Monday 13 March 2017

Post by **adam** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 3:45 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Sturgeon has no choice politically. She can't wait until post-hard Brexit to make her move.

It is possible the Nats will win. Two factors have shifted

1. The EU. Scotland would be offered fast track membership IMO. The choice is now staying in the EU or staying in the UK. If I were Scottish I'd still vote for the latter out of self interest, but the balance has shifted.

2. The collapse of Labour. Back in 2014 there was the fairly strong prospect of Lab/SNP government. Now Tory government looks set as far as the eye can see.

The oil price makes the SNP's economic programme even more implausible, but who knows?

William Hills make it odds on Scotland votes for independence

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... nd-of-2024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making it even more certain that Tory rule down south is more or less permanent.

Things might be different for all sorts of reasons from here on, but historically when Labour win General Elections they almost always win in England. All of Blair's wins would still been won without Scotland. 'Labour can't win without Scotland' is, historically, an urban myth.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 3:50 pm

adam wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Sturgeon has no choice politically. She can't wait until post-hard Brexit to make her move.

It is possible the Nats will win. Two factors have shifted

1. The EU. Scotland would be offered fast track membership IMO. The choice is now staying in the EU or staying in the UK. If I were Scottish I'd still vote for the latter out of self interest, but the balance has shifted.

2. The collapse of Labour. Back in 2014 there was the fairly strong prospect of Lab/SNP government. Now Tory government looks set as far as the eye can see.

The oil price makes the SNP's economic programme even more implausible, but who knows?

William Hills make it odds on Scotland votes for independence

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... nd-of-2024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making it even more certain that Tory rule down south is more or less permanent.
Things might be different for all sorts of reasons from here on, but historically when Labour win General Elections they almost always win in England. All of Blair's wins would still been won without Scotland. 'Labour can't win without Scotland' is, historically, an urban myth.

We are nowhere near that world any longer.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 3:55 pm

From the Guardian Live Blog, about five minutes ago

MPs debate Lords amendments to article 50 bill

MPs are about to start debating the article 50 bill, which has returned to the House of Commons from the Lords with two amendments inserted.

One would oblige the government to guarantee EU nationals living in the UK their right to stay now, and the other would give parliament a veto over the outcome of the Brexit talks.

The government is opposed to both, and the government is expected to vote both down after the two-hour debate.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's four o'clock in the afternoon! It's time for tea, biscuits and light chat.
Barbaric

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 3:56 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
pk1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Don't take that too seriously. They're deal makers.
It's the same as the SNP were told in 2014.
They were pealing off the side of another member state, like Catalonia would try to do. Not the case now.

Spain isn't leaving.

Irrelevant whether the UK is still in the EU or not.

The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.

Seems fairly clear that EU treaties are applicable only to the UK (until Brexit). Whether or not Scotland were to become independent before or after Brexit, it would have to join the queue.

http://www.parliament.scot/S4_Europeana ... 4__pdf.pdf

Sorry about the formatting - bloody EU documents, messing up our forums.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 3:58 pm

Wagner
I read SpinningHugo's posts
Valkyrie sounds in my head

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:09 pm

Scotland doesn't really matter at all to the EU. It won't be vetoed, but it's not going to be anything like a priority.

What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK. That need not be cliff edge Brexit. It could involve some kind of transitional deal, with the UK being weakened over time by losing its rights to shape the legislation- and of course another cliff edge coming.

So Sturgeon could have seriously jumped the gun here. There might not be anything like the Brexit shot she expects by the time referendum is held. Losing £10bn from the UK though, that would be much more terrifying.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:28 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Scotland doesn't really matter at all to the EU. It won't be vetoed, but it's not going to be anything like a priority.

What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK. That need not be cliff edge Brexit. It could involve some kind of transitional deal, with the UK being weakened over time by losing its rights to shape the legislation- and of course another cliff edge coming.

So Sturgeon could have seriously jumped the gun here. There might not be anything like the Brexit shot she expects by the time referendum is held. Losing £10bn from the UK though, that would be much more terrifying.

I think we're experiencing an Article 50 'Brexit' crescendo
Of course today is the day Sturgeon announces another referendum for an independent (or not) Scotland

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:31 pm

Sam Coates has some interesting posts regarding scotref2.

Remember when 2015 seemed like a terrible year? 2017,18,19 aren't looking great.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Scotland doesn't really matter at all to the EU. It won't be vetoed, but it's not going to be anything like a priority.

What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK. That need not be cliff edge Brexit. It could involve some kind of transitional deal, with the UK being weakened over time by losing its rights to shape the legislation- and of course another cliff edge coming.

So Sturgeon could have seriously jumped the gun here. There might not be anything like the Brexit shot she expects by the time referendum is held. Losing £10bn from the UK though, that would be much more terrifying.

I agree that Scotland is largely irrelevant to the EU - apart from anything else, without a national bank we wouldn't qualify for membership. Also, I haven't heard any SNP answers to the questions raised prior to 2014 (Currency, border with the UK, cost of setting up a new state etc etc), so why would anybody who voted 'no' change their minds?

I would rephrase the first sentence of your second paragraph. Not so much "What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK", more "What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result for the EU".

Throughout the Brexit nonsense, politicians appear to have been assuming that we will get pretty much the deal we want. We won't - we'll get the deal that 27 other countries feel won't be detrimental to themselves. Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Red White and Blue Brexit - the EU will decide. The UK really doesn't have a strong negotiating position.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:41 pm

http://z2k.org/2017/03/targeted-afforda ... -fig-leaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Targeted Affordability Fund proves to be little more than a fig leaf

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:42 pm

http://www.debbieabrahams.org.uk/2017/d ... ople-again" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Debbie urges people to fight against new Government regulations hitting disabled people – again

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:45 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Scotland doesn't really matter at all to the EU. It won't be vetoed, but it's not going to be anything like a priority.

What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK. That need not be cliff edge Brexit. It could involve some kind of transitional deal, with the UK being weakened over time by losing its rights to shape the legislation- and of course another cliff edge coming.

So Sturgeon could have seriously jumped the gun here. There might not be anything like the Brexit shot she expects by the time referendum is held. Losing £10bn from the UK though, that would be much more terrifying.
I think we're experiencing an Article 50 'Brexit' crescendo
Of course today is the day Sturgeon announces another referendum for an independent (or not) Scotland

Call me a cynic, but I think the more important date for Sturgeon is not A50 day but SNP conference days - 17/18 March. She needs to throw some red meat to the party faithful.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:46 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote: Irrelevant whether the UK is still in the EU or not.

The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.
Seems fairly clear that EU treaties are applicable only to the UK (until Brexit). Whether or not Scotland were to become independent before or after Brexit, it would have to join the queue.

http://www.parliament.scot/S4_Europeana ... 4__pdf.pdf

Sorry about the formatting - bloody EU documents, messing up our forums.

They basically had to rethink all the law (with mixed results) when the Euro crisis happened. They'll bodge up a deal on Scotland joining easily enough.

Juncker's the deal man.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:47 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Scotland doesn't really matter at all to the EU. It won't be vetoed, but it's not going to be anything like a priority.

What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK. That need not be cliff edge Brexit. It could involve some kind of transitional deal, with the UK being weakened over time by losing its rights to shape the legislation- and of course another cliff edge coming.

So Sturgeon could have seriously jumped the gun here. There might not be anything like the Brexit shot she expects by the time referendum is held. Losing £10bn from the UK though, that would be much more terrifying.
I think we're experiencing an Article 50 'Brexit' crescendo
Of course today is the day Sturgeon announces another referendum for an independent (or not) Scotland
Call me a cynic, but I think the more important date for Sturgeon is not A50 day but SNP conference days - 17/18 March. She needs to throw some red meat to the party faithful.

Ah, that makes sense

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:48 pm

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/fe ... -so-can-we" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the United States can decriminalise abortion, so can we

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:50 pm

Guildford UTC becomes latest university technical college project to be abandoned

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... project-be

Two years ago, Lord Nash said the proposed Guildford UTC would “provide Surrey with generations of skilled cyber-security, engineering and computer-science experts. It is a perfect example of how we are placing technical education on a par with academic learning, while helping our thriving economy to flourish”.

However, in a message on the proposed UTC’s website, its trustees said: “It is with regret that we post this message to inform you of the cancellation of the project to open a university technical college in Guildford. Unfortunately, the Department for Education is no longer supportive of the project and has decided not to proceed further with it.

RIP UTCs - you might have been a good idea in theory but

(i) sticking a 14-19 idea in an 11-19 system simply isn't viable and
(ii) oversight wasn't anywhere near good enough.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:52 pm

http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europ ... ntial-race" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will Marine Le Pen's "fake jobs" scandal blow her chances in the French presidential race?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:52 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Scotland doesn't really matter at all to the EU. It won't be vetoed, but it's not going to be anything like a priority.

What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK. That need not be cliff edge Brexit. It could involve some kind of transitional deal, with the UK being weakened over time by losing its rights to shape the legislation- and of course another cliff edge coming.

So Sturgeon could have seriously jumped the gun here. There might not be anything like the Brexit shot she expects by the time referendum is held. Losing £10bn from the UK though, that would be much more terrifying.
I agree that Scotland is largely irrelevant to the EU - apart from anything else, without a national bank we wouldn't qualify for membership. Also, I haven't heard any SNP answers to the questions raised prior to 2014 (Currency, border with the UK, cost of setting up a new state etc etc), so why would anybody who voted 'no' change their minds?

I would rephrase the first sentence of your second paragraph. Not so much "What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result with the UK", more "What the EU will want is whatever gets the best result for the EU".

Throughout the Brexit nonsense, politicians appear to have been assuming that we will get pretty much the deal we want. We won't - we'll get the deal that 27 other countries feel won't be detrimental to themselves. Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Red White and Blue Brexit - the EU will decide. The UK really doesn't have a strong negotiating position.

Agree with that. When I said "with UK", I meant with the UK issue.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:52 pm

The lack of senior personnel on Labour's front bench for todays Brexit debate is a bloody disgrace.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:55 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
They basically had to rethink all the law (with mixed results) when the Euro crisis happened. They'll bodge up a deal on Scotland joining easily enough.

Juncker's the deal man.

Possibly - but why would they bother? (And Scotland doesn't even have sea links to continental Europe).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 4:55 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39254774" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Too much paid' to build free schools

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:08 pm

Steven Swinford‏Verified account
@Steven_Swinford

Follow
More
Tory rebellion brewing in Commons. Nicky Morgan & Dominic Grieve not getting the assurances they asked for in Commons over Article 50

Excellent.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:11 pm

“Professionally, it is more just that so little gets done. It is so old and defunct in terms of its systems and procedures – a lot of the time, it is just a waste of time.”

- Mhairi Black
Mhairi Black may quit 'depressing' parliament after single term as MP

A lot of effort goes into that theatre
How else can a small number of people having done nothing more than inherit plunder and/or make others work so they don't have to hang onto it all without overt force?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:19 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
They basically had to rethink all the law (with mixed results) when the Euro crisis happened. They'll bodge up a deal on Scotland joining easily enough.

Juncker's the deal man.
Possibly - but why would they bother? (And Scotland doesn't even have sea links to continental Europe).

Would be a political feather in the EU's cap, for sure, and maybe some new impetus for the Euro (if that's what Scotland decided to do- I don't see a weak Scottish currency being much good).

But I'm not sure how it fits into the big UK question.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:19 pm

Theresa May unlikely to trigger article 50 before end of March
PM won’t start Brexit process on Tuesday amid rumours delay is linked to Sturgeon’s Scottish referendum announcement

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... d-of-march" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:21 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -oil-price" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Scottish economy has strengths – but could it make a success of independence?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:22 pm

I dislike bad drama
Cut the crap and tell the truth
Where are we at?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:22 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Sturgeon has no choice politically. She can't wait until post-hard Brexit to make her move.

It is possible the Nats will win. Two factors have shifted

1. The EU. Scotland would be offered fast track membership IMO. The choice is now staying in the EU or staying in the UK. If I were Scottish I'd still vote for the latter out of self interest, but the balance has shifted.

2. The collapse of Labour. Back in 2014 there was the fairly strong prospect of Lab/SNP government. Now Tory government looks set as far as the eye can see.

The oil price makes the SNP's economic programme even more implausible, but who knows?

William Hills make it odds on Scotland votes for independence

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... nd-of-2024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making it even more certain that Tory rule down south is more or less permanent.

Why can't she wait till after Brexit's happened? What if there's a transitional deal of some kind agreed?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:38 pm

May's put back Article 50 till the last week of March.

We might see the veneer of confidence get chipped away at.

She is quite spectacularly useless.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 5:51 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 23686.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP’s fit-to-work tests ‘cause permanent damage to mental health’, study fin

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2017/ ... ssessment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:09 pm

I don't think Hard Brexit is quite as nailed on as it was.

Clegg suggested Soft Brexit, with an immigration brake, was on the table. He will have excellent contacts. I think a cross party ambush is on.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:17 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... p=cur&_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How the Republican Health Plan Could Affect You

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:21 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... de#history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Published ADM memo 3/2017: PIP, amendments to daily living activity 3 and mobility activity 1 and revised chapter P2 annotated to memo 3/2017.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:23 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ts#history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bus service bill amendments to Commons committee

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:43 pm

MPs vote down Lords amendment on rights of EU nationals by majority of 48

MPs have voted down the Lords amendment committing the government to guaranteeing the rights of EU nationals by 335 votes to 287, a majority of 48.

That is bigger than the last time the Commons voted on this.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:44 pm

One point Sturgeon had a bit of a problem with was the border. She had to quote May, Davis etc insisting there was no problem with Ireland so it would be the same with Scotland.

It needs a considerably softened Brexit to afford the hard border, because EU/Irish customs will want to stop the NI stuff coming in to check it meets the conditions.

If May achieves that, then the case that she's a hard Brexit loon, let's get out, is surely weaker?

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:50 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Sturgeon has no choice politically. She can't wait until post-hard Brexit to make her move.

It is possible the Nats will win. Two factors have shifted

1. The EU. Scotland would be offered fast track membership IMO. The choice is now staying in the EU or staying in the UK. If I were Scottish I'd still vote for the latter out of self interest, but the balance has shifted.

2. The collapse of Labour. Back in 2014 there was the fairly strong prospect of Lab/SNP government. Now Tory government looks set as far as the eye can see.

The oil price makes the SNP's economic programme even more implausible, but who knows?

William Hills make it odds on Scotland votes for independence

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... nd-of-2024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making it even more certain that Tory rule down south is more or less permanent.
Why can't she wait till after Brexit's happened? What if there's a transitional deal of some kind agreed?

The question wouldn't arise without the connivance of the Greens - she couldn't get a bill through Holyrood without them. (Assuming the other three parties don't have dissenters).

As to the timing - SNP conference next weekend!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:51 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... p=cur&_r=0

How the Republican Health Plan Could Affect You

I wonder if they'll just keep it as it basically is, but cut the taxes on the rich that come with it, and stick it on the national debt.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 6:57 pm

citizenJA wrote:I dislike bad drama
Cut the crap and tell the truth
Where are we at?

I wasn't addressing anyone here with this - coming back to the thread it read like I was
I was asking government

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:03 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Sturgeon has no choice politically. She can't wait until post-hard Brexit to make her move.

It is possible the Nats will win. Two factors have shifted

1. The EU. Scotland would be offered fast track membership IMO. The choice is now staying in the EU or staying in the UK. If I were Scottish I'd still vote for the latter out of self interest, but the balance has shifted.

2. The collapse of Labour. Back in 2014 there was the fairly strong prospect of Lab/SNP government. Now Tory government looks set as far as the eye can see.

The oil price makes the SNP's economic programme even more implausible, but who knows?

William Hills make it odds on Scotland votes for independence

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... nd-of-2024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making it even more certain that Tory rule down south is more or less permanent.
Why can't she wait till after Brexit's happened? What if there's a transitional deal of some kind agreed?
The question wouldn't arise without the connivance of the Greens - she couldn't get a bill through Holyrood without them. (Assuming the other three parties don't have dissenters).

As to the timing - SNP conference next weekend!

Surely the wise sober leader of the SNP wouldn't do a May and overreach to please the party faithful, would she?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:05 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... p=cur&_r=0

How the Republican Health Plan Could Affect You

oh god
I've got nieces and nephews living in the US
I despair

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:08 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Guildford UTC becomes latest university technical college project to be abandoned

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... project-be

Two years ago, Lord Nash said the proposed Guildford UTC would “provide Surrey with generations of skilled cyber-security, engineering and computer-science experts. It is a perfect example of how we are placing technical education on a par with academic learning, while helping our thriving economy to flourish”.

However, in a message on the proposed UTC’s website, its trustees said: “It is with regret that we post this message to inform you of the cancellation of the project to open a university technical college in Guildford. Unfortunately, the Department for Education is no longer supportive of the project and has decided not to proceed further with it.
RIP UTCs - you might have been a good idea in theory but

(i) sticking a 14-19 idea in an 11-19 system simply isn't viable and
(ii) oversight wasn't anywhere near good enough.

Is this the likely scenario with all UK's RoT? The Didcot one is still being built as part of a big expansion to the area as far as I can tell. Is it doomed from the off?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:11 pm

"Not a single Conservative MP voted with the opposition in support of the second Lords amendment, the one that would have given parliament a veto on the outcome of the Brexit talks."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 4dba724968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:13 pm

The Real Fight Starts Now!

The cowardice of the opposition is shaming.

They know this is wrong, but still they vote for it.

You don't know what you're doing! (As we sing at refs).

Craven cowards. I am so angry at our political parties. All those who have just voted for this have disgraced themselves. I won't treat any of them seriously ever again, and will never, ever vote for a party that has backed this Hard Brexit.

Shameful. Shaming.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:21 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:The Real Fight Starts Now!

The cowardice of the opposition is shaming.

They know this is wrong, but still they vote for it.

You don't know what you're doing! (As we sing at refs).

Craven cowards. I am so angry at our political parties. All those who have just voted for this have disgraced themselves. I won't treat any of them seriously ever again, and will never, ever vote for a party that has backed this Hard Brexit.

Shameful. Shaming.

What a load of nonsense!

What is the point of ping pong? The Lords have to capitulate now as there is no way MPs will be changing their minds

Labour I think you will find voted for the amendments.......

One party to blame for this...the Tories but....... your first line is aimed at 'the Opposition' who do not command a majority

The battle on A50 is lost....the new battle starts from now!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:24 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Sturgeon has no choice politically. She can't wait until post-hard Brexit to make her move.

It is possible the Nats will win. Two factors have shifted

1. The EU. Scotland would be offered fast track membership IMO. The choice is now staying in the EU or staying in the UK. If I were Scottish I'd still vote for the latter out of self interest, but the balance has shifted.

2. The collapse of Labour. Back in 2014 there was the fairly strong prospect of Lab/SNP government. Now Tory government looks set as far as the eye can see.

The oil price makes the SNP's economic programme even more implausible, but who knows?

William Hills make it odds on Scotland votes for independence

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... nd-of-2024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making it even more certain that Tory rule down south is more or less permanent.
Why can't she wait till after Brexit's happened? What if there's a transitional deal of some kind agreed?
The question wouldn't arise without the connivance of the Greens - she couldn't get a bill through Holyrood without them. (Assuming the other three parties don't have dissenters).

As to the timing - SNP conference next weekend!

Perhaps our Green spokesperson on here will respond to that as he has been ending his posts recently with Vote Green!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:35 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:May's put back Article 50 till the last week of March.

We might see the veneer of confidence get chipped away at.

She is quite spectacularly useless.

You never know she might even miss March 31.
She's not great on dates if I recall correctly.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 7:57 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:May's put back Article 50 till the last week of March.

We might see the veneer of confidence get chipped away at.

She is quite spectacularly useless.
You never know she might even miss March 31.
She's not great on dates if I recall correctly.

I'm not sure what she's doing. The timetable was too tight once the Lords pinged the amendments back (as there was always a chance they would) but why now the last week?

She'll probably get pushed into doing it next week. She isn't the best at dates, indeed.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:01 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:The Real Fight Starts Now!

The cowardice of the opposition is shaming.

They know this is wrong, but still they vote for it.

You don't know what you're doing! (As we sing at refs).

Craven cowards. I am so angry at our political parties. All those who have just voted for this have disgraced themselves. I won't treat any of them seriously ever again, and will never, ever vote for a party that has backed this Hard Brexit.

Shameful. Shaming.

What a load of nonsense!

What is the point of ping pong? The Lords have to capitulate now as there is no way MPs will be changing their minds

Labour I think you will find voted for the amendments.......

One party to blame for this...the Tories but....... your first line is aimed at 'the Opposition' who do not command a majority

The battle on A50 is lost....the new battle starts from now!

The Fight Starts Now!

Arf.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Mar, 2017 8:04 pm

This isn't a good look. Rushing the bill through the Lords tonight. Furtive.