Thursday 13th April 2017

Post by **refitman** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 7:09 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 7:16 am

Ouch. Angela Rayner getting kicked around on radio 4.

Labour is let down by those hypocrites, like Abbott who send their own children to private school. The cry "hypocrite" then cripples the Labour case.

People like Abbott should be free to send their children to any school they like. But they should then resign as Labour MPs.

There is no case for reintroducing grammars. We need a proper opposition to stop the Tories.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 8:17 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Ouch. Angela Rayner getting kicked around on radio 4.

Labour is let down by those hypocrites, like Abbott who send their own children to private school. The cry "hypocrite" then cripples the Labour case.

People like Abbott should be free to send their children to any school they like. But they should then resign as Labour MPs.

There is no case for reintroducing grammars. We need a proper opposition to stop the Tories.

I didn't hear it, but I see quite a few people on Twitter using this interview as a means of having a dig at Abbott.

Rayner has the simple advantage of being right on this I think most would agree, regardless of other politicians' choices for their own kids.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 8:19 am

Oh and how rude of me...

Good Corbyn

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 8:43 am

Meanwhile the UK is looking like a paragon of diplomacy (not)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/b ... l-10215170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Boris Johnson brands Russia 'a lifeline for Assad's murderous regime' as it stops UN condemning Syrian chemical attack'

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hayesbrown/rus ... e-shit-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

russias-un-deputy-looks-like-hes-going-to-beat-the-shit-out

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 9:01 am

Latest,indeed last DWP monthtly statistical summary

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... aries-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 9:05 am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hundreds of children's playgrounds in England close due to cuts
Councils shut 214 playgrounds in financial years 2014-16 blaming ‘unprecedented budget constraints’, FOI requests show

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 9:22 am

Morning all.

Chris Cook‏Verified account @xtophercook 56m56 minutes ago
More
"A new wave of grammars, open to all children" is such a strange turn of phrase. @BBCRadio4

Well quite.

If they really were going to be open to all children, they'd be a comprehensive.

And.

Sian Griffiths‏Verified account @SianGriffiths6 8m8 minutes ago
More
Mmmm, not a lot of support for @JustineGreening on Twitter on #grammars right now...

Nope.

basically it's "DfE fails to prove grammars work with existing definition of children in low-income households...so come up with a new one which no-one really understands. Voodoo statistics it's being called.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 9:29 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Chris Cook‏Verified account @xtophercook 56m56 minutes ago
More
"A new wave of grammars, open to all children" is such a strange turn of phrase. @BBCRadio4
Well quite.

If they really were going to be open to all children, they'd be a comprehensive.

And.

Sian Griffiths‏Verified account @SianGriffiths6 8m8 minutes ago
More
Mmmm, not a lot of support for @JustineGreening on Twitter on #grammars right now...
Nope.

basically it's "DfE fails to prove grammars work with existing definition of children in low-income households...so come up with a new one which no-one really understands. Voodoo statistics it's being called.

But they've based their "grammar schools work for children in low-income families" thing on the basis of the old definition. That point should be flagged up and ridiculed mercilessly.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 9:34 am

And what was termed a killer stat...

Chris Cook‏Verified account @xtophercook 13h13 hours ago
More
Replying to @xtophercook
For those of you afflicted with monomania, Westminster FSM kids actually get higher grades than selective Kent's non-FSM kids.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 9:49 am

Morning.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brilliant first response as well - do check his profile if you don't know who he is.

This country is fucked.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 10:08 am

For those who don't know, the first respondent there is a Scum journalist. Every bit as meretricious and mendacious as one would expect, then.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 10:20 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... est-pupils" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

justine-greening-denies-grammar-school-drive-ignores-poorest-pupils

Angela Rayner doing some very good work on this. Digging into the figures.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 10:32 am

NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brilliant first response as well - do check his profile if you don't know who he is.

This country is fucked.

Lord Wood is indeed very good.

Poor sod.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 11:15 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... est-pupils

justine-greening-denies-grammar-school-drive-ignores-poorest-pupils

Angela Rayner doing some very good work on this. Digging into the figures.

I've been thinking for a while that people have misunderstood Mayhem's 'just about managing' line, imo they're looking at families with something upwards of £30k earned income. Poorer people just don't enter into their thinking at all.
Greening's confirming it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 12:22 pm

Stewart Wood is indeed one of the best people on Twitter.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 12:22 pm

I've just received an information pack about the Metro Mayor for West of England election in the post. I'm still not entirely convinced the role is necessary. It will be interesting to see turnout. We don't have any local elections where I am, but presumably there will be in other areas that are also voting for the Metro Mayor.

As some of you know, I'm concerned about how the boundary changes will affect my area and wondering if it may be necessary to vote tactically for the Libdems to best challenge the Tory incumbent. I have to admit, such a tactical vote may prove hard to cast! I really don't like the look of the Libdem candidate for Metro Mayor. I don't think I can even bring myself to give him my second vote!

You'll all be glad to hear that the Labour candidate easily looks best on paper. Admittedly less so in the photographic stakes, something I worried a little about when I helped pick her, but if she does win (unlikely, I think?) I'm confident she'd be good in what will ultimately be something of a negotiating, co-ordinating kind of role. As such, I may give the independent candidate my second vote as they seem to have the right kind of experience, though it could be a wasted vote.

The Libdem was an early favourite, I believe, but otherwise I'm uncertain how the contest is shaping up. The Tory candidate looks truly awful, although admittedly better than the Ukip one, who looks horrendous.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 12:34 pm

Lovely country we're building here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -residency" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 12:43 pm

Given the voting system for these mayoral posts Willow (supplementary vote, isn't it?) you can still pick Labour as your first choice should you wish?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 12:53 pm

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In a stunning rebuke of a former close political ally, Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday angrily resigned from Donald Trump’s 2020 re-election campaign.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 12:59 pm

gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... est-pupils

justine-greening-denies-grammar-school-drive-ignores-poorest-pupils

Angela Rayner doing some very good work on this. Digging into the figures.
I've been thinking for a while that people have misunderstood Mayhem's 'just about managing' line, imo they're looking at families with something upwards of £30k earned income. Poorer people just don't enter into their thinking at all.
Greening's confirming it.

What is an ordinary working person? PM's grammar schools report has the answer (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... the-answer

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 1:04 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Given the voting system for these mayoral posts Willow (supplementary vote, isn't it?) you can still pick Labour as your first choice should you wish?

Yes, I can vote Labour for my first choice, even if they don't stand a chance, because I can use my second vote to influence the main contest. So its my second vote I'm worried about wasting. Of course, if Labour make it to the last two, I'll have agonized over it for nothing! But if it does come down to the Tory and Libdem, a second vote for the Libdem could help keep the Tory out, while a vote for the independent would be a waste. On the other hand, the independent could be really popular.....

Tactical voting is difficult, without really knowing the lie of the land. Labour are strong in Bristol, the Tories we strong elsewhere, but the Libdems are strong runners up everywhere plus independents have done well locally in other contests. It's a dilemma, because I really don't want the Tory to win, he looks really awful!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 1:32 pm

Afternoon

Labour will always be open to being called hypocrites - no matter what the subject

As the party is built around equality, redistribution and solidarity then any movement away from this eg sending a child to public school is jumped on

You can go on about Blair, 'Two Jags', Corbyn coming from an upper middle-class family (and has a brother called Piers) and also any time someone has spent some of their money on something the tabloids define as 'extravagant' makes them vulnerable to this

In the end they can never win on this topic as there is always an example

For all these examples though there are many more in word and deed that put a lie to the charges of hypocrisy but it won't stop them coming

The Tories, are as always, pretty immune from this because we all expect them to be selfish, money-grabbing sociapaths so if one sends their kid to a comp (although it won't be an inner-city comp like mine was I am sure) there is a flurry of 'man of the people' headlines, or look when Cameron flew on EasyJet - down and dirty with the plebs!

Labour politicians are expected to be cleaner than clean, whiter than white because of the message the party wants to give as a whole....and it is ridiculously unrealistic.....so what if Abbott sent her kids to private school - she is entitled to (although I depise the fact we have these institutions but that is another story) and she should understand the comments that will be made

That does not, however, undermine the overall message of the Labour Party, given over by someone such as Rayner'

The only people who use these types of argument have no love of the Labour Party, because no matter how many 'hypocrites' we are supposed to have they are vastly outnumbered by the entitled bunch of chinless wonders on the other side!

Edited to add - a working (wo)man made good is a 'hypocrite' if s/he continues to support Labour despite any obvious sign of the wealth s/he has accrued but is a solid example of aspiration if they become a Tory!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 1:56 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
You can go on about Blair, 'Two Jags', Corbyn coming from an upper middle-class family (and has a brother called Piers) and also any time someone has spent some of their money on something the tabloids define as 'extravagant' makes them vulnerable to this

No. Nobody is responsible for their parents wealth, or where their parents sent them to school. That is nothing to do with hypocrisy.

Sending your own children to private school, while saying you disapprove of people doing that?

Grotesque.

Corbyn himself of course has behaved in a completely honourable way in this regard, and is not a hypocrite.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 2:00 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
You can go on about Blair, 'Two Jags', Corbyn coming from an upper middle-class family (and has a brother called Piers) and also any time someone has spent some of their money on something the tabloids define as 'extravagant' makes them vulnerable to this

No. Nobody is responsible for their parents wealth, or where their parents sent them to school. That is nothing to do with hypocrisy.

Sending your own children to private school, while saying you disapprove of people doing that?

Grotesque.

Corbyn himself of course has behaved in a completely honourable way in this regard, and is not a hypocrite.

Um, grotesque?

Wrong in my view but 'grotesque

And once you have finished with this example then I am sure CCHQ will give you some more

As far as I know it is not Labour policy to abolish private schools

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 2:10 pm

It's not so much CCHQ as the left more broadly who were very upset by Abbott. Slandering London schools as irredeemably racist and a conveyor belt for gangs, just as huge investment and effort was going into them. It was a huge insult to all the people doing it.

I think this is very poisonous, unlike Prescott having a Jag. It's a problem for Corbyn (who is principled on this) because she's one of his few strong supporters.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 2:22 pm

How many years are people going to bang on about it? Which school Abbott sent her son to is ancient history, surely.
I think I read somewhere that he actually was responsible, she'd given him the choice, maybe you'd say her principles should have prevented that.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 2:26 pm

Incidentally, I and 2 of my siblings passed our 11-plus and went to grammar school, later converted to a comp. One sister failed and went to the secondary modern, she was the one my parents offered to send to private school. She declined as it happened, much preferred the sec mod with the pressure of 'cleverer' siblings taken away.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:22 pm

gilsey wrote:How many years are people going to bang on about it? Which school Abbott sent her son to is ancient history, surely.
I think I read somewhere that he actually was responsible, she'd given him the choice, maybe you'd say her principles should have prevented that.

Chakrabarti said that. Abbott laid it on thick about race.

Abbott''s kid I'd mid twenties now but it's a classic of its type so will always be a problem.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:29 pm

Tubby

Yes, the left were angry - as was I.

I am ideologically opposed to the idea of private education and it saddens me when Labour MPs use it

The thing though is that the charge is not hypocrisy in that instance - more betrayal of the principles

I do not think that the BBC, or the original poster, were coming from the 'left' though were they?

He is again using the same arguments that come out of CCHQ not those that come from the left

Why is this a poisonous problem for Corbyn? Why does everything about the Labour Party become poisonous, serious or existential when in fact it is fairly minor

You are the first to criticise the left when they do this so why do you join in when it suits you?

Blair wasn't brought down by the London Oratory carry-on was he?

This is one of the favourite attack lines of CCHQ and I am sure Hugo has the next one ready for when this one passes over

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:30 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ion-delays" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Patients suffer worst ever winter for A&E admission delays

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:31 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
gilsey wrote:How many years are people going to bang on about it? Which school Abbott sent her son to is ancient history, surely.
I think I read somewhere that he actually was responsible, she'd given him the choice, maybe you'd say her principles should have prevented that.
Chakrabarti said that. Abbott laid it on thick about race.

Abbott''s kid I'd mid twenties now but it's a classic of its type so will always be a problem.

Has anybody managed to destroy their reputation as fast as Shami Chakrabarti?

Really sad as it overshadows the good work she had done before.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:31 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... sal-credit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By abandoning ‘hardworking families’ to poverty, have the Tories finally gone too far?
Frances Ryan

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:33 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... le-parents" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Benefits sanctions do unfairly target single parents – whatever the Tories say
Sumi Rabindrakumar

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:37 pm

It's the wide range of people annoyed that makes the Abbott point work. Or at least it did make it work. As Gilsey said, it's now a long time ago but it was very memorable.

She's a Corbyn proxy, and there aren't many of those the public know. So she's a way of attacking him. Blair had a very similar situation with Lord Falconer but he was far less isolated among MPs.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:40 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:It's not so much CCHQ as the left more broadly who were very upset by Abbott. Slandering London schools as irredeemably racist and a conveyor belt for gangs, just as huge investment and effort was going into them. It was a huge insult to all the people doing it.

I think this is very poisonous, unlike Prescott having a Jag. It's a problem for Corbyn (who is principled on this) because she's one of his few strong supporters.

On this, I completely agree. It was cited as a major reason by Labour lefties for not supporting Abbott in 2010, btw.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:43 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
gilsey wrote:How many years are people going to bang on about it? Which school Abbott sent her son to is ancient history, surely.
I think I read somewhere that he actually was responsible, she'd given him the choice, maybe you'd say her principles should have prevented that.
Chakrabarti said that. Abbott laid it on thick about race.

Abbott''s kid I'd mid twenties now but it's a classic of its type so will always be a problem.

Has anybody managed to destroy their reputation as fast as Shami Chakrabarti?

Really sad as it overshadows the good work she had done before.

She probably considered herself a left wing liberal before, and though such people have many views that fit with Corbyn, there are differences too, like sending kids to public school and on EU policy.

I don't know why she didn't go with the Lib Dems.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:49 pm

Bizarrely, I went to private school after I passed the 11 plus. I'm much younger than my siblings and by then my Mum was working so there was money for fees, and we could live like we'd always done on my Dad''s earnings. The school my siblings went to was basically a 40 year sink secondary modern, and I think my parents had this in mind even though I'd have been going to the grammar.

If there'd been league tables, they'd have showed the grammar way ahead of my school, and saved us a lot of money.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:49 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:It's not so much CCHQ as the left more broadly who were very upset by Abbott. Slandering London schools as irredeemably racist and a conveyor belt for gangs, just as huge investment and effort was going into them. It was a huge insult to all the people doing it.

I think this is very poisonous, unlike Prescott having a Jag. It's a problem for Corbyn (who is principled on this) because she's one of his few strong supporters.
On this, I completely agree. It was cited as a major reason by Labour lefties for not supporting Abbott in 2010, btw.

I didn't know that.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:50 pm

Migration Watch lying about low skills of European immigrants.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 4:10 pm

Good there are people keeping a Migration Watch watch.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 4:12 pm

https://www.parkinsons.org.uk/news/11-a ... =hootsuite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

People with Parkinson's facing pointless PIP reassessments

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 4:35 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
gilsey wrote:How many years are people going to bang on about it? Which school Abbott sent her son to is ancient history, surely.
I think I read somewhere that he actually was responsible, she'd given him the choice, maybe you'd say her principles should have prevented that.
Chakrabarti said that. Abbott laid it on thick about race.

Abbott''s kid I'd mid twenties now but it's a classic of its type so will always be a problem.

Has anybody managed to destroy their reputation as fast as Shami Chakrabarti?

Really sad as it overshadows the good work she had done before.

This was quite a good article, on the subject -

"Shami Chakrabarti is not a hypocrite for sending her son to private school – but Corbyn might be one for appointing her"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... n-to-priv/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It turns out Chakrabarti’s 13-year-old son attends Dulwich College, which demands fees of £13,000 a year. But the Baroness, tipped to become Corbyn’s Shadow Attorney General any day now, has, as far as we know, never criticised others for the choices they have made when it comes to their kids’ futures.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 4:47 pm

gilsey wrote:How many years are people going to bang on about it? Which school Abbott sent her son to is ancient history, surely.
I think I read somewhere that he actually was responsible, she'd given him the choice, maybe you'd say her principles should have prevented that.

Yep, seeing as she's been re-elected 3 times since, we can probably presume her constituents have got over it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 4:49 pm

Diane Abbott is absolutely right about how far Labour's support could fall.

http://labourlist.org/2017/04/diane-abb ... ng-street/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See similar parties across Europe. For the moment FPTP is keeping Labour afloat. Once the Tories turn their fire, it could start dragging it down.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 4:52 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
gilsey wrote:How many years are people going to bang on about it? Which school Abbott sent her son to is ancient history, surely.
I think I read somewhere that he actually was responsible, she'd given him the choice, maybe you'd say her principles should have prevented that.
Yep, seeing as she's been re-elected 3 times since, we can probably presume her constituents have got over it.

In Hackney North they weigh the Labour vote rather than count it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 5:02 pm

Had to refill the birdbath three times today,think Cyril's taking the proverbial.It's him I've been watching.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 5:16 pm

Not that François Hollande is Titan but he'll be laughing his socks off at the idea he should take lessons from Abbott or Corbyn.

He did virtually no austerity and most of it by tax rises.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 6:30 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Diane Abbott is absolutely right about how far Labour's support could fall.

http://labourlist.org/2017/04/diane-abb ... ng-street/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See similar parties across Europe. For the moment FPTP is keeping Labour afloat. Once the Tories turn their fire, it could start dragging it down.

Yes, and most of those who have plummeted towards oblivion are those who have stuck rigidly to the 1990s "third way" playbook.

(see also, distinctly non-Corbynite and "moderate" Scottish Labour)

Social democratic parties that have made an effort to move with the times, notably in trying to turn the current "populist" wave in leftist directions, are holding up rather better.

I strongly suspect that isn't what you wanted to imply in the above comment, but its the truth.

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 6:48 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... amic-state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;