Saturday 1st and Sunday 2nd April 2017

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 01 Apr, 2017 11:57 pm

Christ on a bike, these people are utterly bonkers.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:25 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... rking-poor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Observer view on changes to tax and benefits

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 6:07 am

Hmm,
Andrew Rosindell's apparent passport
colour

Current passport colour, as used by various Europeans (and correctly identified by Mr Nuttall)

Proper blighty passport to proudly rule the waves with

Unusual to see a partly verifiable claim from Nuttall, can see why Rosindell might not be happy having a pink one but personally would prefer to stick with the burgundy.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 7:49 am

Dear Nora,

I have had something really big on my mind recently and it is starting to really impact my life. The problem is the colour of my passport. I am worried that the colour of my passport isn't as manly as the colour of some other people's passports and it's a major challenge to my sense of self. I am worried I am heading for some kind of a breakdown.

Can you help?

Yours,
A.C.Knob

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 7:54 am

Found this thought-provoking (the topic per se) - what IS it about OUTRAGE that can so tempt us to fall into it's dysfunctional and generally counter-productive state?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ange-minds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Outrage makes you feel good, but doesn’t change minds

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 7:58 am

Theresa May asked the public to “come together”, after serving Brussels with the formal request to leave the European Union. But the Guardian’s three-month Brexit diaries project has revealed a nation deeply divided, between those texting their friends this week to say “happy Brexit day” – and others for whom the news brought only anxiety and fear.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... britain-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:04 am

Labour campaigned for remain, but is acutely conscious that its voters lie scattered across both sides of the Brexit divide, as evidenced by the large-scale rebellion when Jeremy Corbyn whippped his MPs to vote for the Brexit bill.

Except for when one if its MPs was chairing the Vote Leave campaign. (Having arrived to live in the UK the year following our entry into "Europe").

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:07 am

But when the respondents were asked who they would blame if the Brexit process didn’t go as smoothly as the government hoped, many gave the same answer – “Theresa May”. This underlines that the political stakes for the prime minister could barely be higher. And as she prepares to enter tough negotiations with her 27 EU counterparts, the hopes, expectations, and anxieties of Britain’s voters go with her.

Anyone putting any bets on how many people will end up saying that the inevitably non-smooth Brexit process was the fault of Corbyn/Brown/Miliband/the Left/the Remoaners?

Worth a punt surely?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:09 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -integrity
‘Dark money’ is threat to integrity of UK elections, say leading academics
Call to reform electoral law as new fears emerge over role of foreign donations in referendum campaign

Damian Tambini, director of the media policy project at the LSE, who heads the group made up of leading experts in the field, said that new forms of online campaigning had not only changed the ways that political parties target voters but, crucially, had also altered the ability of big money interests to manipulate political debate. “There is a real danger we are heading down the US route where whoever spends the most money is most likely to win. That’s why we’ve always controlled spending in this country. But these controls are no longer working.”

"are heading"?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:16 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu- ... 61846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The UK has a poor track record when it comes to worker's rights – and Brexit is set to make it worse

Something for the Labour party to build a narrative around.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 9:41 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... roup-anger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anger as tampon tax is used to help fund anti-abortion group
Women’s groups and politicians condemn £250,000 grant to Life charity from cash meant for disadvantaged women

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 9:47 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
But when the respondents were asked who they would blame if the Brexit process didn’t go as smoothly as the government hoped, many gave the same answer – “Theresa May”. This underlines that the political stakes for the prime minister could barely be higher. And as she prepares to enter tough negotiations with her 27 EU counterparts, the hopes, expectations, and anxieties of Britain’s voters go with her.
Anyone putting any bets on how many people will end up saying that the inevitably non-smooth Brexit process was the fault of Corbyn/Brown/Miliband/the Left/the Remoaners?

Worth a punt surely?

Totally agree TC2. Not just the group above either, but as I said yesterday, they'll try and spread blame to the EU too. '27 bullies against poor little Britain, innit.'

Morning all.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 9:48 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -integrity
‘Dark money’ is threat to integrity of UK elections, say leading academics
Call to reform electoral law as new fears emerge over role of foreign donations in referendum campaign

Damian Tambini, director of the media policy project at the LSE, who heads the group made up of leading experts in the field, said that new forms of online campaigning had not only changed the ways that political parties target voters but, crucially, had also altered the ability of big money interests to manipulate political debate. “There is a real danger we are heading down the US route where whoever spends the most money is most likely to win. That’s why we’ve always controlled spending in this country. But these controls are no longer working.”
"are heading"?

Already there.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 9:58 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
But when the respondents were asked who they would blame if the Brexit process didn’t go as smoothly as the government hoped, many gave the same answer – “Theresa May”. This underlines that the political stakes for the prime minister could barely be higher. And as she prepares to enter tough negotiations with her 27 EU counterparts, the hopes, expectations, and anxieties of Britain’s voters go with her.
Anyone putting any bets on how many people will end up saying that the inevitably non-smooth Brexit process was the fault of Corbyn/Brown/Miliband/the Left/the Remoaners?

Worth a punt surely?

Of course some will claim that, indeed it is being said already.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 10:08 am

Oh by the way (TC2 mentioning Ed above). He's on 'The Last Leg' this coming Friday. Apparently invited because of his 'entertaining twitter feed.' I say apparently as I only catch bits of the show when hubby watches it.

They are asking viewers to send in questions to put to him. I'm not confident it'll go well, if the sample questions they read out from the 'oh so great British public' are anything to go by. The questions ("those are the ones we can actually broadcast") remind me of the woman who rang through to BBC national radio to 'speak' to him when he was Labour leader, and then very rudely and nastily attacked him for the way he speaks. Leads me to think the audience might end up laughing at him rather than with him. This bloody country! Hard to argue against us being a nation of intolerant bullies

Anyway, for anyone interested it's on this coming Friday at 10pm (sorry not sure what channel, 4 or 5 I think).

I might record it and then wait to hear from one of you lovely peeps whether it's safe to watch or not. If not, I'll just delete it unseen.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 10:16 am

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... roup-anger

Anger as tampon tax is used to help fund anti-abortion group
Women’s groups and politicians condemn £250,000 grant to Life charity from cash meant for disadvantaged women

Yeah, it's one of the larger grants too, but didn't appear on the official press release, appearing instead way down on another less publicised list.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 10:19 am

http://www.carersuk.org/news-and-campai ... ocial-care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Carers UK responds to House of Commons Committee report on Adult Social Care

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 10:20 am

For the replies. Obviously.

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HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 10:36 am

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... developers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As demand rises, the reputation of new-build homes is crumbling

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 10:38 am

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/ ... b-gdnbooks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Familiar Stranger by Stuart Hall review – self-portrait of the British left’s most significant intellect

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 10:52 am

Good morfternoon.

Marooned on a blighted island with a non-maroon "Blighty" passport.

I wonder how many people fondly believe that the new passport will be the same as the old one? They'll be outraged when they discover that it's a blue plastic effort.

Edited - typo

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 11:01 am

daydreamer wrote:Oh by the way (TC2 mentioning Ed above). He's on 'The Last Leg' this coming Friday. Apparently invited because of his 'entertaining twitter feed.' I say apparently as I only catch bits of the show when hubby watches it.

They are asking viewers to send in questions to put to him. I'm not confident it'll go well, if the sample questions they read out from the 'oh so great British public' are anything to go by. The questions ("those are the ones we can actually broadcast") remind me of the woman who rang through to BBC national radio to 'speak' to him when he was Labour leader, and then very rudely and nastily attacked him for the way he speaks. Leads me to think the audience might end up laughing at him rather than with him. This bloody country! Hard to argue against us being a nation of intolerant bullies

Anyway, for anyone interested it's on this coming Friday at 10pm (sorry not sure what channel, 4 or 5 I think).

I might record it and then wait to hear from one of you lovely peeps whether it's safe to watch or not. If not, I'll just delete it unseen.

The actual programme went ok for JC, of course he got slagged off for it afterwards.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 11:07 am

gilsey wrote:
daydreamer wrote:Oh by the way (TC2 mentioning Ed above). He's on 'The Last Leg' this coming Friday. Apparently invited because of his 'entertaining twitter feed.' I say apparently as I only catch bits of the show when hubby watches it.

They are asking viewers to send in questions to put to him. I'm not confident it'll go well, if the sample questions they read out from the 'oh so great British public' are anything to go by. The questions ("those are the ones we can actually broadcast") remind me of the woman who rang through to BBC national radio to 'speak' to him when he was Labour leader, and then very rudely and nastily attacked him for the way he speaks. Leads me to think the audience might end up laughing at him rather than with him. This bloody country! Hard to argue against us being a nation of intolerant bullies

Anyway, for anyone interested it's on this coming Friday at 10pm (sorry not sure what channel, 4 or 5 I think).

I might record it and then wait to hear from one of you lovely peeps whether it's safe to watch or not. If not, I'll just delete it unseen.
The actual programme went ok for JC, of course he got slagged off for it afterwards.

Good to know. But, the way things are at the minute I don't think my concerns are too misplaced.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 11:20 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu- ... 61846.html

The UK track record on worker rights is not so good since access to justice in the employment tribunals was largely destroyed in 2013 for most individual claimants by introduction of excessive tribunal fees, which can be as high as £1,200 for a claim heard at tribunal. There is a long running challenge to these high fees by the trade union Unison, recently heard in the Supreme Court. The fees are argued to be disproportionate, discriminatory and in conflict with the human right of access to justice. It is a simple point that worker rights are academic if they cannot be enforced by ordinary people.

Overall the EU partnership idea of talking to each other about legal reforms has actually worked rather well for a long time, and has given much benefit to UK employees, though this is not widely appreciated.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 11:48 am

Ian Austin MP, Neil Coyle MP - both absolute jerks who Labour would be much better off without.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 12:23 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 62081.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Two-thirds of students want a second EU referendum
NUS poll reveals students strongly in favour of a second referendum on the terms of the UK's eventual deal with the EU

Yes, yes, but WHAT COLOUR PASSPORT do they want?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 12:26 pm

And now "spokespeople" are now briefing that we would gladly go to war with Spain over Gibraltar

What next in the escalation of empty Brexit bombast? Restore the Empire??

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 12:28 pm

Lawks Lordy, our country is become deranged.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 12:37 pm

Though there is always the possibility that the more deranged our rulers become, the greater the chance of some historic national humiliation that will snap us all out of it......

I just hope too many people don't get hurt and worse along the way.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 1:59 pm

The A Banks interview in the Guardian

Near as I can tell, Bank's strategy is to shout louder through the media without stopping so no one can hear what's going on and fill pages with blinding extravaganza so no one can see anything either.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 2:00 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tin-russia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 3:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And now "spokespeople" are now briefing that we would gladly go to war with Spain over Gibraltar

What next in the escalation of empty Brexit bombast? Restore the Empire??

Spain is in NATO. So we'd be effectively on our allies, and indeed ourselves.

And I thought Jez was bad on NATO.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:12 pm

Theresa May would be prepared to go to war to protect Gibraltar as Margaret Thatcher once did for the Falklands, former Conservative leader Michael Howard has suggested, in comments that were immediately criticised as inflammatory.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ael-fallon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or barking.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:13 pm

Sir Michael Fallon, the defence secretary, also used robust language. “We’re going to look after Gibraltar. Gibraltar is going to be protected all the way because the sovereignty cannot be changed without the agreement of the people of Gibraltar ,” he said.

You could argue that the best way to look after Gibraltar would be not to take it out of Europe.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:19 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... n-jankovic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He faces deportation to Serbia, which was formed after he left with the breakup of former Yugoslavia. He has no Serbian passport, and said he has “absolutely no frame of reference” with Serbia after such a long absence

Paying taxes for 20 years and gets locked up ready for deportation.
Utterly immoral.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:29 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -secretary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Teresa Pearce to step down as shadow communities secretary

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:29 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Sir Michael Fallon, the defence secretary, also used robust language. “We’re going to look after Gibraltar. Gibraltar is going to be protected all the way because the sovereignty cannot be changed without the agreement of the people of Gibraltar ,” he said.
You could argue that the best way to look after Gibraltar would be not to take it out of Europe.

The people of Gibraltar who voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU.

FFS! It's only been a bloody week and already we are threatening to start wars and make it easier for terrorists to kill people in Europe. This is bound to get us the very best deal. How can it fail.

This country has officially jumped the shark.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:36 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -secretary

Teresa Pearce to step down as shadow communities secretary

Shame. One of the few with decent level business experience, and from a humble background. Plus many years of work for Labour.

Please don't tell me Cat Smith gets promoted. Maybe Eoin Clarke or Rachael Swindon get the job.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:38 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In which Red Tory MSM puppet Britain Elects irritates the faithful by calling out Len McCluskey "neck and neck before the coup" bollocks.

I know it's only Twitter but I really worry how many of these fools there are in Labour.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:48 pm

LCW in UC as:- no further delineation nor age profile as of December 2016
Single, no child dependant
2,894
Single, with child dependant(s)
331
Couple, no child dependant
216
Couple, with child dependant(s)
250

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:09 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:[
The recession in the early 90s (as opposed to early 80s) was caused by ERM membership
That's utter bollocks Hugo.

UK entered the ERM in October 1990.

The first quarter of negative growth was Q3 1990 and the 2nd in Q4 1990 so we were technically in recession when we entered the ERM.

It might have been exacerbated by membership but certainly wasn't caused by it. A combination of the savings and loan crisis in the US and the Lawson-inspired boom are the likely suspects.

I do not agree.

No recession has a single cause, but as soon as we were forced out of the ERM, we recovered.

The ERM forced us into rates higher than appropriate. There were cyclical factors too, but these were exacerbated by a bad policy error. (A policiy error Labour backed: see also Brecit).

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:12 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:[
The recession in the early 90s (as opposed to early 80s) was caused by ERM membership
That's utter bollocks Hugo.

UK entered the ERM in October 1990.

The first quarter of negative growth was Q3 1990 and the 2nd in Q4 1990 so we were technically in recession when we entered the ERM.

It might have been exacerbated by membership but certainly wasn't caused by it. A combination of the savings and loan crisis in the US and the Lawson-inspired boom are the likely suspects.

I do not agree.

No recession has a single cause, but as soon as we were forced out of the ERM, we recovered.

The ERM forced us into rates higher than appropriate. There were cyclical factors too, but these were exacerbated by a bad policy error. (A policiy error Labour backed: see also Brecit).

Put another way, for the ERM then see the euro now. The euro and the ERM prevented monetary responses that were appropriate in a downturn, and indeed exacerbated their impact. That doesn't mean that the ERM and euro caused the downturn necessarily, but they made their impacy far worse and prevented the (dull orthodox) measures that enabled them to be reversed.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:16 pm

The ERM was a means to defeating inflation only, as part of what might reasonably be called a "long term plan", albeit a grim one. It made it easier to raise interest rates to that effect.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:20 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:[
The recession in the early 90s (as opposed to early 80s) was caused by ERM membership
That's utter bollocks Hugo.

UK entered the ERM in October 1990.

The first quarter of negative growth was Q3 1990 and the 2nd in Q4 1990 so we were technically in recession when we entered the ERM.

It might have been exacerbated by membership but certainly wasn't caused by it. A combination of the savings and loan crisis in the US and the Lawson-inspired boom are the likely suspects.

I do not agree.

No recession has a single cause, but as soon as we were forced out of the ERM, we recovered.

The ERM forced us into rates higher than appropriate. There were cyclical factors too, but these were exacerbated by a bad policy error. (A policiy error Labour backed: see also Brecit).

How can it possibly have been caused by being in the ERM when we weren't even in it at the time?

just stick to this one point please if you can. never mind what happened afterwards,

Were we or were we not in recession already when we entered the ERM?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:30 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Were we or were we not in recession already when we entered the ERM?

Because the normal response to the downturn, monetary policy, was closed off by our ERM membership. We pushed up rates to enter the ERM at a high level, then kept them there to keep ourselves in.

So, if you know anything about the ERM, you will know that for months (indeed years) beforehand we had been shadowing the DM in order to enter the ERM at a particular level. This kept rates too high for the general economy. Once we entered the ERM we were locked in, thereby exacerbating the cyclical downturn. This gradually got worse overtime as we were locked into rates set for Germany, which had inflationary pressures at the time.

There isn't anything remotely controversial about any of that, I'd have thought. Claiming it to be "utter bollocks" is somewhat revealing.

As with Brexit today, Labour was crippled in blaming the government on this as it had backed the policy.

Same today. Labour voted for the referendum, and imposed a three line whip on voting through art 50 without conditions. That makes it a bit tricky for it to position itself now as the opponent of "Tory Brexit". Indeed, doing so is dishonest.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:31 pm

And indeed out of recession before we left it.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/databl ... th-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Q3 1992 +0.8

Recession ended Q4 1991.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:34 pm

if you know anything about the ERM, you will know that for months (indeed years) beforehand we had been shadowing the DM in order to enter the ERM at a particular level. This kept rates too high for the general economy.

So the cause is too high rates. We had those for a reason- the government was concentrating on fighting inflation. Joining the ERM made it harder for them to cut the rates and abandon their fight against inflation.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:42 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:And indeed out of recession before we left it.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/databl ... th-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Q3 1992 +0.8

Recession ended Q4 1991.

That is a perfectly good chart showing the dramatic impact of loosening of monetary policy with the departure from the ERM. We'd had too tight monetary policy for years beforehand.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:42 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

In which Red Tory MSM puppet Britain Elects irritates the faithful by calling out Len McCluskey "neck and neck before the coup" bollocks.

I know it's only Twitter but I really worry how many of these fools there are in Labour.

There was a big drop in Labour support just after the referendum. That much is indisputable fact.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:43 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Because the normal response to the downturn, monetary policy, was closed off by our ERM membership. We pushed up rates to enter the ERM at a high level, then kept them there to keep ourselves in.

No, that's wrong too. Rates went back over 10% in 1988 to try and push inflation down - it was the only instrument they had since abandoning all thought of controlling the money supply.