Friday 14th to Monday 17th April 2017

[Tubby Isaacs]

@ howsilly It is catching

On a ship and WiFi bit iffy (actually this is probably just a bad excuse for incompetence on my part)

That sounds like fun! Apart from the wifi.

[HindleA]

I think the personal interest thing is debateable,or at least misperceived.All attempts to cut cost saving arrangements leads both to increased costs for all and directly against either current own or potential self interest.

[HindleA]

I have visions of a spaceship on its way to check out a Saturn moon

[seeingclearly]

Misperception, agreed,astronomical costs already here. Good stuff from speye on the unclaimed billions, did he say 33, that never get mentioned when arcane almost occult treasury figures are assisted to mean saving when in facf indicate squander of the kind only possible by those for whom money is so easy to access that they barely understand why £30 a week might make the difference.

[pk1]

Deleted double post

We've all done it

On one of your points, I did notice that slug Neil Coyle slagging off the SC to the Sun the other day.

Even if what he said was true that would have been pretty disgraceful, but it appears he was basically telling fibs.

I know that McNicol is only interested in disciplining left wingers (or at least it seems that way) but surely that is deserving of censure?

Slug ? Really ? Weren't you proud when he defeated Simon Hughes ? I know I was !

No idea what article in the Sun you're referring to but Corbyn's reporting Coyle to the Chief Whip for having the temerity to email Corbyn asking questions on Labour's position re Brexit is utterly pathetic - it's as if he's hoping to encourage another challenge for the leadership. It's how he shores up support from his base.

The PLP must not react to such provocation.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Neil Coyle can feel his seat being lost back to the Lib Dems.

[AnatolyKasparov]

So that's OK, then. He isn't exactly helping with his behaviour there, is he?

As things stand, Hughes was considerably to the left of him anyway. As would any likely LibDem winner in 2020.

He's a slug. By all accounts a nasty piece of work and a deeply unpleasant human being.

Put simply, he is scum. Coyle, Dugher, Austin - these people are SCUM.

I am ashamed, disgusted and embarrassed top be in the same party as them. They disgrace the very name of Labour, and the sooner they are no longer that the better.

[pk1]

Stephen Bush on current polling:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/el ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

@ howsilly It is catching

On a ship and WiFi bit iffy (actually this is probably just a bad excuse for incompetence on my part)

That sounds like fun! Apart from the wifi.

Yes it is Tubby but a bit windy today.....and choppy!

Wife is a bit icky

[AnatolyKasparov]

F**k it, I'm cancelling my party membership this week. The sheer shame of being in the same party as a c*** like Coyle is too much to bear.

I'm taking a break from here for a bit, too. Yes, Corbyn is a bad leader - but how seemingly sensible people can't see THE ENEMY WITHIN is utterly incomprehensible.

Hand it back to the Dugher/Austin/Coyle tendency, and Labour would be destroyed. I mean it, UTTERLY DESTROYED.

There is NO constituency out there for their horrible politics.

But, it seems, they have won.

If so, let's leave the husk of "Labour" to them. Time to start something new and better.

[pk1]

Well, that escalated quickly.

[howsillyofme1]

@ howsilly It is catching

On a ship and WiFi bit iffy (actually this is probably just a bad excuse for incompetence on my part)

That sounds like fun! Apart from the wifi.

Yes it is Tubby but a bit windy today.....and choppy!

Wife is a bit icky

[AnatolyKasparov]

I'm tired.

Not in a physical sense (not today, anyway) but I just can't take any more of the disingenuous s**** out there.

It is best that I draw back from things (hopefully only temporarily) for the sake of my own sanity.

[PorFavor]

@howsillyofme1

Wife is a bit icky

People have been cast overboard for less.

[StephenDolan]

Take time to refresh AK, look forward to your return both to the party and these pages.

[pk1]

Nobody is interested in your leading questions about polls, SH.

As with the recent ComRes, YouGov apparently also show that Labour's recent policy announcements are popular.

So how to explain the apparent contradiction between that and the VI figures? I have my ideas, but they may not be the same as yours......

This poll tells us that people like certain Labour policies, but doesn't tell us how important these particular policy areas are to people. The most obvious explanation of the apparent contradiction is that these are not priorities for voters and in areas which are priorities for people - immigration control or remaining/re-joining the EU perhaps - they don't agree with Labour. Certainly being both pro-immigration and pro-embracing Brexit does seem likely to narrow potential support. No doubt the assumption is that once we've left the EU, such EU focused issues will no longer be priorities but there are dangers of trying to bypass the Brexit dilemma and remain on the fence. It's possible voters will be drawn to distinctive sides of the Brexit divide for some time to come, with Labour continuing to lose support through being neither one thing or another. And once people lose the Labour voting habit, there are no guarantees it will come back.

In today's Yougov poll, Brexit, Health & Immigration were the issues felt to be the ones most affecting GB at present:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... ackers.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

So that's OK, then. He isn't exactly helping with his behaviour there, is he?

As things stand, Hughes was considerably to the left of him anyway. As would any likely LibDem winner in 2020.

He's a slug. By all accounts a nasty piece of work and a deeply unpleasant human being.

Put simply, he is scum. Coyle, Dugher, Austin - these people are SCUM.

I am ashamed, disgusted and embarrassed top be in the same party as them. They disgrace the very name of Labour, and the sooner they are no longer that the better.

If people don't feel their seats are at risk, they won't attack the leadership so much.

Nobody cares about Dugher, Coyle or Austin, nor will they.

[AnatolyKasparov]

The media seem to care about them a great deal, unfortunately.

On reflection I'm leaving my party membership until it is due again in the summer, though I am *not* renewing if things stay as they are.

But I'm definitely taking a break from most social media for a bit. Will still post my by-election review later this week though

[Tubby Isaacs]

The media seem to care about them a great deal, unfortunately.

On reflection I'm leaving my party membership until it is due again in the summer, though I am *not* renewing if things stay as they are.

But I'm definitely taking a break from most social media for a bit. Will still post my by-election review later this week though

I look forward to it!

[Tubby Isaacs]

Can somebody confirm?

The policies on private school fees and preferential award of contracts to firms with collective bargaining- are these only allowed because we'll be leaving the Single Market?

If so, then they need cancelling sharpish. The money and jobs at stake in the Single Market are way more important.

[PorFavor]

Good morfternoon.

[seeingclearly]

It shocks me that housing and family life and childcare are placed where they are on that list, and actually how skewed our national dialogue must have become that people are not identifying with their own reasonable priorities but with ideological,ones. Many of the most pro Brexit areas for instance are the least affected by immigration, but also very traditionally insular and conservative in views. The placement of health on the other hand is heartening after years of general lack of awareness, it means the destruction is now made visible. But that prioritising shows that there has been huge and successful distraction from daily realities. I often like to use real examples of what I encounter, these are often viewed as being anecdotal only, but seem to me the only way I can honestly verify the actuality of policy in action. My example today is of someone who looks after me, on mimimum wage, hours at the mercy of a private company, and who is classed as 'full time self employed'. This used to be someone doing 24 hours a week, today it is sixteen, any benefits are means tested and deductions run at, iirc, 68p in every £. The person concerned though classed as working is on universal credit and though 32 years old with a five year old, and formerly married, has now decided to return to parental home where mum (gran) provides free childcare, and freedom from the housing chaos about to ensue. Said worker is also having to buy and pay petrol costs for job impossible to do without a vehicle. In the last year I have seen a number of variations on this, for some the concern is pensions, for others the concern is education and how to fit in the needs of children with the needs of work. All without exception under great personal pressure to survive economically, yet they have been convinced Brexit and immigration should be their main concern. This is so fucked up that I sometimes feel like exploding. But when the voices of reason say lets turn our focus back to the realities they are met with a babel of irrelevant ideology. So instead we divide and argue ever more, instead of showing and being encouraged to show sime kind of solidarity with each other. It is mindboggling how deeply this seems to have set in. Regardless of what individuals say and feel, they are all trying to juggle with this to see how it can be manipulated away by supporting whatever next bit of nonsense seems the most attractive. Or justifiable, or arguable. Any values that once existed so flexible as to be unrealistic. The gains of a couple of centuries of progressive now dust and anyway rewritten to the personal agendas of those bearing the signs of an inability to shape perception to reality. And deaf to all solutions, sommuch so that even when they 'win' the causes they still fundamentally think they still have a grievance.

Not surprised people are tired, trying to make sense of it all for years has been dispiriting and mentally exhausting.

For me, it has also been debilitating. We have a wonderful valuable health system that achieves miracles lying in tatters, outside of it nothing is joined up any more, and the holes are even more visible, but people seem paralysed this time in a way they were not thirty years ago.

And so many different groups of people who distrust, mistrust, and some times are actively hostile to each other.

If there are ideas on how to unravel this, I would like to hear them. Currently I have only one, and that is to vote Labour, to hell with its percieved and real divisions, anything is better than what we currently are living with.

[SpinningHugo]

F**k it, I'm cancelling my party membership this week. The sheer shame of being in the same party as a c*** like Coyle is too much to bear.

I'm taking a break from here for a bit, too. Yes, Corbyn is a bad leader - but how seemingly sensible people can't see THE ENEMY WITHIN is utterly incomprehensible.

Hand it back to the Dugher/Austin/Coyle tendency, and Labour would be destroyed. I mean it, UTTERLY DESTROYED.

There is NO constituency out there for their horrible politics.

But, it seems, they have won.

If so, let's leave the husk of "Labour" to them. Time to start something new and better.

Dugher/Austin/Coyle

The number of people who know who any of these people are is tiny. They are of no significance at all.

They aren't in charge of Labour. Corbyn. McDonnell, and Milne are.

[SpinningHugo]

Can somebody confirm?

The policies on private school fees and preferential award of contracts to firms with collective bargaining- are these only allowed because we'll be leaving the Single Market?

If so, then they need cancelling sharpish. The money and jobs at stake in the Single Market are way more important.

Yes.

We triggered art 50. Labour 3 line whipped it. We're leaving the single market.

[Tubby Isaacs]

And Corbyn's really gone for housing as one of his issues, and council housing at that. Huge amounts of money to be borrowed for it, which will lose Labour the election by itself.

[SpinningHugo]

And Corbyn's really gone for housing as one of his issues, and council housing at that. Huge amounts of money to be borrowed for it, which will lose Labour the election by itself.

Housing should be Labour's centrepiece issue. Corbyn isn't able to put forward the kind of policies that would work, but Miliband could have done and was too cautious.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Can somebody confirm?

The policies on private school fees and preferential award of contracts to firms with collective bargaining- are these only allowed because we'll be leaving the Single Market?

If so, then they need cancelling sharpish. The money and jobs at stake in the Single Market are way more important.

Yes.

We triggered art 50. Labour 3 line whipped it. We're leaving the single market.

What about those policies? Are they "Lexit" ones?

[Tubby Isaacs]

And Corbyn's really gone for housing as one of his issues, and council housing at that. Huge amounts of money to be borrowed for it, which will lose Labour the election by itself.

Housing should be Labour's centrepiece issue. Corbyn isn't able to put forward the kind of policies that would work, but Miliband could have done and was too cautious.

I think it's tough for anybody to build enough where they're wanted.

[howsillyofme1]

The current situation is that we are leaving the EU in 2019

THIS IS BECAUSE IT IS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WANT!

The Government and the DUP and Labour Brexit supporters outnumber the people who want to vote Remain

You cannot ignore this reality....the Tory Remain supporters were never going to oppose A50

There are those of you who think Labour should have opposed A50 but you have no monopoly on being right....just as we who supported the Labour position don't

The reality is though that A50 would still have been invoked and we would be in the same position we are now

The only thing that could prevent exit was a GE or a clear change in public opinion....neither have been forthcoming

In that case it is entirely proper that Labour are looking at a post EU UK and the policies they will have.

The alternative is that Labour launch policies that pretend Brexit won't happen

It seems Labour cannot win here, not helped by so-called supporters

The have to pretend Brexit won't happen when launching policies but then have to have credible policies in place for 2020

They have to reach out but only if the ignore a referendum result

They have to be for immigration controls but also for the single market....

They gave to walk a tightrope but whatever they do there is someone running to the press to argue the opposite!

This is all the fault of the Tories but the blame and bile is thrown at the opposition!

Mainly from 'supporters'

Brexit is the fault of Cameron and May, but I forget they were/are so much better Prime Ministers than either Miliband or Corbyn would be!

All this disaster that is Brexit but people still support the party that caused it

And before Hugo says that Labour are also a Brexit party because of A50 is an example of his continued undermining of a party he has never really supported....they are not but they have to deal with te realpolitik and not some desired alternative future

[pk1]

Health and housing are the only two policy areas where Labour were regarded as being most able to deal with, albeit very marginally, in that yougov poll.

NHS Lab 30 Cons 23
Housing L 24 / C 22
Asylum and immigration L 13 / C 29
Law and order L 13 / C 37
Education and schools L 23 / C 26
Taxation L 19 / C 30
Unemployment L 22 / C 30
The economy in general L 14 / C 38
Britain's exit from the EU L 9 / C 34



Edit to apply correct numbers to Housing policy

[Eric_WLothian]

Can somebody confirm?

The policies on private school fees and preferential award of contracts to firms with collective bargaining- are these only allowed because we'll be leaving the Single Market?

If so, then they need cancelling sharpish. The money and jobs at stake in the Single Market are way more important.

Don't know about school fees but imo there's nothing to prevent putting collective bargaining into a procurement exercise.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Health and housing are the only two policy areas where Labour were regarded as being most able to deal with, albeit very marginally, in that yougov poll.

NHS Lab 30 Cons 23
Housing L 22 / C 24
Asylum and immigration L 13 / C 29
Law and order L 13 / C 37
Education and schools L 23 / C 26
Taxation L 19 / C 30
Unemployment L 22 / C 30
The economy in general L 14 / C 38
Britain's exit from the EU L 9 / C 34

Their losing Housing.

[seeingclearly]

Health and housing are the only two policy areas where Labour were regarded as being most able to deal with, albeit very marginally, in that yougov poll.

NHS Lab 30 Cons 23
Housing L 22 / C 24
Asylum and immigration L 13 / C 29
Law and order L 13 / C 37
Education and schools L 23 / C 26
Taxation L 19 / C 30
Unemployment L 22 / C 30
The economy in general L 14 / C 38
Britain's exit from the EU L 9 / C 34

Evidence that the agenda the tories ply if working very effectively? I hate the trite exhortation about kool aid and sheeple, but there is more than a bit of truth with regard to mass manipulation. They are auccessful at it. Both health and housing have been massively manipulated to give the impression that Labour left a chaotic mess, when in fact the opposite is true.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Corbyn supporters sending this less than professional-looking meme about.



Shouldn't be too hard to find out what this refers to. If there are formal investigations going on, you don't need to stick in "under scrutiny". It gives the impression of the kitchen sink being chucked.

And it would help if they could get his name right at the end.

[Tubby Isaacs]

This is the body shaming. Aimed at Burgon.

[SpinningHugo]

All this disaster that is Brexit but people still support the party that caused it

And before Hugo says that Labour are also a Brexit party because of A50 is an example of his continued undermining of a party he has never really supported....they are not but they have to deal with te realpolitik and not some desired alternative future

Let me give you an analogy that might help you.

If the UK had not supported the Iraq War, would it still have happened? Would the murder and chaos still have eventuated?

Yes.

Does that mean the UK and its governing party at the time (the one I supported) has no responsibility for the IRaq War, as it would have happened anyway?

No.

Because the UK contributed. Everyone who contributes is responsible.

Would art 50 have been triggered regardless of T May's vote? Yes. J Reese-Mogg's? Yes. Does that mean they have no responsibility?

the Labour party imposed a 3 line whip on art 50 without conditions. Come honourable MPs (eg the consistent Mary Creagh) defied that whip and escape blame. Almost all the rest, and all the leadership, voted for Hard Brexit.

Vote for a party that didn't support that.

I'm voting Green.

[RogerOThornhill]

Can somebody confirm?

The policies on private school fees and preferential award of contracts to firms with collective bargaining- are these only allowed because we'll be leaving the Single Market?

If so, then they need cancelling sharpish. The money and jobs at stake in the Single Market are way more important.

Don't know about school fees but imo there's nothing to prevent putting collective bargaining into a procurement exercise.

Education is currently exempt and once a service/product has been set at zero it can't be changed. Once out of the EU then we can do what we want.

[SpinningHugo]

Can somebody confirm?

The policies on private school fees and preferential award of contracts to firms with collective bargaining- are these only allowed because we'll be leaving the Single Market?

If so, then they need cancelling sharpish. The money and jobs at stake in the Single Market are way more important.

Yes.

We triggered art 50. Labour 3 line whipped it. We're leaving the single market.

What about those policies? Are they "Lexit" ones?

yes. Pure Lexit. Probably inconsistent with WTO as well. If Labour were near power they'd have to be scrutinised and thought about.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Taking the piss out of a member of the Shadow Cabinet who is protected by the leader is "bullying", apparently.

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/01/austin ... k-mcnicol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[refitman]

Taking the piss out of a member of the Shadow Cabinet who is protected by the leader is "bullying", apparently.

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/01/austin ... k-mcnicol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing wrong with public comments about his weight? And no comment about the massive pile-on regarding a pretty good comment about the perceived separation between MPs and the general public?

[HindleA]

May I be of assistance.
There is no General Election.
It is a Tory Government.
There are no Green candidates.
Labour is guilty of implementation of living wage,retention of own care team,repairing damage of Tory maladministration,proposing free travel for carers.
You present this as immoral and/or irrelevant.
The non May admiring Harry Enfield impersonators,hopefully disagree.

[SpinningHugo]

Taking the piss out of a member of the Shadow Cabinet who is protected by the leader is "bullying", apparently.

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/01/austin ... k-mcnicol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing wrong with public comments about his weight? And no comment about the massive pile-on regarding a pretty good comment about the perceived separation between MPs and the general public?

It wasn't "pretty good". It was sanctimonious rubbish that pissed off every other MP who behaves in the same way (ie almost all of them),

Burgon is an incompetent clown who is unbelievably shadow Lord Chancellor (and yes, it is also unbelievable who the actual Lord Chancellor is).

[HindleA]

Put it this way,imagine the other way around.

Four year old stuff,granted.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Taking the piss out of a member of the Shadow Cabinet who is protected by the leader is "bullying", apparently.

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/01/austin ... k-mcnicol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing wrong with public comments about his weight? And no comment about the massive pile-on regarding a pretty good comment about the perceived separation between MPs and the general public?

It came across as "I go to Tesco, me", not least because of the schoolboy level prose.

Comments about weight aren't great, but they're less bad when they're coming from below. Burgon is a man in the Shadow Cabinet. There can't be many people who've had an easier ride to get to where they are.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Can somebody confirm?

The policies on private school fees and preferential award of contracts to firms with collective bargaining- are these only allowed because we'll be leaving the Single Market?

If so, then they need cancelling sharpish. The money and jobs at stake in the Single Market are way more important.

Don't know about school fees but imo there's nothing to prevent putting collective bargaining into a procurement exercise.

Education is currently exempt and once a service/product has been set at zero it can't be changed. Once out of the EU then we can do what we want.

Cheers. In which case it needs to be dropped because it's inconsistent with the trading relationship we need.

[refitman]

Taking the piss out of a member of the Shadow Cabinet who is protected by the leader is "bullying", apparently.

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/01/austin ... k-mcnicol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing wrong with public comments about his weight? And no comment about the massive pile-on regarding a pretty good comment about the perceived separation between MPs and the general public?

It wasn't "pretty good". It was sanctimonious rubbish that pissed off every other MP who behaves in the same way (ie almost all of them),

Burgon is an incompetent clown who is unbelievably shadow Lord Chancellor (and yes, it is also unbelievable who the actual Lord Chancellor is).

So, there is no perceived "us and them" between the public and MPs? Pretty sure that the tweet would have been aimed at the public and his constituents, not his 'colleagues'. And obviously any case, attacks on a public forum aren't very professional.

But you don't think he's very good, so fair game then.

[refitman]

Taking the piss out of a member of the Shadow Cabinet who is protected by the leader is "bullying", apparently.

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/01/austin ... k-mcnicol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing wrong with public comments about his weight? And no comment about the massive pile-on regarding a pretty good comment about the perceived separation between MPs and the general public?

It came across as "I go to Tesco, me", not least because of the schoolboy level prose.

Comments about weight aren't great, but they're less bad when they're coming from below. Burgon is a man in the Shadow Cabinet. There can't be many people who've had an easier ride to get to where they are.

Comments about weight are well out of order and in almost any other business, those actions would result in disciplinary action, if only for bringing a business into disrepute (the comments being made as representatives of Labour).

[refitman]

I also didn't realise you need to be Shakespeare or Hemingway, to write a 7 line note about meeting a constituent.

[Tubby Isaacs]

You know that fool from the NUS who was apparently trying to get Westminster University bombed by Jihadis?

She seems to be dating Richard Burgon...

[HindleA]

You'll never see me in Tesco,barring emergency late night pharmacy need.Of course,you wouldn't even know it was me in any case,though if you see a bloke at the pharmacy counter at 21.54 in a pink dressing gown ,say hello ,just in case.