Wednesday 29th March 2017

[Willow904]

Here are some things they really do want, apparently.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dark blue passports really winds me up for some reason. I know the death penalty is far worse, but at least there are rational arguments on both sides and even our Parliament would manage to debate it properly. Dark blue passports - I don't even remotely understand it. I bloody love my passport and hate the idea of being forced to swap it.

Why is the death penalty even on that list, wtf does it have to do with the EU?

The death penalty is prohibited by the EU.

According to Wiki, Belarus is the only European country that still has the death penalty. We want to be Belarus, apparently.

[Eric_WLothian]

Here are some things they really do want, apparently.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dark blue passports really winds me up for some reason. I know the death penalty is far worse, but at least there are rational arguments on both sides and even our Parliament would manage to debate it properly. Dark blue passports - I don't even remotely understand it. I bloody love my passport and hate the idea of being forced to swap it.

I could go along with reinstating incandescent light bulbs though

[tinyclanger2]

I'll give you incandescent ....
(the morning I've had)

[PorFavor]

I could go along with reinstating incandescent light bulbs though

So could I. Although I do have a secret store of them. I could do you a good deal . . .

[NonOxCol]

Yep, this is definitely priority number one for Jacob Ress-Mogg, IDS, Bill Cash and the Daily Mail's puppet:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

Here are some things they really do want, apparently.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dark blue passports really winds me up for some reason. I know the death penalty is far worse, but at least there are rational arguments on both sides and even our Parliament would manage to debate it properly. Dark blue passports - I don't even remotely understand it. I bloody love my passport and hate the idea of being forced to swap it.

Why is the death penalty even on that list, wtf does it have to do with the EU?

The death penalty is prohibited by the EU.

According to Wiki, Belarus is the only European country that still has the death penalty. We want to be Belarus, apparently.

It is only 36% even for that. Quite reasonable numbers overall.

Does anyone really care about passport colour?

And only 9% wanted smoking in pubs brought back. Which is good.

18 point Tory lead with Labour on 25% of course.

Could this be the low point? Will there be less focus on Brexit now, on which Labour has represented the 0%?

[howsillyofme1]

Back to politics

Sorry I was a bit narky this morning - and my opinion of Hugo is still the same and it is based on reading many years of his posts of here and CiF

The situation is now clear A50 has been invoked and we are on the road and now we will have to see the UK Government play its hand....it has got away with contradictio and obsfucation - helped by the fact the EU has actually kept quiet. Now it has been invoked we will see what the EU position will be an I doubtr it will be positive

I have made my position of the A50 vote very clear over the last few months - it was a sideshow and there was no chance of blocking it, hence blocking the result of the referendum without massive political damage to the party doing it ie Labour....and it would have been futile as we have seen that virtually no Tories made a stand on it

Now that we are outside that and we are no longer talking about the 'What' of leaving, we are talking of the 'How' - the referendum dealt with the 'What' but made no mention of the 'How' and the British electorate have not expressed 'their will' on this

I expect, perhaps demand' that Labour now vote to ensure that anythibng coming in front of Parliament is voted against where it will cause damage to the country......of course, some battles will have to be sacrificed but the general movement has to be against the Tory idea of Brexit. I strongly believe they will do that and will be very disappointed if they don't

Of course, to actually do anything some Tories will have to vote with Labour....and so Labour cannot do this on its own

As always has been, this is a Tory made mess....and any mitigation will need those Tories who prophese to be 'Remainers' to support Labour amendments, and vote against damaging Government proposals. I won't hold my breathe

To make the best of this Labour has to start acting as a united party and act as one. Stop attacking the leader, lay off the PLP and let us see what can be done to work with the other parties

The people doing this to us are, and have always been, the current UK Tory Government and now A50 is out of the way I hope we on here will have clear view of where to aim our fire.

May will be vulnerable as this all unravels......and that should be exploited

The EU Parliament have indicated today A50 is revokable so I remain optimistic that this will not come to pass

[PorFavor]

Yep, this is definitely priority number one for Jacob Ress-Mogg, IDS, Bill Cash and the Daily Mail's puppet:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very Donald Trump.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Back to politics

Sorry I was a bit narky this morning - and my opinion of Hugo is still the same and it is based on reading many years of his posts of here and CiF

The situation is now clear A50 has been invoked and we are on the road and now we will have to see the UK Government play its hand....it has got away with contradictio and obsfucation - helped by the fact the EU has actually kept quiet. Now it has been invoked we will see what the EU position will be an I doubtr it will be positive

I have made my position of the A50 vote very clear over the last few months - it was a sideshow and there was no chance of blocking it, hence blocking the result of the referendum without massive political damage to the party doing it ie Labour....and it would have been futile as we have seen that virtually no Tories made a stand on it

Now that we are outside that and we are no longer talking about the 'What' of leaving, we are talking of the 'How' - the referendum dealt with the 'What' but made no mention of the 'How' and the British electorate have not expressed 'their will' on this

I expect, perhaps demand' that Labour now vote to ensure that anythibng coming in front of Parliament is voted against where it will cause damage to the country......of course, some battles will have to be sacrificed but the general movement has to be against the Tory idea of Brexit. I strongly believe they will do that and will be very disappointed if they don't

Of course, to actually do anything some Tories will have to vote with Labour....and so Labour cannot do this on its own

As always has been, this is a Tory made mess....and any mitigation will need those Tories who prophese to be 'Remainers' to support Labour amendments, and vote against damaging Government proposals. I won't hold my breathe

To make the best of this Labour has to start acting as a united party and act as one. Stop attacking the leader, lay off the PLP and let us see what can be done to work with the other parties

The people doing this to us are, and have always been, the current UK Tory Government and now A50 is out of the way I hope we on here will have clear view of where to aim our fire.

May will be vulnerable as this all unravels......and that should be exploited

The EU Parliament have indicated today A50 is revokable so I remain optimistic that this will not come to pass

It is hard to be optimistic this morning for obvious reasons, but this seems a reasonable summary of things.

History is never over, struggles are never totally lost, things are never irreversibly the same for ever more.

[Eric_WLothian]

Yep, this is definitely priority number one for Jacob Ress-Mogg, IDS, Bill Cash and the Daily Mail's puppet:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very Donald Trump.

Ah - but the Donald has the edge here. He has clean coal while we only have the dirty black stuff.

“My administration is putting an end to the war on coal,” Trump said. “We’re going to have clean coal, really clean coal.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tru ... 637062e61d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

Back to politics

Sorry I was a bit narky this morning - and my opinion of Hugo is still the same and it is based on reading many years of his posts of here and CiF

The situation is now clear A50 has been invoked and we are on the road and now we will have to see the UK Government play its hand....it has got away with contradictio and obsfucation - helped by the fact the EU has actually kept quiet. Now it has been invoked we will see what the EU position will be an I doubtr it will be positive

I have made my position of the A50 vote very clear over the last few months - it was a sideshow and there was no chance of blocking it, hence blocking the result of the referendum without massive political damage to the party doing it ie Labour....and it would have been futile as we have seen that virtually no Tories made a stand on it

Now that we are outside that and we are no longer talking about the 'What' of leaving, we are talking of the 'How' - the referendum dealt with the 'What' but made no mention of the 'How' and the British electorate have not expressed 'their will' on this

I expect, perhaps demand' that Labour now vote to ensure that anythibng coming in front of Parliament is voted against where it will cause damage to the country......of course, some battles will have to be sacrificed but the general movement has to be against the Tory idea of Brexit. I strongly believe they will do that and will be very disappointed if they don't

Of course, to actually do anything some Tories will have to vote with Labour....and so Labour cannot do this on its own

As always has been, this is a Tory made mess....and any mitigation will need those Tories who prophese to be 'Remainers' to support Labour amendments, and vote against damaging Government proposals. I won't hold my breathe

To make the best of this Labour has to start acting as a united party and act as one. Stop attacking the leader, lay off the PLP and let us see what can be done to work with the other parties

The people doing this to us are, and have always been, the current UK Tory Government and now A50 is out of the way I hope we on here will have clear view of where to aim our fire.

May will be vulnerable as this all unravels......and that should be exploited

The EU Parliament have indicated today A50 is revokable so I remain optimistic that this will not come to pass

1. What do you think will come before Parliament? There will be two things of substance

First he "Great Repaal Bill". In practice this is the Great re-enatment Bill. It will re-enact (almost) all the EU law that has arisen since accession, It will give the government the power to amend it as it wishes. Labour will, no doubt, oppose this, but there is no real practical alternative.

Second, after two years we'll be presented with whatever half arsed deal the Tories can come up with. The alternatives will be accept, or reject and leave on WTO terms. The only option will be to accept.

2. All those who vote for something have responsibility for it. You can't duck responsibility by saying it would have happened anyway but for your vote. Under a three line whip Labour voted for Art 50 without conditions. There were 52 rebels. They do not share in the responsibility for the inevitable Hard Brexit that is now coming. That is not the same as saying, as you accuse me of, that the responsibility for this disaster solely lies with Corbyn or Labour. That is obviously false, and silly, But they do have a share of the blame. Other persons and parties do not.

3. Someone like Chuka Umunna, who was arguing today that Labour should campaign to remain in the single market, deserve nothing but mockery. He voted for this. Too late now to say he opposes it. By contrast, Mary Creagh, Stella Creasy and Owen Smith may still be taken seriously as they opposed this at the relevant time.

Added.

4. You (and AK and PfY) always see this in party political terms. ie is it good or bad for Labour electorally to take this or that position on the EU.

I think this is irrelevant and indeed immoral. It is irrelevant because Labour will lose the next election come what may. It is immoral because it is to ignore the substance of what is happening. Hard Brexit will make us all worse off, meaning we cannot pursue all the other good goals we wish for. Labour's position of nodding along to Hard Brexit may be electorally a good choice (though the evidence for that is missing). Morally it is appalling.

[Willow904]

Yep, this is definitely priority number one for Jacob Ress-Mogg, IDS, Bill Cash and the Daily Mail's puppet:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very Donald Trump.

I've just two words in response to that.

Acid Rain.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Amusing to note Tim Farron using the phrase "bargain basement Brexit" last night.

Of course, a certain other politician did this recently - and EXTREMELY SERIOUS AND RESPECTED POLITICAL JOURNALISTS promptly sneered at them, because of course all the leave-voting plebs out there see a "bargain" as a good thing"! Don't they??

Or was it, just possibly, the messenger rather than the message? Perish the thought, eh

[SpinningHugo]

Amusing to note Tim Farron using the phrase "bargain basement Brexit" last night.

Of course, a certain other politician did this recently - and EXTREMELY SERIOUS AND RESPECTED POLITICAL JOURNALISTS promptly sneered at them, because of course all the leave-voting plebs out there see a "bargain" as a good thing"! Don't they??

Or was it, just possibly, the messenger rather than the message? Perish the thought, eh

Just as stupid coming out of Farron's mouth. I don't consider him very able, do you?

So no, both messenger and message on this occasion.

[howsillyofme1]

In response to the comment above:

1. We will have to see what comes before Parliament....and what votes are called. I expect Labour to oppose the things that will enact the Tory vision of the future Britain....what the actual votes will be on, neither you or I know

On the final vote, again we do not know what this will mean at this time. We have heard what David Davis thinks it will mean but circumstances may change...and things will develop I am sure. There may be a 'reject and revoke A50' clause for all we know...depends how things develop.

2. That is your view. You will never vote Labour so I don't think your view is that relevant either. I will not repeat my arguments again...and just remind you that even if Labour had voted against then we would still be in the same position as we are now.

The Labour blame for the situation we are in now is miniscule compared to the Tories....I would prefer we concentrate on criticising them to be honest

3. Not and MP I like but your attack is unwarranted, and again is a misdirection from who is to blame...the Tories!


As all your posts this strident assumption of being correct and not seeing any other potential paths or outcomes........

[howsillyofme1]

apologies to TC2 and Willow.....don't want to get off on the bad foot again......

[SpinningHugo]

In response to the comment above:

1. We will have to see what comes before Parliament....and what votes are called. I expect Labour to oppose the things that will enact the Tory vision of the future Britain....what the actual votes will be on, neither you or I know

On the final vote, again we do not know what this will mean at this time. We have heard what David Davis thinks it will mean but circumstances may change...and things will develop I am sure. There may be a 'reject and revoke A50' clause for all we know...depends how things develop.

2. That is your view. You will never vote Labour so I don't think your view is that relevant either. I will not repeat my arguments again...and just remind you that even if Labour had voted against then we would still be in the same position as we are now.

The Labour blame for the situation we are in now is miniscule compared to the Tories....I would prefer we concentrate on criticising them to be honest

3. Not and MP I like but your attack is unwarranted, and again is a misdirection from who is to blame...the Tories!


As all your posts this strident assumption of being correct and not seeing any other potential paths or outcomes........

On 1. Yes we do. It has all been announced. See above. What other votes could there be? Perhaps you could specify some? Even speculatively?

[tinyclanger2]

hsom no problem!

[SpinningHugo]

Great to see Corbyn focus on Brexit at PMQs. It is, as he rightly spotted, the only issue today.

The real fight starts now!

[howsillyofme1]

I response to above:

Where have all the votes been announced? I haven't seen the bill and I haven't seen how the passage through Parliament will be managed

Please provide a link to all the parliamentary business over the next two years with all the clauses to be voted on and the timetable....also to all the amendments that have been proposed to said bill by the opposition, and the response to any votes on other amendments in the Lords?

The Government has set out what it would like to do but there is no detail

When the amendments were discussed all davis said was is that there will be votes and Parliament could have its say then......that is all

[AnatolyKasparov]

No I don't particularly rate Farron, SH (though I did want him to be LibDem leader after the GE and thought he would do a better job of it than he has done)

As so often, my ire was really directed at our solipistic and incestuous "political media" class. They bear a major responsibility for where we are today, without question.

[NonOxCol]

Great to see Corbyn focus on Brexit at PMQs. It is, as he rightly spotted, the only issue today.

The real fight starts now!

He really needs to fuck off. I am done with him. Police budgets and schools. Today. Robertson doing his job for him yet again. Total bloody embarrassment.

[SpinningHugo]

I response to above:

Where have all the votes been announced? I haven't seen the bill and I haven't seen how the passage through Parliament will be managed

Please provide a link to all the parliamentary business over the next two years with all the clauses to be voted on and the timetable....also to all the amendments that have been proposed to said bill by the opposition, and the response to any votes on other amendments in the Lords?

The Government has set out what it would like to do but there is no detail

When the amendments were discussed all davis said was is that there will be votes and Parliament could have its say then......that is all

They've been announced by the government over the last 6 moths. were you not paying attention? We'll get a Great Repeal (sic) Bill and a vote on the final deal. That is it.

Again, great to have these predictions of many more votes to come from you. Always good to have verifiable claims made. That we can then return to in due course.

[howsillyofme1]

Great to see Corbyn focus on Brexit at PMQs. It is, as he rightly spotted, the only issue today.

The real fight starts now!

He really needs to fuck off. I am done with him. Police budgets and schools. Today. Robertson doing his job for him yet again. Total bloody embarrassment.

Disagree......I watched in and you assessment did not reflect what I saw

Robertson asked an okay question (for the umpteenth time)

Don't police budgets and schools matter anymore?

What is the point on asking about Brexit? There is a statement later today, and the public seem to be behind May's approach at the moment so it is an easy subject for her

Brexit will be more difficult for her in months to come as the details become clearer....

[howsillyofme1]

I response to above:

Where have all the votes been announced? I haven't seen the bill and I haven't seen how the passage through Parliament will be managed

Please provide a link to all the parliamentary business over the next two years with all the clauses to be voted on and the timetable....also to all the amendments that have been proposed to said bill by the opposition, and the response to any votes on other amendments in the Lords?

The Government has set out what it would like to do but there is no detail

When the amendments were discussed all davis said was is that there will be votes and Parliament could have its say then......that is all

They've been announced by the government over the last 6 moths. were you not paying attention? We'll get a Great Repeal (sic) Bill and a vote on the final deal. That is it.

Again, great to have these predictions of many more votes to come from you. Always good to have verifiable claims made. That we can then return to in due course.

So that bill will not be amendable then?

Have you actually seen the bill to speak with such authority?

I have heard a lot of what the Tories say....how much of it bears scrutiny and is linked to reality is another thing altogether

We were not going to have a white paper on the A50 bill either....until the day before the bill was presented to parliament

[Willow904]

No mention of article 127 in May's letter.

We've notified we're leaving the EU and we're leaving the European Atomic Energy Community. (Implications for Hinkley?)

Does anyone know if we're now officially leaving the EEA as well? Or do we have to formally notify? Does parliament have to repeal the 1993 EEA act as a consequence of invoking article 50 or is it a choice being made by the majority Tory government?

[PorFavor]

Donald Tusk is saying that the EU will now be engaging in "damage control" and will be protecting the interests of the remaining member states.

He seems genuinely sad. As am I.

[howsillyofme1]

No mention of article 127 in May's letter.

We've notified we're leaving the EU and we're leaving the European Atomic Energy Community. (Implications for Hinkley?)

Does anyone know if we're now officially leaving the EEA as well? Or do we have to formally notify? Does parliament have to repeal the 1993 EEA act as a consequence of invoking article 50 or is it a choice being made by the majority Tory government?

I am not sure Willow, and it is a good question....until we see this Repeal Bill and the contents, as well as the use of Executive Power it is difficult to say how the actual mechanism to withdraw will be managed at the start, never mind what it will look like at the end

I assume the Tories will try to keep controversial stuff out of the Bill and in the hands of the Executive as the risk of amendments will be high.....and I would imagine will not be as easy to push through as the A50 as the 'will of the people' has now reached its limit

[AnatolyKasparov]

Great to see Corbyn focus on Brexit at PMQs. It is, as he rightly spotted, the only issue today.

The real fight starts now!

He really needs to fuck off. I am done with him. Police budgets and schools. Today. Robertson doing his job for him yet again. Total bloody embarrassment.

Um, May makes the statement on A50 directly after PMQs.

She would just have said "wait for my statement" had JC asked questions about it then.

Political journalists know this of course, but affect fake outrage nonetheless. I am more surprised to see you falling for it, however.

[howsillyofme1]

Donald Tusk is saying that the EU will now be engaging in "damage control" and will be protecting the interests of the remaining member states.

He seems genuinely sad. As am I.

I am sad too....it means a lot to me being European...and living on the Continent (albeit it outside the EU) brings it home

[AnatolyKasparov]

Yes, it is a sad day. Which makes it all the more important that people direct their anger where it really belongs.

(not least at the person who wanted to be PM because they thought they "would be quite good at it" and later said they expected to "walk" the Brexit referendum)

[PorFavor]

Threats, presented in black and white, to weaken security links are insane.

[SpinningHugo]

Yes, it is a sad day. Which makes it all the more important that people direct their anger where it really belongs.

(not least at the person who wanted to be PM because they thought they "would be quite good at it" and later said they expected to "walk" the Brexit referendum)

There isn't one person.

There is plenty of responsibility to go around. I blame all of those in part responsible (though I know some are more to blame than others).

If A., B and C are each responsible for bad thing X, it doesn't exculpate C to show that A and B were more responsible than he was.

Go support D, someone who was not responsible at all, and indeed consistently opposed it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Great to see Corbyn focus on Brexit at PMQs. It is, as he rightly spotted, the only issue today.

The real fight starts now!

He really needs to fuck off. I am done with him. Police budgets and schools. Today. Robertson doing his job for him yet again. Total bloody embarrassment.

Um, May makes the statement on A50 directly after PMQs.

She would just have said "wait for my statement" had JC asked questions about it then.

Political journalists know this of course, but affect fake outrage nonetheless. I am more surprised to see you falling for it, however.

He should still tie Tory Hard Brexit in with the schools and police cuts, because it's making us poorer. Tory Hard Brexit Cuts.

He doesn't join dots like he should.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yes, it is a sad day. Which makes it all the more important that people direct their anger where it really belongs.

(not least at the person who wanted to be PM because they thought they "would be quite good at it" and later said they expected to "walk" the Brexit referendum)

Yep, he's definitely the main man, by an absolute mile.

[howsillyofme1]

Threats, presented in black and white, to weaken security links are insane.

Yes, PF - I saw that and thought it was odd...the link between leaving and having to go to WTO (not sure it is quite that easy either) and then go immediately to security co-operation

Surely we can co-operate on security without a trade (or any other) deal...they are two separate issues surely?

I would have thought that some things should be almost outside the overall deal - security co-operation and the status of residents, for example and should not be used as negotiating threats

[PorFavor]

Yes, it is a sad day. Which makes it all the more important that people direct their anger where it really belongs.

(not least at the person who wanted to be PM because they thought they "would be quite good at it" and later said they expected to "walk" the Brexit referendum)

Yep, he's definitely the main man, by an absolute mile.

And where is he? And, yes, he is still of relevance.

Edited to add -

To "Brexit", I mean.

[howsillyofme1]

[
He really needs to fuck off. I am done with him. Police budgets and schools. Today. Robertson doing his job for him yet again. Total bloody embarrassment.

Um, May makes the statement on A50 directly after PMQs.

She would just have said "wait for my statement" had JC asked questions about it then.

Political journalists know this of course, but affect fake outrage nonetheless. I am more surprised to see you falling for it, however.

He should still tie Tory Hard Brexit in with the schools and police cuts, because it's making us poorer. Tory Hard Brexit Cuts.

He doesn't join dots like he should.

I think that is a fairer criticism...not that I agree totally either, and linking all to Brexit, especially at the moment, will not fly with the voters as I see it. Link it to austerity (which is a Tory policy) and then as reality bites link austerity to Brexit

I think the point about Corbyn not thinking widely enough does have some truth to it though

[AnatolyKasparov]

He really needs to fuck off. I am done with him. Police budgets and schools. Today. Robertson doing his job for him yet again. Total bloody embarrassment.

Um, May makes the statement on A50 directly after PMQs.

She would just have said "wait for my statement" had JC asked questions about it then.

Political journalists know this of course, but affect fake outrage nonetheless. I am more surprised to see you falling for it, however.

He should still tie Tory Hard Brexit in with the schools and police cuts, because it's making us poorer. Tory Hard Brexit Cuts.

He doesn't join dots like he should.

A reasonable comment with which I do not disagree.

[howsillyofme1]

Yes, it is a sad day. Which makes it all the more important that people direct their anger where it really belongs.

(not least at the person who wanted to be PM because they thought they "would be quite good at it" and later said they expected to "walk" the Brexit referendum)

There isn't one person.

There is plenty of responsibility to go around. I blame all of those in part responsible (though I know some are more to blame than others).

If A., B and C are each responsible for bad thing X, it doesn't exculpate C to show that A and B were more responsible than he was.

Go support D, someone who was not responsible at all, and indeed consistently opposed it.

Who can fault such logic!

My poor sister who actually voted for Brexit, unlike Cameron and May, is actually more responsible than many others for the situation in the Hugo view of the world

or perhaps what he posted is just absolute crap!

I don't have enough ire to go round blaming millions of people in lots of different ways

My list of those to blame is:

Cameron (stupid referendum)
Osborne (austeriy led to conditions that made Leave more likely!)
Gove/Johnson (for using Brexit to try and further their careers)
May (for her approach to Brexit)
Tories in general (I blame them for a lot of things anyway)
Gisela Stuart/Kate Hoey (for trying to undermine Labour and taking on a vocal role - although they are lower on the list than others)

There are others such as Farage but at least he was consistent...the ones above should have known/behaved better

Just go on blaming everyone if you want Hugo, although you never seem to mention Tories do you?

[gilsey]

Why is the death penalty even on that list, wtf does it have to do with the EU?

The death penalty is prohibited by the EU.

According to Wiki, Belarus is the only European country that still has the death penalty. We want to be Belarus, apparently.

I know, but we abolished it independently didn't we?
Just had a horrible thought that maybe we didn't, and I've forgotten?

[SpinningHugo]

Yes, it is a sad day. Which makes it all the more important that people direct their anger where it really belongs.

(not least at the person who wanted to be PM because they thought they "would be quite good at it" and later said they expected to "walk" the Brexit referendum)

There isn't one person.

There is plenty of responsibility to go around. I blame all of those in part responsible (though I know some are more to blame than others).

If A., B and C are each responsible for bad thing X, it doesn't exculpate C to show that A and B were more responsible than he was.

Go support D, someone who was not responsible at all, and indeed consistently opposed it.

Who can fault such logic!

My poor sister who actually voted for Brexit, unlike Cameron and May, is actually more responsible than anyone else for the situation in the Hugo view of the world

or perhaps what he posted is just absolute crap!

I don't have enough ire to go round blaming millions of people in lots of different ways

My list of those to blame is:

Cameron (stupid referendum)
Osborne (austeriy led to conditions that made Leave more likely!)
Gove/Johnson (for using Brexit to try and further their careers)
May (for her approach to Brexit)
Tories in general (I blame them for a lot of things anyway)
Gisela Stuart/Kate Hoey (for trying to undermine Labour and taking on a vocal role - although they are lower on the list than others)

There are others such as Farage but at least he was consistent...the ones above should have known/behaved better

Just go on blaming everyone if you want Hugo, although you never seem to mention Tories do you?

Lots of others you could add to that list.

So you could add on Jacques Delors and the other architects of the Euro. One of the major changes between the 1975 referendum and the 2016 one was that then the EEC/EU was perceived as an economic success worth joining, which it ceased to be.

Or the members of the European Commission and the 'project' more generally who have, over the years, been guilty of hubris in pursuing an overly maximal vision of the EU.

Or every UK politician, Tory and Labour, who has blamed the EU for the UK's ills.

Or Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for not putting in place the 'brake' in 2004 when the EU expanded.

Or Farage and Ukips who undermined the Tories from the right, pushing the Tories into being an anti-EU party, and forcing Cameron to hold the referendum.

Or BoJo for arguing for a Brexit he only half believed in for political gain.

Or not-so-closet Lexiters, like Corbyn, Milne and McDonnell, who (at best) fought a lacklustre referendum campaign, and have since failed miserably to oppose anything but the hardest of Hard Brexits.

Or May for taking the politically easy path, of moving right because there was no opposition on the left, thereby hoovering up Ukips support.

Or every single idiot who voted for Brexit.

There is plenty of blame to go about. Some with higher degress of fault, otherwise with greater degrees of causal influence, determining their respective degrees of responsibility.

There are a few people in political life who aren't to blame. Fortunately for me, I am for other reasons no longer a member of one of the parties partially responsible, and so am free to vote for another one that isn't at all (the Greens).

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think that is a fairer criticism...not that I agree totally either, and linking all to Brexit, especially at the moment, will not fly with the voters as I see it. Link it to austerity (which is a Tory policy) and then as reality bites link austerity to Brexit

I think the point about Corbyn not thinking widely enough does have some truth to it though[/quote]

I think he should bang away. Tory Brexit Cuts. Tory Brexit Tax Rises. Tory Brexit Nurses Shortage.

But you'd expect me to say that!

[Tubby Isaacs]

Apologies for formatting.

[howsillyofme1]

I think that is a fairer criticism...not that I agree totally either, and linking all to Brexit, especially at the moment, will not fly with the voters as I see it. Link it to austerity (which is a Tory policy) and then as reality bites link austerity to Brexit

I think the point about Corbyn not thinking widely enough does have some truth to it though

I think he should bang away. Tory Brexit Cuts. Tory Brexit Tax Rises. Tory Brexit Nurses Shortage.

But you'd expect me to say that![/quote]


And I agree that he will need to....the difference is the timing

From personal experience and looking at the polls, May still has the confidence of the people to negotiate brexit and it is still seen as the right thing to do after the referendum

I think a gradual approach as public opinion evolves will have more effect.......

What this requires though is Corbyn detecting the change as soion as it starts to ahppen - rather than be left behind - and that is where I have my doubts as to whether he can do that sufficiently well. It is not easy to do though....

[howsillyofme1]

Hugo,

I think my list covers 99% of the responsibility.....if you want to blame everyone under the sun then that is up to you

I see it as your normal attempt to obfuscate and dilute the blame for the situation we are in now.....

Why would you not want to focus on Cameron and Osborne the two main arvhitects of the referendum and who could not deliver their voters after having decided to call it?

[gilsey]

My list of those to blame is:

Cameron (stupid referendum)
Osborne (austeriy led to conditions that made Leave more likely!)
Gove/Johnson (for using Brexit to try and further their careers)
May (for her approach to Brexit)
Tories in general (I blame them for a lot of things anyway)
Gisela Stuart/Kate Hoey (for trying to undermine Labour and taking on a vocal role - although they are lower on the list than others)

There are others such as Farage but at least he was consistent...the ones above should have known/behaved better

I would put Farage right up there, not on his own, but with his media enablers.
It's particularly infuriating to me, knowing how inconsequential he could have been if his media profile had been in proportion to his true influence, rather than the influence they attributed to him which became the 'truth'. If you see what I mean.

[Willow904]

Why is the death penalty even on that list, wtf does it have to do with the EU?

The death penalty is prohibited by the EU.

According to Wiki, Belarus is the only European country that still has the death penalty. We want to be Belarus, apparently.

I know, but we abolished it independently didn't we?
Just had a horrible thought that maybe we didn't, and I've forgotten?

I find it hard to get into the mind of a leave supporter, but I think it goes along the lines of "we abolished the death penalty, introduced environmental laws, workers rights and created the ECHR and we don't want to change any of those things but as long as we are in the EU we can't change any of those things we introduced ourselves and still want even if we wanted to because Brussels is a bureaucratic dictatorship which makes us do things we already chose to do so we have to leave so we can get our country back".

In many ways the arguments of the average person who wants to leave the EU so we can close our borders and stop all immigration make a lot more sense than the sovereignty arguments of supposedly intelligent people like Gove and Rees-Mogg. Although that's probably because the likes of Gove and Rees-Mogg simply aren't being honest about their reasons for wanting to leave the EU and they actually do want to reverse all the enlightened policies we have introduced ourselves and are now enshrined in EU law.

[howsillyofme1]

My list of those to blame is:

Cameron (stupid referendum)
Osborne (austeriy led to conditions that made Leave more likely!)
Gove/Johnson (for using Brexit to try and further their careers)
May (for her approach to Brexit)
Tories in general (I blame them for a lot of things anyway)
Gisela Stuart/Kate Hoey (for trying to undermine Labour and taking on a vocal role - although they are lower on the list than others)

There are others such as Farage but at least he was consistent...the ones above should have known/behaved better

I would put Farage right up there, not on his own, but with his media enablers.
It's particularly infuriating to me, knowing how inconsequential he could have been if his media profile had been in proportion to his true influence, rather than the influence they attributed to him which became the 'truth'. If you see what I mean.

I was trying to be generous (for once) but your logic seems unchallengeable

More to blame than Jacques Delors, as mentioned above!!!!

[Willow904]

I think that is a fairer criticism...not that I agree totally either, and linking all to Brexit, especially at the moment, will not fly with the voters as I see it. Link it to austerity (which is a Tory policy) and then as reality bites link austerity to Brexit

I think the point about Corbyn not thinking widely enough does have some truth to it though

I think he should bang away. Tory Brexit Cuts. Tory Brexit Tax Rises. Tory Brexit Nurses Shortage.

But you'd expect me to say that!


And I agree that he will need to....the difference is the timing

From personal experience and looking at the polls, May still has the confidence of the people to negotiate brexit and it is still seen as the right thing to do after the referendum

I think a gradual approach as public opinion evolves will have more effect.......

What this requires though is Corbyn detecting the change as soion as it starts to ahppen - rather than be left behind - and that is where I have my doubts as to whether he can do that sufficiently well. It is not easy to do though....

What if public opinion doesn't evolve? And if it does, what if the best way to avoid being behind public opinion is to be ahead of it?