Wednesday 22nd March 2017

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:35 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I am happy to believe Tubby on this point, tbh.

I am happy to believe someone he knows said it to him, I am less happy to believe that this person really knows the whole story

I don't blame you for that at all.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:36 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Jeez, can people in the media stop this "attack on democracy" stuff?

It's some arseholes trying to kill people where it gets noticed. Not even the arseholes who did it think that democracy is dealt any serious kind of blow.

And on that point I can wholeheartedly agree with you!

If these are terrorist attacks (and I am not sure we can say that yet, and won't the media look silly if it isn't) then if this is the best they can do then I think we are in a better place than we were 30 years ago!

These types of low tech attacks cannot be prevented and as Khan said in the past 'terrorist threats are part and parcel of living in a big city' - sad to say but I think it is true

What does not help is the blanket tv coverage - they just cannot be trusted to get it right

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:37 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Present events inevitably make one recall the June 2010 shootings up here.

It kicked off just yards away from where i worked in Whitehaven some days (though not then, as it happened) That office and many others were locked down for several hours.

We have also just passed the 21st anniversary of Dunblane, and in August reach the 30th anniversary of the Hungerford Massacre. Locals still feel the trauma of both now.

I doubt anyone with an interest in politics didn't have Jo Cox in mind as this attack began. Brendan Cox's words, measured as always.

Brendan Cox‏ @MrBrendanCox 4h4 hours ago
Whoever has attacked our parliament for whatever motive will not succeed in dividing us. All of my thoughts with those injured.
In the days to come I hope we will remember the love & bravery of the victims not just the hatred &cowardice of the attackers.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:37 pm

"Corbyn's dangerous friends: debunking the myth"

https://medium.com/@luke_davies/corbyns ... .5retbig63

Whatever you might think of Corbyn’s politics or his leadership qualities — this article urges serious caution when accepting allegations regarding his links to hateful and violent organisations or individuals.

What is at stake here is not just Corbyn’s reputation, but our tolerance of ideologically motivated slander

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:39 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Jeez, can people in the media stop this "attack on democracy" stuff?

It's some arseholes trying to kill people where it gets noticed. Not even the arseholes who did it think that democracy is dealt any serious kind of blow.

And on that point I can wholeheartedly agree with you!

If these are terrorist attacks (and I am not sure we can say that yet, and won't the media look silly if it isn't) then if this is the best they can do then I think we are in a better place than we were 30 years ago!

These types of low tech attacks cannot be prevented and as Khan said in the past 'terrorist threats are part and parcel of living in a big city' - sad to say but I think it is true

What does not help is the blanket tv coverage - they just cannot be trusted to get it right

Khan has got the tone just right here IMO, but of course some of the "usual suspects" are kicking off about it

Four dead (including the perpetrator) confirmed now btw

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:42 pm

We can talk about this forever, and we won't agree.

I thought this had some interesting points in it. Oliver Miles reviewing Jonathan Powell's book.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/ ... ew-insight" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not intended as an argument against Corbyn, though I have been known to produce those. There's stuff in there which you could see as backing Corbyn in 1984.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:43 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Jeez, can people in the media stop this "attack on democracy" stuff?

It's some arseholes trying to kill people where it gets noticed. Not even the arseholes who did it think that democracy is dealt any serious kind of blow.

And on that point I can wholeheartedly agree with you!

If these are terrorist attacks (and I am not sure we can say that yet, and won't the media look silly if it isn't) then if this is the best they can do then I think we are in a better place than we were 30 years ago!

These types of low tech attacks cannot be prevented and as Khan said in the past 'terrorist threats are part and parcel of living in a big city' - sad to say but I think it is true

What does not help is the blanket tv coverage - they just cannot be trusted to get it right

And I agree with you too!

Livingstone stuck a very good note in 2005 too.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:48 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote: I think you are a liar about what you do and who you vote for - I think your behaviour and bans from numerous sites suggests you are in bad faith

t

I haven't been banned from numerous sites. One, the Guardian, banned me for reasons I do not understand.

I don't think you're a liar. I think you believe the foolish things you do in good faith.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:50 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote: I have never said I supported the 'terror ' of the IRA and roundly condemn that

The grammar of that is a bit ambiguous. But if what you're saying is that you condemn the IRA acts of terror, then you disagree with Corbyn and McDonnell.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:54 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:We can talk about this forever, and we won't agree.

I thought this had some interesting points in it. Oliver Miles reviewing Jonathan Powell's book.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/ ... ew-insight" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not intended as an argument against Corbyn, though I have been known to produce those. There's stuff in there which you could see as backing Corbyn in 1984.

Thanks for that

Personally I don't think we are that far apart to be honest

I think we appreciate the complexities and how difficult it is to get to a settled view on something like this - the political and the moral coming together mixed with a bit of nationalism and religion hiding in the background

I understand your point that it was/could be politically damaging - I just don't think it matters so much now on this question as we are 30 years after and I am not as critical of Corbyn as other are

I do think some others on here are less able than you are to see the complexity and difficulty of taking a position on this subject

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:56 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: I have never said I supported the 'terror ' of the IRA and roundly condemn that

The grammar of that is a bit ambiguous. But if what you're saying is that you condemn the IRA acts of terror, then you disagree with Corbyn and McDonnell.

Oh go away you annoying individual....I am not following your rabbit warrens down dead ends of discussion - I will only discuss with those who I think are capable of understanding the complexity of an argument

oh...and of course not having bad faith and being a liar

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 6:59 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... retirement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Number of women working past 70 in UK doubles in four years

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:00 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: I have never said I supported the 'terror ' of the IRA and roundly condemn that

The grammar of that is a bit ambiguous. But if what you're saying is that you condemn the IRA acts of terror, then you disagree with Corbyn and McDonnell.

Oh go away you annoying individual....I am not following your rabbit warrens down dead ends of discussion - I will only discuss with those who I think are capable of understanding the complexity of an argument

oh...and of course not having bad faith and being a liar

Fair enough. I don't myself find the killing of innocent people terribly complex and difficult. Indeed, if you think that it is, I think you've lost your moral compass.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:09 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: The grammar of that is a bit ambiguous. But if what you're saying is that you condemn the IRA acts of terror, then you disagree with Corbyn and McDonnell.

Oh go away you annoying individual....I am not following your rabbit warrens down dead ends of discussion - I will only discuss with those who I think are capable of understanding the complexity of an argument

oh...and of course not having bad faith and being a liar

Fair enough. I don't myself find the killing of innocent people terribly complex and difficult. Indeed, if you think that it is, I think you've lost your moral compass.

I don't agree with anyone killing innocent people, it is just I can understand why it happens. once that line is crossed then there is not stopping it and it has to be taken to the conclusion - it starts with targeting the security forces but it can never end there.

The IRA struggle could have been prevented by the actions of Governments and that is what I would encourage

Unfortunately, every single Government and political institution has been doing it since the beginning of history - although they lie about it, keep it secret or call it 'collateral damage'

No moral question, using terror or killing is never acceptable. Neither is suppressing and denying civil liberties to who populations or to use collective punishment

The ends are always used to justify the means

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:10 pm

So the attacker is a well known extremist loon who's been detained before.

Anybody think a Labour Prime Minister who'd slashed the police would be allowed to be presidential like May is?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:14 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:So the attacker is a well known extremist loon who's been detained before.

Anybody think a Labour Prime Minister who'd slashed the police would be allowed to be presidential like May is?

Wonder at the approach of May now?

Not known for being liberal is she.....detention orders, without charge?

Who in Labour will support more draconian measures if they are proposed?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:15 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:So the attacker is a well known extremist loon who's been detained before.

Anybody think a Labour Prime Minister who'd slashed the police would be allowed to be presidential like May is?

Ah right, the fallout from this could be.........interesting.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:20 pm

Perhaps they will blame it on 'mental illness' and judge it not to be terrorism?

Or perhaps not!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:25 pm

I'll take my hat off to anybody brave enough to bring up the police cuts and who did them.

They'll get told they're "playing politics". And all the police we lost were only doing Labour paperwork target culture anyway.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:30 pm

When I see stuff like this, and there are obvious dangers with cuts, I wonder if there could be a political audience for income tax or NIC rises starting at a lowish level, sold upfront.

I appreciate the irony of me calling other people "unelectable" here.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:34 pm

Now claimed that the "prime suspect" was - and still is - in jail and so could not have committed today's attack

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:36 pm

The attacker isn't "Asian".

I appreciate that reporters were probably reporting eye witnesses, but the error should be corrected quickly.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:37 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Now claimed that the "prime suspect" was - and still is - in jail and so could not have committed today's attack

The name Channel 4 came up with?

I take my attack on Theresa May back pretty sharpish.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 7:55 pm

Speculating on the name & race of the attacker is pretty pointless tbh & the stuff you'd find in the pages of tabloids.

The Police will release the details once they have evidence of his identity.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 8:48 pm

Mhairi Black MP‏Verified account
@MhairiBlack
Scotland has 59 MPs. London has 73. The second largest country in the UK can be outvoted by a single city. That's the real shame.

It's a shame, yeah. The real shame.

In other news, Northumberland is the biggest county in England. It gets outvoted by Glasgow, a single Scottish city. And indeed Edinburgh, another single Scottish city.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 8:49 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Mhairi Black MP‏Verified account
@MhairiBlack
Scotland has 59 MPs. London has 73. The second largest country in the UK can be outvoted by a single city. That's the real shame.
It's a shame, yeah. The real shame.

In other news, Northumberland is the biggest county in England. It gets outvoted by Glasgow, a single Scottish city. And indeed Edinburgh, another single Scottish city.

Good point.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 8:50 pm

Channel 4 News look like they've got an imminent appointment with the man's "learned friends".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:06 pm

I'm tired tonight
Take care, everyone, I love you
cJA

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:19 pm

David Cameron was "Tweeting" earlier, according to the BBC news. I can't remember the content of his "Tweet" - I merely assumed that he was angling for an invitation to the COBRA meeting.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:27 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Mhairi Black MP‏Verified account
@MhairiBlack
Scotland has 59 MPs. London has 73. The second largest country in the UK can be outvoted by a single city. That's the real shame.
It's a shame, yeah. The real shame.

In other news, Northumberland is the biggest county in England. It gets outvoted by Glasgow, a single Scottish city. And indeed Edinburgh, another single Scottish city.

It depends on how you define a county. If you're using the historical counties (which have no legal existence), then it's Yorkshire as a whole. If you're using the ceremonial counties (that is, the areas for which Lords Lieutenant are appointed), it's North Yorkshire (including the area controlled by the City of York council). If you're using the administrative counties (areas with county or unitary authorities), it's still North Yorkshire (albeït minus York).

Top 5

North Yorkshire (8,608 km2)
Lincolnshire (6,959 km2)
Cumbria (6,767 km2)
Devon (6,707 km2)
Norfolk (5,371 km2)

Population Nth Yorkshire 602,300

Greater Glasgow - 1,199,629

approx.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:32 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... ts_by_area" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"District" doesn't sound as good as county, does it?

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:37 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... ts_by_area

"District" doesn't sound as good as county, does it?

declared interest...

I live in...Yorkshire !

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:40 pm

It's objectively a big county.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:46 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:It's objectively a big county.

Wasn't it Northumberland ( pop 315,800 ) that was unwisely described as a desolate wasteland... I may have lost the exact wording.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:51 pm

I think it was the "North East". So County Durham too.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:52 pm

The North East always looks nice on Escape to the Country, mind.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 9:54 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:The North East always looks nice on Escape to the Country, mind.

And cold. Don't forget cold.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 10:05 pm

Warm hearts,of course I married a North Easterner and my mam (correct spelling) comes from there,I maybe slightly biased.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 10:28 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/s ... mg00000004" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

‘Sweetheart Deal’ Councillor Quits Key Tory Position After Social Care Row
David Hodge was under pressure from Tory colleagues

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 10:53 pm

HindleA: Sorry I did not get a chance to reply to your reply to my link yesterday (I was posting from work):

@GetYou the costs of the bedroom tax are incalcuable,vast amounts in legal fees,cost saving arrangements foregone etc.No money spared in the pursuit of misanthropy.

I quite agree with you. I am fortunate to work with people on behalf of a borough who were very pro-active in preparation for the bedroom tax. We used a very data-rich targeted approach to identify the households most at risk before the tax took effect, which resulted in a good number of them being correctly excluded from it all together or finding useful ways to mitigate the impact.

I dread to think of the scale of what has happened elsewhere as I have heard a few heartwrenching stories first hand.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:17 pm

Well you may well have noticed my basic position with this and other reforms is of increased costs elsewhere-they are continuing with the pursuance of a case lost in the Supreme Court to maintain their position of DHP despite accepted discriminatory nature and obvious cost far in excess of supposed savings and that is before you get to the implications of continued care in own home or the future possibility-AND base misanthropy and targeted nature given less people have moved and in stark contrast find millions towards reducing the CT of annexes regardless of actual use I say a fascistic air about such things given a plethora of policies deliberately targeted to come the sick/disabled home owner similarly saving vast amounts given any alternative barring the obvious concurrent with encouragement to misportray as takers when the opposite is the case,

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:19 pm

Been thinking about Progress seeing they keep coming up.

They're pretty boring to most people. Do they even try and sign up a load of people with the express purpose of winning internal elections? I'd doubt that's even possible.

I of course accept that they have rich donors who try to shift policy in a way I often don't like.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:19 pm

I learned from a Cybernat earlier that Labour supported the Bedroom Tax.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:24 pm

The Webbian classic of why should they have a room for dialysis that isn't by default spare when others have not doesn't let the Libdems off the hook quite the opposite.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:25 pm

"Labour introduced the BT" used to be the standard meme there.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:"Labour introduced the BT" used to be the standard meme there.

I forgot that.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:38 pm

Afzal Khan selected as Labour candidate for Gorton, "pro-Corbyn" hopeful Dar a good second. Progress standard bearer Lone was a poor fourth.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Mar, 2017 11:41 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... bs-at-risk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Shoe retailer Brantano goes into administration with 1,000 jobs at risk

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 23 Mar, 2017 2:19 am

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2017/03/cridland/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cridland report calls for reshaping of benefits for older workers

The benefits system needs to be reshaped to better aid older workers is an important conclusion of the Cridland review of state pension age to be published later today.

The full report will be published later this morning, so we only have the briefest details.

And, to be clear, the TUC doesn’t agree with several of his key conclusions:

The TUC opposes Cridland’s proposed accelerated increase in the state pension age to 68 between 2037 and 2039. Under the 2007 PEnsions Act this was pencilled in for 2044 to 2046. Substantial inequalities in life expectancy and, particularly, healthy life expectancy mean this policy will hit the poorest hardest.
And we do not support the downgrading of the triple lock that currently governs rises in the level of the state pension in favour of an earnings link. The triple lock has been gradually bringing the state pension back up to a reasonable level. And its work is not done. The greatest potential beneficiaries of this policy are today’s young workers. There doesn’t need to be a trade-off between pension age and the level of the state pension.
Both these measures would, in practice, hit the future incomes of those currently in their 30s and 40s. This Generation X is already the worst placed of the generations in terms of workplace saving. And the poorest of this generation would be affected the most. For they are the least likely to be able to work into later life or have the substantial savings needed to cushion retirement ahead of state pension age.

But cutting through a debate too often characterised by hysterical and unhelpful claims of intergenerational conflict, Cridland’s first report showed a good understanding of the challenges faced by older workers and groups such as carers. And his final report contains some useful ideas that might help those who want to work in their later years but are hindered by inhospitable workplaces or an inflexible benefits system.

Among his plans include a new mid-life MOT to help people plan their later lives, addressing their lifestyle their skills, paid and unpaid work, and their retirement income. For this to work, the review would have to take place in a workplace setting. After all, an employer’s support is needed for adjustment to workplaces, moves to flexible working or training for a role more suitable for an older worker, which are all essential if they are to stay in the labour market. But the principle is a useful one and the logical extension of a policy the TUC has long championed.

Likewise, Cridland recognises that many older workers simply cannot stay in work. So he proposes additional means-tested support available one year before state pension age coming into effect after 2037 for those unable to work through ill health or caring responsibilities. This is too late. People face those challenges today. And one year would seem an excessively narrow window. But, again, implemented correctly this could provide the right kind of flexibility in the benefits system.

Likewise, his proposal for flexibility in the conditionality of Universal Credit for those approaching state pension age to allow part-time work could be another mechanism for allowing workers to continue to earn a wage and allow workplaces to continue to benefit from the skills and experience of its older employees.

TUC research published last year delved into the experience of older workers. We found that:

Over the last 15 years the ranks of older workers – those aged over 50 – has increased by nearly three million or 44 per cent to 9.6 million.
There remains an enormous drop in participation in the labour market from well before state pension age. Barely half of 60-64 year olds are economically active.
There are nearly half a million people within five years of state pension age who are too ill or disabled to work, this is one in eight.
Up to a third of older people from manual occupations who are economically inactive ahead of retirement cite sickness or disability as the reason. This is twice the rate of those in some white collar categories.
Cridland’s proposals would not overcome the problems caused by vast inequalities in wealth and health. But they go some way to meeting our demand that if, we want to maintain a stable dependency ratio – the number of workers compared to non-workers –we need to do far more than just hike up state pension age and hope for the best. This will lead to many facing hardship in their 50s and 60s. And society will lose their skills and their tax revenues.

We need policy interventions to overcome the barriers that many face. Several of these proposals are a good place to start.