to a very striking trend.

[AngryAsWell]

Kersal - one "L" not two - is the most Jewish ward in England and Wales (41.0% of the population at the last census). It has an Eruv around it (Higher Broughton/ Broughton Park)
http://election-data.co.uk/andrews-previews-02-03-17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Arnie Saunders is a Rabbi, who campaigned successfully against Corbyn, rather than just for local issues.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5cLZ-FWUAAXyHh.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How do I know this? I work (of and on, more off than on these days) & shop in the area (Jewish bread and Deli are the best!) and know many people who live there and who campaigned specifically against Corbyn. His name was used rather than the Labour candidate's name - see the above poster. A good friend (I went to collage with her many years ago) was actively telling people they "have" to vote for "our" Rabbi not "that out of touch old man".

[tinyclanger2]

Forum rules

Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.

Can we amend the rules please. To add something like:

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Ta.

[howsillyofme1]

Change the rules if you want...what are the consequences

[tinyclanger2]

PS: directed to all of us, myself included.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Tories seem to like sticking up images of Corbyn with a megaphone, don't they?

I've never said Corbyn deserves this sort of stuff, as it goes, and clearly the problem predated him. He doesn't help himself though. I read that the Chakrabarti report was fine, but it looked pretty awful the way she was touted as independent, then became a peer, then basically a Corbynite hack. It was a huge waste of her talents.

[tinyclanger2]

Well, I'm hoping the consequences are that the board can endure very significant discussions without being an unpleasant place to be.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Change the rules if you want...what are the consequences

We now know that the Tories campaigned very specifically against Corbyn, and stuck up a Rabbi as candidate.

What do you make of that?

[tinyclanger2]

can we have a "scrap, scrap, scrap" emoticon please.

which reminds me - where's me v-flicking emoticon?

how in the world am I supposed to work effectively without a v-flicking emoticon?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I don't like this sort of campaigning at all, let's be clear about that. It's the sort of stuff George Galloway came out with against Sadiq Khan, trying to make the London Mayoralty into a vote on Zionism.

Whether the Tories will go as full out for it in other cases, I don't know. They've got enough of a shift to them anyway.

[tinyclanger2]

god. have just got nostalgic about standing around in a circle chanting "scrap, scrap". is it age?

[tinyclanger2]

or an unfortunate youth?

[tinyclanger2]

it's the end of a long week.
I can feel a vermouth coming on.

[AngryAsWell]

or an unfortunate youth?

Both I would think....

[tinyclanger2]

you're probably right.

[tinyclanger2]

sorry Tubby and HSOM - didn't mean to interrupt (only ameliorate).
carry on.

[howsillyofme1]

How do you know it was the Tories who took Labour votes

I asked my Labour member friends who live there and they were clear it was the independent who harmed them the most and the Tories held their vote

The Jewish population as said before and from well before Corbyn have voted Tory here and elsewhere

The insinuation is that Labour lost the seat because Jewish voters went Tory....of course a Tory Jewish candidate will use Corbyn and stretch the truth about him to get votes

Isaacs linked the victory clearly and uniquely to the Jewish vote

It may have contributed but as I say it is typically lazy

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/03/03/kersal ... ot-corbyn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

Let's get things straight about Kersal.

Labour have already been hit by the anti-Semitism stuff locally, hence the Tories running Labour close here last May and winning the neighbouring ward in Bury then for the first time in a quarter of a century. But what happened this time round was that Labour support tanked in the *less* Jewish (and less middle class) part of the ward because of the stadium redevelopment controversy - the local tenants association have declared hostilities with the Labour run council over it, and the Independent candidate was one of their number.

Tubby's snark above about "local issues" does still have a bit of a point however, even if not quite as they intend. The reason "local issues" hit Labour so hard here - and of course, did so in Copeland a week ago - is that there are so few compelling reasons to vote FOR the party at present. The responsibility for that goes wider than the leadership btw.

[Tubby Isaacs]

How do you know it was the Tories who took Labour votes

I asked my Labour member friends who live there and they were clear it was the independent who harmed them the most and the Tories held their vote

The Jewish population as said before and from well before Corbyn have voted Tory here and elsewhere

The insinuation is that Labour lost the seat because Jewish voters went Tory....of course a Tory Jewish candidate will use Corbyn and stretch the truth about him to get votes

Isaacs linked the victory clearly and uniquely to the Jewish vote

It may have contributed but as I say it is typically lazy

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/03/03/kersal ... ot-corbyn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You're spinning like Shami there.

Here's what I said.

41% Jewish population- might not be big fans of Jez.

That's not clearly and uniquely, is it? That's suggesting a factor, which is line with a general fact about Jewish opinion on Corbyn.

I don't bother with Skwawkbox, thanks. I engaged with him the other day on his "sinister puppet master, Paul Farrelly" nonsense and he didn't stick up my response.

[StephenDolan]

Thanks AK.

As for Akehurst, well...

[tinyclanger2]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ar-quality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After Brexit and Donald Trump’s shock victory, international attention is focused on the advance of comparable populist, nativist and nationalist forces across Europe in the run-up to this month’s pivotal election in the Netherlands and upcoming polls in France and Germany.

But another, less dramatic side of the story has received less scrutiny: the failure of political establishments of the centre-left and centre-right to produce credible, trustworthy successors to match the dominant political figures who bestrode the European stage in recent decades.

[StephenDolan]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ar-quality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After Brexit and Donald Trump’s shock victory, international attention is focused on the advance of comparable populist, nativist and nationalist forces across Europe in the run-up to this month’s pivotal election in the Netherlands and upcoming polls in France and Germany.

But another, less dramatic side of the story has received less scrutiny: the failure of political establishments of the centre-left and centre-right to produce credible, trustworthy successors to match the dominant political figures who bestrode the European stage in recent decades.

Kinda shows how the third way triangulation idea of the 90s is dead as a dvd.

[tinyclanger2]

Objectionable though his views are to many voters, Wilders has star quality that is lacking among more conventional politicians. He is better understood as an anti-politician, not dissimilar to Trump and Britain’s Nigel Farage. Mainstream Dutch politics has not always suffered a charisma deficit. Previous prime ministers Ruud Lubbers and Wim Kok were formidable figures. They ensured the Netherlands mostly punched above its weight, whereas Wilders promises only marginalisation.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Is this the same Wilders who is currently plummeting in the Dutch polls? Just asking

[tinyclanger2]

the very same:
https://www.ft.com/content/c5e12a58-ff7 ... 00c5664d30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

And let's not forget:

Wilders was found guilty of inciting discrimination at a rally where he called for “fewer Moroccans”. His supporters in this overwhelmingly white, conservative town see the trial and verdict as political persecution of a maverick anti-establishment champion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -far-right" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

banned from Britain a few years back. look at us now.

[tinyclanger2]

After Dismaland, Banksy's latest efforts:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... wall-hotel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Banksy opens hotel on Bethlehem barrier wall
Exclusive: British artist launches Walled Off Hotel in hope of bringing Israeli tourists – and dialogue – to West Bank city

Banksy generally avoids commenting on his work, saying he prefers to let the images speak for themselves, but the video ends with the camera lingering on an overtly political message, also spray-painted on to a wall: “If we wash our hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless we side with the powerful – we don’t remain neutral.”

[howsillyofme1]

Thanks AK for your consistently reasonable and measured post (I admit I am aggressive when I post at times but it shows my deep frustration at what has happened here)

I will explain why I reacted

A poster on here who daily posts may things that just seem to be blaming Corbyn for every single ill in the Labour Party - as the leader he bears some responsibility of course but the lack of unity and competence of the people who oppose him are also major, if not The major, contributor

I don't care if people support Corbyn or not - he is not the be all and end all of Labour and some of us have tried to articulate on here that we support him because he is the incumbent, after two fair elections, and no-one else is ready to replace him. The rabid Corbyn haters in the PLP have no response to requests to put someone up

The party membership are quite clear and the contempt they are held in by the likes of McTernan and Akehurst speak a lot about them

Isaacs and his ilk are telling us they have left Labour, cannot stand Labour under Corbyn and post comment after comment telling us all the same thing - becoming less and less interesting and lazy in doing so . The party is membership is behind Corbyn - if you do not like it join someone else (Plaid, Greens or the Lib Dems) or support the new Osborne/Mandelson party that seems to being talked about!)

We, in Labour, want to win but we also want to see the right sort of policies winning - not following with the Tories economically. Corbyn may not be the man who wins for us, but the Kinnock wasn't either and we stuck with him through two defeats.

The reaction I had to day was over this linking of this defeat in Kersal with Corbyn and the Jewish vote. I don't care what you say Isaacs you were alluding to 'anti-semitism' accusations made against Corbyn.

Akehurst is a contemptible person and has been at the forefront of this and the evidence is not there to back up any of them. I am suspicious that this is in part being funded by the Israeli Government - and this is not because of the religion it is because the Israeli Government contains some very unpleasant right-wing people who I share no values with, nor share values with the vast majority of Jewish people I know. I have seen no evidence of any anti-Jewish sentiment from Corbyn, although he is clearly anti-Israeli Government

If you are going to make this snide lazy comments about Corbyn then be prepared to be called out on it

You may have a poor opinion of Skwarkbox, that is up to you, but perhaps you should understand there are a lot of ex-posters from this board who see your obsession with Corbyn and lazy posts in the same light

[Tubby Isaacs]

Let's get things straight about Kersal.

Labour have already been hit by the anti-Semitism stuff locally, hence the Tories running Labour close here last May and winning the neighbouring ward in Bury then for the first time in a quarter of a century. But what happened this time round was that Labour support tanked in the *less* Jewish (and less middle class) part of the ward because of the stadium redevelopment controversy - the local tenants association have declared hostilities with the Labour run council over it, and the Independent candidate was one of their number.

Tubby's snark above about "local issues" does still have a bit of a point however, even if not quite as they intend. The reason "local issues" hit Labour so hard here - and of course, did so in Copeland a week ago - is that there are so few compelling reasons to vote FOR the party at present. The responsibility for that goes wider than the leadership btw.

It wasn't a snark at local issues. It was a snark at them being used to get the leadership off the hook, which is what he was doing.

Are the full scores on the doors in? By the way, I never said it was only down to Jewish voters. That's Howsilly talking out of his arse. But a halving of support under the current leader among Jews is a huge problem in any Jewish area, no?

The local issue in Copeland was nuclear power, wasn't it? The leader's fingerprints are all over that.

Not every ward has 41% Jewish voters, or a nuclear power station, of course. But where exactly is he supposed to be an asset? Given his EU stuff, he's not an asset in college towns, I shouldn't think.

[howsillyofme1]

Let's get things straight about Kersal.

Labour have already been hit by the anti-Semitism stuff locally, hence the Tories running Labour close here last May and winning the neighbouring ward in Bury then for the first time in a quarter of a century. But what happened this time round was that Labour support tanked in the *less* Jewish (and less middle class) part of the ward because of the stadium redevelopment controversy - the local tenants association have declared hostilities with the Labour run council over it, and the Independent candidate was one of their number.

Tubby's snark above about "local issues" does still have a bit of a point however, even if not quite as they intend. The reason "local issues" hit Labour so hard here - and of course, did so in Copeland a week ago - is that there are so few compelling reasons to vote FOR the party at present. The responsibility for that goes wider than the leadership btw.

It wasn't a snark at local issues. It was a snark at them being used to get the leadership off the hook, which is what he was doing.

Are the full scores on the doors in? By the way, I never said it was only down to Jewish voters. That's Howsilly talking out of his arse. But a halving of support under the current leader among Jews is a huge problem in any Jewish area, no?

The local issue in Copeland was nuclear power, wasn't it? The leader's fingerprints are all over that.

Not every ward has 41% Jewish voters, or a nuclear power station, of course. But where exactly is he supposed to be an asset? Given his EU stuff, he's not an asset in college towns, I shouldn't think.

Then why mention Jewish voters and linking it to Corbyn then?

Bloody laziness and blinkered vision perhaps?

When an Independent has a major effect on the result then you can guess that there is something local going on and it is not an indication of the national party to any great extent...

Copeland was due to a lot of factors, some of which will be linked to Corbyn, some to the local MP's resignation and some to be due with the disunity of the party. Some will be down to the fact that we are living in non-standard times with the Brexit vote still playing in the background

The thing is I do not know and you most certainly bloody don't know what caused the Copeland result...you though use it to blame Corbyn because you are either too lazy or intellectually challenged to consider anything else

It is acceptable to admit things are complex and there are a lot of complicating factors

I can also point out that Labour were doing okayish until the attempted coup by the PLP......why, in your simple view of the world, not say that is the main cause for the Labour situation as well?

Labour have a non-ideal leader but for some of us he is in place and there is no-one acceptable put up to challenge him. Miliband was also not the most ideal leader either but I do not blame him alone for 2015. We have had a pathetic attempt by the PLP to overthrow the leader and managed to bloody fail! We have had senior members of the party briefing against the leadership whenever they get the chance. We have a completely hostile media for a number of reasons and then on top of that we have bloody Brexit. A public that votes against their best interests in Brexit may also be voting against their best interests politically as well - would a Britain under Corbyn as PM be, in your view, a worse Britain than one under May?

I think you will side with the Tory to be honest

All you can see though is Corbyn, Corbyn and Corbyn - sad really

[Tubby Isaacs]

Thanks AK for your consistently reasonable and measured post (I admit I am aggressive when I post at times but it shows my deep frustration at what has happened here)

I will explain why I reacted

A poster on here who daily posts may things that just seem to be blaming Corbyn for every single ill in the Labour Party - as the leader he bears some responsibility of course but the lack of unity and competence of the people who oppose him are also major, if not The major, contributor

I don't care if people support Corbyn or not - he is not the be all and end all of Labour and some of us have tried to articulate on here that we support him because he is the incumbent, after two fair elections, and no-one else is ready to replace him. The rabid Corbyn haters in the PLP have no response to requests to put someone up

The party membership are quite clear and the contempt they are held in by the likes of McTernan and Akehurst speak a lot about them

Isaacs and his ilk are telling us they have left Labour, cannot stand Labour under Corbyn and post comment after comment telling us all the same thing - becoming less and less interesting and lazy in doing so . The party is membership is behind Corbyn - if you do not like it join someone else (Plaid, Greens or the Lib Dems) or support the new Osborne/Mandelson party that seems to being talked about!)

We, in Labour, want to win but we also want to see the right sort of policies winning - not following with the Tories economically. Corbyn may not be the man who wins for us, but the Kinnock wasn't either and we stuck with him through two defeats.

The reaction I had to day was over this linking of this defeat in Kersal with Corbyn and the Jewish vote. I don't care what you say Isaacs you were alluding to 'anti-semitism' accusations made against Corbyn.

Akehurst is a contemptible person and has been at the forefront of this and the evidence is not there to back up any of them. I am suspicious that this is in part being funded by the Israeli Government - and this is not because of the religion it is because the Israeli Government contains some very unpleasant right-wing people who I share no values with, nor share values with the vast majority of Jewish people I know. I have seen no evidence of any anti-Jewish sentiment from Corbyn, although he is clearly anti-Israeli Government

If you are going to make this snide lazy comments about Corbyn then be prepared to be called out on it

You may have a poor opinion of Skwarkbox, that is up to you, but perhaps you should understand there are a lot of ex-posters from this board who see your obsession with Corbyn and lazy posts in the same light

I'm sure that'll work. Tell Jewish voters that it's all an Israeli plot. That's a winning trope there, Jews and secret plots.

This tin eared stuff is incredible.

Likud are appalling, as are there UK surrogates in, among other places, the Jewish Chronicle. There's indeed lots of opposition among UK Jews to them. Shouldn't Labour be doing a lot better with Jews? It's doing a lot worse.

[tinyclanger2]

I shall be requesting a "break it up lads" emoticon at this rate.

[howsillyofme1]

Thanks AK for your consistently reasonable and measured post (I admit I am aggressive when I post at times but it shows my deep frustration at what has happened here)

I will explain why I reacted

A poster on here who daily posts may things that just seem to be blaming Corbyn for every single ill in the Labour Party - as the leader he bears some responsibility of course but the lack of unity and competence of the people who oppose him are also major, if not The major, contributor

I don't care if people support Corbyn or not - he is not the be all and end all of Labour and some of us have tried to articulate on here that we support him because he is the incumbent, after two fair elections, and no-one else is ready to replace him. The rabid Corbyn haters in the PLP have no response to requests to put someone up

The party membership are quite clear and the contempt they are held in by the likes of McTernan and Akehurst speak a lot about them

Isaacs and his ilk are telling us they have left Labour, cannot stand Labour under Corbyn and post comment after comment telling us all the same thing - becoming less and less interesting and lazy in doing so . The party is membership is behind Corbyn - if you do not like it join someone else (Plaid, Greens or the Lib Dems) or support the new Osborne/Mandelson party that seems to being talked about!)

We, in Labour, want to win but we also want to see the right sort of policies winning - not following with the Tories economically. Corbyn may not be the man who wins for us, but the Kinnock wasn't either and we stuck with him through two defeats.

The reaction I had to day was over this linking of this defeat in Kersal with Corbyn and the Jewish vote. I don't care what you say Isaacs you were alluding to 'anti-semitism' accusations made against Corbyn.

Akehurst is a contemptible person and has been at the forefront of this and the evidence is not there to back up any of them. I am suspicious that this is in part being funded by the Israeli Government - and this is not because of the religion it is because the Israeli Government contains some very unpleasant right-wing people who I share no values with, nor share values with the vast majority of Jewish people I know. I have seen no evidence of any anti-Jewish sentiment from Corbyn, although he is clearly anti-Israeli Government

If you are going to make this snide lazy comments about Corbyn then be prepared to be called out on it

You may have a poor opinion of Skwarkbox, that is up to you, but perhaps you should understand there are a lot of ex-posters from this board who see your obsession with Corbyn and lazy posts in the same light

I'm sure that'll work. Tell Jewish voters that it's all an Israeli plot. That's a winning trope there, Jews and secret plots.

This tin eared stuff is incredible.

Likud are appalling, as are there UK surrogates in, among other places, the Jewish Chronicle. There's indeed lots of opposition among UK Jews to them. Shouldn't Labour be doing a lot better with Jews? It's doing a lot worse.

Don't you fucking dare to insinuate I am an anti-semite you twat!

There is nothing in saying that the israeli Government would be trying to influence politics in other countries is a 'Jewish plot' - that is the most fucking offensive and typically lazy shit I have read here in a long time - even coming from you

Oh and of course Labour should hopefully be doing better amongst Jewish voters (I am inherently uncomfortable about defining people by race or religion when it comes to politics) but then they weren't doing much better under Miliband, and look at the treatment he got from the press

[Tubby Isaacs]

I can also point out that Labour were doing okayish until the attempted coup by the PLP......why, in your simple view of the world, not say that is the main cause for the Labour situation as well?

The buck stops with the leader. If you can't stop your parliamentary party from voting 80-20 against you, you shouldn't be doing the job. It's unfathomable to the public that you carry on after that.

And drop this "coup" stuff. They basically went on strike. Stop trying to make people who thought Corbyn was going to lose them their seats sound like General Pinochet.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Thanks AK for your consistently reasonable and measured post (I admit I am aggressive when I post at times but it shows my deep frustration at what has happened here)

I will explain why I reacted

A poster on here who daily posts may things that just seem to be blaming Corbyn for every single ill in the Labour Party - as the leader he bears some responsibility of course but the lack of unity and competence of the people who oppose him are also major, if not The major, contributor

I don't care if people support Corbyn or not - he is not the be all and end all of Labour and some of us have tried to articulate on here that we support him because he is the incumbent, after two fair elections, and no-one else is ready to replace him. The rabid Corbyn haters in the PLP have no response to requests to put someone up

The party membership are quite clear and the contempt they are held in by the likes of McTernan and Akehurst speak a lot about them

Isaacs and his ilk are telling us they have left Labour, cannot stand Labour under Corbyn and post comment after comment telling us all the same thing - becoming less and less interesting and lazy in doing so . The party is membership is behind Corbyn - if you do not like it join someone else (Plaid, Greens or the Lib Dems) or support the new Osborne/Mandelson party that seems to being talked about!)

We, in Labour, want to win but we also want to see the right sort of policies winning - not following with the Tories economically. Corbyn may not be the man who wins for us, but the Kinnock wasn't either and we stuck with him through two defeats.

The reaction I had to day was over this linking of this defeat in Kersal with Corbyn and the Jewish vote. I don't care what you say Isaacs you were alluding to 'anti-semitism' accusations made against Corbyn.

Akehurst is a contemptible person and has been at the forefront of this and the evidence is not there to back up any of them. I am suspicious that this is in part being funded by the Israeli Government - and this is not because of the religion it is because the Israeli Government contains some very unpleasant right-wing people who I share no values with, nor share values with the vast majority of Jewish people I know. I have seen no evidence of any anti-Jewish sentiment from Corbyn, although he is clearly anti-Israeli Government

If you are going to make this snide lazy comments about Corbyn then be prepared to be called out on it

You may have a poor opinion of Skwarkbox, that is up to you, but perhaps you should understand there are a lot of ex-posters from this board who see your obsession with Corbyn and lazy posts in the same light

I'm sure that'll work. Tell Jewish voters that it's all an Israeli plot. That's a winning trope there, Jews and secret plots.

This tin eared stuff is incredible.

Likud are appalling, as are there UK surrogates in, among other places, the Jewish Chronicle. There's indeed lots of opposition among UK Jews to them. Shouldn't Labour be doing a lot better with Jews? It's doing a lot worse.

Don't you fucking dare to insinuate I am an anti-semite you twat!

There is nothing in saying that the israeli Government would be trying to influence politics in other countries is a 'Jewish plot' - that is the most fucking offensive and typically lazy shit I have read here in a long time - even coming from you

I didn't do that, did I? I've never accused Corbyn of it either.

I said it was tin-eared. That's very different.

[howsillyofme1]

I'm sure that'll work. Tell Jewish voters that it's all an Israeli plot. That's a winning trope there, Jews and secret plots.

This tin eared stuff is incredible.

Likud are appalling, as are there UK surrogates in, among other places, the Jewish Chronicle. There's indeed lots of opposition among UK Jews to them. Shouldn't Labour be doing a lot better with Jews? It's doing a lot worse.

Don't you fucking dare to insinuate I am an anti-semite you twat!

There is nothing in saying that the israeli Government would be trying to influence politics in other countries is a 'Jewish plot' - that is the most fucking offensive and typically lazy shit I have read here in a long time - even coming from you

I didn't do that, did I? I've never accused Corbyn of it either.

I said it was tin-eared. That's very different.

You did do that....you just don't see it though do you

And it was a 'coup' in the way that they tried to force him to resign and thus prevent him from standing again.....all attempts were made to get around the rules

[AnatolyKasparov]

Disappointing to see folk parroting Akehurst's partisan assessment of Kersal. So pointing out the proportion of Jewish voters to the exclusion of all else to have a go at Corbyn is fine, but raising the range of other local issues widely accepted to have influenced the vote is deserving of sarcasm?

Every time people swallow the line about anti-Semitism in Labour, they are doing the right's job for them. Who was it who was prosecuted for a targeted campaign on Luciana Berger? The far right. Who is who's been smashing up Jewish cemetaries in the US? The far right. Yes, Labour has a small, marginal problem with anti-Semitism that should not be ignored, which is exactly the same for the other mainstream parties. Yet instead of blaming the media and the political establishment for stitching up Labour and letting everyone else off the hook, the argument is that it's all Corbyn's fault? Feeble.

When news of that first emerged, several leapt to the convenient conclusion that "Corbynistas" were responsible.

Amazingly, quite a few never bothered to retract subsequently.

[tinyclanger2]

Please can you think before you write.
The discussions are interesting but the mode of expression seriously undermines them.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Mind you, the likes of Nick Cohen have all but blamed the Jo Cox killing on Corbyn (and much else besides)

[howsillyofme1]

I would like Isaacs to answer the question as to who he prefers to be PM implementing their political ideology - Corbyn or May?

[tinyclanger2]

I preferred it when the discussions here were interesting, robust sometimes but always respectful.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Disappointing to see folk parroting Akehurst's partisan assessment of Kersal. So pointing out the proportion of Jewish voters to the exclusion of all else to have a go at Corbyn is fine, but raising the range of other local issues widely accepted to have influenced the vote is deserving of sarcasm?

Every time people swallow the line about anti-Semitism in Labour, they are doing the right's job for them. Who was it who was prosecuted for a targeted campaign on Luciana Berger? The far right. Who is who's been smashing up Jewish cemetaries in the US? The far right. Yes, Labour has a small, marginal problem with anti-Semitism that should not be ignored, which is exactly the same for the other mainstream parties. Yet instead of blaming the media and the political establishment for stitching up Labour and letting everyone else off the hook, the argument is that it's all Corbyn's fault? Feeble.

Hang on.

You're saying observing a problem with Jewish voters is "parroting Akehurst"? I got 41% Jewish from Britain Elects, who retweeted it. I went there because the post on here cited Britain Elects.

I never look at Akehurst's twitter and don't like him.

I've never made much of anti-Semitism in Labour either, as I recall. Or Corbyn.

There's a general problem. There was no doubt a Kelsall problem too. There'll be a problem in other places without controversial football stadiums too.

[howsillyofme1]

Please can you think before you write.
The discussions are interesting but the mode of expression seriously undermines them.

It was inferred that I was an anti-semite whatever Isaacs said 'Jewish plot' was used in his post which is absolutely not in anything I said

I stand by my response to that vile insinuation

[AnatolyKasparov]

Anyway.......

Pretty remarkable final result in NI - DUP barely 1k votes ahead of Sinn Fein on first preferences.

And for the first time ever, one of those two parties has "won" every constituency - the SDLP in particular has been squeezed badly.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm sure that'll work. Tell Jewish voters that it's all an Israeli plot. That's a winning trope there, Jews and secret plots.

That's an accusation of anti-Semitism. And it's even less veiled than Hugo's 1984 BS earlier in the week.

Apology in order.

No it isn't at all. It's a criticism that it's tin-eared, as I just said.

Using a trope unwittingly that anti-Semites use doesn't make you an anti-Semite. I didn't expect it to be taken like that.

[howsillyofme1]

Disappointing to see folk parroting Akehurst's partisan assessment of Kersal. So pointing out the proportion of Jewish voters to the exclusion of all else to have a go at Corbyn is fine, but raising the range of other local issues widely accepted to have influenced the vote is deserving of sarcasm?

Every time people swallow the line about anti-Semitism in Labour, they are doing the right's job for them. Who was it who was prosecuted for a targeted campaign on Luciana Berger? The far right. Who is who's been smashing up Jewish cemetaries in the US? The far right. Yes, Labour has a small, marginal problem with anti-Semitism that should not be ignored, which is exactly the same for the other mainstream parties. Yet instead of blaming the media and the political establishment for stitching up Labour and letting everyone else off the hook, the argument is that it's all Corbyn's fault? Feeble.

Hang on.

You're saying observing a problem with Jewish voters is "parroting Akehurst"? I got 41% Jewish from Britain Elects, who retweeted it. I went there because the post on here cited Britain Elects.

I never look at Akehurst's twitter and don't like him.

I've never made much of anti-Semitism in Labour either, as I recall. Or Corbyn.

There's a general problem. There was no doubt a Kelsall problem too. There'll be a problem in other places without controversial football stadiums too.

You linked the loss of the seat and its proportion of Jewish voters directly to Corbyn (and not Labour)

It is either a contemptible attempt to continue this anti-semitism theme or just downright laziness that you are normally allowed to get away with

Labour has had a long term issue with Jewish voters....even under a Jewish leader who was attacked for his 'weirdness' and barely hidden racism from the press....they managed to get <20% of the votes

This is not a Corbyn issue but a Labour one....and we can speculate different reasons why

[howsillyofme1]

I'm sure that'll work. Tell Jewish voters that it's all an Israeli plot. That's a winning trope there, Jews and secret plots.

That's an accusation of anti-Semitism. And it's even less veiled than Hugo's 1984 BS earlier in the week.

Apology in order.

No it isn't at all. It's a criticism that it's tin-eared, as I just said.

Using a trope unwittingly that anti-Semites use doesn't make you an anti-Semite. I didn't expect it to be taken like that.

Talking about 'Jewish plots' is considered anti-semitic (look at Ruth Smeeth's response when it was even suggested she knew people in the media) and you insinuated that is what I was saying - hence I am anti-semitic

This is exactly the shit I have come to expect from you

Do you really believe that point you made that accusing someone of saying something that is one of the indicators of anti-semitism won't be taken in that way

Are you that thick?

[howsillyofme1]

Anyway.......

Pretty remarkable final result in NI - DUP barely 1k votes ahead of Sinn Fein on first preferences.

And for the first time ever, one of those two parties has "won" every constituency - the SDLP in particular has been squeezed badly.

Interesting result....in a strange election

I was just imagining that when I was in Manchester when the 1st bombs went off in the early 90s what was the likelihood that Sinn Fein are starting to become a serious party of Government - with the loss of the 'war' generation it will be interesting to see how this pans out under the new, young leader

It is the DUP who look like dinosaurs

[Tubby Isaacs]

I can also point out that Labour were doing okayish until the attempted coup by the PLP......why, in your simple view of the world, not say that is the main cause for the Labour situation as well?

The buck stops with the leader. If you can't stop your parliamentary party from voting 80-20 against you, you shouldn't be doing the job. It's unfathomable to the public that you carry on after that.

And drop this "coup" stuff. They basically went on strike. Stop trying to make people who thought Corbyn was going to lose them their seats sound like General Pinochet.

They tried to overthrow the leader over the heads of the people who elected him. Before reluctantly submitting to a challenge they knew they couldn't win, they spent weeks trying to force him to step down. If if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

That's a strike and a leadership challenge.

Corbyn supported annual leadership elections, before becoming leader. He supported Benn challenging Kinnock. Benn's score under the system of the time was less than a third of what Owen Smith got. Pointless vanity leadership challenges, anyone? See also his agitating v John Smith and Gordon Brown.

It was obvious at the time this serial disloyalty was going to be a problem.

[howsillyofme1]

The buck stops with the leader. If you can't stop your parliamentary party from voting 80-20 against you, you shouldn't be doing the job. It's unfathomable to the public that you carry on after that.

And drop this "coup" stuff. They basically went on strike. Stop trying to make people who thought Corbyn was going to lose them their seats sound like General Pinochet.

They tried to overthrow the leader over the heads of the people who elected him. Before reluctantly submitting to a challenge they knew they couldn't win, they spent weeks trying to force him to step down. If if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

That's a strike and a leadership challenge.

Corbyn supported annual leadership elections, before becoming leader. He supported Benn challenging Kinnock. Benn's score under the system of the time was less than a third of what Owen Smith got. Pointless vanity leadership challenges, anyone? See also his agitating v John Smith and Gordon Brown.

It was obvious at the time this serial disloyalty was going to be a problem.

Bloody hell...this is difficult

There was not a challenge for ages was there? There were attempts to force him to resign...don't you remember? And then an attempt to force him off the ballot - do you remember the court cases?

There was not a direct challenge as he would have won so there was a concerted attempt to force him from being able to stand.....which failed. The moment he was on the ballot the heart went out of the challengers.....they could only win by stopping him standing

We are not talking about the challenge of Smith but the crap that went on in the weeks before it! Don't you see the difference?

There was no problem someone challenging him, in fact it may happen again....Clive Lewis is being rumoured isn't he? Oh no he has come out quite clearly with his views on that



Stop reinventing history!