Wednesday 29th March 2017

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howsillyofme1
First Secretary of State
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think that is a fairer criticism...not that I agree totally either, and linking all to Brexit, especially at the moment, will not fly with the voters as I see it. Link it to austerity (which is a Tory policy) and then as reality bites link austerity to Brexit

I think the point about Corbyn not thinking widely enough does have some truth to it though
I think he should bang away. Tory Brexit Cuts. Tory Brexit Tax Rises. Tory Brexit Nurses Shortage.

But you'd expect me to say that!

And I agree that he will need to....the difference is the timing

From personal experience and looking at the polls, May still has the confidence of the people to negotiate brexit and it is still seen as the right thing to do after the referendum

I think a gradual approach as public opinion evolves will have more effect.......

What this requires though is Corbyn detecting the change as soion as it starts to ahppen - rather than be left behind - and that is where I have my doubts as to whether he can do that sufficiently well. It is not easy to do though....
What if public opinion doesn't evolve? And if it does, what if the best way to avoid being behind public opinion is to be ahead of it?[/quote]


I accept the second point and tried to answer it in my post....I don't think being too far ahead helps but spotting the change and not being behind is very important, and then to exploit it.

That is in response to Tubby's comments on the link between Brexit and austerity though

It is such a fine line and I cannot say that I am right with any confidence, it is just gut feel. I am not saying he is wrong at all

As to what happens if public opinion stays where it is - well then we are Out and the Tories will have won, and it compounds the disaster of losing that election in 2015, without which we would not be here
gilsey
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by gilsey »

Eric_WLothian wrote: Actually, the young people interviewed hit the nail on the head when they said that the old folk wanted to go back to when the steelworks was open and that immigration wasn't a problem - but fear of immigration was.
Just going back to this re Farage.
Why do they fear immigration? Because they were told to by the Fail et al, and the BBC putting Farage forward relentlessly is just as culpable imo.
He was on the news just now, saying he was very happy today. :sick:

I'm talking about people in areas where there is little immigration btw, I can accept there are a few small areas where some older people may be genuinely disturbed by it.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
gilsey
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by gilsey »

howsillyofme1 wrote: the disaster of losing that election in 2015, without which we would not be here
:cry:
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
SpinningHugo
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

howsillyofme1 wrote:Hugo,

I think my list covers 99% of the responsibility.....if you want to blame everyone under the sun then that is up to you

I see it as your normal attempt to obfuscate and dilute the blame for the situation we are in now.....

Why would you not want to focus on Cameron and Osborne the two main arvhitects of the referendum and who could not deliver their voters after having decided to call it?
Osborne opposed the referendum.

As it happens, I think there were good reasons for the referendum.

See at length

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It isn't a good argument against it that we disapprove of the result.

And yes, the 2015 election result caused it. I blame Charlie Whelan for that, and all that followed his foolish lead.
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

gilsey wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: the disaster of losing that election in 2015, without which we would not be here
:cry:
exactly
I'm well aware wanting to change the past is impossible
my thoughts frequently find their way to what was lost
we've lost something good
howsillyofme1
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Hugo,

I think my list covers 99% of the responsibility.....if you want to blame everyone under the sun then that is up to you

I see it as your normal attempt to obfuscate and dilute the blame for the situation we are in now.....

Why would you not want to focus on Cameron and Osborne the two main arvhitects of the referendum and who could not deliver their voters after having decided to call it?
Osborne opposed the referendum.

As it happens, I think there were good reasons for the referendum.

See at length

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It isn't a good argument against it that we disapprove of the result.

And yes, the 2015 election result caused it. I blame Charlie Whelan for that, and all that followed his foolish lead.

Didn't think you would criticise Cameron and Osborne.....
SpinningHugo
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

Cameron made several mistakes.

First, as part of the "vow" given to Scotland during their referendum campaign, it should have been pledged that the UK would not leave the EU so long as Scotland wanted to Remain.

Second like other politicians before him, he shamelessly blamed the EU for the ills of the UK. UK politiicans love doing that is it gets them off the hook. His transformation into a passionate pro-European then lacked all credibility.

Third he neither managed his party nor the referendum campaign well.

But, I don't think Cameron had any choice but to call the referendum. His party wanted it, it was in their manifesto, and they had won a majority. As the result showed, there was a majority (or near majority) who favoured leaving the EU, however stupidly, and that is where the pressure had come from. Democracy in action, however much we may dislike the result.

Trying to pin Brexit on the evils of austerity looks a bit of a stretch to me. If Brexit is all caused by deeply unpopular Tory policies, why were they elected with a majority in 2015, and why are they on a rolling 16+ point average lead in the polls midterm? People don't usuually react against the status quo by voting Tory.

There is plenty of blame to go about.

Osborne is to blame for running a pro-cyclical fiscal policy, which is especially dumb when rates are at the zlb. His motive for doing so was to shrink the UK state. I don't think this had much to do with Brexit.

And again, children learn that you can't evade responsibility for your actions by pointing at other people who were evern more to blame. That doesn't excuse you.

I don't, for the avoidance of doubt, just blame Corbyn on the Labour side, I also blame all those who have failed to stand up for freedom of movement and who have as a result abandoned any attempt to stay in the Single Market. Those people are on what used to be my wing of the party (Reeves, Umunna etc).
howsillyofme1
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

SpinningHugo wrote:Cameron made several mistakes.

First, as part of the "vow" given to Scotland during their referendum campaign, it should have been pledged that the UK would not leave the EU so long as Scotland wanted to Remain.

Second like other politicians before him, he shamelessly blamed the EU for the ills of the UK. UK politiicans love doing that is it gets them off the hook. His transformation into a passionate pro-European then lacked all credibility.

Third he neither managed his party nor the referendum campaign well.

But, I don't think Cameron had any choice but to call the referendum. His party wanted it, it was in their manifesto, and they had won a majority. As the result showed, there was a majority (or near majority) who favoured leaving the EU, however stupidly, and that is where the pressure had come from. Democracy in action, however much we may dislike the result.

Trying to pin Brexit on the evils of austerity looks a bit of a stretch to me. If Brexit is all caused by deeply unpopular Tory policies, why were they elected with a majority in 2015, and why are they on a rolling 16+ point average lead in the polls midterm? People don't usuually react against the status quo by voting Tory.

There is plenty of blame to go about.

Osborne is to blame for running a pro-cyclical fiscal policy, which is especially dumb when rates are at the zlb. His motive for doing so was to shrink the UK state. I don't think this had much to do with Brexit.

And again, children learn that you can't evade responsibility for your actions by pointing at other people who were evern more to blame. That doesn't excuse you.

I don't, for the avoidance of doubt, just blame Corbyn on the Labour side, I also blame all those who have failed to stand up for freedom of movement and who have as a result abandoned any attempt to stay in the Single Market. Those people are on what used to be my wing of the party (Reeves, Umunna etc).
You are still trying to get out of the fact that the worst PM, and probably the worst CoE, have left chaos in their wake

The principle reason we are here now is that there was a referendum that was promised by Cameron due to pressure from within his own party and fearful of losing votes to UKIP. The fact he was in power to implement has many causative factors but the primary blame still goes on him

You can argue all you like and confusing the issue but someone has to be accountable and that is Mr Cameron...he was the Prime Minister who called the referendum, ensured that it was badly framed and he failed to deliver his own party's votes. Abley abetted by Mr Osborne
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Kelvin Hopins is happy. Socialism is now possible.

People like him give Blairite fixing a good name.
pk1
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by pk1 »

NonOxCol wrote:Genuine question: after the events of the last 8-9 years, how does anyone on the left retain any optimism whatsoever about how this all turns out? How do you convince yourself the Tories are somehow going to be screwed? They misrepresented the financial crisis to gain power, and it worked and still works. They destroyed the third party to sustain power. They have exploited a fringe party to move further right, and even that worked: they are more popular than they have been in a generation. They pulled off a jammy win in the Scotland referendum, and instead of learning from it, used it to stoke English nationalism and shaft Labour in a key heartland for god knows how long. And just as importantly as any political event until Brexit, they even managed to ride out Leveson and unleash their vile version of karma on Ed Miliband, whom I admired. And even that worked. And now Brexit is quite clearly going to be a right-wing coup at a time of piss-weak opposition, which was always patently obvious and one of my main reasons for opposing it so vehemently in spite of some fair arguments about the flaws of the EU project.

This Tory party is utterly revolting in every conceivable sense, yet they're winning big on everything. I genuinely don't know where you get your faith from any more. Every major event has turned out worse than we expected, and yet the biggest and most potentially nightmarish one of all is supposed to turn out better? I can remember a headline on here from the day the (previous) boundary changes were opposed by the LDs and it said "The Tories lose the next election today". That was what, five years ago? It was unnerving even then, but to read that sort of thing now...

Believe it or not, I'm not a natural pessimist. But at the moment, to be anything else seems ridiculous.
Thank you for this. I'm shocked at just how sad I feel today. It wouldn't be so bad if it was because of real dislike of the EU & EU regulations but I genuinely believe the vote was based on lies about immigration. Headlines screaming lies about immigrants & the belief that immigrants were somehow "coming over here stealing all our jobs, homes, our benefits & they send their child benefit that you taxpayers pay for, back from whence they came" are to blame & I find it all utterly depressing :(
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Willow904
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by Willow904 »

gilsey wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote: Actually, the young people interviewed hit the nail on the head when they said that the old folk wanted to go back to when the steelworks was open and that immigration wasn't a problem - but fear of immigration was.
Just going back to this re Farage.
Why do they fear immigration? Because they were told to by the Fail et al, and the BBC putting Farage forward relentlessly is just as culpable imo.
He was on the news just now, saying he was very happy today. :sick:

I'm talking about people in areas where there is little immigration btw, I can accept there are a few small areas where some older people may be genuinely disturbed by it.
The drip, drip of right wing tabloid propaganda is really quite disturbing. You point out to people that so and so they work with is from Romania or Poland or wherever and they're not at all like some prejudice they've been parroting and they'll be all like "oh, I don't mean them , good geezer "......", I mean all these other ones....."!

Classic scapegoating. It's worrying. Where will it end?
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
SpinningHugo
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Cameron made several mistakes.

First, as part of the "vow" given to Scotland during their referendum campaign, it should have been pledged that the UK would not leave the EU so long as Scotland wanted to Remain.

Second like other politicians before him, he shamelessly blamed the EU for the ills of the UK. UK politiicans love doing that is it gets them off the hook. His transformation into a passionate pro-European then lacked all credibility.

Third he neither managed his party nor the referendum campaign well.

But, I don't think Cameron had any choice but to call the referendum. His party wanted it, it was in their manifesto, and they had won a majority. As the result showed, there was a majority (or near majority) who favoured leaving the EU, however stupidly, and that is where the pressure had come from. Democracy in action, however much we may dislike the result.

Trying to pin Brexit on the evils of austerity looks a bit of a stretch to me. If Brexit is all caused by deeply unpopular Tory policies, why were they elected with a majority in 2015, and why are they on a rolling 16+ point average lead in the polls midterm? People don't usuually react against the status quo by voting Tory.

There is plenty of blame to go about.

Osborne is to blame for running a pro-cyclical fiscal policy, which is especially dumb when rates are at the zlb. His motive for doing so was to shrink the UK state. I don't think this had much to do with Brexit.

And again, children learn that you can't evade responsibility for your actions by pointing at other people who were evern more to blame. That doesn't excuse you.

I don't, for the avoidance of doubt, just blame Corbyn on the Labour side, I also blame all those who have failed to stand up for freedom of movement and who have as a result abandoned any attempt to stay in the Single Market. Those people are on what used to be my wing of the party (Reeves, Umunna etc).
You are still trying to get out of the fact that the worst PM, and probably the worst CoE, have left chaos in their wake

The principle reason we are here now is that there was a referendum that was promised by Cameron due to pressure from within his own party and fearful of losing votes to UKIP. The fact he was in power to implement has many causative factors but the primary blame still goes on him

You can argue all you like and confusing the issue but someone has to be accountable and that is Mr Cameron...he was the Prime Minister who called the referendum, ensured that it was badly framed and he failed to deliver his own party's votes. Abley abetted by Mr Osborne
I think you're mistaking me (again) with someone with a brief for Cameron and Osborne. I am no Tory.
pk1
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by pk1 »

Breaking news on Sky:
Angela Merkel has rejected Theresa May's calls for Brexit negotiations to run in parallel with defining the UK's future relationship with the EU

Yup, the negotiation is going to go really well....
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Likening the UK leaving the EU in the way it's been done as a declaration of war isn't nice and I'm uncomfortable making the comparison.
Please know I know it's not the same as battle with weapons, dead people, bombed out areas, civilisation broken. It's not the same -
taking people and country out of a trade agreement isn't a declaration of war, it's not war. The feelings of tremendous loss
experienced I've only felt when I see or read about losses due to war, privations, austerity, due to armed conflict.
Families frightened due to citizenship rights lost, collective insecurity over legal entitlements to property, income,
employment, pensions thrown into the air - happens during war. I've felt this a long time, since this past Summer.

The UK leaving the EU is a stylised Kabuki theatre-like declaration of war. Trade agreements, treaties, regulations
and cooperative tools decades in the making are abandoned, the war-gates opened by delivering a letter.
The human condition. History records millennia of human cooperation or non-cooperation.
When agreement couldn't be found, results for people were disruptive. When climate or other
environmental change occurred, people had to move to sustain themselves. That's what politics
is, isn't it? People coming to agreement, resolving disputes or demanding more power and/or
resources and using tools available to either take the resource by force or negotiation.
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

pk1 wrote:Breaking news on Sky:
Angela Merkel has rejected Theresa May's calls for Brexit negotiations to run in parallel with defining the UK's future relationship with the EU

Yup, the negotiation is going to go really well....
After reading T May's letter to Tusk wanting parallel trade negotiations alongside UK departure arrangements, I wrote the post above. That's substantial disagreement, you know?
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

pk1 wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:This Tory party is utterly revolting in every conceivable sense, yet they're winning big on everything. I genuinely don't know where you get your faith from any more. Every major event has turned out worse than we expected, and yet the biggest and most potentially nightmarish one of all is supposed to turn out better? I can remember a headline on here from the day the (previous) boundary changes were opposed by the LDs and it said "The Tories lose the next election today". That was what, five years ago? It was unnerving even then, but to read that sort of thing now...

Believe it or not, I'm not a natural pessimist. But at the moment, to be anything else seems ridiculous.
Thank you for this. I'm shocked at just how sad I feel today. It wouldn't be so bad if it was because of real dislike of the EU & EU regulations but I genuinely believe the vote was based on lies about immigration. Headlines screaming lies about immigrants & the belief that immigrants were somehow "coming over here stealing all our jobs, homes, our benefits & they send their child benefit that you taxpayers pay for, back from whence they came" are to blame & I find it all utterly depressing :(
(cJA edit)

Yes, it's unnecessary. The reason it's happening is because Tories don't want to have to admit they're crap leadership, unfit to run a concession stand, let alone a country.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

The Secret Barrister is unimpressed with Dianne Abbott misunderstanding the case of the man who made his wife drink bleach being spared jail. He/ she does allow that it can be seen as lenient, so maybe it doesn't make too much difference. But I don't know. Labour does well with lawyerly professionals, and I'd guess this stuff matters to them. Could be another group of votes they ship to the Lib Dems by aligning with more broadbrush campaigners.

Labour ought not to be short of decent legalitarian expertise.
HindleA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by HindleA »

Needless to say repeated easily proved lies by cock joke afficiando masquarading as a Minister during PIP debate.
NonOxCol
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

pk1 wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Genuine question: after the events of the last 8-9 years, how does anyone on the left retain any optimism whatsoever about how this all turns out? How do you convince yourself the Tories are somehow going to be screwed? They misrepresented the financial crisis to gain power, and it worked and still works. They destroyed the third party to sustain power. They have exploited a fringe party to move further right, and even that worked: they are more popular than they have been in a generation. They pulled off a jammy win in the Scotland referendum, and instead of learning from it, used it to stoke English nationalism and shaft Labour in a key heartland for god knows how long. And just as importantly as any political event until Brexit, they even managed to ride out Leveson and unleash their vile version of karma on Ed Miliband, whom I admired. And even that worked. And now Brexit is quite clearly going to be a right-wing coup at a time of piss-weak opposition, which was always patently obvious and one of my main reasons for opposing it so vehemently in spite of some fair arguments about the flaws of the EU project.

This Tory party is utterly revolting in every conceivable sense, yet they're winning big on everything. I genuinely don't know where you get your faith from any more. Every major event has turned out worse than we expected, and yet the biggest and most potentially nightmarish one of all is supposed to turn out better? I can remember a headline on here from the day the (previous) boundary changes were opposed by the LDs and it said "The Tories lose the next election today". That was what, five years ago? It was unnerving even then, but to read that sort of thing now...

Believe it or not, I'm not a natural pessimist. But at the moment, to be anything else seems ridiculous.
Thank you for this. I'm shocked at just how sad I feel today. It wouldn't be so bad if it was because of real dislike of the EU & EU regulations but I genuinely believe the vote was based on lies about immigration. Headlines screaming lies about immigrants & the belief that immigrants were somehow "coming over here stealing all our jobs, homes, our benefits & they send their child benefit that you taxpayers pay for, back from whence they came" are to blame & I find it all utterly depressing :(
Well I hope you didn't see the BBC News A50 jury from Dover a few minutes ago. I think The Road was less depressing.
NonOxCol
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

Nuttall on QT tomorrow.

Of course he is.
Eric_WLothian
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by Eric_WLothian »

Willow904 wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote: Actually, the young people interviewed hit the nail on the head when they said that the old folk wanted to go back to when the steelworks was open and that immigration wasn't a problem - but fear of immigration was.
Just going back to this re Farage.
Why do they fear immigration? Because they were told to by the Fail et al, and the BBC putting Farage forward relentlessly is just as culpable imo.
He was on the news just now, saying he was very happy today. :sick:

I'm talking about people in areas where there is little immigration btw, I can accept there are a few small areas where some older people may be genuinely disturbed by it.
The drip, drip of right wing tabloid propaganda is really quite disturbing. You point out to people that so and so they work with is from Romania or Poland or wherever and they're not at all like some prejudice they've been parroting and they'll be all like "oh, I don't mean them , good geezer "......", I mean all these other ones....."!

Classic scapegoating. It's worrying. Where will it end?
Agreed. The Newsnight interviews were in Ebbw Vale where there are 2-3% immigrants! One of the highest Brexit votes and an area which appears to have benefitted more than most from EU cash. But they didn't rebuild the steelworks... :roll:
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Read a post below the line elsewhere reminding me of something I'd not thought of before today.
The UK's former PMs and other influential leaders from all parties have commented on Brexit except one.
Dave Cameron
Anyone know what he's up to?
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Leaving the EU - what's happened so far?
Find out about some of the work the Government has undertaken to prepare for the UK leaving the EU.
This timeline will be updated on an ongoing basis.

https://www.planforbritain.gov.uk/
HindleA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... els-office" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lloyd’s of London will move jobs to new Brussels office
55DegreesNorth
Minister of State
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by 55DegreesNorth »

Evening folks,
Here's an interesting article about political liars, and how it pays for them to do it. Set in the America/Trump context, but equally applicable to the UK, Brexit, and one of our bumboils.
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article ... ps_support
SpinningHugo
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

HSOM has repeatedly pressed me on why i am so critical of Labour over Brexit and not the Tories. After all, there are far more Tory Brexiters, and they will be the ones carrying out Hard Brexit while Labour stands by. They are primarily to blame.

I think the answer on reflection is dishonesty. This takes two forms.

The first, and less serious, is that of the old school Lexiters. Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne have opposed the EU for decades and their actions before and after the referendum show they still hold the same views.

But, their dishonesty is in a way excusable. They were elected to lead. Party policy is pro EU. So they have to mouth that even when not believing it.

The second, and far worse, form has been demonstrated by the likes of Starmer and Umunna post art.50 passing Parliament without conditions. That is the "real fight starts now" stuff. Umunna, who followed the party whip on art 50 unlike the honourable 52, was arguing in the Independent today that we need to remain members of the single market. Clown.

This kind of dishonesty denies responsibility for what they have done. It is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Oppose Hard Brexit, save in the one actual vote that matters.

May, Lucas and Farron are all taking honest positions i think. May is a reluctant Brexiter. Lucas and Farron honestly oppose exit

But people telling me they'll now oppose Tory Brexit when they only just voted for it? They're bullshit merchants.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Back to politics

Sorry I was a bit narky this morning - and my opinion of Hugo is still the same and it is based on reading many years of his posts of here and CiF

The situation is now clear A50 has been invoked and we are on the road and now we will have to see the UK Government play its hand....it has got away with contradictio and obsfucation - helped by the fact the EU has actually kept quiet. Now it has been invoked we will see what the EU position will be an I doubtr it will be positive

I have made my position of the A50 vote very clear over the last few months - it was a sideshow and there was no chance of blocking it, hence blocking the result of the referendum without massive political damage to the party doing it ie Labour....and it would have been futile as we have seen that virtually no Tories made a stand on it

Now that we are outside that and we are no longer talking about the 'What' of leaving, we are talking of the 'How' - the referendum dealt with the 'What' but made no mention of the 'How' and the British electorate have not expressed 'their will' on this

I expect, perhaps demand' that Labour now vote to ensure that anythibng coming in front of Parliament is voted against where it will cause damage to the country......of course, some battles will have to be sacrificed but the general movement has to be against the Tory idea of Brexit. I strongly believe they will do that and will be very disappointed if they don't

Of course, to actually do anything some Tories will have to vote with Labour....and so Labour cannot do this on its own

As always has been, this is a Tory made mess....and any mitigation will need those Tories who prophese to be 'Remainers' to support Labour amendments, and vote against damaging Government proposals. I won't hold my breathe

To make the best of this Labour has to start acting as a united party and act as one. Stop attacking the leader, lay off the PLP and let us see what can be done to work with the other parties

The people doing this to us are, and have always been, the current UK Tory Government and now A50 is out of the way I hope we on here will have clear view of where to aim our fire.

May will be vulnerable as this all unravels......and that should be exploited

The EU Parliament have indicated today A50 is revokable so I remain optimistic that this will not come to pass
1. What do you think will come before Parliament? There will be two things of substance

First he "Great Repaal Bill". In practice this is the Great re-enatment Bill. It will re-enact (almost) all the EU law that has arisen since accession, It will give the government the power to amend it as it wishes. Labour will, no doubt, oppose this, but there is no real practical alternative.

Second, after two years we'll be presented with whatever half arsed deal the Tories can come up with. The alternatives will be accept, or reject and leave on WTO terms. The only option will be to accept.

2. All those who vote for something have responsibility for it. You can't duck responsibility by saying it would have happened anyway but for your vote. Under a three line whip Labour voted for Art 50 without conditions. There were 52 rebels. They do not share in the responsibility for the inevitable Hard Brexit that is now coming. That is not the same as saying, as you accuse me of, that the responsibility for this disaster solely lies with Corbyn or Labour. That is obviously false, and silly, But they do have a share of the blame. Other persons and parties do not.

3. Someone like Chuka Umunna, who was arguing today that Labour should campaign to remain in the single market, deserve nothing but mockery. He voted for this. Too late now to say he opposes it. By contrast, Mary Creagh, Stella Creasy and Owen Smith may still be taken seriously as they opposed this at the relevant time.

Added.

4. You (and AK and PfY) always see this in party political terms. ie is it good or bad for Labour electorally to take this or that position on the EU.

I think this is irrelevant and indeed immoral. It is irrelevant because Labour will lose the next election come what may. It is immoral because it is to ignore the substance of what is happening. Hard Brexit will make us all worse off, meaning we cannot pursue all the other good goals we wish for. Labour's position of nodding along to Hard Brexit may be electorally a good choice (though the evidence for that is missing). Morally it is appalling.
I've been busy at work and will now read the rest of the thread, but

HUGO I AM INCANDESCENT at what you say here. I have said CLEARLY and OFTEN that in my opinion the best interests of remaining in the EU are served by respecting the result of the referendum, waiting for a change in the mood and then campaigning for Remain.

Hugo you love to entwine the problems with the leadership of Labour and the Brexit disaster.

They are TWO SEPARATE issues.

Please do NOT put words in my mouth. Thank you.
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Ed Miliband

"...national unity must be earned and not just asserted, and it must be shown in deeds and not just in words....we are a long, long way from it..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39431645" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

SpinningHugo wrote:HSOM has repeatedly pressed me on why i am so critical of Labour over Brexit and not the Tories. After all, there are far more Tory Brexiters, and they will be the ones carrying out Hard Brexit while Labour stands by. They are primarily to blame.

I think the answer on reflection is dishonesty. This takes two forms.

The first, and less serious, is that of the old school Lexiters. Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne have opposed the EU for decades and their actions before and after the referendum show they still hold the same views.

But, their dishonesty is in a way excusable. They were elected to lead. Party policy is pro EU. So they have to mouth that even when not believing it.

The second, and far worse, form has been demonstrated by the likes of Starmer and Umunna post art.50 passing Parliament without conditions. That is the "real fight starts now" stuff. Umunna, who followed the party whip on art 50 unlike the honourable 52, was arguing in the Independent today that we need to remain members of the single market. Clown.

This kind of dishonesty denies responsibility for what they have done. It is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Oppose Hard Brexit, save in the one actual vote that matters.

May, Lucas and Farron are all taking honest positions i think. May is a reluctant Brexiter. Lucas and Farron honestly oppose exit

But people telling me they'll now oppose Tory Brexit when they only just voted for it? They're bullshit merchants.

Well you have tried to give an answer and I suppose we should be grateful but I think you are, as normal, over-simplifying and using language that is, to say the least bizarre.

I think you have described yourself in that last sentence

I am no fan of Umunna but your description of him is ridiculous....and to say that may is taken an honest position....words fail me

For someone who clearly has such a high opinion of himself, your arguments really do lack any substance
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by HindleA »

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1589725 ... or-between" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


There seems to have been a revolving door between CH2M and HS2 which must be investigated - Andy McDonald
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

citizenJA wrote:Ed Miliband

"...national unity must be earned and not just asserted, and it must be shown in deeds and not just in words....we are a long, long way from it..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39431645" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He's a class above isn't he?
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Thanks to Paul for calling out Hugo as well

I saw his (added after i had replied) suggestion that AK, Paul and I only see this in political terms......

For the absence of doubt I will say what I believe

What

The British electorate voted to Leave last June.

A silly decision in my view but the decision was clear and despite any misgivings about the lies, the arguments, the question of 'advisory' I am of the view that Labour party could not sensibly go against that vote

The A50 debate is the direct link to the implementation of the vote - in some ways Labour would have been helped if the Supreme Court had not made that decision

In this sense you could say my view is political in that I think it would have done Labour a lot of harm to be seen to go against that vote

As is often the case with Hugo he only see things in black and white and I think this approach was the only way to get some traction on holding the Government to account

How

The link with the referendum is broken now....the result has been delivered (or the start of it anyway) and the bit no one discussed is up for strong debate and challenge

If Labour had opposed A50 we would still be where we are now but any amendment or challenge Labour made would be presented as part of a plot to deny the referendum result....and again we are back to square one

Labour can sensibly argue now that they have accepted the 'What' but there is no agreement on what the relationship looks like and there is then the opportunity to work with other parties to alter (or even reverse as that door seems to be ajar) the terms from what May would want


The reality is that May has a slim majority and there could be significant numbers of people who are now prepared to vote for amendments that they did not beforehand...if they don't then May wins but that is down to the Parliamentary arithmetic

As a final point, I think some on here see Brexit, and the A50 vote, as a moral issue. I am not so sure as I think it is mainly political - there are a number of different outcomes that could arise. Over here we have had a lot of referenda on the EU and I have never seen it portrayed as a moral issue over a political one. In any case it is not a moral issue such as capital punishment, freedom for women to choose or many other things. I know some non-EU immigrants who found the EU free movement immoral and discriminatory (I don't completely agree with them by the way) and are actually very glad that it is being stopped

I do not say I am at all right in all these but I have made my decisions based on what I have seen and read, and listed to. I have not seen any argument on here that changes my mind, although some posts have made me think hard
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PorFavor »

I feel rather diminished today. If that makes sense.
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by HindleA »

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... emolition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Council estates: why demolition is anything but the solution
PorFavor
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PorFavor »

PorFavor wrote:I feel rather diminished today. If that makes sense.

Here I am, bearing my sole (as the fish waiter said), and everyone shuns me.

Sob.
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

The 2016 UK EU referendum result and action taken by Tory government wasn't an environmental disaster, not even a macro-economic crisis but a wholly human choice made by this UK leadership. Current Tory government they may never claim they didn't have a choice to proceed with this action, they did and do. The citizenship status and entitlements granted through the UK-EU relationship existing for decades are jeopardised. People aren't chess board pieces owned and operated by more powerful people. It's wrong. Human beings' lives are toyed with, people subjected to a personally hellish uncertainty and that's the choice Tory government made.
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by HindleA »

PF Getting drenched on the bonny bonny banks of Loch Lomond,might jump in to get drier.I hear you comrade.FWIW I don't largely because if I further diminish you'll need an electron microscope to see me.
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PorFavor »

HindleA wrote:PF Getting drenched on the bonny bonny banks of Loch Lomond,might jump in to get drier.I hear you comrade.FWIW I don't largely because if I further diminish you'll need an electron microscope to see me.
What - no church hall?
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

Sweet Jesus...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I cannot deal with this level of naivety/cognitive dissonance. I just can't.
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I feel rather diminished today. If that makes sense.
Here I am, bearing my sole (as the fish waiter said), and everyone shuns me.

Sob.
I'm here
but I'm embarrassed how badly I wrote the Kabuki theatre analogy thing up the thread
I'm too tired and emotionally distraught to do it over now
hi
:rock:
:heart:
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

NonOxCol wrote:Sweet Jesus...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I cannot deal with this level of naivety/cognitive dissonance. I just can't.
I know.
I read that too
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PorFavor »

citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I feel rather diminished today. If that makes sense.
Here I am, bearing my sole (as the fish waiter said), and everyone shuns me.

Sob.
I'm here
but I'm embarrassed how badly I wrote the Kabuki theatre analogy thing up the thread
I'm too tired and emotionally distraught to do it over now
hi
:rock:
:heart:
Hello, there. I knew you knew how I feel.
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by HindleA »

PF I have a worldwide ban in place as far as church halls go.It was only the once ,and I promised not to repeat,but no avail.
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by HindleA »

Cheering myself up with a visit to the Cemetery tomorrow,may swim.
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:PF Getting drenched on the bonny bonny banks of Loch Lomond,might jump in to get drier.I hear you comrade.FWIW I don't largely because if I further diminish you'll need an electron microscope to see me.
I started thinking of everyone who's made my life worth living today and you were very near the top of the list
Has turquoise Tarquin been recruited by Tory government as lead negotiator yet?
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

PorFavor wrote:I feel rather diminished today. If that makes sense.
No you've got it wrong.

You are henceforth PorFavorGlobal

Get a grip ;-)
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PorFavor »

HindleA wrote:Cheering myself up with a visit to the Cemetery tomorrow,may swim.
I'd ask you to explain but . . .
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:Cheering myself up with a visit to the Cemetery tomorrow,may swim.
Please explain
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

I am about to change my name to PaulfromGlobalshire
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Wednesday 29th March 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

JA is now GlobalCitizenJA
Locked