Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th March 2017

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 8:32 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:But what if the best way of safeguarding the union is actually holding another referendum - which then goes the same way as the last one?

If that happens, its not impossible that the SNP could tear itself apart - or at least lose significant support (as happened to the Nats in Quebec after 1995)

Its a risk, obviously - but so are the other "options" in their own way.

I think Scotland's going to be needed to fight off Hard Brexit. Without that, we're stuffed.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 8:48 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ing-swings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Western Australian election: Mark McGowan declares victory for Labor after record-breaking swings

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:01 pm

Finally found tribunal.stats-the barstewards moved them delibetately just to annoy me.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... ember-2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Going around in circles in you.gov not to be recommended)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:10 pm

A lawsuit alleging that Donald Trump and a real estate development firm misled investors, has been upheld by Canada's highest court.

Sarbjit Singh and Se Na Lee alleged they were sold units in Toronto's, Trump International Hotel, under false pretences.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 23566.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:12 pm

Dearie me, against my better judgement I went back to CiF to post on that grammar story.

Leafygarden
ToryFTW
RobinFrance

All the trolls still there plus a few new ones.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:12 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 24351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cutting chocolate bar sizes will lose companies money, YouGov study finds
Survey suggests 46% of shoppers would rather pay more than see their favourite food shrink

Food companies risk losing more than a third of their customers if they cut the size of their products, according to a new study into the impact of so-called “shrinkflation”.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:14 pm

And this utter unevidenced bollocks from John Bald.

and a great deal of the problem with comprehensive schools is that those in charge of them will do anything and everything to avoid scrutiny on the basis of academic standards,

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:15 pm

Mr Steel:

America finally has a leader who doesn't rely on 'evidence' to back up his 'claims' – how refreshing
For centuries the human race has been bogged down by red tape, such as the requirement to provide evidence whenever you accuse someone of a crime
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/don ... 21196.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:17 pm

We’re getting used to the new President now and starting to envy Americans. At least you know your leader is concentrating, when at two in the morning he puts messages on Twitter such as “Mexicans have been stealing my biscuits. Disgrace!!! Buy your own Digestives Pedro!!”

Or “Muslim terrorists blow up Tuesdays across Europe! Bad guys make weeks shorter!!! Must attack them with werewolves.”

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:18 pm

But now we don’t need to waste time like that, because evidence is politically correct twaddle.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:19 pm

@TC2

They've been shrinking for years,unless my mouth is getting bigger.

Titter ye not.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:20 pm

So by removing the need for facts, at a stroke the whole of America would be three times as clever.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:22 pm

Donaeld The Unready‏ @donaeldunready 5h5 hours ago
More
Folc saying we should FLOOD THE FENS, not drain. Good idea, would leave Twisty East Angian monks without Eleg to stand on. #floodthefens

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:30 pm

http://paullewismoney.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... -rise.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LOWEST EARNERS FACE BIGGEST NICs RISE

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:34 pm

http://linkis.com/po.st/99qzV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plymouth hotel at the centre of Tory election spending probe

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 9:59 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... on-osborne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Clegg, who had breakfast at the Ivy in London with Cameron last week, added: “The honest thing to do for Phil Hammond – and knowing him it is what I suspect he would like to do – is to dump on his predecessors and say Osborne and Cameron were wrong."

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 10:18 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 23441.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fake news website created to test Donald Trump supporters' gullibility - Reveals they will believe anything
James McDaniel's website claimed Barack Obama was plotting a coup from a secret bunker and Hillary Clinton was a child-sacrificing maniac. The site got more than one million views within two weeks, and hundreds of thousands of likes and shares

H. sapiens

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 10:18 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 24781.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government orders MPs to scrap Lords plan to let EU nationals stay in Britain
David Davis says he wants the Brexit Bill to pass with ‘no strings attached’

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 10:21 pm

Leaked Treasury report warns of painful 'economic shock' if Britain crashes out of the EU without a deal
Exclusive: Report on post-Brexit economy seen by The Independent outlines 'serious consequences' for businesses and citizens – including higher taxes and rising food prices
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 24706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theresa May’s “Plan B” if she fails to reach an exit deal with the EU would be “the alternative to membership with the most negative long-term impact”, according to an unpublished Treasury document leaked to The Independent. It warns that reverting to World Trade Organisation (WTO) tariffs would cause “a major economic shock to the UK, with serious consequences for companies, consumers, jobs and prices” – including a 2.9 per cent rise in food prices.

Post by **adam** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 10:22 pm

Following on from something I posted the other day...

Under pressure from tech companies, ‘Fair Repair’ bill stalls in Nebraska

Farmers wanted rights to service manuals to fix equipment faults, but opponents such as Apple said it would create safety, security and intellectual property risks

It's a good short article that manages to cover quite a few perpectives on the issue and is worth a read. I like the end...

Pro-repair advocates are now waiting for the bill to be discussed in other states in the coming months. Gordon-Byrne believes that without the lobbying clout of their opponents it’s going to be an uphill struggle.

“As much as people say lobbyists are professional shit talkers, it’s good to have one on your side.”

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 10:26 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... e-william/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Iceberg basement' plans for Kensington Palace to make extra space as William and Kate plan move back to London

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 10:27 pm

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-03-11/hous ... on-monday/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

House of Lords expected to pass Brexit Bill on Monday

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 11:17 pm

John McDonnell MP‏Verified account
@johnmcdonnellMP
4 hour delay on train & flights full, so sorry to miss @bbcquestiontime. Jinxed! Won't have this problem when we renationalise the railways.

I'm hoping that was a gag. He does have a sense of humour. But might be better to stick in a wink or something.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 11:20 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:And this utter unevidenced bollocks from John Bald.

and a great deal of the problem with comprehensive schools is that those in charge of them will do anything and everything to avoid scrutiny on the basis of academic standards,

What on earth does that mean? They cover up exam results?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 11:27 pm

UC successful appeals just under 50% apparently.Maybe not so simplified then.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 11:39 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... manifesto/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tory war over Budget 'shambles' as it emerges Cabinet was never briefed about manifesto breach

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 11 Mar, 2017 11:51 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:And this utter unevidenced bollocks from John Bald.

and a great deal of the problem with comprehensive schools is that those in charge of them will do anything and everything to avoid scrutiny on the basis of academic standards,

What on earth does that mean? They cover up exam results?

I have no idea and he never bothered to address it when I asked.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:44 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... may-budget" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bad blood begins to flow between the neighbours of Downing Street

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:45 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ax-reforms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If Theresa May gives in over self-employment row, she’s not serious about tax reform

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 5:34 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... manifesto/

Tory war over Budget 'shambles' as it emerges Cabinet was never briefed about manifesto breach

Philip Hammond’s hour-long briefing to Cabinet colleagues failed to mention that a tax rise on the self-employed clashed with a Tory election promise, it can be revealed.

Like these other manifesto breaches?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 31156.html

- 'We want to expand the Single Market, breaking down the remaining barriers to trade and ensuring that new sectors are opened up to British firms,' document said

- “We are clear about what we want from Europe. We say: yes to the Single Market.”

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 8:11 am

The irony to end them all...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

spiked watch‏
@spikedwatch

Following
More
Just so that you know, freedom of speech stalwarts @spikedonline, after they got us suspended, have blocked us.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 9:33 am

HindleA wrote:http://paullewismoney.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... -rise.html

LOWEST EARNERS FACE BIGGEST NICs RISE

All these Osborne decisions keep on rolling through. I must admit I wasn't previously aware of this impact of the abolition of class 2 nics.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 9:35 am

Oh dear. nicola is understandably delighted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 9:36 am

I see the MoS have the knives out for David Davis already...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 10:07 am

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... e-internet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tim Berners-Lee: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 10:11 am

I see all the media hype ("liberal" outfits like the Graun included) about Pauline Hanson was justified by the Western Australia result - not.

Anybody starting to see a pattern developing here?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 11:20 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... gle-market" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A group of 29 Labour MPs criticised their leader Jeremy Corbyn on Saturday for failing to take a stronger line on Brexit and demanded that he back continued full membership of the single market.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 11:29 am

Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... gle-market

A group of 29 Labour MPs criticised their leader Jeremy Corbyn on Saturday for failing to take a stronger line on Brexit and demanded that he back continued full membership of the single market.

I get the distinct feeling that an air of panic has descended upon all sides as the invocation of Article 50 becomes a reality.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 11:29 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Oh dear. nicola is understandably delighted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He seems completely unaware that constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster:

“If a referendum is held then it is absolutely fine, it should be held,” he said. “I don’t think it’s the job of Westminster or the Labour party to prevent people holding referenda.”

The SG could well hold an advisory referendum - which would not be legally binding - ie it would just be a big opinion poll, just like the EU referendum. We had a "once in a lifetime" legally binding referendum in 2014 and, to coin a phrase, "the will of the people" was to remain part of the UK. (And the result was more decisive than the EU vote).

Are we heading towards a state of "government by opinion poll"?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 11:30 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 11:32 am

I hope all is well in the yahyah household.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 11:36 am

Davis: MPs must choose between May's deal and crashing out of EU (Guardian)

Suppose they amount to more or less the same thing? Where will that leave us?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -out-of-eu

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 11:53 am

Eric_WLothian wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Oh dear. nicola is understandably delighted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He seems completely unaware that constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster:

“If a referendum is held then it is absolutely fine, it should be held,” he said. “I don’t think it’s the job of Westminster or the Labour party to prevent people holding referenda.”
The SG could well hold an advisory referendum - which would not be legally binding - ie it would just be a big opinion poll, just like the EU referendum. We had a "once in a lifetime" legally binding referendum in 2014 and, to coin a phrase, "the will of the people" was to remain part of the UK. (And the result was more decisive than the EU vote).

Are we heading towards a state of "government by opinion poll"?

Sorry, whatever the legal niceties this is a silly and utterly unconvincing line.

ALL SIDES sold the EU referendum as a binding decision. Being in denial about this does "remainiacs" no favours.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:14 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Oh dear. nicola is understandably delighted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He seems completely unaware that constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster:

“If a referendum is held then it is absolutely fine, it should be held,” he said. “I don’t think it’s the job of Westminster or the Labour party to prevent people holding referenda.”
The SG could well hold an advisory referendum - which would not be legally binding - ie it would just be a big opinion poll, just like the EU referendum. We had a "once in a lifetime" legally binding referendum in 2014 and, to coin a phrase, "the will of the people" was to remain part of the UK. (And the result was more decisive than the EU vote).

Are we heading towards a state of "government by opinion poll"?
Sorry, whatever the legal niceties this is a silly and utterly unconvincing line.

ALL SIDES sold the EU referendum as a binding decision. Being in denial about this does "remainiacs" no favours.

Ok, let's agree that both referenda were legally binding. So how can the 2014 independence referendum be set aside just 4 years later?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:20 pm

A good question.

I suppose an SNP argument might be that circumstances have changed with Brexit and so on?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:26 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote: He seems completely unaware that constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster:
The SG could well hold an advisory referendum - which would not be legally binding - ie it would just be a big opinion poll, just like the EU referendum. We had a "once in a lifetime" legally binding referendum in 2014 and, to coin a phrase, "the will of the people" was to remain part of the UK. (And the result was more decisive than the EU vote).

Are we heading towards a state of "government by opinion poll"?
Sorry, whatever the legal niceties this is a silly and utterly unconvincing line.

ALL SIDES sold the EU referendum as a binding decision. Being in denial about this does "remainiacs" no favours.
Ok, let's agree that both referenda were legally binding. So how can the 2014 independence referendum be set aside just 4 years later?

Legally quite easily if there is a repeat of the 2014 one - there is nothing that proscribes another referendum (whether Westminster would agree to a legally binding referendum that enforces the result automatically is another question and probably pretty unlikely)

Morally, the justification would be that there has been a significant material change in circumstances as the UK is leaving the EU and Scotland voted against that. I think this could be justifiably argued

Politically, if the SNP can get the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum despite the opinions of Westminster then a vote for leaving UK could be a tricky thing to manage. The SNP wouldn't mind muddying the waters and having a constitutional battle with a Tory Government

Labour is a busted flush in Scotland....thanks to a series of tactical mistakes and historical arrogance. The SNP call the shots - we all know their shortcomings but nothing has come home to roost yet

The 'once in a lifetime' tag means nothing in reality...just like 'advisory' didn't. If the SNP can manage to hold some sort of referendum and there is a good turn out then it will be interesting to see what happens

This is what happens when you let John McTernan anywhere near a political campaign

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:32 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Davis: MPs must choose between May's deal and crashing out of EU (Guardian)
Suppose they amount to more or less the same thing? Where will that leave us?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -out-of-eu

Does Theresa May, have a say over the wording of a final deal, before it's offered to parliament for approval, or is that purely up to the EU?
Would it be possible for a non-binary offer to be made, ie;
Option 1: new relationship, Option 2: stay as is, Option 3: Flounce.
Suppose It could be more complicated, with a choice of new relationships, but thinking behind question is, EU giving UK a choice which would allow parliament to to have meaningful vote, regardless of Government's wishes.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:37 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Davis: MPs must choose between May's deal and crashing out of EU (Guardian)
Suppose they amount to more or less the same thing? Where will that leave us?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -out-of-eu
Does Theresa May, have a say over the wording of a final deal, before it's offered to parliament for approval, or is that purely up to the EU?
Would it be possible for a non-binary offer to be made, ie;
Option 1: new relationship, Option 2: stay as is, Option 3: Flounce.
Suppose It could be more complicated, with a choice of new relationships, but thinking behind question is, EU giving UK a choice which would allow parliament to to have meaningful vote, regardless of Government's wishes.

I think this whole process shows how flawed UK Parliamentary democracy is with the FPTP system distorting the make up of Parliament, the appointment of peers allowing the Lords make-up to be manipulated and the Royal prerogative hovering maliciously in the background

UK democracy is essentially bust and a constitutional convention needs to be set up (Ed was always suggesting this) to come up with a model that could work for us all....it would be a long project but it will likely be there will be plenty of people available to work on it and the 'burning bridge' will clearly be visible

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Oh dear. nicola is understandably delighted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He seems completely unaware that constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster:

“If a referendum is held then it is absolutely fine, it should be held,” he said. “I don’t think it’s the job of Westminster or the Labour party to prevent people holding referenda.”
The SG could well hold an advisory referendum - which would not be legally binding - ie it would just be a big opinion poll, just like the EU referendum. We had a "once in a lifetime" legally binding referendum in 2014 and, to coin a phrase, "the will of the people" was to remain part of the UK. (And the result was more decisive than the EU vote).

Are we heading towards a state of "government by opinion poll"?
Sorry, whatever the legal niceties this is a silly and utterly unconvincing line.

ALL SIDES sold the EU referendum as a binding decision. Being in denial about this does "remainiacs" no favours.

The fact that all the parties misled the public over the nature of the referendum doesn't make it any more legally binding. The salient point is that if Cameron had attempted to take a legally binding referendum on such a big issue through parliament it would have required considerably more scrutiny and debate and firm plans for how a leave vote would be taken forward than we have had either before or, indeed, after the vote.

The fact that the whole of parliament, rather than just the Tories, shafted remain voters over the nature and delivery of the referendum bill doesn't help Labour's case. It's not 'denial' to recognise that remain voters have been seriously let down by those parties that professed to represent their views but failed to stick to their 2015 manifesto promises to only support an EU referendum in the event of more powers being transferred to Brussels.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 12:39 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:A good question.

I suppose an SNP argument might be that circumstances have changed with Brexit and so on?

Of course the SNP thrive on a culture of grievance (and perceived grievance) and will use any excuse for another try for independence. I can agree with them that circumstances have changed (for the worse) with Brexit - but their demands for a separate deal for Scotland are as unworkable (imo) as an independent Scotland.