Wednesday 19th April 2017

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 6:15 am

Good Corbyn!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 6:23 am

A bright and breezy Corbyn here

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/j ... n-10251700" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The question now is what sort of country do we want Britain to be after Brexit."

No it isn't. Brexit is two years away.

Emily Thornberry on Newsnight said Labour hadn't "picked a side" on Brexit.

I don't think this tactic of trying to talk about anything else is going to work very well.

Tom Blenkinsop and Alan Johnson quitting. Harriet Harman staying. Vince Cable returning.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 7:29 am

Met a lib dem along the digital way misleading the unaware about their role in the fees fiasco in 2010, averring that it was labour wot dunnit. Cited introduction of fees in 1998. Staggering what people will do when an election is on.

Wearing factor "30

000" to protect from the glaringly obvious.

Been haunted by the cry of "saboteurs" all night. The sound of honest to goodness clogs would be heartening tbh.

I have nothing useful to do at all, just a useless eater, so I hope you won't mind me emerging again. The next two months promise to be a real bonfire of vanities, or do I mean banquet....

Good morning all.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 7:51 am

Morning.

Duly noted that the Sun editorial (not front page) used the headline "Crush pro-EU saboteurs, PM" back in November.

Meanwhile, even old splinter-arse himself has invoked the F-word...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 8:20 am

More of that unity stuff:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 8:24 am

No one can tell me that dm cover didn't get passed by downing street. It ticks every one of their boxes.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 8:24 am

Good morning. I can hear why May doesn't want to do debates. Robinson is tearing her a new one.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 8:28 am

seeingclearly wrote:No one can tell me that dm cover didn't get passed by downing street. It ticks every one of their boxes.

Exactly. She and Dacre are completely indistinguishable in my mind.

By the by, not sure I've ever seen such dead, soulless eyes in a politician either.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 8:31 am

Mind you, imagine the "I told you so"s if Corbyn actually won?

All those who backed him in 2015 would come flooding back.

I'd be the first to put my hands up and say I got it wrong.

[NB however, that he will lose was and is not my primary reason for opposing the current leader.]

May useless on radio 4 just now. McDonnell rather good I thought.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 8:39 am

Good morfternoon.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:14 am

Ian Wright MP quits. So that makes three Labour MPs so far. Far fewer than I expected.

Add Pat Glass, so that is four.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:16 am

Amber Rudd is citing Theresa May's wish to have "support from her MPs" (re "Brexit") as one of the reasons for calling a General Election. What changes is she (TM) expecting in their views\make-up, then? The whole thing stands up less and less to scrutiny.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:19 am

PorFavor wrote:Amber Rudd is citing Theresa May's wish to have "support from her MPs" (re "Brexit") as one of the reasons for calling a General Election. What changes is she (TM) expecting in their views\make-up, then? The whole thing stands up less and less to scrutiny.

Her MPs must be every MP in her parliament then.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:20 am

PorFavor wrote:Amber Rudd is citing Theresa May's wish to have "support from her MPs" (re "Brexit") as one of the reasons for calling a General Election. What changes is she (TM) expecting in their views\make-up, then? The whole thing stands up less and less to scrutiny.

Hi PF

I'm struggling to stay around this place, but insightful comments like this make it worth looking in.

Exactly! Presumably she wants unwavering support from a line of Theresa clones

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:21 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39631083" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Housing problems causing mental illness, says charity

PIP debate pulled

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:35 am

Morning all.

StephenDolan wrote:Good morning. I can hear why May doesn't want to do debates. Robinson is tearing her a new one.

I see she used the Cameron line of "we debate every week!" which roughly translates as "He asks questions and I try and avoid answering"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:55 am

https://jennymorrisnet.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... y-has.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personal Independence Payment: why has the government decided there are “too many disabled people”?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:57 am

@PaulfromYorkshire

Wotcha!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 9:59 am

https://dpac.uk.net/2017/04/everyone-wr ... -tribunal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is everyone in the WRAG likely to work again? Not according to one Upper Tribunal

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 10:12 am

http://www.housingexcellence.co.uk/news ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CIH urges politicians to put housing crisis on centrestage of General Election campaign

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 10:22 am

Interesting on the 'spiral of silence' adjustment and how it is now impacting on headline polling numbers

https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2017/04/its-t ... upid.html/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 10:34 am

48m ago
09:46
More than 150,000 people applied to register to vote yesterday, the Press Association’s Ian Jones reports.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 10:34 am

Nick Clegg and Vince Cable standing again.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:26 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Mind you, imagine the "I told you so"s if Corbyn actually won?

All those who backed him in 2015 would come flooding back.

I'd be the first to put my hands up and say I got it wrong.

[NB however, that he will lose was and is not my primary reason for opposing the current leader.]

May useless on radio 4 just now. McDonnell rather good I thought.

That is known as a nice problem to have.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:28 am

Not much to argue against here:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/04 ... -great-lie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When real life feels like a history textbook, and a pretty basic one at that.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:28 am

Phewww.....still able to post....not banned yet then

Will see if I last the day!

Listened to a recording of May on radio this morning....bloody hell she was bad

Tell me again why she is PM material and Corbyn will never be?

It is easy to say 'because the public think so'- I would like to hear some concrete reasons why

And if it is down to public perception - where does that perception come from?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:33 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Amber Rudd is citing Theresa May's wish to have "support from her MPs" (re "Brexit") as one of the reasons for calling a General Election. What changes is she (TM) expecting in their views\make-up, then? The whole thing stands up less and less to scrutiny.
Hi PF

I'm struggling to stay around this place, but insightful comments like this make it worth looking in.

Exactly! Presumably she wants unwavering support from a line of Theresa clones

Pessimistic view, she wanted to win big before Corbyn quit or was forced out.

Optimistic view, she needs to screw over the Brexiteers in negotiations with the EU.

The second approach works for her as follows.

1. A big majority will owe her and mostly shut up.
2. The 2022 election should see a semi credible Labour threat so that will keep many of the marginal seat winners in line, thus giving her a mainstream majority.

Her big issue right now is no Tory MP is worried about losing their seat, or an election, so have free reign to cause chaos over their pet Brexit. May doesn't fancy an economic suicide Brexit forced on her by the Tory Maoist brigade.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:36 am

NonOxCol wrote:Not much to argue against here:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/04 ... -great-lie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When real life feels like a history textbook, and a pretty basic one at that.

Another reason Corbyn could do the country a massive favour by standing aside for a more mainstream candidate. Why willingly play the role of patsy in her poisonous game?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:37 am

hsom, you should know by now, this forum doesn't do banning, if SH doesn't get banned, it's highly unlikely you will.
You're much more welcome to me than s/he is, anyway, I don't see his posts but I can't imagine wanting to block yours.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:43 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Not much to argue against here:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/04 ... -great-lie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When real life feels like a history textbook, and a pretty basic one at that.
Another reason Corbyn could do the country a massive favour by standing aside for a more mainstream candidate. Why willingly play the role of patsy in her poisonous game?

Another day where some people carp on about their own party whilst the Tories literally get away with murder, or are you just running disruption for Theresa these days? If you cant support labour fine, admit you're voting for someone else, support them and present the arguments for their election, but this unending incessant droning whine about corbyn is fuck-knuckle boring.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:43 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:May doesn't fancy an economic suicide Brexit forced on her by the Tory Maoist brigade.

I hope that's her reasoning, and indeed that a 'softer' brexit will be the outcome. I'm not as confident of it as you appear to be, mainly because I don't believe she herself cares one way or the other.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:46 am

gilsey wrote:hsom, you should know by now, this forum doesn't do banning, if SH doesn't get banned, it's highly unlikely you will.
You're much more welcome to me than s/he is, anyway, I don't see his posts but I can't imagine wanting to block yours.

I have been explicitly threatened with a ban (not quite sure what for as link in message doesn't work) but I assume it is for expressing my opinion about Hugo which I think is relevant as it is only possible to debate with someone who is honestly expressing their views

I could ignore but it is not what I do.....

I have said I am not changing how I post so am anticipating the next step at some point

Oh and thanks for the nice comment....

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:52 am

gilsey wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:May doesn't fancy an economic suicide Brexit forced on her by the Tory Maoist brigade.
I hope that's her reasoning, and indeed that a 'softer' brexit will be the outcome. I'm not as confident of it as you appear to be, mainly because I don't believe she herself cares one way or the other.

The TE and Tubby approach is to give May and the Tories the benefit of the doubt when interpreting intention

With Corbyn and Labour it is to assume the worst

Not sure why as the Tories have 7 years of incompetence, broken promises and outright lies behind them

It seems we have 3 prolific posters on here who hate Labour......and prefer the Tories 'menu' as explicitly said yesterday

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:52 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
gilsey wrote:hsom, you should know by now, this forum doesn't do banning, if SH doesn't get banned, it's highly unlikely you will.
You're much more welcome to me than s/he is, anyway, I don't see his posts but I can't imagine wanting to block yours.
I have been explicitly threatened with a ban (not quite sure what for as link in message doesn't work) but I assume it is for expressing my opinion about Hugo which I think is relevant as it is only possible to debate with someone who is honestly expressing their views

I could ignore but it is not what I do.....

I have said I am not changing how I post so am anticipating the next step at some point

Oh and thanks for the nice comment....

You're threatened with a ban but Hugo is still here trolling every day? seriously?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:54 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Not much to argue against here:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/04 ... -great-lie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When real life feels like a history textbook, and a pretty basic one at that.
Another reason Corbyn could do the country a massive favour by standing aside for a more mainstream candidate. Why willingly play the role of patsy in her poisonous game?

At this point, he shouldn't go.

Labour will lose badly even if he went tomorrow and were replaced by, say, Cooper, the most plausible leader.

He needs to stand, the PLP needs to support him, and when Labour is defeated the fools who elected him need to be given no excuse for failure.

If he were replaced they'd all be calling betrayal, and we'd be back here soon enough.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:55 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Not much to argue against here:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/04 ... -great-lie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When real life feels like a history textbook, and a pretty basic one at that.
Another reason Corbyn could do the country a massive favour by standing aside for a more mainstream candidate. Why willingly play the role of patsy in her poisonous game?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You don't have to subscribe entirely to the conspiracy theory of history, although the idea the possible charges were totally irrelevant to her decision I find preposterous.

But the leader of the Opposition has disappointed me hugely at every single turn since 24th June.

Meanwhile, I thought I, Daniel Blake was a vital and moving film. However, this...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... is ridiculous.

I am not on Twitter myself but follow around 30-40 Labour-supporting people regularly. The most right-wing of them is probably Philip Collins. The most left-wing of them is probably Josie Long. None of them are Dan Hodges.

None of them are entirely happy with Corbyn - most, it must be said, have been increasingly critical since June last year. And here we have an ultra basically telling virtually all of them they're red Tories.

What will it actually take? Well, we'll know in seven weeks, won't we?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:58 am

Plausible in whose opinion?

Clearly not in the members, PLP? and in the electorate at large

Can't say I'm impressed......and you don't even support the party and would only do so if it became the Tories

You just want to cause the most damage to Labour as possible or move them to the right so we have another Tory party....because that is what you really are

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 11:59 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Amber Rudd is citing Theresa May's wish to have "support from her MPs" (re "Brexit") as one of the reasons for calling a General Election. What changes is she (TM) expecting in their views\make-up, then? The whole thing stands up less and less to scrutiny.
Hi PF

I'm struggling to stay around this place, but insightful comments like this make it worth looking in.

Exactly! Presumably she wants unwavering support from a line of Theresa clones
Pessimistic view, she wanted to win big before Corbyn quit or was forced out.

Optimistic view, she needs to screw over the Brexiteers in negotiations with the EU.

The second approach works for her as follows.

1. A big majority will owe her and mostly shut up.
2. The 2022 election should see a semi credible Labour threat so that will keep many of the marginal seat winners in line, thus giving her a mainstream majority.

Her big issue right now is no Tory MP is worried about losing their seat, or an election, so have free reign to cause chaos over their pet Brexit. May doesn't fancy an economic suicide Brexit forced on her by the Tory Maoist brigade.

Serious leaders value proper opposition. So Blair used to complain that IDS never allowed him to adopt a more intermediate position because he provided no opposition.

So, May needs the threat of a credible Labour opposition if she is to resist her own rightwing. A big Tory majority, and a credible Labour opposition, would suit her very well.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:00 pm

Temulkar wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
gilsey wrote:hsom, you should know by now, this forum doesn't do banning, if SH doesn't get banned, it's highly unlikely you will.
You're much more welcome to me than s/he is, anyway, I don't see his posts but I can't imagine wanting to block yours.
I have been explicitly threatened with a ban (not quite sure what for as link in message doesn't work) but I assume it is for expressing my opinion about Hugo which I think is relevant as it is only possible to debate with someone who is honestly expressing their views

I could ignore but it is not what I do.....

I have said I am not changing how I post so am anticipating the next step at some point

Oh and thanks for the nice comment....
You're threatened with a ban but Hugo is still here trolling every day? seriously?

Yes very explicitly

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:02 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Plausible in whose opinion?

Clearly not in the members, PLP? and in the electorate at large

Can't say I'm impressed......and you don't even support the party and would only do so if it became the Tories

You just want to cause the most damage to Labour as possible or move them to the right so we have another Tory party....because that is what you really are

I am a bit puzzled why you post stuff like this.

Let us assume, arguendo, that I am indeed a Tory plant, cunningly (?!) seeking out votes on the Flythenest messageboard (seems a bit unlikely, but run with it).

If I were, and if you've seen through my cunning disguise, why are you bothering engaging? I'd just ignore me if I were you. There is a block function is my understanding.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:04 pm

I will ask the question

What has May done to be a 'serious' leader.

Just looking like Thatcher and being an introverted thinker doesn't cut it really

She was a shit home Secretary in a shit vile Government led by a shit PM

Let us see how she would do with a hostile press

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:05 pm

Well that's a nonsense.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:07 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Plausible in whose opinion?

Clearly not in the members, PLP? and in the electorate at large

Can't say I'm impressed......and you don't even support the party and would only do so if it became the Tories

You just want to cause the most damage to Labour as possible or move them to the right so we have another Tory party....because that is what you really are
I am a bit puzzled why you post stuff like this.

Let us assume, arguendo, that I am indeed a Tory plant, cunningly (?!) seeking out votes on the Flythenest messageboard (seems a bit unlikely, but run with it).

If I were, and if you've seen through my cunning disguise, why are you bothering engaging? I'd just ignore me if I were you. There is a block function is my understanding.

And let your shit go unchallenged....no!

If I block you then you will still be there with your concern troll posts

Who said you are a 'plant'.......that assumes you have been put here specifically to do a job

I just think you are a Tory troll/wum

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:10 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Plausible in whose opinion?

Clearly not in the members, PLP? and in the electorate at large

Can't say I'm impressed......and you don't even support the party and would only do so if it became the Tories

You just want to cause the most damage to Labour as possible or move them to the right so we have another Tory party....because that is what you really are
I am a bit puzzled why you post stuff like this.

Let us assume, arguendo, that I am indeed a Tory plant, cunningly (?!) seeking out votes on the Flythenest messageboard (seems a bit unlikely, but run with it).

If I were, and if you've seen through my cunning disguise, why are you bothering engaging? I'd just ignore me if I were you. There is a block function is my understanding.
And let your shit go unchallenged....no!

If I block you then you will still be there with your concern troll posts

Who said you are a 'plant'.......that assumes you have been put here specifically to do a job

I just think you are a Tory troll/wum

Yes. Now you see there is a difference between challenging what I post, by say posting links to alternative data or giving substantive argument, and saying "liar, Tory, Troll."

Tell you what, if I put "'Liar, Tory, Troll' -Temulkar, Howsilly" in my sig, could we take that as read?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:15 pm

Can you answer two questions from assertions you have made (with no data)

Why Yvette Cooper is a plausible Labour leader and with whom?

Why is Theresa May a serious leader?

Edited to add:

There was a leadership election in the Summer.....seem to have missed Cooper standing. Oh sorry forgot Labour is misogynistic (and anti-semitic) as well isn't it.

All those awful Labour members not behaving as we want so let us insult them all

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:16 pm

"Tell you what, if I put "'Liar, Tory, Troll' -Temulkar, Howsilly" in my sig, could we take that as read?"

I only call people who lie liars and post the evidence for their lies when I do (or when they have deleted the offending post point people to the deletion, of course) I also don't hide behind a user name, my name and occupation are well enough known on here and elsewhere. Who are you Convolvulus?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:20 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Can you answer two questions from assertions you have made (with no data)

Why Yvette Cooper is a plausible Labour leader and with whom?

Why is Theresa May a serious leader?

Cooper, from last night

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/04 ... 95004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not quite sure where you think I have praised May for anything other than her political skill in springing this snap general election. As I said yesterday, she was a terrible Home Secretary, and is a Beta leader that any decent leader of the opposition would beat easily.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:25 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Can you answer two questions from assertions you have made (with no data)

Why Yvette Cooper is a plausible Labour leader and with whom?

Why is Theresa May a serious leader?

Cooper, from last night

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/04 ... 95004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not quite sure where you think I have praised May for anything other than her political skill in springing this snap general election. As I said yesterday, she was a terrible Home Secretary, and is a Beta leader that any decent leader of the opposition would beat easily.

On the link.....and? Doesn't say anything about her being plausible outside the PLP....and nothing really new here except Waugh bugging up one of his mates

And you referred to May as a serious leader further up the page

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:25 pm

Andrew Smith standing down. One of the more useless Labour MPs, and so wont be missed. A rare safe seat in the south (outside London)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 19 Apr, 2017 12:25 pm

Please don't start on our volunteer mods. They're not obliged to try to police this increasingly strange locale and we would be lost without them.

On Hugo - I've stayed out of this mostly, but I would say that whether s/he intends it or not, the board often degenerates into unpleasantness when s/he's fanning the flames of discontent. On the other hand, I always like hearing from TE and Tubby just as much as I enjoyed hearing from Ephemerid and Toby. PF goes without saying - oil/troubled waters (she's the former). Tolerance is what the board intended.

I think, and have said this before, it would do everyone a favour if we proceeded as follows:

If YOU think someone is a troll (or whatever the appropriate term) do not engage with them and leave it at that.

This will reduce the troll-other poster arguments, while managing to avoid inadvertently banning someone who is simply a poor communicator, and avoid kicking someone off who other people like engaging with. If there was someone here one of us would like to see the back of (for whatever reason) but other people enjoyed chatting with them, how would that work?

(PS: don't be cross, am not trying to kick up a fuss here, just want things here to get/stay better).