Wednesday 5th April 2017

[SpinningHugo]

OK, maybe "I don't care" about KL was slightly - slightly - overstating it. Its obviously a fudge and not a very good one.

But its still not THAT important in the wider scheme of things. Livingstone is now an irrelevance and - ban or no ban - will never hold office within the party again.

Meanwhile, the usual suspects are using this to paint anything short of full-throated support for Likudism as "anti-semitic"

That last bit is beneath you and I hope you'll think about deleting it.

[pk1]

Ed Miliband didn't post tweets whinging about the media. His complaints were handled behind the scenes, the same as any competent professional would.

Corbyn is tweeting his complaints to bolster the corbynites. I suspect he knows support is draining away & his making it look like the whole world is against him fires up his support base.

But Corbyn is the Leader & as such, wants to be Prime Minister. We (collectively) ridicule Trump yet Labour's own leader is carrying on in exactly the same manner !

[PorFavor]

OK, maybe "I don't care" about KL was slightly - slightly - overstating it. Its obviously a fudge and not a very good one.

But its still not THAT important in the wider scheme of things. Livingstone is now an irrelevance and - ban or no ban - will never hold office within the party again.

Meanwhile, the usual suspects are using this to paint anything short of full-throated support for Likudism as "anti-semitic"

There is, it seems to me, no "wider scheme of things", though. That's a big part of the problem.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Ed Miliband wasn't 18 points back.

So petulance is dependent on the polls? Which dictionary are you using?

Ed Miliband didn't have a coup against him.

And he still lost.

And took responsibility. As he would have done if he'd lost 80% of MPs.

"The coup" as you absurdly call it wasn't the media. Losing by 18 points isn't the media. It's ridiculous to say that it is, and it's basically telling the electorate they're thick sheeple. The electorate don't tend to like that.

[pk1]

OK, maybe "I don't care" about KL was slightly - slightly - overstating it. Its obviously a fudge and not a very good one.

But its still not THAT important in the wider scheme of things. Livingstone is now an irrelevance and - ban or no ban - will never hold office within the party again.

Meanwhile, the usual suspects are using this to paint anything short of full-throated support for Likudism as "anti-semitic"

But its still not THAT important in the wider scheme of things

unless you're a Jewish Labour-supporter & find anti-semitic tropes being used by Livingstone on the very day the decision was being announced.....

Apologies for image size - I'm on new laptop & haven't yet worked out why I can't reduce images to suitable size. Any advice on how to do so would be most appreciated

[SpinningHugo]

Ed Miliband wasn't 18 points back.

So petulance is dependent on the polls? Which dictionary are you using?

Ed Miliband didn't have a coup against him.

And he still lost.

And took responsibility. As he would have done if he'd lost 80% of MPs.

"The coup" as you absurdly call it wasn't the media. Losing by 18 points isn't the media. It's ridiculous to say that it is, and it's basically telling the electorate they're thick sheeple. The electorate don't tend to like that.

85%

[Tubby Isaacs]

OK, maybe "I don't care" about KL was slightly - slightly - overstating it. Its obviously a fudge and not a very good one.

But its still not THAT important in the wider scheme of things. Livingstone is now an irrelevance and - ban or no ban - will never hold office within the party again.

Meanwhile, the usual suspects are using this to paint anything short of full-throated support for Likudism as "anti-semitic"

There is, it seems to me, no "wider scheme of things", though. That's a big part of the problem.

For me too.

I make allowances for cards being kept close to chest, as Miliband did with spending commitments. But he was running on a fairly conservative ticket- Coalition spending plans with bit more investment, and some high end tax rises.

Corbyn's supposed to be delivering far more than that. Austerity ended, £500bn investment. I don't think you can be as thin as policy currently is, if you're going to do that.

[Willow904]

.

[AnatolyKasparov]

OK, maybe "I don't care" about KL was slightly - slightly - overstating it. Its obviously a fudge and not a very good one.

But its still not THAT important in the wider scheme of things. Livingstone is now an irrelevance and - ban or no ban - will never hold office within the party again.

Meanwhile, the usual suspects are using this to paint anything short of full-throated support for Likudism as "anti-semitic"

That last bit is beneath you and I hope you'll think about deleting it.

To be clear, I'm not referring to anybody on here.

It definitely happens, though.

(as just one example, remember the ridiculous fuss some made over Ed M saying Palestine should be recognised?)

[Tubby Isaacs]

What I've seen of policy- aside from the good work on the fiscal rule that McDonnell did initially- seems to be Corbyn heads into the media with something Andrew Fisher's come up with, and it gets knocked back and the best that can be said is "He raised an important issue".

Has he followed through with something practical on buying out PFIs? I looked at the Northumberland buy out, and the key seemed to be that the County Council had a good relationship with the trust and had some spare cash. I don't understand everything about PFI by any means, but that looks like a very easy practical "this costs X, it will save Y" thing.

Apologise to him and his team if it has been done.

[PorFavor]

I don't want to be accused of ageism, but you've got to wonder about dementia.

I don't think it's that, though.

[AnatolyKasparov]

And there definitely were some half-assed "coup" plots against Ed when he was leader - and one pretty serious attempt in late 2014.

Is history usually rewritten that quickly?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I didn't think there was much to that "coup" really. The Tories didn't really bother with it. Unlike "stabbed his brother in the back" which they said whenever they could.

[HindleA]

http://www.24housing.co.uk/news/governm ... ht-to-buy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Government rejects CLG committee recommendation on Right to Buy

[Tubby Isaacs]

I don't want to be accused of ageism, but you've got to wonder about dementia.

He's always had a dickhead streak, but he has got much worse lately. And as has been pointed out, one particular group are getting more than their fair share of dickheadedness.

[HindleA]

Field wrote letter to "Penny "dick reference" Mordaunt expressing disappointment at lack of offset re the.removal of incentive not to die quickly enough/hodding a few bricks as well as an oxygen cylinder is a health outcome policy.

[Willow904]

.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I rant on a fair bit about how bad the likes of the Graun and NS are, but we don't just need a new left media outlet because of their inadequacies.

Another reason is that much of the existing "alternative" media (despite having some decent individual writers, not unlike the above) is so crushingly bad.

As if to illustrate this, SquawkBox has just been caught out in a screamingly obvious hoax about polling

[HindleA]

Have you ever witnessed mass killings/bloodshed,close up?.If not,maybe appreciate those of us that have and blanche at militaristic use of language.

[Tubby Isaacs]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/519949641500248/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What a bunch of charmers "We support Jeremy Corbyn" are. 32,000 members.

As Taylor Parkes said, one of the problems with Corbyn is that he's "their man".

[Willow904]

.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I rant on a fair bit about how bad the likes of the Graun and NS are, but we don't just need a new left media outlet because of their inadequacies.

Another reason is that much of the existing "alternative" media (despite having some decent individual writers, not unlike the above) is so crushingly bad.

As if to illustrate this, SquawkBox has just been caught out in a screamingly obvious hoax about polling

Agree. It's a lot better in America.

Not that it makes all that much difference to election results, by the look of it. Tough times.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Though it is a fair point that in the US the "space" occupied by the tabloid press here is largely taken up by talk radio.

[pk1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39499640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mr Corbyn, a longstanding ally of the former London mayor, said: "Ken Livingstone's comments have been grossly insensitive, and he has caused deep offence and hurt to the Jewish community.
"Labour's independently elected National Constitutional Committee has found Ken guilty of bringing the party into disrepute and suspended him for two years.
"It is deeply disappointing that, despite his long record of standing up to racism, Ken has failed to acknowledge or apologise for the hurt he has caused. Many people are understandably upset that he has continued to make offensive remarks which could open him to further disciplinary action.
"Since initiating the disciplinary process, I have not interfered with it and respect the independence of the party's disciplinary bodies. But Ken's subsequent comments and actions will now be considered by the National Executive Committee after representations from party members."

All of this would have been prevented if the NCC had had the bottle to expel him. Their cowardly fudge has created a great deal of hurt & resentment within the party & the Jewish communities. Unless the NEC can over-ride the NCC, what is the point of this investigation ? What is it that I am missing ?

[Tubby Isaacs]

And the petulance?

It is not absurd to call a coup a coup. You can deny it and gaslight all you like, but you're saying black is white, 2+2=5. It was an organised uprising with the intention of forcing Corbyn to stand down because as they damn well knew they couldn't defeat him in an election. I'm afraid the waterfowl in question is all too identifiable. We can go over this again and again but it was a coup.

"A coup" is trying to make it sound like Pinochet or something. Which is about where Corbyn's sense of international relations still is. See his nonsense on Venezuela.

It was a strike. He couldn't make people do jobs they no longer wanted to do.

The Labour vote didn't fall off a cliff after the strike. It's been declining steadily from the end of April.

http://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39499640

Mr Corbyn, a longstanding ally of the former London mayor, said: "Ken Livingstone's comments have been grossly insensitive, and he has caused deep offence and hurt to the Jewish community.
"Labour's independently elected National Constitutional Committee has found Ken guilty of bringing the party into disrepute and suspended him for two years.
"It is deeply disappointing that, despite his long record of standing up to racism, Ken has failed to acknowledge or apologise for the hurt he has caused. Many people are understandably upset that he has continued to make offensive remarks which could open him to further disciplinary action.
"Since initiating the disciplinary process, I have not interfered with it and respect the independence of the party's disciplinary bodies. But Ken's subsequent comments and actions will now be considered by the National Executive Committee after representations from party members."

All of this would have been prevented if the NCC had had the bottle to expel him. Their cowardly fudge has created a great deal of hurt & resentment within the party & the Jewish communities. Unless the NEC can over-ride the NCC, what is the point of this investigation ? What is it that I am missing ?

Apparently an NEC meeting in the near future has just been announced.

[Tubby Isaacs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39499640

Mr Corbyn, a longstanding ally of the former London mayor, said: "Ken Livingstone's comments have been grossly insensitive, and he has caused deep offence and hurt to the Jewish community.
"Labour's independently elected National Constitutional Committee has found Ken guilty of bringing the party into disrepute and suspended him for two years.
"It is deeply disappointing that, despite his long record of standing up to racism, Ken has failed to acknowledge or apologise for the hurt he has caused. Many people are understandably upset that he has continued to make offensive remarks which could open him to further disciplinary action.
"Since initiating the disciplinary process, I have not interfered with it and respect the independence of the party's disciplinary bodies. But Ken's subsequent comments and actions will now be considered by the National Executive Committee after representations from party members."

All of this would have been prevented if the NCC had had the bottle to expel him. Their cowardly fudge has created a great deal of hurt & resentment within the party & the Jewish communities. Unless the NEC can over-ride the NCC, what is the point of this investigation ? What is it that I am missing ?

There's too much committee speak, but I think Corbyn's trying to do the right thing there and get it sorted out. Fair play.

[Tubby Isaacs]

It's a bit like the Lord Rennard situation, except nobody high up in Labour is going out on a limb for Livingstone, like Lord Carlisle and a couple of others did. The leader in each case must have been tearing his hair out that a former ally won't just clear off for the sake of the team.

Getting an NEC meeting together straightaway is a good response, better than Clegg's with Rennard.

[pk1]

Aahhhh, this new NEC referral is to look at Livingstone's comments made subsequently to the commencement of the case that 'ended' yesterday.

Well, good & well done Corbyn for speaking out ! It is faintly amusing though to see people ardently supportive of Livingstone reverse-ferretting since Corbyn released this statement

[Tubby Isaacs]

And the petulance?

It is not absurd to call a coup a coup. You can deny it and gaslight all you like, but you're saying black is white, 2+2=5. It was an organised uprising with the intention of forcing Corbyn to stand down because as they damn well knew they couldn't defeat him in an election. I'm afraid the waterfowl in question is all too identifiable. We can go over this again and again but it was a coup.

"A coup" is trying to make it sound like Pinochet or something. Which is about where Corbyn's sense of international relations still is. See his nonsense on Venezuela.

It was a strike. He couldn't make people do jobs they no longer wanted to do.

The Labour vote didn't fall off a cliff after the strike. It's been declining steadily from the end of April.

http://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It wasn't a strike. They weren't just withholding labour, they were acting to force the leader out. People going on strike don't do so one by one according to a timetable worked out for the media.

Polls don't make sudden jumps, they take time to react to events.

The timetable wasn't "worked out for the media". It was worked out because Corbyn showed in the referendum campaign that he couldn't win an egg and spoon race. 2 months to be in the media looking prime ministerial, an opportunity nobody else has ever got. Labour support fell, with the PM on TV being called a liar by Gove and Johnson.

What I take from that is "seeing more of Jeremy" has always been the problem.

[Tubby Isaacs]

From the FT. There has indeed been some welcome realism from the Government. But I don't know how long Andrew Rosindell and all are going to look over there at Gibraltar and Trump, having been indulged by May so much.

Theresa May’s bad news for Brexiters

Only a week has passed since Theresa May triggered Article 50, much to the delight of committed Conservative Brexiters. But suddenly there is a good deal less for the party’s hardliners to celebrate.

During a trip to Jordan, Mrs May has given two indications that she is willing to compromise on her previously hard position on Brexit. Both concessions amount to positive news for British business leaders who are seeking signs of pragmatism and realism from the UK government. But they may provoke a nasty post-Article 50 hangover for harder Brexiters.

The first compromise regards the moment by which the UK hopes to agree a trade deal with the EU. Until now, Mrs May has been firm that the UK can conclude the divorce from the EU and sign a new trade agreement within the two years allowed under Article 50. As she said in her Lancaster House speech in January: “I want us to have reached an agreement about our future partnership by the time the two-year Article 50 process has concluded.”

On Friday the EU Council’s draft negotiation guidelines put paid to that idea. The EU said Britain would only be able to sign a trade deal with Brussels as a third party, after it had formally left the EU. On Tuesday, Mrs May did not rebut the EU’s line. Asked in Jordan if she accepted “third country status” for the final deal, the prime minister said:

“There’s obviously a legal situation in terms of how the EU can conduct trade negotiations. I’m clear that by the point at which we leave the EU, it’s right that everyone will know what the future arrangement, relationship, partnership between us and EU will be. That’s the sensible thing, it’s a pragmatic way to look at it.”

Her answer suggests that March 2019 might see little more than agreement on an outline for a future trade pact — and that the UK and EU might need to enter a lengthy transition period until the EU-UK trade deal can be signed.

The second climbdown regards the government’s approach to free movement after March 2019. Mrs May has always said that the UK will “take back control” of its borders at the moment Brexit happens. But asked to “rule out free movement in any transitional period once we leave the EU”, Mrs May said:

“If you think about it, once we’ve got the deal, once we’ve agreed what the new relationship will be for the future, it will be necessary for there to be a period of time when businesses and governments are adjusting systems and so forth, depending on the nature of the deal, a period of time during which that deal will be implemented.”

For business, which wants a slow transition to new rules covering valued EU workers, this is a welcome change of tone from the PM.

Of course, business should not take a soft Brexit landing for granted. There are plenty of Tory MPs who will accept no compromise and would prefer to break away from the EU without a deal. As Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond pointed out in an interview with Bloomberg on Wednesday:

“There are definitely some people on both sides who do not want a deal, they do not want to see Britain continuing to collaborate in what the prime minister described in a letter as a deep and special partnership with the European Union.”

The question now is whether Mrs May can see off the Tory right. She courted them willingly in the first phase of Brexit as she pursued the Article 50 process through the Commons. If she is serious about striking a deal with the EU, she will now have to disappoint them — and this could be dangerous.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Looking at Corbyn's 10 pledges. The one on reducing inequality just mentions tax. Has the other stuff been abandoned?

So we've basically got Gordo and Miliband's policy, after all that, probably a bit more so.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Jeremy Corbyn MP‏Verified account @jeremycorbyn 2h
My thoughts on @CadburyUK? I think it's a disgrace that publicly-owned RBS financed Kraft's purchase of Cadbury who then laid off UK workers

There speaks a shallow economic nationalist.

He thinks this sort of stuff is clever. It's not.

[HindleA]

Rarely watch TV so won't be watching but Panorama is about the benefit cap at 9.For those not interested.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08ll1g0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

Do you have a Chromecast, Hindles?

£30, you can then get any youtube or Dailymotion streamed from the phone on to TV. Months of fun with old documentaries.

Better than watching TV.

[frightful_oik]

Jeremy Corbyn MP‏Verified account @jeremycorbyn 2h
My thoughts on @CadburyUK? I think it's a disgrace that publicly-owned RBS financed Kraft's purchase of Cadbury who then laid off UK workers

There speaks a shallow economic nationalist.

He thinks this sort of stuff is clever. It's not.

I think it is. Think of the target audience.

[HindleA]

Tubby -will look into it,thanks for info.

[tinybgoat]

I don't want to be accused of ageism, but you've got to wonder about dementia.

I find that deeply offensive. What gives you the right to diagnose someone online? Or to assume that if they act like an arsehole they are mentally ill?

Whatever the cause, it's sad to see, but he's not exactly been reticent in commenting on others health over the last few years, and there's been plenty of discussion online already about his decline.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/analysis/ ... en-1.56530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only John McDonnell, Mr Livingstone's former colleague on the Greater London Council, seems to have got the measure of the man.
The de facto Deputy Leader is furious at the long leash given to Mr Livingstone and has been expressing his concern about the mental health of the man once famed for the sharpness of his political brain. Within Mr Corbyn's inner circle, speculation has mounted as to the reasons for Mr Livingstone's apparent increasingly slurred and repetitive delivery.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Jeremy Corbyn MP‏Verified account @jeremycorbyn 2h
My thoughts on @CadburyUK? I think it's a disgrace that publicly-owned RBS financed Kraft's purchase of Cadbury who then laid off UK workers

There speaks a shallow economic nationalist.

He thinks this sort of stuff is clever. It's not.

I think it is. Think of the target audience.

I think absolutely lots of people are appalled at what Cadbury's have become, and there's a point to be made out of the takeover code, and the rights of the workers.

But bank we're trying to sell acts like a bank? Not sure that's a problem.

[NonOxCol]

Rarely watch TV so won't be watching but Panorama is about the benefit cap at 9.For those not interested.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08ll1g0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Judging from Twitter, I think the BBC 6 o'clock news features have already done the necessary propaganda work. The strategy was to exclusively cover unemployed people with at least 4 kids (in one case 7) and ignore all the other heinous "reforms" such as those affecting bereaved families.

[PorFavor]

I don't want to be accused of ageism, but you've got to wonder about dementia.

I find that deeply offensive. What gives you the right to diagnose someone online? Or to assume that if they act like an arsehole they are mentally ill?

Whatever the cause, it's sad to see, but he's not exactly been reticent in commenting on others health over the last few years, and there's been plenty of discussion online already about his decline.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/analysis/ ... en-1.56530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only John McDonnell, Mr Livingstone's former colleague on the Greater London Council, seems to have got the measure of the man.
The de facto Deputy Leader is furious at the long leash given to Mr Livingstone and has been expressing his concern about the mental health of the man once famed for the sharpness of his political brain. Within Mr Corbyn's inner circle, speculation has mounted as to the reasons for Mr Livingstone's apparent increasingly slurred and repetitive delivery.

I missed that (the last quote). Of course, John McDonnell isn't a medical bod, but he presumably is in a position to note any obvious changes in Ken Livingstone's behaviour.

[SpinningHugo]

I find that deeply offensive. What gives you the right to diagnose someone online? Or to assume that if they act like an arsehole they are mentally ill?

Whatever the cause, it's sad to see, but he's not exactly been reticent in commenting on others health over the last few years, and there's been plenty of discussion online already about his decline.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/analysis/ ... en-1.56530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only John McDonnell, Mr Livingstone's former colleague on the Greater London Council, seems to have got the measure of the man.
The de facto Deputy Leader is furious at the long leash given to Mr Livingstone and has been expressing his concern about the mental health of the man once famed for the sharpness of his political brain. Within Mr Corbyn's inner circle, speculation has mounted as to the reasons for Mr Livingstone's apparent increasingly slurred and repetitive delivery.

[/quote]

I missed that (the last quote). Of course, John McDonnell isn't a medical bod, but he presumably is in a position to note any obvious changes in Ken Livingstone's behaviour.[/quote]

Livingstone and McDonnell loathe one another since the former sacked the latter for being too extreme. At the GLC

[RogerOThornhill]

Livingstone and McDonnell loathe one another since the former sacked the latter for being too extreme. At the GLC

Over tactics about how to deal with government rate-capping. By the Thatcher government.

is that really "being too extreme"?

[PorFavor]

By the way - that quote above, attributed to me (in SpinningHugo's post) was not written by me.

I just thought that I'd set the record straight.

[RogerOThornhill]

I see that Mark Reckless is apparently trying to scuttle back to the Tories on the Welsh Assembly...but they won't have him.

And he might not be the only one.

Marc Webber‏ @marcwebber 3h3 hours ago
More
Marc Webber Retweeted Mabon ap Gwynfor
Cardiff Bay rumour mill suggesting Mark Reckless has quit UKIP to join Welsh Conservatives; Nathan Gill to follow.

[SpinningHugo]

By the way - that quote above, attributed to me (in SpinningHugo's post) was not written by me.

I just thought that I'd set the record straight.

Sorry. Was the 3 quote thing and I've been away from my desk so on a phone all day. I'll try to be more careful.

[Tubby Isaacs]

From a friend on Facebook, yesterday.

Just been reading the "We Support Jeremy Corbyn" Facebook group, to get a sense of the mood over there at this rather unfortunate moment in time.
Well, someone had just linked to an interview with Owen Jones headlined "Why I'm defending Jews on the Left". It wasn't what you'd call a sensational piece, Mr Jones opining that the government of Israel treats the Palestinians badly, but hey, come on, that's no excuse for antisemitism.
Reaction was... well, let's call it mixed. Most people commenting were angry at Jones for "betraying" the great JC, of course, but the rest were evenly split: Group A protested that this was all rubbish and antisemitism is simply not tolerated on the Left (it's all a conspiracy to discredit Corbyn because the "establishment" is "scared" of him); meanwhile, Group B were responding with blatantly antisemitic memes, tropes and general abuse ("He's obviously been bought - and we all know who by!" etc etc etc).
Before I'd finished reading the thread it was deleted by the group moderators. I suppose this will convince Group A they were right all along.

As he and I keep saying, the problem with Corbyn is that awful people see him as their man.

[frightful_oik]

I think absolutely lots of people are appalled at what Cadbury's have become, and there's a point to be made out of the takeover code, and the rights of the workers.

But bank we're trying to sell acts like a bank? Not sure that's a problem.

Blame for Cadbury's goes to gov. The target audience doesn't do subtle nuances.

[HindleA]

"Tories are shitheads"
Supreme Leader of both the known and unknown Universe.

Evidence based quote.

[HindleA]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 35216.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Domestic violence victim to be left on street when car she is forced to live in is towed away and crushed