Monday 13 March 2017

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:17 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:This isn't a good look. Rushing the bill through the Lords tonight. Furtive.

I know, exactly.
Alarming

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:26 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:The Real Fight Starts Now!

The cowardice of the opposition is shaming.

They know this is wrong, but still they vote for it.

You don't know what you're doing! (As we sing at refs).

Craven cowards. I am so angry at our political parties. All those who have just voted for this have disgraced themselves. I won't treat any of them seriously ever again, and will never, ever vote for a party that has backed this Hard Brexit.

Shameful. Shaming.

What a load of nonsense!

What is the point of ping pong? The Lords have to capitulate now as there is no way MPs will be changing their minds

Labour I think you will find voted for the amendments.......

One party to blame for this...the Tories but....... your first line is aimed at 'the Opposition' who do not command a majority

The battle on A50 is lost....the new battle starts from now!
The Fight Starts Now!

Arf.

And how was it supposed to progress when no Tories are rebelling?

What else is Labour supposed to do when that is the case?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:29 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: Not vote for triggering art 50 perhaps?

What a load of nonsense!

What is the point of ping pong? The Lords have to capitulate now as there is no way MPs will be changing their minds

Labour I think you will find voted for the amendments.......

One party to blame for this...the Tories but....... your first line is aimed at 'the Opposition' who do not command a majority

The battle on A50 is lost....the new battle starts from now!
The Fight Starts Now!

Arf.

And how was it supposed to progress when no Tories are rebelling?

What else is Labour supposed to do when that is the case?

Not vote for triggering art 50?

Not support Hard Brexit?

Provide an opposition?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:31 pm

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:38 pm

Bloody hell. The ex-Hammersmith and Fulham Tory who gained my hometown at the last election rebelled on the EU nationals.

The seat was 56% Remain. He's got a big majority, but he might be feeling some heat. Could be a potential soft Brexiter?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:40 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/science/sho ... tually-are" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A study has found that 98% of people think they’re among the nicest 50%. And this delusion seeps into everything from how we rate our attractiveness to our driving

I'm pretty nice.
FACT

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:41 pm

from the Donaeld:

Donaeld The Unready‏ @donaeldunready Mar 5
More
Hater monks say I'm sexist but what about them? Only sing hymns. Why no hers? Get your own monastic house in order first Twisty monks! #mmga

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:47 pm

I believe that measures such as a new royal yacht, it is one of a number of measures that I am sure this government will be able to consider.

It is my view that it would indeed add greatly to the soft power of this country, a soft power which is already very considerable.

The new Britannia should not be a call on the taxpayer. If it can be done privately I am sure it would attract overwhelming support.

I'm sure they thought of this last time, but it didn't get anywhere. Does the Queen even want it? Does anybody?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:47 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: The Fight Starts Now!

Arf.

And how was it supposed to progress when no Tories are rebelling?

What else is Labour supposed to do when that is the case?
Not vote for triggering art 50?

Not support Hard Brexit?

Provide an opposition?

The right decision based on the referendum result

They haven't

They have

The fault lies with Tories....you never seem to criticise them though do you?

and on tonight

Referendum votes to leave

HoC reject (good) amendments twice

The unelected HoL should not continue to send it back to the HoC - the result will only go one way.

To get any concessions Tories have to vote against their Government - it is as simple as that. Tonight less voted than last time and were outnumbered by Labour MPs voting the other way

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:55 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
And how was it supposed to progress when no Tories are rebelling?

What else is Labour supposed to do when that is the case?
Not vote for triggering art 50?

Not support Hard Brexit?

Provide an opposition?

The right decision based on the referendum result

They haven't

They have

The fault lies with Tories....you never seem to criticise them though do you?

and on tonight

Referendum votes to leave

HoC reject (good) amendments twice

The unelected HoL should not continue to send it back to the HoC - the result will only go one way.

To get any concessions Tories have to vote against their Government - it is as simple as that. Tonight less voted than last time and were outnumbered by Labour MPs voting the other way

Aren't we on the left supposed to be, you know, the Good Guys?

Labour hasn't opposed Hard Brexit. There has been no attempt to stay in the Single Market. It has been pitiful.

So, I'll vote Green because they did oppose.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:00 pm

YorkerBouncer 9h ago
Guardian Pick
Remember when the Tories used to bang on about "Broken Britain" because a few hoodies went around swearing in the streets?

Well kudos to them for showing how you actually break a country.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:00 pm

well you are not of any 'left' that I recognise

I believe in democracy not matter how flawed

Your view on what people think and what they want is usually flawed and, as I see you as being a troll, based on misrepresentation and mendacity

You are no more a Green than Nigel Farage is - are you in favour of Scottish Independence by the way?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:01 pm

Seven local council byelections last week:

Rutland - Tory hold in a normally safe ward, beating the LibDems by nearly 2 to 1 and going up by over six points to almost 60%. In 2003 a Tory was elected unopposed here, and they easily saw off a lone UKIP candidate in 2007 and a sole LibDem in 2011 before GE day saw electors get a bit more choice, even if the Tories still won easily. LibDems took advantage of there being no Independent now compared to 2015 to secure a double figure increase, whilst the UKIP drop of 5% closely matched the Tory rise.

East Hertfordshire DC - Tory hold with nearly half the vote, an increase of 8 points since 2015. Tories have returned three councillors here at every regular election since 2003, but from 2007 onwards Independents were competitive and they took a seat from the Tories in a previous 2013 by-election only to lose it again by a significant margin on GE day. This time round Indies sat it out and this seems to have boosted the Tories whereas Labour were down slightly - though the intervention of the LibDems, who took over 15% in their first showing here since 2003 and finished only narrowly behind in third, probably was not to their benefit. Greens not far behind again in 4th (though still down on 2 years ago) whilst UKIP's first contest at this level returned a fairly modest 5%.

Stratford on Avon DC - Tory hold, though they dropped by around 10% and there was a significant swing to the LibDems who rose from 4th and last in 2015 (the first elections here since sweeping boundary changes, this becoming one of a handful of authorities comprised solely of single member wards - this area has been safely Tory for a long time, though) to second with nearly 30 per cent, 20 points up since then. UKIP dropped from 2nd last time to 3rd now and were down by 5 points - whilst the Greens scored over 6% in last place, they may have been helped by the absence of Labour this time round.

West Oxfordshire DC - LibDem gain from Tory on a big swing, this ward has traditionally been very safe for the Tories (they were unopposed in 2008) but that changed a year ago when an Independent ran them a close second. They did not stand this time, but their support seems to have migrated to the yellow team - a 34 point increase into the mid 40s saw them narrowly beat the Tories even though the latter managed a small increase themselves since last May. Labour support nearly halved, Greens also down, UKIP last with just 3% in their first showing here.

Broxbourne DC - Tory gain from Labour by just four votes, in a ward which has seen close contests between the big two ever since the 2012 post boundary change elections which saw 3 Labour councillors elected but fairly narrowly in a straight fight (the previous ward was similar but a bit pro-Labour, but the Tories could still win it in a good year - it was, and remains, a polarised area on the edge of Gtr London where swings have historically been relatively low) In 2014 and 2015 UKIP polled fairly well here, but they sat out last year (another Lab/Tory battle with no other candidates) and the pro-Tory swing since then was a bit over 5%. UKIP polling less well than previously (about half the 2014 share) with the LibDems last with a bit over 5% in their first recent showing.

Derby - Tory gain from UKIP, in a ward which was once strongly pro-Labour - though the Tories could get close in good years like 2003 and 2008 - before its politics went slightly potty in recent years. Firstly, and rather bizarrely, the LibDems challenged quite strongly (in defiance of the national picture then) in 2012 and were then a close 3rd in 2014 as UKIP pipped Labour to win. In 2015 Labour won, but it was the turn of the Tories to emerge from nowhere to challenge - and last year they beat Labour by just 2 votes (to increase the confusion that bit further, their candidate was the same person who had narrowly missed out for the LibDems a couple of years earlier) One reason for this shock result was the growing unpopularity of the Labour run council here which has been caught up in several controversies - their results across the borough were notably lacklustre and the Tories even narrowly "won" Derby in the simultaneous Derbyshire PCC elections, a massive swing since 2012 and totally unexpected. Given the more widespread malaise now affecting Labour, it might not be a massive surprise that this time they increased their tiny margin last May to something a bit more comfortable with a swing of around 4% - UKIP not far behind with a quarter of the vote and only a small decrease since last year. LibDems last with 9% - a modest increase but some way from their recent highs here.

Harrow - Labour hold with a ten point increase to over 60% of the vote - they have safely returned three councillors here in each election since 2002, though in 2014 there was a significant vote for an "Independent Labour Group" slate (formed by a breakaway faction within the ruling Labour party) who only narrowly placed behind the Tories in 3rd; however, they failed to win any seats in that election and seem to have pretty much vanished since. Tories almost unchanged from last time, LibDems - who were once able to win seats here until a catastrophic (and infamous) nominations failure for the 1998 elections saw them lose nearly all their seats in the borough, something from which they have never really recovered - also little changed in 3rd. UKIP, whose candidate is a locally notorious serial defector, last with 6% in their initial outing here.

Four contests this week.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:03 pm

Dominic Grieve, the former Attorney General, said that trying to stop Parliament from having a vote on leaving the EU without a deal would be "deranged".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... um-demand/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:05 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:well you are not of any 'left' that I recognise

I believe in democracy not matter how flawed

Your view on what people think and what they want is usually flawed and, as I see you as being a troll, based on misrepresentation and mendacity

You are no more a Green than Nigel Farage is - are you in favour of Scottish Independence by the way?

No, I loathe sectionalism. I do know the Greens are not great on that. But, for me Brexit is the overwhelmingly important political issue of our era. For me the choice is now easy

1. I can't vote for a party led by the former Chair of the Stop the War Coalition (sic).

2. I want to vote for a party that consistently opposes Brexit.

That means the Greens.

As for "the fight starts now"

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... lly-2017-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:10 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I believe that measures such as a new royal yacht, it is one of a number of measures that I am sure this government will be able to consider.

It is my view that it would indeed add greatly to the soft power of this country, a soft power which is already very considerable.

The new Britannia should not be a call on the taxpayer. If it can be done privately I am sure it would attract overwhelming support.
I'm sure they thought of this last time, but it didn't get anywhere. Does the Queen even want it? Does anybody?

I'm sure that if the Queen's nostalgic about a yacht she could afford the £15.50 to go back on board Britannia. (Actually, she'd only pay £13.75 if she remembers to bring her bus pass as proof of age).
No chance of a cruise up the Forth though, her propellers have been removed. (from the yacht, that is, not the Queen).

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:13 pm

I've only just learned that Britannia even still exists.

I thought it had gone off with the Fighting Temeraire.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:16 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I've only just learned that Britannia even still exists.

I thought it had gone off with the Fighting Temeraire.

No - making a bob or two in Edinburgh:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:18 pm

Thanks AK.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:19 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I've only just learned that Britannia even still exists.

I thought it had gone off with the Fighting Temeraire.
No - making a bob or two in Edinburgh:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Where's England's share of the money?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:21 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:well you are not of any 'left' that I recognise

I believe in democracy not matter how flawed

Your view on what people think and what they want is usually flawed and, as I see you as being a troll, based on misrepresentation and mendacity

You are no more a Green than Nigel Farage is - are you in favour of Scottish Independence by the way?

No, I loathe sectionalism. I do know the Greens are not great on that. But, for me Brexit is the overwhelmingly important political issue of our era. For me the choice is now easy

1. I can't vote for a party led by the former Chair of the Stop the War Coalition (sic).

2. I want to vote for a party that consistently opposes Brexit.

That means the Greens.

As for "the fight starts now"

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... lly-2017-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well your last link was a bit pathetic because if he had gone and not voted you would have criticised him for that

You can choose who or not to vote for - I don't happen to believe you have ever voted for Labour at any point in your life anyway

The Greens have one MP so it is easy for them to be consistent - as for the LD (although even they struggle at times to get everyone to vote).

I am sure the Greens will be happy to have you......

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:23 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I've only just learned that Britannia even still exists.

I thought it had gone off with the Fighting Temeraire.
No - making a bob or two in Edinburgh:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/
Where's England's share of the money?

Where's Scotland's share of the cash from HMS Belfast?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:38 pm

"But the people had spoken and it was far more important that the result of the referendum was respected than for parliament to have a say in anything that might delay Britain’s exit from the EU. Even if that delay was in the national interest. It was one of those unfortunate cases where the national interest was not necessarily in the national interest."

- John Crace

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ating-them" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:40 pm

HindleA wrote:Thanks AK.

Thank you, AK.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:45 pm

HindleA wrote:Thanks AK.

Exactly what I was going to say!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:48 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:well you are not of any 'left' that I recognise

I believe in democracy not matter how flawed

Your view on what people think and what they want is usually flawed and, as I see you as being a troll, based on misrepresentation and mendacity

You are no more a Green than Nigel Farage is - are you in favour of Scottish Independence by the way?

No, I loathe sectionalism. I do know the Greens are not great on that. But, for me Brexit is the overwhelmingly important political issue of our era. For me the choice is now easy

1. I can't vote for a party led by the former Chair of the Stop the War Coalition (sic).

2. I want to vote for a party that consistently opposes Brexit.

That means the Greens.

As for "the fight starts now"

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... lly-2017-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well your last link was a bit pathetic because if he had gone and not voted you would have criticised him for that

You can choose who or not to vote for - I don't happen to believe you have ever voted for Labour at any point in your life anyway

The Greens have one MP so it is easy for them to be consistent - as for the LD (although even they struggle at times to get everyone to vote).

I am sure the Greens will be happy to have you......

Funny that McDonnell and Abbott managed it. Perhaps they are fleeter of foot?

I have voted Labour all my life, campaigned in three general elections, and was a member for decades. I didnt vote Labour in 2005 because of Iraq. I have been spat in the face out campaigning for Labour, and threatened with violence.

"Liar, troll".

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:55 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
No, I loathe sectionalism. I do know the Greens are not great on that. But, for me Brexit is the overwhelmingly important political issue of our era. For me the choice is now easy

1. I can't vote for a party led by the former Chair of the Stop the War Coalition (sic).

2. I want to vote for a party that consistently opposes Brexit.

That means the Greens.

As for "the fight starts now"

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... lly-2017-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well your last link was a bit pathetic because if he had gone and not voted you would have criticised him for that

You can choose who or not to vote for - I don't happen to believe you have ever voted for Labour at any point in your life anyway

The Greens have one MP so it is easy for them to be consistent - as for the LD (although even they struggle at times to get everyone to vote).

I am sure the Greens will be happy to have you......
Funny that McDonnell and Abbott managed it. Perhaps they are fleeter of foot?

I have voted Labour all my life, campaigned in three general elections, and was a member for decades. I didnt vote Labour in 2005 because of Iraq. I have been spat in the face out campaigning for Labour, and threatened with violence.

"Liar, troll".

words are easy....I do not believe you....I see no indication you have ever been from the left

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:03 pm

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/b ... -1-4391397" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sinn Fein demands referendum on Irish reunification

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:04 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
words are easy....I do not believe you....I see no indication you have ever been from the left

Clearly. I think that shows a narrowness of mind fairly common on the left. So sure are you of your own righteousness, that disagreement doesn't register. It is just noise, or worse dishonesty.

If people aren't voting for Corbyn it can't be because of legitimate rational disagreement but BBC bias, Blairites under the bed or something.

We've been down this path before. This time I don't think there will be any going back for Labour.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:04 pm

David Davis promised safety for millions of EU nationals living/working in the UK as a Tory government minister today in the House. David Davis gave his word EU nationals in the UK would be okay. Does Davis understand he's not on stage but making decisions involving real lives of people?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:04 pm

I want a referendum on what day to have referenda.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:05 pm

HindleA wrote:I want a referendum on what day to have referenda.

What day?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:06 pm

Friundays

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:07 pm

September 31st

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:12 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
words are easy....I do not believe you....I see no indication you have ever been from the left
Clearly. I think that shows a narrowness of mind fairly common on the left. So sure are you of your own righteousness, that disagreement doesn't register. It is just noise, or worse dishonesty.

If people aren't voting for Corbyn it can't be because of legitimate rational disagreement but BBC bias, Blairites under the bed or something.

We've been down this path before. This time I don't think there will be any going back for Labour.

No, I have many friends who disagree with me from all political persuasions and do not consider myself narrow-minded

I maintain my point that you never seem to support anything that I would consider being from the left, being to me a fairly typical Tory

Nothing wrong with that, I know plenty of Tories, but they are open about it and don't pretend to be something they are not - just like your attempt to portray yourself, laughably, as a Green

And you comment about Corbyn is baffling as well as ridiculous

Post by **adam** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:13 pm

Referenday

Post by **adam** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:18 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Dominic Grieve, the former Attorney General, said that trying to stop Parliament from having a vote on leaving the EU without a deal would be "deranged".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... um-demand/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And then he voted with the government twice.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:19 pm

adam wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
Dominic Grieve, the former Attorney General, said that trying to stop Parliament from having a vote on leaving the EU without a deal would be "deranged".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... um-demand/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And then he voted with the government twice.

and herein lies the problem!

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:23 pm

HindleA wrote:I want a referendum on what day to have referenda.

There's a warning about too many referenda in a film from the 70s "The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer":

But the film's last really good idea has Rimmer, now Prime Minister, inundating the electorate with referendums on every conceivable issue in order to stoke up resentment and protest at the very idea of participative democracy, which he hopes will lead to him installing himself as President/dictator by popular mandate:

http://www.british60scinema.net/unsung- ... el-rimmer/

Well worth watching if you can find a copy! (and a magnificent cast).

Post by **adam** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:24 pm

adam wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
Dominic Grieve, the former Attorney General, said that trying to stop Parliament from having a vote on leaving the EU without a deal would be "deranged".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... um-demand/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And then he voted with the government twice.

There's a guardian story about it saying he abstained, but the division results data page says he voted with the government on both motions in the commons.

Post by **adam** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:26 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
HindleA wrote:I want a referendum on what day to have referenda.
There's a warning about too many referenda in a film from the 70s "The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer":

But the film's last really good idea has Rimmer, now Prime Minister, inundating the electorate with referendums on every conceivable issue in order to stoke up resentment and protest at the very idea of participative democracy, which he hopes will lead to him installing himself as President/dictator by popular mandate:
http://www.british60scinema.net/unsung- ... el-rimmer/

Well worth watching if you can find a copy! (and a magnificent cast).

[youtube]QArRsTTQFcs[/youtube]

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:41 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
words are easy....I do not believe you....I see no indication you have ever been from the left
Clearly. I think that shows a narrowness of mind fairly common on the left. So sure are you of your own righteousness, that disagreement doesn't register. It is just noise, or worse dishonesty.

If people aren't voting for Corbyn it can't be because of legitimate rational disagreement but BBC bias, Blairites under the bed or something.

We've been down this path before. This time I don't think there will be any going back for Labour.

No, I have many friends who disagree with me from all political persuasions and do not consider myself narrow-minded

I maintain my point that you never seem to support anything that I would consider being from the left, being to me a fairly typical Tory

Nothing wrong with that, I know plenty of Tories, but they are open about it and don't pretend to be something they are not - just like your attempt to portray yourself, laughably, as a Green

And you comment about Corbyn is baffling as well as ridiculous

Comprehensive education? The NHS? Human Rights? The EU? Using fiscal policy to escape the zlb. On here I've repeatedly said what a disgrace the destruction of local government and the criminal justice system are. I can give you details on how appalling the cuts for the poorest in terms of benefits are if you like. Employment rights have already gone because of cuts to funding, not through taking them off the books.

I am, I think, a fairly typical "Blairite", although as it happens I marched against the Iraq war and voted Lib Dem because of it.

I am not a Corbynite. I am not voting for an apologist for Putin and the IRA. If that excludes me from the left, so be it.

It is because I don't want the Tories to win that I am so disgusted by those who self-righteously have facilitated their being in power. I am amazed Corbyn didn't show for the demo. Where he is happiest I'd have thought.

You're making it too easy for yourself.

"Liar, troll"

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:46 pm

The people I feel somewhat sorry for are those of Gibraltar - forced to leave the EU despite an almost unanimous vote to remain in a Referendum called by a PM not one of them could vote for!

At least the people of the UK voted in a party which said they would call a referendum if they won. Although of course they've tried to forget the bit that said they'd stay in the Single market...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:52 pm

Thanks Eric & Adam

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:53 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:The people I feel somewhat sorry for are those of Gibraltar - forced to leave the EU despite an almost unanimous vote to remain in a Referendum called by a PM not one of them could vote for!

At least the people of the UK voted in a party which said they would call a referendum if they won. Although of course they've tried to forget the bit that said they'd stay in the Single market...

It's this fact and more giving me a bad feeling about Tory government 'will of the people'

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 10:55 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:The people I feel somewhat sorry for are those of Gibraltar - forced to leave the EU despite an almost unanimous vote to remain in a Referendum called by a PM not one of them could vote for!

At least the people of the UK voted in a party which said they would call a referendum if they won. Although of course they've tried to forget the bit that said they'd stay in the Single market...

See also all the expats in the EU. IDS mentioned his sister in Italy tonight. He didn't think enough about people like her to get them a vote in the referendum.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 11:05 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:The people I feel somewhat sorry for are those of Gibraltar - forced to leave the EU despite an almost unanimous vote to remain in a Referendum called by a PM not one of them could vote for!

At least the people of the UK voted in a party which said they would call a referendum if they won. Although of course they've tried to forget the bit that said they'd stay in the Single market...
See also all the expats in the EU. IDS mentioned his sister in Italy tonight. He didn't think enough about people like her to get them a vote in the referendum.

I voted in the referendum....identical rules to UK Parliament - 15 years and less can vote

(I think for constitutional issues like this then it should be no limit and based on citizenship - for national GE I would say 5 years out of the country is reasonable as a limit)

EU citizens in UK with residence of > 5 years should have been able to vote but that is on the assumption the the UK can show who they are, and they can't - which I think is one of the reasons they were so keen on preventing this amendment going through - there are no means to identify who it applies to

On the continent they normally can quite easily - the difficulty here is that each Government decides on their own non EU immigration policy so there is no 'EU' approach to this.

I think this difficulty will become really apparent early on and this is supposed to be one of the 'low hanging fruit'

Thank you for the 'like' Tubby

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 11:22 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:The people I feel somewhat sorry for are those of Gibraltar - forced to leave the EU despite an almost unanimous vote to remain in a Referendum called by a PM not one of them could vote for!

At least the people of the UK voted in a party which said they would call a referendum if they won. Although of course they've tried to forget the bit that said they'd stay in the Single market...
See also all the expats in the EU. IDS mentioned his sister in Italy tonight. He didn't think enough about people like her to get them a vote in the referendum.

I voted in the referendum....identical rules to UK Parliament - 15 years and less can vote

(I think for constitutional issues like this then it should be no limit and based on citizenship - for national GE I would say 5 years out of the country is reasonable as a limit)

EU citizens in UK with residence of > 5 years should have been able to vote but that is on the assumption the the UK can show who they are, and they can't - which I think is one of the reasons they were so keen on preventing this amendment going through - there are no means to identify who it applies to

On the continent they normally can quite easily - the difficulty here is that each Government decides on their own non EU immigration policy so there is no 'EU' approach to this.

I think this difficulty will become really apparent early on and this is supposed to be one of the 'low hanging fruit'

Thank you for the 'like' Tubby

In saying that, there could be a case for an MP(s) representing citizens abroad like they have in France. That would be explicit and this MP may be permitted to speak but have no, or limited, voting rights.

I would not be comfortable with those who pay no taxation in the UK having voting representation but having a voice would be useful.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 11:26 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:The people I feel somewhat sorry for are those of Gibraltar - forced to leave the EU despite an almost unanimous vote to remain in a Referendum called by a PM not one of them could vote for!

At least the people of the UK voted in a party which said they would call a referendum if they won. Although of course they've tried to forget the bit that said they'd stay in the Single market...
See also all the expats in the EU. IDS mentioned his sister in Italy tonight. He didn't think enough about people like her to get them a vote in the referendum.

I voted in the referendum....identical rules to UK Parliament - 15 years and less can vote

(I think for constitutional issues like this then it should be no limit and based on citizenship - for national GE I would say 5 years out of the country is reasonable as a limit)

EU citizens in UK with residence of > 5 years should have been able to vote but that is on the assumption the the UK can show who they are, and they can't - which I think is one of the reasons they were so keen on preventing this amendment going through - there are no means to identify who it applies to

On the continent they normally can quite easily - the difficulty here is that each Government decides on their own non EU immigration policy so there is no 'EU' approach to this.

I think this difficulty will become really apparent early on and this is supposed to be one of the 'low hanging fruit'

Thank you for the 'like' Tubby

Cheers.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 11:28 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA