Tuesday, 18th April 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:18 pm

TE previous day was me old mam's literal birthday,on tobacco run for me tomorrow,as it happens,I like to keep her active.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:20 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:One unequivocally good and cheering thought.

Ukips will not win a seat, and will fall well below 10%.

But the bastards have colonised the Tory Party.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:24 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: How else could he rationalise his behaviour?
I think he reckons he could turn it around in more time.

The pre-existing Labour left, the ones I know anyway, have put themselves out to defend Labour achievements from office. The problem is a whole new crowd among the new members who see it in poisonous terms. I remember seeing that one Spartist twat from my hometown was now in Labour. I knew we were in trouble then.
Welcome to my CLP.

Bloke on another board said it's textbook "washed up old Trot plays pied piper to the kids" in his CLP. Hilariously, the self-appointed leftist icon ran for election on a laughable "go after the drug dealing scum" style platform. He's a Lexiter too. Utter nuisance.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:26 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:One unequivocally good and cheering thought.

Ukips will not win a seat, and will fall well below 10%.

Farage could come back. If UKIP are in the clear for electoral spending, then he'll go for the Tories cheating him out of a seat. He'll get coverage too, because he always does.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:27 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:

But

1. There are some good political dramas. I'd recommend All the King's Men (1949) and Advise and Consent (1962). I also liked the original House of Cards. West Wing always struck me as boring liberal fantasy.

2. You have to get into the Corbyn mindset. For that wing of opinion, Blairite victory was just Tory government by other means. So the only way of achieving real social change is to take control of Labour, wait for an economic crisis (that capitalist economies always produce) and then take power. It is a waiting game. if you've waited 40 years, you'll wait longer still.

Here and now electoral results don't really count. It is all about the longterm, and taking control of the Labour movement. McDonnell is not an idiot. Only then can you see that it isn't, from that perspective, egotistical immorality.

I wonder if Corbyn can hold on once this election is lost? Politics is really interesting recently, if nothing else.
My idea of a good political drama is Blakes 7. The rest - meh.

I don't need to get into the Corbyn mindset, I understand it, I just utterly reject it. Its key fallacy is something will turn up to make the hard left electable, never looked like it for a century, and that the Lib Dems wouldn't take over as the opposition (they would).

Tony Blair has achieved more for the NHS, the disabled and the poor of this country than Corbyn ever has or ever will.

National Minimum Wage, Utilities Windfall Tax, huge NHS investment, working tax credits, union recognition, improved rights at work, HRA, abolition of Clause 28, end of hunting with dogs, aggressive climate change targets. The list is much longer.

Corbyn seeing that as a continuation of a Tory government is part of his problem. I think he will try and hang on, not sure what happens next, but that isn't a universal view here.

TE, for 90% of the time, and that has been a few years now, I have been mostly in agreement with you. On this I beg to differ. On the things you mention as Blair achievements I think many people from across the party supported these and Labour voters too. I do not see the current leadership ripping into any of them and tearing them up. I do not see any evidence that Corbyn thinks any of those things are a continuation of a Tory government. In fact he is looking for consensus and promoting a reasonable centre left set of policies with a view to undoing some of the damage done in the last seven years. I am not a corbynista, whatever that is, but have been utterly dismayed by the path politics in this country has taken. To change leadership now is impractical, so this is the reality for now, we can fight against the tories or we can destroy our own. I do think he will hang on for now however because no effective alternative has emerged. Personally I would like to see Corbyn and Miliband come together as a solution, they both have a proper Labour lineage to draw on and values in common. Was amazed at the good reception Ed got recently from unlikely quarters, and seen as personable, likeable and everything the media caricatures never focused on. It isn't anymore about what Labour was under Blair, it is a different world, that is not going to come back, not least because of Blair himself. It is about having a party that stands for something. Like some of the things you list, plus the rights of those who never won in lifes lottery, who the right of the party do not represent, think Harman, Reeves, and many others. It took me a long while to see the betrayal in their failures, I did not want to see it. But it is there, they have no backbone to fight for all peoples rights, and I tired of the phrase 'working people'. Under Thatcher many of my generation never even got started in life till in their thirties or forties, many people I know never got on the property ladder, had to wait years for anything good to materialise, and Labour helped with that. But fizzled out. So many got left behind, because some could not see, and some only saw what they wanted. And frankly, greed took over. So the job we hoped for never really got done, and under the remaining blairites never will. They are just too comfortable, or too young to remember what the real aims once were. If we don't support the kind of labour that might restore some of the ground we lost, and is always just fighting to stay where the damage began, far to the right of where we need to be, what is it all about. I live daily with the stories of people losing out, on precious life, on health, on sanity, on homes, and means to live, on discrimination and hatred I have never before seen the like of in this country, on medical need, on employment rights. And the people on the right of the party I supported all my life do nothing, and diligently ape the words of the people who inflict this. It is insupportable. And when they oppose so vocally people who do want to restore some sanity then I have to stand with those who stand for the values I believe in. And ignore the babel around me, and just focus on opposing a known and well understood enemy. I wish every right thinking person would too. It is not enough for me to have people who pay lip service to human rights. I want them to protect snd defend them. Even if it is unpopular, as undoubtedly it is right now.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:37 pm

Above, I agree that supporting cuts against the most vulnerable was stupidity of the highest order and indeed unacceptable.

There is a lot to be gained from changing the leader, but the only person who can now do that is the leader, and it won't happen. Which is a shame as May might panic if she did find herself up against Ed Miliband.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:39 pm

Reeves isn't the best, but she was wilfully misreprented by lots of people on that "tougher than the Tories" stuff. She was talking about a very precise thing- young people turning down jobs, and they'd be offered a compulsory one paid for by a tax on banks.

I haven't got any sense from the current leadership that they have any idea how to pay for the benefits they're defending. I respect them for defending them though, but you can't expect much credit from the electorate in the current climate if you're basically saying "stick it on the national debt". It's current spending. We need to be covering that, and borrowing for investment.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:40 pm

Bloody hell

Corbyn IRA coming up again......i do not doubt he would condemn IRA terrorist acts but also support a united Ireland and criticise the actions of the British Government. Seems also a bit 1980s see in Sinn Fein are in Government

CND.....well criticise someone at the moment when nuclear cock waving seems to be in vogue. Again very 1980s

How about May and her over racism in the lat few years as Home Secretary?

Tubby, I know you hate Corbyn but you just seem to be scraping around for how the Tories may attack him

The feral Tory wankers have been instrumental in destroying the fabric of UK society....how about a bit of focus on that rather than looking back 35 years at what Corbyn said or did....

How about also looking at what May and her pals said back in the 80s when the Tories were destroying public services....I went to school then and I have hated them ever since

I really question the motivation of some people hete

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:42 pm

Has to be said, 'Let's make June the end of May' is a killer slogan for twitter

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:42 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:53 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Reeves isn't the best, but she was wilfully misreprented by lots of people on that "tougher than the Tories" stuff. She was talking about a very precise thing- young people turning down jobs, and they'd be offered a compulsory one paid for by a tax on banks.

I haven't got any sense from the current leadership that they have any idea how to pay for the benefits they're defending. I respect them for defending them though, but you can't expect much credit from the electorate in the current climate if you're basically saying "stick it on the national debt". It's current spending. We need to be covering that, and borrowing for investment.

Reeves has a majority of over 10,000, so she is probably safe.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:53 pm

This is why I get very impatient with eg the pensions triple lock commitment. Where's the money for that coming from? I know the Tories do this too, but lots of people think they'll get it off working age benefits, so they get away with it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:54 pm

@Tubby

Thanks as ever for all your posts. Can I beg you not to use the "Lexiter" moniker and similar (we discussed Cybernats recently)?

Folk are entitled to their opinions, unless they are Tories

and these labels can be upsetting.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:56 pm

Another disaster was joining in with the backlash against Hammond's self-employed NI rises. That would have paid for some benefits. McDonnell had to make an effort to mislead by chucking it in with Universal Credit changes. Changes that could have been credibly opposed with that NI money.

All parties do this sort of stuff, but if everybody thinks you're going to run up too much debt, you have to do something about it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:57 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Tubby

Thanks as ever for all your posts. Can I beg you not to use the "Lexiter" moniker and similar (we discussed Cybernats recently)?

Folk are entitled to their opinions, unless they are Tories and these labels can be upsetting.

You mean like troll, liar and so on?

Yes, I can see that we need to avoid anything that may be triggering for the more sensitive person who thinks of themselves as leftwing but is indifferent to the EU.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:58 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Bloody hell

Corbyn IRA coming up again......i do not doubt he would condemn IRA terrorist acts but also support a united Ireland and criticise the actions of the British Government. Seems also a bit 1980s see in Sinn Fein are in Government

CND.....well criticise someone at the moment when nuclear cock waving seems to be in vogue. Again very 1980s

How about May and her over racism in the lat few years as Home Secretary?

Tubby, I know you hate Corbyn but you just seem to be scraping around for how the Tories may attack him

The feral Tory wankers have been instrumental in destroying the fabric of UK society....how about a bit of focus on that rather than looking back 35 years at what Corbyn said or did....

How about also looking at what May and her pals said back in the 80s when the Tories were destroying public services....I went to school then and I have hated them ever since

I really question the motivation of some people hete

Just pointing out the obvious attack lines the Tory press will use. We have 8 weeks of this stuff from them and it will be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Q1. Jeremy Corbyn - What is Labour's position on the UKs independent nuclear deterrent.

Answer: Ermmm.

That is two weeks of media lead story for them right there.

Then of course they will dig out all his pro IRA and anti NATO stuff and represent that as Labour policy. Plus his Falklands stuff, and expect endless questions on will he authorise shoot to kill policies against increasingly ridiculous invented terrorist threats. I imagine McDonnell will face lots of similar questions.

For whatever reason normal voters do not necessarily see the Tory Party as evil, or even something to be voted against right now.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:59 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Tubby

Thanks as ever for all your posts. Can I beg you not to use the "Lexiter" moniker and similar (we discussed Cybernats recently)?

Folk are entitled to their opinions, unless they are Tories and these labels can be upsetting.

The bloke strongly supported leave, and dished it out ignorantly to people like the bloke I know who actually did an MA on the EU. I didn't think the word was problematic for that.

I think before when you objected that I was using it to criticize people who supported Remain but seemed luke warm, didn't I? I agree, that's unfair.

But I'll avoid it more generally too.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:00 pm

Tell you what

Let us just say Labour are a fucking disaster and all vote Tory in June because you always seem to have an excuse for them

Those Tories are all so good at everything aren't they

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:02 pm

@Tubby

Cancel/stop continued flushing down toilet legal costs associated with continuance after pronounced illegaliies,again in a couple of weeks re.bedroom tax,there's few bob easilly.
As said previously,and as the Government is finding,you cannot make savings in attempts to cut cost saving arrangements,so you get ridiculous taxi fares in lieu of a sensible weekly investment.
Until it seen as investment-cost saving and enough people recognise this and the fact that billions has been wasted in pursuance far better alternatively employed rather than knee jerking to "benefits",to be honest,fuck knows.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:04 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Bloody hell

Corbyn IRA coming up again......i do not doubt he would condemn IRA terrorist acts but also support a united Ireland and criticise the actions of the British Government. Seems also a bit 1980s see in Sinn Fein are in Government

CND.....well criticise someone at the moment when nuclear cock waving seems to be in vogue. Again very 1980s

How about May and her over racism in the lat few years as Home Secretary?

Tubby, I know you hate Corbyn but you just seem to be scraping around for how the Tories may attack him

The feral Tory wankers have been instrumental in destroying the fabric of UK society....how about a bit of focus on that rather than looking back 35 years at what Corbyn said or did....

How about also looking at what May and her pals said back in the 80s when the Tories were destroying public services....I went to school then and I have hated them ever since

I really question the motivation of some people hete

He got asked to condemn IRA terrorism recently. He replied with "I condemn all terrorism". That's bringing problems on your own head doing that.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:05 pm

If Corbyn was lukewarm what was May (although I challenge that he was lukewarm)?

How about challenging her for once instead of coming on a (so-called) left wing board and demotivating everyone with your continual negativity

We all know the problems ahead but don't need it ramming down our throats continually!

Post by **adam** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:08 pm

I haven't changed how I feel about all of this since straight after the 2015 GE - I think we're screwed and there's nothing we can realistically do about that. Obviously it's got significantly worse since then. All you can do is point to people behaving like shits and tell them that's what they're doing.

We should see an electorate facing up to previously unheard of levels of electoral corruption by the tories as the news breaks inn the run up to this poll but I don't believe it will make any difference. People don't care - they know the tories are shits and they don't care. A lot of them are shits too.

Labour have rolled over completely about the EU since the referendum and have never been further from power or influence. On the extreme off chance that we end up with a hung parliament I imagine Faron will do a deal to fight for the tory's agenda in confidence and supply in return for some kind of final vote on the final leave package. And my local Green candidate supports the universal basic income because it would mean people could take time out to find themselves, creatively and with natural healing. I might vote. I don't think it makes any difference at all in this constituency anyway.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:09 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Tubby

Thanks as ever for all your posts. Can I beg you not to use the "Lexiter" moniker and similar (we discussed Cybernats recently)?

Folk are entitled to their opinions, unless they are Tories and these labels can be upsetting.
The bloke strongly supported leave, and dished it out ignorantly to people like the bloke I know who actually did an MA on the EU. I didn't think the word was problematic for that.

I think before when you objected that I was using it to criticize people who supported Remain but seemed luke warm, didn't I? I agree, that's unfair.

But I'll avoid it more generally too.

He's a Lexiter too. Utter nuisance.

Implication - if you support Labour and Brexit you are an utter nuisance.

I don't, but I know very decent folk who do and I would hope they could feel welcome here. That's the thing with these labels Tubby. If you critique this guy for his beliefs that's fine. Why drag other people in by using the tag?

Thanks for the reply btw

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:10 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Bloody hell

Corbyn IRA coming up again......i do not doubt he would condemn IRA terrorist acts but also support a united Ireland and criticise the actions of the British Government. Seems also a bit 1980s see in Sinn Fein are in Government

CND.....well criticise someone at the moment when nuclear cock waving seems to be in vogue. Again very 1980s

How about May and her over racism in the lat few years as Home Secretary?

Tubby, I know you hate Corbyn but you just seem to be scraping around for how the Tories may attack him

The feral Tory wankers have been instrumental in destroying the fabric of UK society....how about a bit of focus on that rather than looking back 35 years at what Corbyn said or did....

How about also looking at what May and her pals said back in the 80s when the Tories were destroying public services....I went to school then and I have hated them ever since

I really question the motivation of some people hete
He got asked to condemn IRA terrorism recently. He replied with "I condemn all terrorism". That's bringing problems on your own head doing that.

Ermmm...he criticised all terrorism

Doesn't that include the IRA?

Only if you are looking to criticise...

How were the Tories and Osama in the 80s?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:14 pm

The "shoot to kill" thing was mostly poor communication, and he clarified. I don't think he ever thought that the police shouldn't kill people running around with machine guns.

But I don't think politicians "authorise" anything, do they? The law's there and the police make a decision on the spot, don't they? I was surprised he didn't see it like that, given that he must have come across police shootings in London.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:16 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Tubby

Thanks as ever for all your posts. Can I beg you not to use the "Lexiter" moniker and similar (we discussed Cybernats recently)?

Folk are entitled to their opinions, unless they are Tories and these labels can be upsetting.
The bloke strongly supported leave, and dished it out ignorantly to people like the bloke I know who actually did an MA on the EU. I didn't think the word was problematic for that.

I think before when you objected that I was using it to criticize people who supported Remain but seemed luke warm, didn't I? I agree, that's unfair.

But I'll avoid it more generally too.

He's a Lexiter too. Utter nuisance.
Implication - if you support Labour and Brexit you are an utter nuisance.

I don't, but I know very decent folk who do and I would hope they could feel welcome here. That's the thing with these labels Tubby. If you critique this guy for his beliefs that's fine. Why drag other people in by using the tag?

Thanks for the reply btw

I meant more generally he was a nuisance. He made a tit of himself in the election he ran for, and alienated anybody with opinions on law and order more subtle than Rudi Guliani.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:16 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Tubby

Thanks as ever for all your posts. Can I beg you not to use the "Lexiter" moniker and similar (we discussed Cybernats recently)?

Folk are entitled to their opinions, unless they are Tories and these labels can be upsetting.

You mean like troll, liar and so on?

Yes, I can see that we need to avoid anything that may be triggering for the more sensitive person who thinks of themselves as leftwing but is indifferent to the EU.

This Hugo is beyond the pale for me. I've defended your right to post here and you direct this kind of shit at me.

You HAVE been concern trolling and you know it.

Now get a grip.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:16 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
seeingclearly wrote: For once just have a little respect. Real peoples lives are being destroyed here while you play your games. Today Corbyn was talking to unpaid carers while the BBC reported him as addressing the faithful. This is the kind of devious undermining of support for people that passes for news these days. So utterly dysfunctional is our everloving State these days that there are many such people, in a nation which actually allocates revenue, who dare not claim, because of potential damage to life and minds, it runs into billions. But the people who have policies to try and mitigate this are lied about, the public deceived, and disinformation and utter tripe abounds.
You don't need to lie about Corbyn to trounce him in a General Election.

Ask him if he condemns IRA terrorism. See how well his response goes down. Newspapers could be totally honest about it. Candidates then get asked about it and have to disagree with the leader. Newspapers report that truthfully. Public takes very dim view.

In a reasonable world with objective jounalists, and truthful too all would be held to equal account, and tories would come off very much worse. The public takes a dim view because of spin, you know that, and most people reading here know it. Regardless of who or what you are in politics if you are in it for forty years you will have history. The tories have plenty but do not get challenged or individually lambasted for it. So much so that the hated Thatcher was given a state funeral ffs, and no word about the role of state terrorism. I recently saw tv footage that tried to deconstruct the legacy of much missed Mo Mowlam, and rewriting terrible times to the mono-dimensional script that those encouraged to take a 'very dim view' might accept. Shit stirring in my opinion, for no good reason. Trying to resurrect old grievances for political gain. Having observed closely two unconnected but roughly very similar long running conflicts I can say with no uncertainty that when you are in them and acting and observing from the inside things are far from clear. And time and conflict resolution change a lot. This kind of cynical revival of old stuff is both dangerous and revisionist. The past is best left where it is for historians to sort out. I take a similar view on Blair, who many would have shot. But believe he did no different to any other british politician, but we don't treat them all the same do we? I don't see anyone calling for Camerons head, because of the total fuckup that is what remains of Libya. He, like Blair, was a big player. Corbyn not so much at all. He never was in power, and there were after all two sides in that terrible conflict and many losers, but here in England who was even talking to the other side? And today we have relative peace there, because some said we have to talk. And I know and understand the difficulties and historic mistakes in such processes. They are never pure or unfraught.

But there you go. Helping create a picture of someone untrust worthy and unelectable in what are now very different times. Providing the ammunition. On a forum about Labour. That is not supportive of the tories. Why would you do that?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:17 pm

Hi Paul

Wolves Leeds?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:18 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Bloody hell

Corbyn IRA coming up again......i do not doubt he would condemn IRA terrorist acts but also support a united Ireland and criticise the actions of the British Government. Seems also a bit 1980s see in Sinn Fein are in Government

CND.....well criticise someone at the moment when nuclear cock waving seems to be in vogue. Again very 1980s

How about May and her over racism in the lat few years as Home Secretary?

Tubby, I know you hate Corbyn but you just seem to be scraping around for how the Tories may attack him

The feral Tory wankers have been instrumental in destroying the fabric of UK society....how about a bit of focus on that rather than looking back 35 years at what Corbyn said or did....

How about also looking at what May and her pals said back in the 80s when the Tories were destroying public services....I went to school then and I have hated them ever since

I really question the motivation of some people hete
He got asked to condemn IRA terrorism recently. He replied with "I condemn all terrorism". That's bringing problems on your own head doing that.
Ermmm...he criticised all terrorism

Doesn't that include the IRA?

Only if you are looking to criticise...

How were the Tories and Osama in the 80s?

You don't think that looks evasive, the way he answers? There's literally no point in him answering like that in case he's worried about offending some old Republicans.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:20 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Hi Paul

Wolves Leeds?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:21 pm

Tubby

Tory shoot to kill

Tory support for Pinochet

Tory support for Osama

Tory support for Saudis Arabia

Tory support for Bahrain

Tory support for Contras

Tory support for Apartheid

Did May oppose this.....?

Did Cameron?

Would expect Tories to ignore it and focus on Corbyn....what is your excuse?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:23 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
seeingclearly wrote: For once just have a little respect. Real peoples lives are being destroyed here while you play your games. Today Corbyn was talking to unpaid carers while the BBC reported him as addressing the faithful. This is the kind of devious undermining of support for people that passes for news these days. So utterly dysfunctional is our everloving State these days that there are many such people, in a nation which actually allocates revenue, who dare not claim, because of potential damage to life and minds, it runs into billions. But the people who have policies to try and mitigate this are lied about, the public deceived, and disinformation and utter tripe abounds.
You don't need to lie about Corbyn to trounce him in a General Election.

Ask him if he condemns IRA terrorism. See how well his response goes down. Newspapers could be totally honest about it. Candidates then get asked about it and have to disagree with the leader. Newspapers report that truthfully. Public takes very dim view.
In a reasonable world with objective jounalists, and truthful too all would be held to equal account, and tories would come off very much worse. The public takes a dim view because of spin, you know that, and most people reading here know it. Regardless of who or what you are in politics if you are in it for forty years you will have history. The tories have plenty but do not get challenged or individually lambasted for it. So much so that the hated Thatcher was given a state funeral ffs, and no word about the role of state terrorism. I recently saw tv footage that tried to deconstruct the legacy of much missed Mo Mowlam, and rewriting terrible times to the mono-dimensional script that those encouraged to take a 'very dim view' might accept. Shit stirring in my opinion, for no good reason. Trying to resurrect old grievances for political gain. Having observed closely two unconnected but roughly very similar long running conflicts I can say with no uncertainty that when you are in them and acting and observing from the inside things are far from clear. And time and conflict resolution change a lot. This kind of cynical revival of old stuff is both dangerous and revisionist. The past is best left where it is for historians to sort out. I take a similar view on Blair, who many would have shot. But believe he did no different to any other british politician, but we don't treat them all the same do we? I don't see anyone calling for Camerons head, because of the total fuckup that is what remains of Libya. He, like Blair, was a big player. Corbyn not so much at all. He never was in power, and there were after all two sides in that terrible conflict and many losers, but here in England who was even talking to the other side? And today we have relative peace there, because some said we have to talk. And I know and understand the difficulties and historic mistakes in such processes. They are never pure or unfraught.

But there you go. Helping create a picture of someone untrust worthy and unelectable in what are now very different times. Providing the ammunition. On a forum about Labour. That is not supportive of the tories. Why would you do that?

Because nobody is reading a forum like this looking for ammunition about Corbyn. You reckon they've not been on to this stuff yonks ago?

He got Libya right not because he's a foreign affairs genius but because he opposes all Western interventions. Even defending NATO treaty allies attacked by Putin. That's something else they'll have thought without me bringing it up. They'll have been all over Stop the War too.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:24 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:You don't think that looks evasive, the way he answers? There's literally no point in him answering like that in case he's worried about offending some old Republicans.

No he's explained that in all kinds of contexts. He has a point. He doesn't ever want to take sides. He always wants to promote dialogue between all parties.

This may be misguided, but he IS consistent.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:24 pm

[In reply to Tubby

No but then I am a Labour supporter so don't look to create problems

If you think that is bad what must you think about Blair's lies?

Did you criticise him the same way and campaign so vocally against Labour in 2005?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:25 pm

I see that the "country coming together" line didn't last long...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:25 pm

Banal Christian May admiring Harry Enfield impersonator no doubt delighted in winding up,why waste energy,on that note.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:28 pm

How about the Tories threatening Spain....much worse surely?

Again why bring up hypothetical situations to criticise a party you pretend to support?

Have Russia attacked anyone yet?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:28 pm

How about the Tories threatening Spain....much worse surely?

Again why bring up hypothetical situations to criticise a party you pretend to support?

Have Russia attacked anyone yet?

Post by **adam** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:29 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I see that the "country coming together" line didn't last long...

I'm not sure I can think of a more audacious political lie in recent times than 'the country has come together'.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:29 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Reeves isn't the best, but she was wilfully misreprented by lots of people on that "tougher than the Tories" stuff. She was talking about a very precise thing- young people turning down jobs, and they'd be offered a compulsory one paid for by a tax on banks.

I haven't got any sense from the current leadership that they have any idea how to pay for the benefits they're defending. I respect them for defending them though, but you can't expect much credit from the electorate in the current climate if you're basically saying "stick it on the national debt". It's current spending. We need to be covering that, and borrowing for investment.

Sorry, no, Reeves went on to be all the things I did not want to believe she was.

Anybody could do better on public spending that the tories currently are doing. Not only have they squandered vast sums for precisely no gain, and indeed increased levels of national suffering, but they have misled the public to a scandalous degree. Trying to destroy Labour on paying for benefits is incredible. And paying for the NHS and a lot more. We are paying theough the nose for every less, as regulations have been lifted and a free for all involving public funds has ensued.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:29 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I see that the "country coming together" line didn't last long...

How is this not completely bloody terrifying? And Paul, the Lexiters were told time and time again this would happen: I don't give a flying one for their sensitivities. I despise them.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:30 pm

Sadly,immune from dismotivation,diversion.I'm a no hoper as far as that quest is concerned.I'm doomed.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:31 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Tubby

Tory shoot to kill

Tory support for Pinochet

Tory support for Osama

Tory support for Saudis Arabia

Tory support for Bahrain

Tory support for Contras

Tory support for Apartheid

Did May oppose this.....?

Did Cameron?

Would expect Tories to ignore it and focus on Corbyn....what is your excuse?

Excuses like the electorate laughing in your face if you try and tie May to most of that, given she wasn't even in Parliament.

Saudi Arabia is a fair call, but they'll only bring up Corbyn on Press TV.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:40 pm

I've a week in Italy next month - I don't have a mobile and I'm tempted not to even try and find an internet cafe.

Won't that be bliss - a whole week without electioneering...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:41 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Reeves isn't the best, but she was wilfully misreprented by lots of people on that "tougher than the Tories" stuff. She was talking about a very precise thing- young people turning down jobs, and they'd be offered a compulsory one paid for by a tax on banks.

I haven't got any sense from the current leadership that they have any idea how to pay for the benefits they're defending. I respect them for defending them though, but you can't expect much credit from the electorate in the current climate if you're basically saying "stick it on the national debt". It's current spending. We need to be covering that, and borrowing for investment.
Sorry, no, Reeves went on to be all the things I did not want to believe she was.

Anybody could do better on public spending that the tories currently are doing. Not only have they squandered vast sums for precisely no gain, and indeed increased levels of national suffering, but they have misled the public to a scandalous degree. Trying to destroy Labour on paying for benefits is incredible. And paying for the NHS and a lot more. We are paying theough the nose for every less, as regulations have been lifted and a free for all involving public funds has ensued.

Reeves was seriously done over by self-interested critics from the left on that point, that's what I'm saying.

Corbyn's not going to lead the first ever government with no waste, come on.

If you're not going to raise extra money to pay for current benefits, and I've seen no credible plan to do so, you're asking future generations to do so. It's not all that principled in my book.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:41 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:I see that the "country coming together" line didn't last long...

How is this not completely bloody terrifying? And Paul, the Lexiters were told time and time again this would happen: I don't give a flying one for their sensitivities. I despise them.

Fucking hell, when did the Daily Mail stop admiring Hitler and start impersonating his propaganda?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:41 pm

Changing mind on view of howsilly (football related)

Joke.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:43 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:How about the Tories threatening Spain....much worse surely?

Again why bring up hypothetical situations to criticise a party you pretend to support?

Have Russia attacked anyone yet?

Erm yes - Georgia and Ukraine. To name a couple.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:43 pm

Not someone given to over the top rhetoric...

Nearly Legal‏ @nearlylegal 35m35 minutes ago
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Nearly Legal Retweeted Neil Henderson
I see the Mail has gone full Blackshirt as its starting point for the election. This bodes well.