Friday 31st March 2017

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 6:25 am

Morning all.

Glad to hear that the 18 week operation target will no longer be missed. Still safe in their hands.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 8:55 am

The problem with pieces like this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tom-watson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is that it is all questions and no answers. Harris' usual answer ( a "progressive alliance") is a complete non-starter.

We need an earthquake here. It won't be solved by replacing Corbyn with the useless Starmer.

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 8:58 am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... f1c9bf7ccc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 9:01 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-security" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The lack of transparency and parliamentary oversight is causing growing legal concern that legislation may be passed in haste and regretted at leisure.

“Brexit is likely to cause the biggest legal train crash in modern history,” said Robert Bell, head of the EU and UK competition team at the international law firm Bryan Cave. “The consequences, together with the problems of legal interpretation and the uncertainties created, will be felt for generations. It is the modern equivalent of Henry VIII’s break with Rome, except many times more complex.”

The Great Repeal Bill.

A legal train crash, apparently.

Happy days.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 9:14 am

Bonnylad wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... f1c9bf7ccc

'Delusions of empire'

At least some people can see through the bullshit, even if we have to venture outside the UK to find them. I'm glad the world hasn't gone completely mad.......yet.

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 9:25 am

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cass ... t-promises" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 9:56 am

Morning.

I think the French have a phrase for this one:

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RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 10:05 am

Morning all.

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RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 11:15 am

A thought occurs to me...

NHS operations: Waiting times to rise in 'trade-off', boss says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39420662

Patients will face longer waits for operations such as knee and hip replacements in a "trade-off" for improved care in other areas, NHS England boss Simon Stevens says.

He said growing pressures meant he could no longer guarantee treatment in the 18-week target time.

So what happened to the 7 day NHS that was promised?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 11:18 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:A thought occurs to me...

NHS operations: Waiting times to rise in 'trade-off', boss says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39420662

Patients will face longer waits for operations such as knee and hip replacements in a "trade-off" for improved care in other areas, NHS England boss Simon Stevens says.

He said growing pressures meant he could no longer guarantee treatment in the 18-week target time.
So what happened to the 7 day NHS that was promised?

Dropped because of the strike action.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 11:23 am

This by Will Self is similar to Harris

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... nt-provide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Saying "Corbyn is shit, we need some new ideas" is not, actually, a new idea.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 11:23 am

SpinningHugo wrote:The problem with pieces like this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tom-watson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is that it is all questions and no answers. Harris' usual answer ( a "progressive alliance") is a complete non-starter.

We need an earthquake here. It won't be solved by replacing Corbyn with the useless Starmer.

That's because the only realistic answer is for Labour to come back.

People like you (and I know you are no longer a party member, but quite a few of your ilk still are) think that can be achieved by repeating what worked in the 1990s.

Others, such as myself, believe a totally new approach is required.

Therein lies the problem.....

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 11:45 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:The problem with pieces like this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tom-watson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is that it is all questions and no answers. Harris' usual answer ( a "progressive alliance") is a complete non-starter.

We need an earthquake here. It won't be solved by replacing Corbyn with the useless Starmer.
That's because the only realistic answer is for Labour to come back.

People like you (and I know you are no longer a party member, but quite a few of your ilk still are) think that can be achieved by repeating what worked in the 1990s.

Others, such as myself, believe a totally new approach is required.

Therein lies the problem.....

Well, unless you can actually specify what this "totally new approach" might be, it looks empty to me.

See also, Harris and Self.

I don't think a return to New Labour can now work. That vessel has been smashed by Corbyn and there is no point trying to pour our hopes into that any longer.

I don't think Labour can, ever again, win. It is too far gone now. Replacing Corbyn with, say, Starmer (or preferably someone a bit more able than Starmer) might get labour back to near the kind of vote share Miliband achieved, but you can't win with that now Ukips have collapsed back into the Tories.

I think we'll have to wait for a couple more general election defeats, when hopefully we'll then see a complete realignment of parties.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:06 pm

For the replies:

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:09 pm

And as for an "earthquake" being needed, events have a habit of providing those. Especially in periods of flux, as we are living through now.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:26 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59656.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Spain could veto Brexit deal applying to Gibraltar, say EU negotiation draft guidelines

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:27 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 59671.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit to cause 60,000 job hospitality recruitment shortage, industry warns. But will Government listen?

a) sovereignty
b) willofthepeople
c) best thing that happened to Hastings since those Norman chancers came and subjugated us like proper foreigners do

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:33 pm

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/31 ... committee/

Confidence in £70m customs system has 'collapsed', warns Treasury Committee
Under Brexit, service faces five-fold rise in transactions.

I'm sure David Davis is right on top of this one already.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:48 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 59381.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Premier League bosses urge government to exempt EU players from post-Brexit immigration laws

and farm labourers
and NHS workers
and car manufacturers
and bankers
and game industries
and hospitality
and
and
and
and
and
and

etc

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:53 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And as for an "earthquake" being needed, events have a habit of providing those. Especially in periods of flux, as we are living through now.

"Something will turn up."

Things may, of course, get better.

They may also get worse.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 12:54 pm

Labour with 3 point lead.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... 04146.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:00 pm

For balance. Corbyn as John the Baptist.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:04 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:And as for an "earthquake" being needed, events have a habit of providing those. Especially in periods of flux, as we are living through now.

"Something will turn up."

Things may, of course, get better.

They may also get worse.

Things can always get worse, but sooner or later things have to improve. Don't they?

Actually, history tells us that they generally do.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:12 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:And as for an "earthquake" being needed, events have a habit of providing those. Especially in periods of flux, as we are living through now.

"Something will turn up."

Things may, of course, get better.

They may also get worse.
Things can always get worse, but sooner or later things have to improve. Don't they?

Actually, history tells us that they generally do.

For Labour, or any political party?

No, there is no ineluctable rule that things will get better. Some parties just die, or shrink so much that they can never again be parties of government. Has happened to lots of parties in different times and places.

Same with more abstract things like "ideas" or "values". Sometimes they are discredited, and never come back into fashion.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:29 pm

like the death penalty
and slavery

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:29 pm

and hate speech

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:31 pm

Jean-Claude Juncker threatens to campaign for Ohio's independence in revenge for Donald Trump backing Brexit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 59471.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:34 pm

Mr Muscat said he had received assurances from Downing Street that the matter was one of “misinterpretation”. He said the UK were “decent partners”, and his government would take the British government “at its word”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59371.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

are we though

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 1:45 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Mr Muscat said he had received assurances from Downing Street that the matter was one of “misinterpretation”. He said the UK were “decent partners”, and his government would take the British government “at its word”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59371.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
are we though

No

Once upon a time Boris Johnson implied Europe needed us more than we needed them. David Davis told us that we would go to individual member states to strike up trade agreements. Liam Fox told us he would finalise trade deals with non-EU countries while we were conducting Brexit negotiations. All of that is false.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/03 ... r-team-may

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:05 pm

Those there Belgians:

http://www.euronews.com/2017/03/28/view ... from-ghent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The arrival of refugees brought about a huge wave of solidarity with citizens and NGO’s offering their assistance and donating materials. As a local authority, Ghent is well placed to coordinate the initiatives. For example, by setting up a dedicated website, hosting a volunteer event, supporting initiatives such as mentoring schemes, conducting volunteer work, and coordinating leisure activities. This not only empowers newcomers, but also fast-tracks their integration process, and creates solidarity with other vulnerable groups.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:06 pm

Good-afternoon

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:07 pm

Yes, some ideas become discredited and never regain wide acceptance.

But I am far from convinced that socialism/social democracy (or, if you are less ideologically minded, just social justice) has to suffer that fate.

Especially at a time when insecurity is growing and the elite 1% are becoming richer and more powerful than ever before?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:20 pm

in the end if Hsapiens is to survive (which doubtless it isn't) culture will need to better override biology
particularly the biology of fear

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:21 pm

NHS to fast-track UK nurses to combat record departures of EU staff
“We have got a curious situation where many more people in this country would like to train to be nurses than we have nurse training places,” Simon [Stevens chief executive of NHS England] said. “So we want to expand the number of nurse training places and the routes into nursing so that we can grow the workforce from within this country as well.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ice-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is training and education rationed in the UK?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:26 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:in the end if Hsapiens is to survive (which doubtless it isn't) culture will need to better override biology
particularly the biology of fear

The will to cooperate is as strong as the will to dominate
Domination by a few of the many is dysfunctional
Structure society minimising dysfunction

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:28 pm

“We have got a curious situation where many more people in this country would like to train to be nurses than we have nurse training places,” Stevens said.

Is this true, please?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:34 pm

Why did the people living in Ghent respond with solidarity and assistance for refugees?
How is their community structured?
Find out how to teach people to live, not just exist

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:40 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, some ideas become discredited and never regain wide acceptance.

But I am far from convinced that socialism/social democracy (or, if you are less ideologically minded, just social justice) has to suffer that fate.

Especially at a time when insecurity is growing and the elite 1% are becoming richer and more powerful than ever before?

I don't think these ideas will die, but I do think that the coalition that is the Labour party is no longer viable. The fissures (which I could list off) are now too great, and to be clear are nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn. Die Linke, the SPD, FDP, and the Greens are separate parties in Germany for a reason. For a brief period New Labour combined all of them, but the differences are far too great for that coalition to be reconstructed, especially with the rise of secessionist politics in Scotland and Wales. Trying to win with a coalition led by Die Linke is crazy, and bound to fail.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 2:57 pm

Well, we're still in March and already the Gibraltar pickle has appeared.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 3:00 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, some ideas become discredited and never regain wide acceptance.

But I am far from convinced that socialism/social democracy (or, if you are less ideologically minded, just social justice) has to suffer that fate.

Especially at a time when insecurity is growing and the elite 1% are becoming richer and more powerful than ever before?

I don't think these ideas will die, but I do think that the coalition that is the Labour party is no longer viable. The fissures (which I could list off) are now too great, and to be clear are nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn. Die Linke, the SPD, FDP, and the Greens are separate parties in Germany for a reason. For a brief period New Labour combined all of them, but the differences are far too great for that coalition to be reconstructed, especially with the rise of secessionist politics in Scotland and Wales. Trying to win with a coalition led by Die Linke is crazy, and bound to fail.

This is a well made point.

The conclusion I reach is that we need again to make the case to abolish First Past the Post.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 3:03 pm

It is indeed the only way to move forward at all effectively.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 3:15 pm

I'm forced to acknowledge leaders are fully aware society is structured so that some people can't learn enough to support themselves. It's despicable and I'm beside myself.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 3:20 pm

Outrage as Spain and EU accused of using Brexit to take back Gibraltar, as MPs say Britain will 'not be bullied'
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/outrage-spain ... 05427.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bullied my arse.
Gibraltar voted 96% to Stay in the EU (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36665020" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) so who's bullying who?

Am sick to death of us.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 3:31 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Outrage as Spain and EU accused of using Brexit to take back Gibraltar, as MPs say Britain will 'not be bullied'
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/outrage-spain ... 05427.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bullied my arse.
Gibraltar voted 96% to Stay in the EU (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36665020" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) so who's bullying who?

Am sick to death of us.

That's true, Gib did, but presumably only so long as they don't have to pay taxes. They might not fancy being run from Seville, or Cadiz.

I'm sick to death of us as well, if that's any consolation.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 3:36 pm

I've still no idea where money is coming from for any Labour policies. If you're Ed Miliband, then you're keeping your powder dry, and you'll produce a couple of high end taxes nearer the election which will be not earth shattering, but useful extra income to prop services up so that people feel the difference, and that's fine as far as it goes. But if you're Corbyn, with the apparent ambition to be hugely different, then I think the absence is a big worry.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 4:12 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 60461.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit latest: Confidence in delivery of new UK customs system 'collapses'
This follows a warning earlier this week from the chief executive of the port of Dover, Tim Waggott, of an 'Armageddon scenario' on customs post-Brexit

From still considered serious country to global joke in one David Cameron.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 4:14 pm

"Customs is at the heart of the Brexit debate. It is part of the essential plumbing for international trade, and ensuring it continues to function smoothly post-Brexit has to be a priority for the Government".

Mr Tyrie drew attention to HMRC estimates that it could be forced to deal with a five-fold increase in declarations when the UK leaves the EU.

"The consequences of this project failing, or even being delayed, could be serious. Much trade could be lost. The project, therefore, merits a high degree of scrutiny by Parliament," he said.

the joy

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 4:20 pm

Must be tightening up on postal votes,only got notice of four this time.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 4:23 pm

Mr H is back!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 31 Mar, 2017 4:33 pm

(Mr Snozers, if you're looking in, look away now):

https://neweuropeans.net/article/1801/h ... erspective" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How can we unite Britain after the Brexit vote - a psychologist's perspective

It is not that Remain leaders failed to provide enough facts. It is that they failed to produce a narrative that could make people feel unified at an individual and national level at a time of profound uncertainty.