Saturday 8th and Sunday 9th April 2017

[Tubby Isaacs]

McDonnell blaming disunity for poor showing, again. They've stopped saying "neck and neck before the coup" but still trying to imply the slide started when the MPs resigned. It was already happening before, and very worryingly, happening when Corbyn was in the media a lot with little internal dissent.

By contrast Cameron was being called a liar on TV by his party at the time. He lost support too but not to Labour.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Another word on the free school meals policy. It's snappy and easily understood. Could be good in these elections?

A lot to be said for having a policy like that to talk about now.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Awful Lord Andrew Green being taken down by Simon Cox on Twitter.

[AnatolyKasparov]

McDonnell blaming disunity for poor showing, again. They've stopped saying "neck and neck before the coup" but still trying to imply the slide started when the MPs resigned. It was already happening before, and very worryingly, happening when Corbyn was in the media a lot with little internal dissent.

By contrast Cameron was being called a liar on TV by his party at the time. He lost support too but not to Labour.

I really do think you are overstating this - there was a fairly minor dip in Labour support before the referendum, but a much bigger one afterwards.

Now, I'm not saying that it was just the "coup" that was responsible for that - the Tories changed PM and May has proved popular thus far as we all know. But it didn't help.

(and the real scandal of what much of the SC did for many, was the fact it doomed any chance of holding the Tories to account in the *immediate aftermath* of June 23)

[tinyclanger2]

Just did a PorFavor - whereby I did not notice that we had moved on to page 4.

[Tubby Isaacs]

What would Corby have done in the aftermath? Cameron resigned, who would he be holding to account? Given his "article 50 now" faux pas, I didn't have high expectation.

[tinyclanger2]

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017 ... icy-agenda" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“There is a danger that Brexit could suck the oxygen out of attempts to implement a sweeping programme of social and economic reform that is badly needed at home,” Robb said.

Even within parts of the Tory party, MPs and others worry that Brexit is now the only show in Whitehall, one so all-consuming, so draining of civil service and ministerial energies that everything else – the May agenda included – is on the back burner.

Precisely.

[tinyclanger2]

Oh and another massive surprise.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
UK to 'scale down' climate change and illegal wildlife measures to bring in post-Brexit trade, secret documents reveal

[tinyclanger2]

Likewise, there will be no substantive change in most other areas either. The misnamed “Great Repeal Bill” is neither great nor a repeal – it will only keep existing EU laws in a holding pattern until the UK decides what to do with them. All 83,000 or more.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 74596.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good luck with that Theresa.

[Tubby Isaacs]

They're likely to remain there for some time. If you're saying to the EU "give us what we want or we deregulate madly", you don't want to have already deregulated madly.

[SpinningHugo]

McDonnell blaming disunity for poor showing, again. They've stopped saying "neck and neck before the coup" but still trying to imply the slide started when the MPs resigned. It was already happening before, and very worryingly, happening when Corbyn was in the media a lot with little internal dissent.

By contrast Cameron was being called a liar on TV by his party at the time. He lost support too but not to Labour.

I really do think you are overstating this - there was a fairly minor dip in Labour support before the referendum, but a much bigger one afterwards.

Now, I'm not saying that it was just the "coup" that was responsible for that - the Tories changed PM and May has proved popular thus far as we all know. But it didn't help.

(and the real scandal of what much of the SC did for many, was the fact it doomed any chance of holding the Tories to account in the *immediate aftermath* of June 23)

What doomed that was Corbyn calling for art 50 to be invoked immediately, the day after the referendum.

[AnatolyKasparov]

To be more precise, that was what he was widely reported as saying.

His spokespeople claimed that he said - or at least meant to say - that the *process* leading up to that had to begin immediately. A much more defensible position to many.

Tbh in the aftermath of such a shocking (in all senses) result, feelings on all sides were running high and a period of reflection across Labour would have been the right course.

Corbyn is partly culpable for what actually happened due to his clumsiness, but (as with many) I can't help but blame the likes of Benn Jnr more.

[SpinningHugo]

To be more precise, that was what he was widely reported as saying.

His spokespeople claimed that he said - or at least meant to say - that the *process* leading up to that had to begin immediately. A much more defensible position to many.

Tbh in the aftermath of such a shocking (in all senses) result, feelings on all sides were running high and a period of reflection across Labour would have been the right course.

Corbyn is partly culpable for what actually happened due to his clumsiness, but (as with many) I can't help but blame the likes of Benn Jnr more.

I am afraid that is flatly false. He said it "now needs to be triggered" on the Today programme (I was listening) and then again on Sky. There was no "process" qualification at all.

The Today programme used to be archived, if it still is ill link with the timestamp

[SpinningHugo]

To be more precise, that was what he was widely reported as saying.

His spokespeople claimed that he said - or at least meant to say - that the *process* leading up to that had to begin immediately. A much more defensible position to many.

Tbh in the aftermath of such a shocking (in all senses) result, feelings on all sides were running high and a period of reflection across Labour would have been the right course.

Corbyn is partly culpable for what actually happened due to his clumsiness, but (as with many) I can't help but blame the likes of Benn Jnr more.

As for "he meant to say"


Pfffft.

Don't blame reporters for verbatim quotation.

[AnatolyKasparov]

My point is, that is what he INTENDED to say - whether he actually did or not.

Assuming your citations are correct, he mis-spoke.

Point is, people should have calmed down and accepted that such things can easily happen when you give sleep-deprived interviews on the spur of the moment.

But no, SC members chose to see it as evidence of his fundamental perfidy and treachery instead. Even leaving aside that certain amongst them had been gossiping to hacks about a possible mass walkout BEFORE the referendum, trying to paint Corbyn with the brush of Brexit blame was always going to damage the Labour brand more generally.

And so it proved......

[tinyclanger2]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... a-tensions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Moscow says decision to cancel trip amid increased tensions over Syria shows Britain has no real influence on world affairs

Well we won't have time to have any real influence on anything

[Tubby Isaacs]

"Start a process" would have sent the pound down further. The government didn't say that, whether out of design or because there was no PM.

[SpinningHugo]

My point is, that is what he INTENDED to say - whether he actually did or not.

Assuming your citations are correct, he mis-spoke.

Point is, people should have calmed down and accepted that such things can easily happen when you give sleep-deprived interviews on the spur of the moment.

But no, SC members chose to see it as evidence of his fundamental perfidy and treachery instead. Even leaving aside that certain amongst them had been gossiping to hacks about a possible mass walkout BEFORE the referendum, trying to paint Corbyn with the brush of Brexit blame was always going to damage the Labour brand more generally.

And so it proved......

Corbyn's attitude before and since the referendum has been consistent with his longstanding views on tge EU (ie that it is a capitalist ramp we should leave).

As Brexit is *the* political issue of our era, that is a bit of an issue.

And some of the Brexit blame does attach to him. Most of lt? No. Would it have happened anyway? Probably. Does that mean, as you often claim, that no responsibility attaches? No.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

My point is, that is what he INTENDED to say - whether he actually did or not.

Assuming your citations are correct, he mis-spoke.

Point is, people should have calmed down and accepted that such things can easily happen when you give sleep-deprived interviews on the spur of the moment.

But no, SC members chose to see it as evidence of his fundamental perfidy and treachery instead. Even leaving aside that certain amongst them had been gossiping to hacks about a possible mass walkout BEFORE the referendum, trying to paint Corbyn with the brush of Brexit blame was always going to damage the Labour brand more generally.

And so it proved......

Corbyn's attitude before and since the referendum has been consistent with his longstanding views in the EU (is that it is a capitalist ramp we should leave).

As Brexit is *the* political issue of our era, that is a bit of an issue.

And some of the Brexit blame does attach to him. Pro.arilt? No. Would it have happened anyway? Probably. Does that mean, as you often claim, that no responsibility attaches? No.

Corbyn's dominant theme since the Referendum is that he is a democrat.

You know I don't support everything he does, but on this I think it's hard to argue with him.

He's a democrat. There was a Referendum.

[TechnicalEphemera]

My point is, that is what he INTENDED to say - whether he actually did or not.

Assuming your citations are correct, he mis-spoke.

Point is, people should have calmed down and accepted that such things can easily happen when you give sleep-deprived interviews on the spur of the moment.

But no, SC members chose to see it as evidence of his fundamental perfidy and treachery instead. Even leaving aside that certain amongst them had been gossiping to hacks about a possible mass walkout BEFORE the referendum, trying to paint Corbyn with the brush of Brexit blame was always going to damage the Labour brand more generally.

And so it proved......

Corbyn's attitude before and since the referendum has been consistent with his longstanding views in the EU (is that it is a capitalist ramp we should leave).

As Brexit is *the* political issue of our era, that is a bit of an issue.

And some of the Brexit blame does attach to him. Pro.arilt? No. Would it have happened anyway? Probably. Does that mean, as you often claim, that no responsibility attaches? No.

Corbyn's dominant theme since the Referendum is that he is a democrat.

You know I don't support everything he does, but on this I think it's hard to argue with him.

He's a democrat. There was a Referendum.

Corbyn isn't a democrat, he believes in democracy only when it suits him.

If Corbyn was a democrat why would he talk about sharing sovereignty of The Falklands with Argentina? Despite 98% of the islanders voting against such a proposal.

The Labour leader sparked controversy in a television interview last week by saying he wanted discussions on “some reasonable accommodation” with Argentina.

While saying the islanders should have an “enormous say” in any discussions on their future, he stopped short of saying they should have a veto over any new

Source The Guardian.

You also can't argue he intended to say anything, nobody knows what he "intended" to say. He demanded immediate triggering of A50, he only backpeddled after the fact.

The Lib Dem resurgence pretty much corresponds to Corbyn's position on Brexit. CiF is of course unrepresentative but the howls of fury surely cannot have passed you by.

[TechnicalEphemera]

McDonnell blaming disunity for poor showing, again. They've stopped saying "neck and neck before the coup" but still trying to imply the slide started when the MPs resigned. It was already happening before, and very worryingly, happening when Corbyn was in the media a lot with little internal dissent.

By contrast Cameron was being called a liar on TV by his party at the time. He lost support too but not to Labour.

The second rule of Fight Back Starts Now club is that nothing is ever Corbyns fault.

Blame the media, your own MPs, the weather, people voting Tory in a protest against the elite, anything really.

Because if Corbyn ever takes responsibility for anything, he will then have to do something to arrest this train wreck.

[Willow904]

Jeremy Corbyn gave a prepared speech in response to the referendum result on the Saturday afternoon, before anyone from the shadow cabinet had resigned. He had every opportunity to say what he intended to say, clearly and convincingly. He didn't. A moment in political life where the nation needed our political leaders to step up to the challenge. And he just didn't. If not then, when? I can't turn back the clock and not have heard that speech. In that moment Corbyn lost me, lost my support, through his own words, his own carefully prepared words that amounted to little more than impenetrable waffle. I'm still waiting for him to get to the point now.

The idea that Labour voters who supported Corbyn and disliked the vote of no confidence in him have since drifted away from Labour because of it makes no sense to me. Their man won, he's still leader. Does it not make more sense that for those for whom Corbyn's desultory response to the EU referendum result was the last straw, having seen that he was going to cling on indefinitely, lost patience and started to look elsewhere for political inspiration?

[HindleA]

‘Rape clause’ in family welfare cap harms mothers and children




https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... plnews_d-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

Call me naive, but I think that "7 out of 10" was the genuine Corbyn speaking. And a *lot* of Labour voters will have shared that assessment of the EU.

Of course, that didn't stop the usual suspects stamping their feet and claiming it DISGRACEFUL that he didn't feign some totally false and gushing 11/10 enthusiasm. And it didn't stop some of the very same people DEMANDING that a coach and horses be driven through free movement within days of the actual result

[HindleA]

According to STimes 6 London CCG's are planning to restrict cataract surgery to all but exceptional cases



Fair enough,it is only your sight.

[HindleA]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 74591.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



French presidential elections: Marine Le Pen rally in Corsica descends into chaos as demonstrators storm venue

[AnatolyKasparov]

Melenchon is surging in the polls there, has just overtaken Fillon in at least one survey

[SpinningHugo]

Call me naive, but I think that "7 out of 10" was the genuine Corbyn speaking. And a *lot* of Labour voters will have shared that assessment of the EU.

Of course, that didn't stop the usual suspects stamping their feet and claiming it DISGRACEFUL that he didn't feign some totally false and gushing 11/10 enthusiasm. And it didn't stop some of the very same people DEMANDING that a coach and horses be driven through free movement within days of the actual result

You're naive.

[HindleA]

You are a rude sneery arsehole,in my humble opinion.

[AnatolyKasparov]

If you say so, I've only followed (and for much of the time, been actively involved in) politics for some 35 years now

And that may or may not be an appropriate note on which to bring up post 5,000

[HindleA]

[Tubby Isaacs]

Call me naive, but I think that "7 out of 10" was the genuine Corbyn speaking. And a *lot* of Labour voters will have shared that assessment of the EU.

Of course, that didn't stop the usual suspects stamping their feet and claiming it DISGRACEFUL that he didn't feign some totally false and gushing 11/10 enthusiasm. And it didn't stop some of the very same people DEMANDING that a coach and horses be driven through free movement within days of the actual result

He'll be happy then to have Labour MPs giving him 7 out of 10 for his leadership in 2020. Lots of Labour voters give him that, so it's OK?

Case for staying in was 10/10. That was what we were voting on.

[SpinningHugo]

Have we done OJ on why he never seriously thought what he said?

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/ow ... r-campbell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

Melenchon is surging in the polls there, has just overtaken Fillon in at least one survey

He's worked out you can just say any old rubbish in the first round, provided that's the limit of your ambition.

It's a strange system.

[Tubby Isaacs]

McDonnell blaming disunity for poor showing, again. They've stopped saying "neck and neck before the coup" but still trying to imply the slide started when the MPs resigned. It was already happening before, and very worryingly, happening when Corbyn was in the media a lot with little internal dissent.

By contrast Cameron was being called a liar on TV by his party at the time. He lost support too but not to Labour.

The second rule of Fight Back Starts Now club is that nothing is ever Corbyns fault.

Blame the media, your own MPs, the weather, people voting Tory in a protest against the elite, anything really.

Because if Corbyn ever takes responsibility for anything, he will then have to do something to arrest this train wreck.

Shadow Chancellors don't say it's the leader''s fault, I don't expect that. But the polls are so bad, I think they need to say something. Maybe admit to something he's done wrong, that could go down quite well. I don't think he's given enough sense of actual projects all the scary big numbers of investment would buy. Something like that?

[HindleA]

I refer myself to the mods for use of bad language/insult.I don't know the guy,in my defence,even I am not immune from knee -jerk reactionism.I think a "watch yourself" would suffice.

[tinyclanger2]

Naughty Mr H.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@TE

That comment about Corbyn, democracy and the Falklands.

Dear me.

[HindleA]

Imperfect Mr.H,but I try.

Tosser

[tinyclanger2]

Imperfect Mr.H,but I try.

Tosser

[Tubby Isaacs]

Marine LePen, who is doing surprisingly well with Jews, denies Vichy France responsibility for rounding up Jews.

[HindleA]

TC 2 You have to remember,I am outside(there are some sounds of revelry and/or devil worship ritual,depending on imagination but definately screaming whether laughter or fear,hard to tell) wearing a blue dressing gown with a plant pot on my head,so I don't lose it,and speaking in the attempted voice of Geoffrey Whitehead,given this is the first week in years where I haven't heard his dulcet tones on Radio 4/4 xtra,as to level of seriousness.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Have we done OJ on why he never seriously thought what he said?

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/ow ... r-campbell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is that actually real??

No wonder Owen has gone into hiding from enraged Corbynistas on Twitter.

[HindleA]

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-04-09/wong ... ta-breach/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Wonga warning to 245,000 UK customers after possible data breach

[TechnicalEphemera]

@TE

That comment about Corbyn, democracy and the Falklands.

Dear me.

Why, you said Corbyn was a democrat, I gave you a absolute clear example where he had no interest in following democratic principles. I actually think it is a big deal because JC is prepared to impose foreign sovereignty on British citizens without their consent.

Are we somehow supposed to pretend he never says or thinks this stuff?

[TechnicalEphemera]

McDonnell blaming disunity for poor showing, again. They've stopped saying "neck and neck before the coup" but still trying to imply the slide started when the MPs resigned. It was already happening before, and very worryingly, happening when Corbyn was in the media a lot with little internal dissent.

By contrast Cameron was being called a liar on TV by his party at the time. He lost support too but not to Labour.

The second rule of Fight Back Starts Now club is that nothing is ever Corbyns fault.

Blame the media, your own MPs, the weather, people voting Tory in a protest against the elite, anything really.

Because if Corbyn ever takes responsibility for anything, he will then have to do something to arrest this train wreck.

Shadow Chancellors don't say it's the leader''s fault, I don't expect that. But the polls are so bad, I think they need to say something. Maybe admit to something he's done wrong, that could go down quite well. I don't think he's given enough sense of actual projects all the scary big numbers of investment would buy. Something like that?

I wasn't suggesting he turn round and nail Corbyn.

But the narrative it is all the media is learnt helplessness.

Take responsibility, identify a credible winning coalition in the UK, create policy and strategy to capture the votes of that coalition. If you fail so be it, but at least bloody try. Plan A has failed, create plan B.

Blaming splits and the media whilst doing nothing is rabbit in the headlights stuff, or deliberate sabotage depending on how generous you are to him.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... of-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



'It's a shambles': data shows most asylum seekers put in poorest parts of Britain
Analysis shows five times as many live in poorest third of country as in richest third, sparking calls for overhaul of system

[seeingclearly]

@seeingclearly

But the extra costs recognised contingent on work but mysteriously disappears/reduces otherwise as far as DWP goes?Of course there will also be offset costs to the NHS and SS caused from reductions/removals from those where the scheme is not a feasible option.Realise I am.ploughing a lonely furrow in pursuance of the its a PROXY line and whilst fully recognising the removal of the ability to access to the scheme and my call/reminder not to forget the many where it wasn't anyway.

Message seemed clear to me, in work and we will support you otherwise you are ligging of the state and probably deserve to be shit on from a great height. I would bensurprised, having in the past had direct experience of working with people administering Access to Work if very many people got anything near a fraction of this.

-----------
I have been incensed today to find myself targeted by SCOPE who say they are going to work on behalf 13 million disabled people, only show photos of learning disabled people, waffle a lot about work, and to top it all use the phrase 'the unneccessary costs of disability'. As if we were drowning in a younger generation of sound bodied differently abled people. No doubt some of these will find work for a while in very low paid 'exempt from normal regs' employment. (I still remember the shock I felt when I found a whole division of oldish - 40-50ish - nail packers with learning disabilities, bagging up nails screws and tacks into twenties, to be sold at corner shops. They were getting £2 a week 'just in case it interfered with their income support.) No definition of the 13 million, btw, no acknowledgement that this figure includes those with terminal and progressive, in some cases untreatable conditions, or age related degenerative diseases and conditions, genetic conditions, mental health and so very much more...... but we will enable them by making sure they got the opportunity to work. By the time I finished reading it I was incandescent. Even worse than a claim from one of these third sector bunch that they had 'stopped the cuts to disability' support, by talking to government. Did they heck, well what about those disappearing motability cars then!

Full circle, I know, but then there seem to be no limitations to all of this, proxy, yes everywhere you turn.

[seeingclearly]

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017 ... icy-agenda" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“There is a danger that Brexit could suck the oxygen out of attempts to implement a sweeping programme of social and economic reform that is badly needed at home,” Robb said.

Even within parts of the Tory party, MPs and others worry that Brexit is now the only show in Whitehall, one so all-consuming, so draining of civil service and ministerial energies that everything else – the May agenda included – is on the back burner.

Precisely.

It will be, regardless, for the whole of this governments term of office. In the meantime they will use statutory instruments to tinker with the goodies George Osborne left for them to play with, and demolish what little standing we had left in the world. And will consider and maybe even convince the public that what they are doing is good governance. Just hoping the wheels of their tumbril will somehow fall off.

[HindleA]

The possible replacement of extra costs loss via PIP via ATW was previously signalled-and therefore intentional as regards contingency imposition despite no change,thus undermining the whole philosophical underpinning(and evidentially proven cost effectiveness)of choice.The reform was fundamentally flawed from the outset with minimal input,as ever,from people living with,rather than "professionally" involved in specific aspects and thus little or no account is taken of the daily lived experience in practical terms.