Wednesday 29th March 2017

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 5:41 am

Good morning to you all

I have taken the liberty of starting us off (being an hour ahead does allow an early start!)

Today is the day we start to see the end of the phoney war and hands will start to be shown!

Personally, I think this will be the start of a very bad two years for the Tory Party, although the UK as a whole will be dragged down by their own internal politics

Hold on tight, the rollercoaster is about to start!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 7:13 am

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/epp-ch ... me-narrow/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The chief of the European Parliament’s biggest group says that it will not be possible to negotiate Britain’s divorce proceedings and a new relationship at the same time, and warns that the 2-year negotiation time frame will be too short to have a full Brexit resolution.
Manfred Weber, the head of the Christian Democratic European People’s Party in the EU Parliament, called it “a kind of mission impossible” acerbated by the nine months lost since the British voted to leave on June 23 last year.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 7:38 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Good morning to you all

I have taken the liberty of starting us off (being an hour ahead does allow an early start!)

Today is the day we start to see the end of the phoney war and hands will start to be shown!

Personally, I think this will be the start of a very bad two years for the Tory Party, although the UK as a whole will be dragged down by their own internal politics

Hold on tight, the rollercoaster is about to start!

The real fight starts here!

No.

The fight took place and has finished. Now the Tories see if they can negotiate a deal, and we'll have no choice but either to accept it or leave the EU without one.

The fight is finished. Hard Brexit here we come.

Which is a shame as a compromise position, remaining in the EEA for example, was capable of being fought for even after the Brexit vote was lost. With a different leader (Owen Smith, Ed Miliband) that is what Labour would have tried for, trying to peel off enough Tory MPs who realise that it is the best option.

Unfortunately, that avenue is now closed off. We just have to hope David Davis is right. Not a large hope.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 7:59 am

Morning.

Daily Mail front page even worse than yesterday's.

"Time to come together" apparently, says the Mail's barely-human avatar.

Nope.

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howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 8:17 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Good morning to you all

I have taken the liberty of starting us off (being an hour ahead does allow an early start!)

Today is the day we start to see the end of the phoney war and hands will start to be shown!

Personally, I think this will be the start of a very bad two years for the Tory Party, although the UK as a whole will be dragged down by their own internal politics

Hold on tight, the rollercoaster is about to start!

The real fight starts here!

No.

The fight took place and has finished. Now the Tories see if they can negotiate a deal, and we'll have no choice but either to accept it or leave the EU without one.

The fight is finished. Hard Brexit here we come.

Which is a shame as a compromise position, remaining in the EEA for example, was capable of being fought for even after the Brexit vote was lost. With a different leader (Owen Smith, Ed Miliband) that is what Labour would have tried for, trying to peel off enough Tory MPs who realise that it is the best option.

Unfortunately, that avenue is now closed off. We just have to hope David Davis is right. Not a large hope.

Well if you are right (which is a very big if) then the die was cast in May 2015 and June 2016.....there was no stopping the road to Brexit

The only party who could have done things differently are the Tories and they have decided this is the way they want it to go (and I have seen precious little indication the British voters want it to be otherwise at the moment)

I suggest you you and take your moaning and whinging to a Tory site as they are the only ones who can do anything

I know you like to try and blame everyone else but your Tory party but they are as close to 100% to blame for this as does not matter

Posters on here are absolutely entitled to complain about the Labour leadership but as you are neither a member or supporter your opinions are no more relevant as those of any political opponent of the party

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 8:30 am

Anyway I popped in to say for PF's benefit how appropriate she would have found it to hear a crappy brass band version of Jerusalem playing on a loop at the station this morning.

Forward Global Britain

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 8:37 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Good morning to you all

I have taken the liberty of starting us off (being an hour ahead does allow an early start!)

Today is the day we start to see the end of the phoney war and hands will start to be shown!

Personally, I think this will be the start of a very bad two years for the Tory Party, although the UK as a whole will be dragged down by their own internal politics

Hold on tight, the rollercoaster is about to start!

The real fight starts here!

No.

The fight took place and has finished. Now the Tories see if they can negotiate a deal, and we'll have no choice but either to accept it or leave the EU without one.

The fight is finished. Hard Brexit here we come.

Which is a shame as a compromise position, remaining in the EEA for example, was capable of being fought for even after the Brexit vote was lost. With a different leader (Owen Smith, Ed Miliband) that is what Labour would have tried for, trying to peel off enough Tory MPs who realise that it is the best option.

Unfortunately, that avenue is now closed off. We just have to hope David Davis is right. Not a large hope.
Still not a hint of nuance. Not a trace of accepting others' points of views.

I didn't absent myself from this site because of you Hugo, but you sure make it hard to return.

Does it not bother you that very many serious commentators are saying that, notwithstanding a few presentational issues (!), Labour is essentially in the right place on this? In fact I'm sure it does bother you, because it doesn't really suit your agenda does it?

I for one am glad the trigger thing has finally been triggered. No more opportunities to strut around like a glossy Cameron on his way to a COBRA. May is firmly in the spotlight now.

1. As with our arguments about Jeremy Corbyn two years ago, our disagreements now concern what will happen. I thought and think that Corbyn would be an unmitigated disaster for Labour (though that was not I emphasise my primary reason for not wanting him elected). We are not, of course, yet at the time for General Election. Plenty of time yet for those who thought and think he is great to be proven right. We'll see.

2. Same with Brexit. I think the fight is now finished, and we'll have no choice but to accept whatever half arsed deal the Tories come up with. Howsilly seems to agree with Corbyn that the fight starts now. Well, again we'll see. Maybe Corbyn and McDonnell will spend their time arguing for membership of the Customs Union, and seeking a deal on our remaining in an arrangement equivalent to the Single Market. I bet they don't. They'll make some noises about workers rights and environmental regulation (matters that are wholly within our own domestic control and hence irrelevant) and that will be it.

We'll see, won't we?

I am sure that the likes of yourself and Howsilly will be first in the queue to say how bad my judgement is, once Labour is elected in 2020 having remorselessly campaigned under Jeremy Corbyn for 3 years under the banner of protecting the UK's position in the single market.

If, by contrast, we just end up with Hard Brexit, Corbyn and McDonnell make no serious attempts to resist it, and despite this disaster the Tories are still re-elected with an increased majority in 2020, I'll keep quiet. "I told you so"s are so unattractive.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 8:52 am

Before we end up with 20-mile quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes.
Let's play nicely today and focus on the actual "enemy". The Tories whose actions brought us to this unmitigated disaster of a place for our country'/ies to be in.
Cheers, TC

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:05 am

Morning

Multiple layers of determination of proving yourselves correct and self fulfilment,humbly suggest.

SH has zero effect on me beyond more posting of relentless links because it isn't always about him unless people make it so,and saying he has zero effect.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:07 am

Emergency PIP debate after PM and ten mimute rule Bill,90 minutes.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:07 am

Genuine question: after the events of the last 8-9 years, how does anyone on the left retain any optimism whatsoever about how this all turns out? How do you convince yourself the Tories are somehow going to be screwed? They misrepresented the financial crisis to gain power, and it worked and still works. They destroyed the third party to sustain power. They have exploited a fringe party to move further right, and even that worked: they are more popular than they have been in a generation. They pulled off a jammy win in the Scotland referendum, and instead of learning from it, used it to stoke English nationalism and shaft Labour in a key heartland for god knows how long. And just as importantly as any political event until Brexit, they even managed to ride out Leveson and unleash their vile version of karma on Ed Miliband, whom I admired. And even that worked. And now Brexit is quite clearly going to be a right-wing coup at a time of piss-weak opposition, which was always patently obvious and one of my main reasons for opposing it so vehemently in spite of some fair arguments about the flaws of the EU project.

This Tory party is utterly revolting in every conceivable sense, yet they're winning big on everything. I genuinely don't know where you get your faith from any more. Every major event has turned out worse than we expected, and yet the biggest and most potentially nightmarish one of all is supposed to turn out better? I can remember a headline on here from the day the (previous) boundary changes were opposed by the LDs and it said "The Tories lose the next election today". That was what, five years ago? It was unnerving even then, but to read that sort of thing now...

Believe it or not, I'm not a natural pessimist. But at the moment, to be anything else seems ridiculous.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:10 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nding-cuts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Education quality in English schools at risk from funding cuts

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hed-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:13 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Before we end up with 20-mile quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes.
Let's play nicely today and focus on the actual "enemy". The Tories whose actions brought us to this unmitigated disaster of a place for our country'/ies to be in.
Cheers, TC

I never really understand this argument. There are no Tories on this board. I know we occasionally see OpenSeas or Rusty, but nobody thinks they would be convinced to reconsider their views by anything that they read. I get accused by Howsilly of being a Tory, but I'm not (Obviously not if you've followed what I write.)

So who would we be convincing by "focusing on the enemy"? It might be nicer to just focus on areas of agreement, but none of us would be leaving out comfort zone in doing that.

(agree about quotes within quotes though. I'lll do my best to prevent clutter.)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:15 am

Posts with quotes duly deleted.

Btw I think we used to have a restriction on how many nested quotes you can have but "voted" to change it.

Is this really a forum where it's not OK to reply to people?

I know I'm being overly sensitive, but I thought I'd give it a try again and it hasn't started well

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:18 am

Jo Maugham QC‏ @JolyonMaugham
Tomorrow the Govt will present a White Paper asking Parliament to authorise the repeal of the Act that keeps us within the Single Market.

Jo Maugham QC‏ @JolyonMaugham
The White Paper will ask Parliament to authorise the PM to repeal the European Economic Area Act of 1993.

Do we have to do this? Is this an automatic consequence of invoking article 50, or is it a choice? Will political journalists bother to tell us, or will they just keep interviewing random members of the public for their (completely uninformed) views of Brexit?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:25 am

Willow904 wrote:
Jo Maugham QC‏ @JolyonMaugham
Tomorrow the Govt will present a White Paper asking Parliament to authorise the repeal of the Act that keeps us within the Single Market.

Jo Maugham QC‏ @JolyonMaugham
The White Paper will ask Parliament to authorise the PM to repeal the European Economic Area Act of 1993.
Do we have to do this? Is this an automatic consequence of invoking article 50, or is it a choice? Will political journalists bother to tell us, or will they just keep interviewing random members of the public for their (completely uninformed) views of Brexit?

I think we know the answer!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:25 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Posts with quotes duly deleted.

Btw I think we used to have a restriction on how many nested quotes you can have but "voted" to change it.

Is this really a forum where it's not OK to reply to people?

I know I'm being overly sensitive, but I thought I'd give it a try again and it hasn't started well

Whenever people make the effort to quote just a small, relevant part of a post, I appreciate it for ease of reading, but I also appreciate many people don't have the time, so am really not bothered by multiple nested posts and I hope others feel the same.

I suspect the repetitive argument between SpinningHugo and Howsillyofme1, which has been going on for some time before today and keeps covering the same ground, was the cause of the request for less nested posts.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:29 am

If there is a daily link limit imposition I will seek legal advice.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:36 am

StephenDolan wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Jo Maugham QC‏ @JolyonMaugham
Tomorrow the Govt will present a White Paper asking Parliament to authorise the repeal of the Act that keeps us within the Single Market.

Jo Maugham QC‏ @JolyonMaugham
The White Paper will ask Parliament to authorise the PM to repeal the European Economic Area Act of 1993.
Do we have to do this? Is this an automatic consequence of invoking article 50, or is it a choice? Will political journalists bother to tell us, or will they just keep interviewing random members of the public for their (completely uninformed) views of Brexit?
I think we know the answer!

Um...I really don't, that's why I asked! About whether we need to repeal the EEA act, I mean. Obviously we know the answer to the second question about the complete and utter uselessness of the majority of the British press.

Newsnight last night was so depressing. All these old people moaning about how the EU had spent all this money on useless things in Ebwr Vale. Cut to Nick Clegg in front of one of the "useless" new buildings. Not a grey hair in sight, lots of young people milling about. Yep, the "useless" building was a state of the art technical college, being enthusiastically used by lots of young people who it was built for and who no doubt greatly appreciate it. What is it about spending money on the next generation that these golden oldie leave voters think is a waste of money?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:38 am

@Willow904

Thank you. Of course I haven't been following the [alleged] howsilly vs Hugo quotathons so had no way to know that TC's comment didn't apply equally to me (though TC has always been quite civil previously

)

On repealing, I did point this out when the government published it's Brexit white paper. I don't think there's anything specific on the EEA, but the 'Great Repeal Act'

is discussed. What they say they will do is basically repeal all EU laws and automatically replace them with identical UK laws. Then we will decide one by one, which of those to retain.

People have pointed out that this is very dangerous if May interprets "Parliament" as the prerogative.

The Government’s general approach to preserving EU law is to ensure that all EU laws which are directly applicable in the UK (such as EU regulations) and all laws which have been made in the UK, in order to implement our obligations as a member of the EU, remain part of domestic law on the day we leave the EU.
In general the Government also believes that the preserved law should continue to be interpreted in the same way as it is at the moment. This approach is in order to ensure a coherent approach which provides continuity. It will be open to Parliament in the future to keep or change these laws.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:41 am

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Posts with quotes duly deleted.

Btw I think we used to have a restriction on how many nested quotes you can have but "voted" to change it.

Is this really a forum where it's not OK to reply to people?

I know I'm being overly sensitive, but I thought I'd give it a try again and it hasn't started well
Whenever people make the effort to quote just a small, relevant part of a post, I appreciate it for ease of reading, but I also appreciate many people don't have the time, so am really not bothered by multiple nested posts and I hope others feel the same.

I suspect the repetitive argument between SpinningHugo and Howsillyofme1, which has been going on for some time before today and keeps covering the same ground, was the cause of the request for less nested posts.

Why attack me and Hugo?

I find your posts repetitive and cover the same old ground too but don't say it because you have every right to do so

If Hugo is still welcome on this board then we should be allowed to challenge him - and his lack of honesty if we perceive it

I challenge strongly his view that this is always the fault of Labour, in particular the leadership and want to make the point it is the Tories

Also tc2 came in with a first post of the morning, not even bothering to say 'Good morning' and telling us how to post!

I am posting from a phone and haven't got time to mess with formatting so if I reply I embed

Well done tc2 as Paul has now deleted his original post!

Now back to subject.....at least Hugo and I were discussing politics

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:41 am

Morning all. Worth looking at the attached pics...

Tom Peck‏Verified account
@tompeck

Follow
More
So looking forward to the "negotiations" between the grown-ups and the children. (h/t @RobDotHutton)

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howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:43 am

Paul,

Please do me the service of not just believing what someone else accuses me of

I am not aware of being involved in 'quotathons' to any greater extent than others

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:49 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Paul,

Please do me the service of not just believing what someone else accuses me of

I am not aware of being involved in 'quotathons' to any greater extent than others

I was just saying I hadn't seen any such thing! Sorry if I caused offence.

Anyway, I think I have put a quote limit back. I'm about to test it and this will be a joke. OK?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:50 am

Corbyn

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:50 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Corbyn

Brexit

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:51 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Paul,

Please do me the service of not just believing what someone else accuses me of

I am not aware of being involved in 'quotathons' to any greater extent than others
I was just saying I hadn't seen any such thing! Sorry if I caused offence.

Anyway, I think I have put a quote limit back. I'm about to test it and this will be a joke. OK?

You couldn't offend me if you tried Paul

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:52 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Corbyn
Brexit

Corbyn

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:52 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Corbyn
Brexit
Corbyn

Brexit

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:53 am

It worked

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:54 am

Easily changed back or to a number other than 3 if folk prefer

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:03 am

Oh my. Of all the people they could have hired to promote truthfulness...

Andy Coulson hired as Telegraph PR adviser

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... pr-adviser

Andy Coulson, the former editor of the News of the World who was jailed following the phone-hacking scandal, has been hired to do PR for the Telegraph Media Group (TMG).

His public relations firm, Coulson Chappell, has been awarded a contract to improve the standing of the company’s publications, the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. His main brief is thought to be to promote the papers as truthful and authoritative.

The appointment was overseen by TMG’s chief executive, Murdoch MacLennan, who is regarded as one of Coulson’s most loyal friends. He gave evidence on Coulson’s behalf at his trial.

is it me or is the country just going a bit bonkers?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:08 am

Good-morning, all

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:13 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh my. Of all the people they could have hired to promote truthfulness...

Andy Coulson hired as Telegraph PR adviser

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... pr-adviser

Andy Coulson, the former editor of the News of the World who was jailed following the phone-hacking scandal, has been hired to do PR for the Telegraph Media Group (TMG).

His public relations firm, Coulson Chappell, has been awarded a contract to improve the standing of the company’s publications, the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. His main brief is thought to be to promote the papers as truthful and authoritative.

The appointment was overseen by TMG’s chief executive, Murdoch MacLennan, who is regarded as one of Coulson’s most loyal friends. He gave evidence on Coulson’s behalf at his trial.
is it me or is the country just going a bit bonkers?

.....
No, I've got nothing.
.....
Again.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:18 am

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I hope he's having a shit day.

He probably isn't.

Wouldn't surprise me if he rang Coulson and congratulated him.

Prick.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:18 am

Good morfternoon.

Lately, I'm having to log in every day (although I'm not aware of having logged out the previous evening) despite having opted for "remain logged in". Any reason for that, please? I'm easily confused (don't quote me).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:37 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Posts with quotes duly deleted.

Btw I think we used to have a restriction on how many nested quotes you can have but "voted" to change it.

Is this really a forum where it's not OK to reply to people?

I know I'm being overly sensitive, but I thought I'd give it a try again and it hasn't started well

No, sorry, not what I intended at all.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:38 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Posts with quotes duly deleted.

Btw I think we used to have a restriction on how many nested quotes you can have but "voted" to change it.

Is this really a forum where it's not OK to reply to people?

I know I'm being overly sensitive, but I thought I'd give it a try again and it hasn't started well
Whenever people make the effort to quote just a small, relevant part of a post, I appreciate it for ease of reading, but I also appreciate many people don't have the time, so am really not bothered by multiple nested posts and I hope others feel the same.

I suspect the repetitive argument between SpinningHugo and Howsillyofme1, which has been going on for some time before today and keeps covering the same ground, was the cause of the request for less nested posts.

Why attack me and Hugo?

I find your posts repetitive and cover the same old ground too but don't say it because you have every right to do so

If Hugo is still welcome on this board then we should be allowed to challenge him - and his lack of honesty if we perceive it

I challenge strongly his view that this is always the fault of Labour, in particular the leadership and want to make the point it is the Tories

Also tc2 came in with a first post of the morning, not even bothering to say 'Good morning' and telling us how to post!

I am posting from a phone and haven't got time to mess with formatting so if I reply I embed

Well done tc2 as Paul has now deleted his original post!

Now back to subject.....at least Hugo and I were discussing politics

It's not repeated opinions I'm uncomfortable with, it's repeated unevidenced accusations of lying. SpinningHugo's opinions may be objectionable to some posters here but they are consistent (not just here but elsewhere). You have expressed your opinion that you don't believe SH's expressed opinions are genuine. SH has refuted this. I see no reason for this to be gone over again. We are all in the position that we don't really know if posters we interact with online are being "genuine". I'm not saying what other posters should or shouldn't do, btw, I'm just saying that I'm personally uncomfortable with the genuineness of posters' opinions being challenged, when there is no way of knowing one way or another.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:40 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Posts with quotes duly deleted.

Btw I think we used to have a restriction on how many nested quotes you can have but "voted" to change it.

Is this really a forum where it's not OK to reply to people?

I know I'm being overly sensitive, but I thought I'd give it a try again and it hasn't started well
Whenever people make the effort to quote just a small, relevant part of a post, I appreciate it for ease of reading, but I also appreciate many people don't have the time, so am really not bothered by multiple nested posts and I hope others feel the same.

I suspect the repetitive argument between SpinningHugo and Howsillyofme1, which has been going on for some time before today and keeps covering the same ground, was the cause of the request for less nested posts.

Why attack me and Hugo?

I find your posts repetitive and cover the same old ground too but don't say it because you have every right to do so

If Hugo is still welcome on this board then we should be allowed to challenge him - and his lack of honesty if we perceive it

I challenge strongly his view that this is always the fault of Labour, in particular the leadership and want to make the point it is the Tories

Also tc2 came in with a first post of the morning, not even bothering to say 'Good morning' and telling us how to post!

I am posting from a phone and haven't got time to mess with formatting so if I reply I embed

Well done tc2 as Paul has now deleted his original post!

Now back to subject.....at least Hugo and I were discussing politics

But I had already thanked you for starting the thread!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:45 am

Anyway.

Neil interviewing May at prime time. That could be interesting.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:58 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Lately, I'm having to log in every day (although I'm not aware of having logged out the previous evening) despite having opted for "remain logged in". Any reason for that, please? I'm easily confused (don't quote me).

Possibly because you've (inadvertently) deleted cookies. Depends on your browser, but it's possible to automatically delete cookies when you exit IE. I assume other browsers are the same.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:02 am

"quotathons" involving SH are definitely a thing, though I'd say not only with hsom. I find them a bit annoying because I block SH's posts, so then I have to ignore the other poster as well if I still don't want to read SH. Each to his own though.

@porfavor I've been away and just looking in occasionally on the ipad, had to log in each time. Back home on the laptop, no problem.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:06 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ble-defeat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pro-European hopes of a change of heart triggered by realisation that the whole thing is a folly are misplaced. Ken Clarke compares Brexit to the Iraq war – a foreign policy choice that enjoyed majority support until gruesome reality intervened. But leavers didn’t passively go along with this new adventure: they voted for it. For many that was an emotional investment, motivated by feelings of belonging to a certain place and fearing it had become somewhere else without their consent. Such allegiances are not casually discarded. Insistence that Brexit is necessary will continue to overpower technical exposition of its impracticality.

I fear there is a lot of truth to this. If we end up with anything less than a hard Brexit, it won't be because leave voters change their minds and demand it, it will be because politicians make it so and somehow convince just enough voters to support it. Stopping hard Brexit will take huge political bravery and great leadership.

And we have Theresa May.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:06 am

NonOxCol wrote:Genuine question: after the events of the last 8-9 years, how does anyone on the left retain any optimism whatsoever about how this all turns out?

I'm not optimistic, my friend
With friends, we'll live, not just exist, even if change is bad to worse
We'll experience pain, despair, laughter, contentment, exhilaration and baked goods
Stay living through all that, we need us all
I'll stand with anyone, brothers and sisters, with open hands, no violence, no harm
Stay with us when it's one's time of dying
I'm frightened, friends, no joke
I'm not ashamed to admit it

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:12 am

@gilsey

well at least I invented a new word today = "quotathon"

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:14 am

Or not

Quotathon
A conversation characterized by a majority of quotes from a particular movie or show.
B: we seriously just talked for an entire hour using just Simpsons quotes...

A: I know, that Simpsons quotathon was almost better than the lebowski quotathon I had with coworkers last week.

B: right?! I love hanging with Don, he's such a quotewhore

Urban Dictionary

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:14 am

Willow904 wrote:Newsnight last night was so depressing. All these old people moaning about how the EU had spent all this money on useless things in Ebwr Vale. Cut to Nick Clegg in front of one of the "useless" new buildings. Not a grey hair in sight, lots of young people milling about. Yep, the "useless" building was a state of the art technical college, being enthusiastically used by lots of young people who it was built for and who no doubt greatly appreciate it. What is it about spending money on the next generation that these golden oldie leave voters think is a waste of money?

What I found particularly depressing was the woman who said she didn't want to be "governed by people we don't know" (I wonder how many MPs, Assembly members or local councillors she 'knows', or can even name). As for blaming the EU for illegal immigrants and wanting to "get our justice system back" - words fail me.
Actually, the young people interviewed hit the nail on the head when they said that the old folk wanted to go back to when the steelworks was open and that immigration wasn't a problem - but fear of immigration was.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:23 am

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Newsnight last night was so depressing. All these old people moaning about how the EU had spent all this money on useless things in Ebwr Vale. Cut to Nick Clegg in front of one of the "useless" new buildings. Not a grey hair in sight, lots of young people milling about. Yep, the "useless" building was a state of the art technical college, being enthusiastically used by lots of young people who it was built for and who no doubt greatly appreciate it. What is it about spending money on the next generation that these golden oldie leave voters think is a waste of money?
What I found particularly depressing was the woman who said she didn't want to be "governed by people we don't know" (I wonder how many MPs, Assembly members or local councillors she 'knows', or can even name). As for blaming the EU for illegal immigrants and wanting to "get our justice system back" - words fail me.
Actually, the young people interviewed hit the nail on the head when they said that the old folk wanted to go back to when the steelworks was open and that immigration wasn't a problem - but fear of immigration was.

Here are some things they really do want, apparently.

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Dark blue passports really winds me up for some reason. I know the death penalty is far worse, but at least there are rational arguments on both sides and even our Parliament would manage to debate it properly. Dark blue passports - I don't even remotely understand it. I bloody love my passport and hate the idea of being forced to swap it.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:23 am

NonOxCol wrote:Genuine question: after the events of the last 8-9 years, how does anyone on the left retain any optimism whatsoever about how this all turns out? How do you convince yourself the Tories are somehow going to be screwed? They misrepresented the financial crisis to gain power, and it worked and still works. They destroyed the third party to sustain power. They have exploited a fringe party to move further right, and even that worked: they are more popular than they have been in a generation. They pulled off a jammy win in the Scotland referendum, and instead of learning from it, used it to stoke English nationalism and shaft Labour in a key heartland for god knows how long. And just as importantly as any political event until Brexit, they even managed to ride out Leveson and unleash their vile version of karma on Ed Miliband, whom I admired. And even that worked. And now Brexit is quite clearly going to be a right-wing coup at a time of piss-weak opposition, which was always patently obvious and one of my main reasons for opposing it so vehemently in spite of some fair arguments about the flaws of the EU project.

This Tory party is utterly revolting in every conceivable sense, yet they're winning big on everything. I genuinely don't know where you get your faith from any more. Every major event has turned out worse than we expected, and yet the biggest and most potentially nightmarish one of all is supposed to turn out better? I can remember a headline on here from the day the (previous) boundary changes were opposed by the LDs and it said "The Tories lose the next election today". That was what, five years ago? It was unnerving even then, but to read that sort of thing now...

Believe it or not, I'm not a natural pessimist. But at the moment, to be anything else seems ridiculous.

I agree with just about every word.

I've mentioned here before that I think there's a general trend in society, WW2 led to dramatic change imo because of the social class and gender mixing during the war effort. Since then I see a gradual reversion to what tc2 calls forelock-tugging. Labour is a victim of that trend and Conservatives are riding it to their benefit.

I don't see it changing without some external cataclysm, which I can't wish for. Climate change could do it but may be just as likely to make it worse.

Hope I haven't misunderstood tc2 there.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:29 am

NonOxCol wrote: Here are some things they really do want, apparently.

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Dark blue passports really winds me up for some reason. I know the death penalty is far worse, but at least there are rational arguments on both sides and even our Parliament would manage to debate it properly. Dark blue passports - I don't even remotely understand it. I bloody love my passport and hate the idea of being forced to swap it.

Why is the death penalty even on that list, wtf does it have to do with the EU?