Monday 24th April 2017

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howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Willow904 wrote:Perhaps the press could ask Tim Farron about Trident and Jeremy Corbyn about gay marriage, just to mix things up a bit ;)

Personally, I don't think either is much of a vote swinger at this stage.

Meanwhile leave voters are showing every indication of voting Tory to secure Brexit, as was the very obvious intention of the "snap election" strategy.

I haven't seen anything yet that looks likely to shake this pattern up significantly. Voters ignored the effects of austerity when they went to the polls just 2 years ago, though they were obvious (and cruel enough) then. With the Tory driven focus on Brexit ever since it's hard to see why that would have changed and even harder to see how to change it now in just a few short weeks.

Something could come up. I'd like to think Tory electoral fraud could cause problems for them, but the way things have been lately, I'm not exactly banking on it.

Hope for the best......etc.
I think that is possibly the most accurate analysis - pity our political commentators don't have a much insight as you to raise these sort of questions

I just hope that this support is weak and can crumble way but we need to unite as a party (and work with others as well) and get May out from under cover....they are hiding her away for a reason....ie she is incompetent

For that though we would need the support of the media and that is a touch nut to crack with BBC and Sky dominating the tv and the oligarchs the print.......need to draw blood somehow to pique their interest
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I agree it's shameful so far May has got away not endorsing Macron.

In the meantime, I see Ellie Mae reckons Welsh Labour is a "husk". One that''s been in power 18 years in Cardiff.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

You're offered Tory hard Brexit or Labour hard Brexit. A Tory who voted Remain is going to prefer Tory hard Brexit.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I agree it's shameful so far May has got away not endorsing Macron.

In the meantime, I see Ellie Mae reckons Welsh Labour is a "husk". One that''s been in power 18 years in Cardiff.

So you agree that May is actually proving herself to be incompetent and unsuited to the job as PM and Corbyn should be given the chance to show if he is better?

Forget what public opinion thinks....do you think that May is more competent in the job than Corbyn would be?

And if the answer is Yes then why?
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:You're offered Tory hard Brexit or Labour hard Brexit. A Tory who voted Remain is going to prefer Tory hard Brexit.
So you do not think that the Labour Party would have a more conciliatory approach to the EU than the Tories at all?

Labour have set out a number of principles under Starmer and the amendments put down suggest a far more positive negotiating position with a view to not having the confrontation

You think that there is no difference between a Starmer vs Fox/Davis and Johnson vision do you? Really?

This is why I frequently criticise you Tubby you make these comments as though it they are the 'truth' and making no difference between Labour and the Tories at all....

This is the same approach some people used saying why vote Miliband as he is just a 'Red Tory' with the same policies. That was bollocks then as I think your comment is now

A Labour led Government, in my view, will produce a much better deal than the Tories as the party is more positive about internationalism than the Tories. I know Corbyn has had his issues with the EU in the past but I don't believe he is dishonest and believe him when he says he wants a positive relationship.....much more belief than I have about May.

It won't be enough for some of you but there are only going to be two people who are PM on 9th June - May or Corbyn......which one do you want it to be?
NonOxCol
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the free press:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please do read the full judgement and try not to scream into the void.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

She caught me out with the election. So she's got some smart strategists, that's for sure. That's about all though.

Don't rate Corby or his inner circle, as you know, but Labour would put together a much better more competent government.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:She caught me out with the election. So she's got some smart strategists, that's for sure. That's about all though.

Don't rate Corby or his inner circle, as you know, but Labour would put together a much better more competent government.
So what is your answer then?

There will be one of two people PM on the 9th June - who is it to be?

And if you prefer one over the other shouldn't you be pushing as much as you can to make sure that person is elected....or do you think that it doesn't matter?

The answer is one of two words.....Corbyn or May

If May then can you explain why?

When it was Blair vs Howard in 2005 - neither option was great. One was a compromised war monger and the other a xenophobic dinosaur. Was 100% being Blair though as PM despite all misgivings because, at the end of the day, under FPTP it was going to be one of the two......same with Brown, same with Miliband (although they were easier) - also was for Foot in 1083 although was too young to vote.

If I had gone for Howard over Blair then I would have had to have a reason why.....doesn't mean that I didn't despise Blair and wanted him to be replaced as soon as possible but I still voted for him and tried to persuade others the same
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by seeingclearly »

The intention in calling an election is to distance and make irrelevent the last election, and any issues surrounding its outcome, and to retain power. The means to do that is to mobilise brexit voters. It is quite cynical, really.
NonOxCol
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

Well I'm voting Labour, but I genuinely hope this woman loses her seat because she's a fucking multi-level disgrace.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/labour-mp ... ter-2017-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

seeingclearly wrote:The intention in calling an election is to distance and make irrelevent the last election, and any issues surrounding its outcome, and to retain power. The means to do that is to mobilise brexit voters. It is quite cynical, really.
and this is why, if the polls are right, it is not down to Labour really no matter what people tell you about the reasons why they voted Tory

It will be all about Immigration and xenophobia

If you are Brexit then a Labour Brexit will be better for the UK as Starmer is much better than the triumvirate of clowns (even though they are not really in control - May is possibly worse than those three)

We can also hope that if things start going bad that Labour would revert to a way of staying in although this is a more unlikely proposition than I initially thought

Labour is a better option than the Tories (I hope you would agree) but the weakness is that they are not so blatantly anti-immigration (ignoring some of the PLP) and that is what people mean when they see 'Brexit'

If that is the case then those who vote on that basis are welcome to a Tory Government...and all it brings (pity for the rest of you though)
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

NonOxCol wrote:Well I'm voting Labour, but I genuinely hope this woman loses her seat because she's a fucking multi-level disgrace.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/labour-mp ... ter-2017-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I could never bring myself to vote for her....would probably abstain but she is as you describe....there are a couple of others too.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

There's only one person going to be PM on June 6th, I'm afraid. Just as there was only one person going to be PM in 2005. I lived in Bethnal Green and Bow then, and lots of people who normally vote Labour voted for George Galloway. I was in hospital on election day. Lots of others voted Lib Dem.

I have loyalty to Welsh Labour, so I might vote Labour anyway. But I'm less likely to if I think Corbyn is staying come what may so that McDonnell can get his amendment through.

He can end all this talk today.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

NonOxCol wrote:Well I'm voting Labour, but I genuinely hope this woman loses her seat because she's a fucking multi-level disgrace.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/labour-mp ... ter-2017-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think Hoey is ripe for a Gina Miller.
SpinningHugo
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:The bigger problem on defence was the ISIS question, the answer to which is yes, which can then be qualified with caveats about risk to innocent people. What he actually said gave an unfortunate impression.

Trident is just a bit daft, he knows the policy, he will have known the line to take and yet he didn't just say Labour will renew Trident. The rest of his answer to be fair was pretty reasonable.

If you have to be corrected by your election chief, twice, and your shadow defence secretary things aren't going well. What is worrying is either:

Nobody is rehearsing and advising responses on two very obvious questions or.

Corbyn is ignoring his briefings.

There is an alternative all too plausible explanation, fitting with everything we know.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:There's only one person going to be PM on June 6th, I'm afraid. Just as there was only one person going to be PM in 2005. I lived in Bethnal Green and Bow then, and lots of people who normally vote Labour voted for George Galloway. I was in hospital on election day. Lots of others voted Lib Dem.

I have loyalty to Welsh Labour, so I might vote Labour anyway. But I'm less likely to if I think Corbyn is staying come what may so that McDonnell can get his amendment through.

He can end all this talk today.
This is mealy mouthed to be honest

I don't care who you think will be leader based on public opinion - it may be right but I had to make the same decision in 2005 despite despising Blair

If Labour voters take this attitude then we will definitely have a Tory landslide and May as PM......I assume you then agreed with people who didn't vote for Labour in 2015 as they were 'Red Tories' with the same policies?

It is a simple question

May or Corbyn?

I would find it astounding that someone posting on here would want to have May ahead of a Labour PM and if that was the case then I assume there is a reason for thinking she is more competent?

Remember today she is supposed to support first nuclear strike (undermining MAD deterrent) and has not supported a centrist against a racist for political reasons and to prevent criticism in the Mail.

If you are not going to answer just say so.....in saying that though I would assume you would prefer May

If it is Corbyn though then surely continually negativity and undermining him makes no sense......you just have to hold your nose like some of us did in 2005
NonOxCol
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

Oh look, it's the alt-right and Assange and their reaction to a two-horse race involving a Fascist:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What a shocker, eh?
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

In other news, 12% of Melenchon voters are going to support Le Pen. Melenchon is too cowardly to put them right. Or maybe he thinks a few cracked Muslim skulls is a small price for President Le Pen doing the heavy lifting of shifting the economy towards Bolivarian nonsense.
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by seeingclearly »

It will be all about immigration and xenophobia.
It was this, inherent in her Downing Street statement and in her statement to the House that impressed upon me the most just how far this Tory government has strayed from a genuinely British stance and into the realm of unreason. As if she were about to unleash a pack of hounds. Given the current very worrying travel from some basic points of reason that have been beacons for every bit of social progress, not just here, but internationally, to see a British prime minister doing this made me shudder. Especially her using the exact words in the Commons. It was a moment I never thought we would descend to. I always thought we were better than that.

It is this, more than all the rest that makes me want her gone.

I have to admit though that many would not see it as I did, and would mistake this for her being a. strong PM. But I see it as a reason that she is in fact unfit for office.
Last edited by seeingclearly on Mon 24 Apr, 2017 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Oh and just to say...I don't like this pseudo-Presidential way we approach elections now

I would prefer basing it on individual MPs (which is why I couldn't vote for Hoey) and the party policy with only a certain amount of concern as to who is going to be PM

But as all the reasons for not voting Labour seem to be focused on Corbyn compared to May I think it is a fair question to ask

Awaiting answer with interest
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:In other news, 12% of Melenchon voters are going to support Le Pen. Melenchon is too cowardly to put them right. Or maybe he thinks a few cracked Muslim skulls is a small price for President Le Pen doing the heavy lifting of shifting the economy towards Bolivarian nonsense.
As cowardly as not saying who you would prefer to have as PM on June 9th?

By the way I think Melançon is far to the left of where Corbyn would be but is a clear populist as well. Better voting for him than Le Pen....unfortunately some will drift to the FN and he should say so....look for the pressure to mount on him and he is doing himself no favours
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

NonOxCol wrote:Oh look, it's the alt-right and Assange and their reaction to a two-horse race involving a Fascist:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What a shocker, eh?

They clearly don't know what matters to the French do they?
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:The bigger problem on defence was the ISIS question, the answer to which is yes, which can then be qualified with caveats about risk to innocent people. What he actually said gave an unfortunate impression.

Trident is just a bit daft, he knows the policy, he will have known the line to take and yet he didn't just say Labour will renew Trident. The rest of his answer to be fair was pretty reasonable.

If you have to be corrected by your election chief, twice, and your shadow defence secretary things aren't going well. What is worrying is either:

Nobody is rehearsing and advising responses on two very obvious questions or.

Corbyn is ignoring his briefings.

There is an alternative all too plausible explanation, fitting with everything we know.

instead of this sly insinuations and knowing winks

Write explicitly what you are accusing him of now?
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

NonOxCol wrote:Oh look, it's the alt-right and Assange and their reaction to a two-horse race involving a Fascist:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What a shocker, eh?
Indeed.

See this too from Saturday?
WikiLeaks‏Verified account @wikileaks Apr 22
Full doc: CIA orders to hack Le Pen & other French presidential candidates
It's about 2012. And "the other French presidenial candidates" are Hollande and Sarkozy. Why would you phrase it like they have, eh? And why would you not say "2012" clearly?

They did a hack of Fillon too. Fascists don't seem like bright people generally, so it's a shock to find they're the best at computer security.

Some of those FN lads look pretty scary. Assange ought to worry if he meets them and they find out he's wanted for rape.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:In other news, 12% of Melenchon voters are going to support Le Pen. Melenchon is too cowardly to put them right. Or maybe he thinks a few cracked Muslim skulls is a small price for President Le Pen doing the heavy lifting of shifting the economy towards Bolivarian nonsense.
As cowardly as not saying who you would prefer to have as PM on June 9th?

By the way I think Melançon is far to the left of where Corbyn would be but is a clear populist as well. Better voting for him than Le Pen....unfortunately some will drift to the FN and he should say so....look for the pressure to mount on him and he is doing himself no favours
I prefer Corbyn. I said so.
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by seeingclearly »

That last had me baffled too.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I hated wikileaks for ages, long before they went fascist.

You've got some emails? Some of it sounds a bit different to what we'd expect?

Crikey. It's almost like there's a thing called diplomacy.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:In other news, 12% of Melenchon voters are going to support Le Pen. Melenchon is too cowardly to put them right. Or maybe he thinks a few cracked Muslim skulls is a small price for President Le Pen doing the heavy lifting of shifting the economy towards Bolivarian nonsense.
As cowardly as not saying who you would prefer to have as PM on June 9th?

By the way I think Melançon is far to the left of where Corbyn would be but is a clear populist as well. Better voting for him than Le Pen....unfortunately some will drift to the FN and he should say so....look for the pressure to mount on him and he is doing himself no favours
I prefer Corbyn. I said so.

I don't think you did explicitly but glad you confirmed

So can you now try to ensure he is by voting Labour (or 'Welsh Labour', or tactically anti-Tory) and stop the constant sniping and negativity?

After the election it will be opening of dealing with the aftermath but until then we should be doing everything to get JC elected as PM (no matter how difficult it seems at the moment.....remember Trump - 90% likely to lose according to 538.com up to a few days before the election)

I wonder if TE and SH are of the same mind?
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by seeingclearly »

Cripes, Tubby, that one sentence there reads like an incitement to violence. or at very least condoning it. If it weren't FN would you say this of home grown violent fuckers, or would you advocate judicial process? I have met highly intelligent far right people here, they don't all attend drunken EDL rallies. and are far more lethal.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Actually there was a poll today that said 22% of Melenchon supporters are going to vote for Le Pen. But seems to be an outlier. 12% and below is more likely.
HindleA
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by HindleA »

@howsillyme

Have always viewed it as such,regardless of the fact a miniscule amount of the electorate are actually in a position to vote for him or not and complete ignoring of the local elections,which regardless of what happens a month r are of much import.What is therefore inexplicable to me if not irresponsible from those of the stated Corbyn is shitists nary mention and far from shutting up amplification ramped up to 11,which they must know is not helpful or so into the proving themselves correct shall we say misprioritising to be generous.From that perspective you surely concentrate ,here on what it means ,for example in social care differences and a reminder why the Tories were kicked out on broken promises and deceit and do you want that again,ever more.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

seeingclearly wrote:Cripes, Tubby, that one sentence there reads like an incitement to violence. or at very least condoning it. If it weren't FN would you say this of home grown violent fuckers, or would you advocate judicial process? I have met highly intelligent far right people here, they don't all attend drunken EDL rallies. and are far more lethal.
I'm not advocating or inciting it. Pointing out the irony of him, of all people, urging this utter filth on.

Of course, most FN voters aren't boot boys. But they're the party the boot boy support.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

seeingclearly wrote:Cripes, Tubby, that one sentence there reads like an incitement to violence. or at very least condoning it. If it weren't FN would you say this of home grown violent fuckers, or would you advocate judicial process? I have met highly intelligent far right people here, they don't all attend drunken EDL rallies. and are far more lethal.

FN are thugs......but Le Pen has done a good PR job in hiding that away

Just like over here there is a certain appreciation of 'toughness' against the other.....hence why Corbyn is criticised for not talking about assassination and first strike

I like and Arnie action movie as much as anyone but some people thing that violence is acceptable is looking for a solution to what concerns them...not that they would be violent themselves but accept why others way be

I am not a pacifist by any means but I don't think the use violence should ever be over-simplified or used as a knee jerk response as we often see by politicians
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

HindleA wrote:@howsillyme

Have always viewed it as such,regardless of the fact a miniscule amount of the electorate are actually in a position to vote for him or not and complete ignoring of the local elections,which regardless of what happens a month r are of much import.What is therefore inexplicable to me if not irresponsible from those of the stated Corbyn is shitists nary mention and far from shutting up amplification ramped up to 11,which they must know is not helpful or so into the proving themselves correct shall we say misprioritising to be generous.From that perspective you surely concentrate ,here on what it means ,for example in social care differences and a reminder why the Tories were kicked out on broken promises and deceit and do you want that again,ever more.

Thanks Mr A

I am not advocating carte blanche for the leadership and there will be plenty of problems post June if we have the expected result

Up to then though we should unite and stop criticising the leadership in the media or continually sniping away - especially when the alternative is an even worse May!

Carwyn Jones didn't help today whilst Sadiq Khan did much better - one made front page of the G, one didn't

Any Labour politician undermining the party should be ready to have some blame thrown at them as well if thing go badly...it is not good enough for Carwyn Jones to blame Corbyn entirely for the weakness in Wales, nor for Dugdale to hide behind him for the shambles of Scotland (and SLP are a shambles....but are far too happy to blame Corbyn)

Blaming Corbyn for everything is hiding some systemic issues for Labour, and also the lack of clear ideology that all the party, members upwards can coalesce around
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by seeingclearly »

It is tories ever more that worries me. I would rather a fractured Labour party with a decent but not very popular leader than to have five years of the escalating social destruction we have endured now for seven. Freely admit I find it incomprehensible why others would undermine possibilities to be rid, not just of the people but the inevitable consequences in ruined and lost lives. Locals every bit as important and indeed to send out message that continual destruction is neither wanted nor acceptable.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

I think Labour made huge errors after 2010 that has led to this situation

Why, oh why did the party make Ed Miliband feel that he could not continue and led to the mess we have had since then with a leader (who I respect) that is at odds with the PLP....the PLP throwing the toys out of the pram and messing just about everything up (the coup....disaster)

The party has not tried to use the massive membership base constructively (a two way relationship) but has been trying to criticise the new members ever since Corbyn's election

The best leader for Labour now would probably be a more mature Miliband with the experience of 2015 but the party did not want that to happen and completely misread the feelings of the members and the frustration building up

However, if Miliband had remained leader (he is the only person I can think of in the PLP at the moment) would he be any more likely to beat May? Would the PLP have supported him more than they did prior to 2015? Would they stop talking about 'stabbing his brother in the back'? Would the anti-semitic comments stop (funny these blatant insinuations are never mentioned by the PLP now...rather try to pin everything on Corbyn for some reason)?

My view is that Labour under Miliband or Corbyn would actually be more likely to take on vested interests such as the media and the corporations who are parasites on the public purse, as well as tax havens. They are therefore not allowed to be presented as a possible Government......the only one who would be now would be someone from the extreme right of the party

Conspiracy theory...perhaps but the onslaught began in 2007 and has continued since then
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by HindleA »

Well what ever happens in May and June,even in restricted by Tory encroachment to a four foot square piece of my back garden it will be forever red.
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

It is an utter irrelevance whether people here believe May or Corbyn would be the better PM. The public have definitively spoken (in a two horse race Corbyn came third).
The Labour leader faced his lowest rating yet when the public were questioned on who would make a better prime minister: Him or Theresa May.

Corbyn slipped to just 13%, while May stormed ahead with 51%. The PM’s lead of 38% is the highest ever recorded by YouGov.
Less than half of Labour voters rate Corbyn as best PM.

Personally May is going to be PM, is she competent absolutely not, is she fit to be PM absolutely not.

That Labour has failed the country so badly we have a venal, semi thick, incompetent would be dictator in such a position of unstoppable power is a damning indictment of the party, its leadership, its membership, the non membership (what a joke that is), and above all unions such as Unite and TSSA.

At this stage all that can be done is to fight against a defacto one party state and to try and scare the electorate as to what that might look like, which is terrifying.
Release the Guardvarks.
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by seeingclearly »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Cripes, Tubby, that one sentence there reads like an incitement to violence. or at very least condoning it. If it weren't FN would you say this of home grown violent fuckers, or would you advocate judicial process? I have met highly intelligent far right people here, they don't all attend drunken EDL rallies. and are far more lethal.

FN are thugs......but Le Pen has done a good PR job in hiding that away

Just like over here there is a certain appreciation of 'toughness' against the other.....hence why Corbyn is criticised for not talking about assassination and first strike

I like and Arnie action movie as much as anyone but some people thing that violence is acceptable is looking for a solution to what concerns them...not that they would be violent themselves but accept why others way be

I am not a pacifist by any means but I don't think the use violence should ever be over-simplified or used as a knee jerk response as we often see by politicians
Not averse to an Arnie movie and indeed like some of the darkest of scandi noir, but wholly averse to actual violence. Lived in France for a while. Amazing turnouts in dozens of cities nationwide for a murdered student, incredibly moving, thousands of people silently slow marching holding hands, heads down, turned on box later to see it replicated across the country, but was always aware of other stuff, banlieues , police harassment of immigrants, visible far right violence too. And a very strong streak of xenophobia too, especially in rural areas, but also focused around farming anger, many demos on this. Never though we are comparable to France tbh, but thats an opinion. A fact is in general they seemed for more aware of their rights, and actually the detail and substance of what those rights mean. Which does work both for and against balance in their politics. We have a different dynamic. The visible end of. our far right supporters is that they are buffoons and deluded, etc. The hidden aspect are the highly educated and well heeled. Who use their less well endowed goons to move politics the direction they wish.

I am in fact a pacifist who understands that it is not an absolutist stance. Corbyn, who is in fact exactly my age and therefore a product of some of the same influences, is I think also similar. He is also not an insular person, he has a bigger viewpoint, as he is a socialist I am glad of this, he sees us in the world, not above it. If younger, able, and capable people emerge I will be glad, but I can only see a couple with potential. (Neither of them is Starmer, though I could see his talent, and indeed his somewhat lugubrious demeanour, being better suited to other roles than PM.)

Toughness in office is not bending to every blast of populist wind, but much more about taking a principled stand on behalf of the whole nation. Current government leadership is totally devoid of this.
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

It is a simple question with a simple answer....

Who would you prefer to be PM?

I have asked people why they don't like Corbyn and there is never anything specific - similar lines to the 'Miliband is a weirdo' comment my sister made to me

Where did they get that impression from - well if the read on here probably your ranting at top volume probably hasn't helped

None of the people I have spoken to have ever seen him give a full interview, or met him or seen him in a live speaking event - so where does all the criticism come from?

And the converse why do all these people see May as competent when, as you say she clearly isn't. Again none of them have ever seen a full interview even, never met her and never seen her speak live (then again who has?)

Where are people getting their impressions from.......? Why did people have the same impression of Miliband....and of Brown?

Just seems to be coincidence that Labour leaders are all seen as 'weird' and 'incompetent' based on very little evidence, whilst clearly incompetent Tory PM are considered far more favourably?

Could it be there are more people to blame than just the Labour Party?
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Oh and can I just mention the blatant misrepresentation of his views in the media....there are numerous examples but we saw in the last short time the tweets from Kuennsberg and Robinson - also the frequent use of headlines to give a poor impression

Fallon advocated first strike nuclear strike today....no mention

May has not shown any support for the centrist in France - because the racist FN winning would help her and the Mail (a big supporter) are bigging them us

Nothing in the media so how are the voters supposed to know these vile positions unless they watch Marr and pay close attention to what is said because there is no closer questioning.....

When people make their opinions about people and their competence - where do they get the dat from to draw that conclusion?

As a final point on Newsnight tonight there was supposed to be a discussion on the clean air report...Tories refused to provide anyone so interview with Labour cancelled - allows Tories to avoid debates

May also refusing any debates - media are making noises but we can expect them to give in at some point

Perhaps this may also have an impact.....?
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Wow. I have a look on the other board? And what do I find?

Mr Silly is congratulating himself on how he's giving me the run around. Apparently I really wanted May as PM. He's mysteriously failed to tell them that I said I wanted a Labour government two hours ago. But I'm sure he was on his way there now, to correct the impression I'm supporting May.

This is poor. Very poor. Can he please not bother me again?
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by seeingclearly »

TE, i would agree we are unlikely to lose May, and I utterly agree on the consequences. However I diverge on the causes, and see that disunity of opposition that well predated Corbyn is a cause of the present situation. The damage caused by internal factionalism that resulted in undermining and even destroying Ed Milibands credibility was utterly destructive for the party. However while it is damaged, Labour still exists, and I would back it, and its current leader to the hilt over the shits currently in office. Popularity of current leader be damned.

There are of course other polls, considerably larger, that say different. But we know which ones will be used. How about a little censure right now for the BBC, who certainly deserve it. Snd who have far more influence in the eyes of the public than all the Labour infrastructure put together. (See ongoing dissonance if you mention NHS and the current state of dismantlement, people still believe in its permanence, not a clue what is coming. Not btw because of Labour who have been shouting it out for years.)

But glad to see you voicing what you actually fear from Tory rule. Thankyou.
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Final post of three in a row.......

If people who are known to be Labour supporters (ex members, ex PM) all give the impression that Labour and its membership are terrible with terrible policies and who criticise them at all opportunities with no mention of what the Tory policies are and emphasising their incompetence then are we surprised that those who are less politically motivated believe them?

How many people believe Corbyn was responsible for Brexit?

How many people believe that A50 vote was black/white?

How many believe Corbyn hates the UK and does not care about security?

How many believe Corbyn is for unlimited migration?

How many people this that Corbyn is a dangerous militant?

How many believe he is anti-semitic and tolerates racism?

His positions, if you bother to look, are far more subtle and measured than these headlines insist - his problem is he is often a bit unfocused and complicates things too much which can lead to mistakes and chaotic communication - not helped by his team I accept

When these comments are made by Tories they have limited resonance but when fellow Labour politicians make them then that does resonate....as it will do when politics are discussed between friends and ex vocal supporters say the same

Oh, and now we have Mandelson on Newsnight sticking the knife in as well! Brilliant!
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Wow. I have a look on the other board? And what do I find?

Mr Silly is congratulating himself on how he's giving me the run around. Apparently I really wanted May as PM. He's mysteriously failed to tell them that I said I wanted a Labour government two hours ago. But I'm sure he was on his way there now, to correct the impression I'm supporting May.

This is poor. Very poor. Can he please not bother me again?
No, I was commenting on how you refused to answer time and again....which I pointed out on here. The post was made before you said anything about a Labour Government

You did mention a 'Labour Government' but made no mention of Corbyn as I asked who you preferred to be PM....

I was wrong on assuming you would want May but to be honest your answers on here made that not easy to say unequivocally

If you want a Labour Government with Corbyn as PM why do you not seem to want to vote for them (some mention of Welsh Labour which does not exist as an option in this election, and you did mention Plaid as well at some point) or post anything positive about the party at the moment

I take your word as true that you want a Labour Government and Corbyn as PM though
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

seeingclearly wrote:TE, i would agree we are unlikely to lose May, and I utterly agree on the consequences. However I diverge on the causes, and see that disunity of opposition that well predated Corbyn is a cause of the present situation. The damage caused by internal factionalism that resulted in undermining and even destroying Ed Milibands credibility was utterly destructive for the party. However while it is damaged, Labour still exists, and I would back it, and its current leader to the hilt over the shits currently in office. Popularity of current leader be damned.

There are of course other polls, considerably larger, that say different. But we know which ones will be used. How about a little censure right now for the BBC, who certainly deserve it. Snd who have far more influence in the eyes of the public than all the Labour infrastructure put together. (See ongoing dissonance if you mention NHS and the current state of dismantlement, people still believe in its permanence, not a clue what is coming. Not btw because of Labour who have been shouting it out for years.)

But glad to see you voicing what you actually fear from Tory rule. Thankyou.
I don't believe Miliband was destroyed by internal factionalism. The public weren't worried about Ed Balls having his budget rewritten by John Woodcock and Jim Murphy. They were worried about the budget being rewritten by Alex Salmond. And indeed worried by Ed Balls doing the Budget at all.

I don't think it was anybody much's fault. Most governments in power during the crash lost the next election, and in America, the next one after that.
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Some interesting stuff on Wales here.

Ageing population is a big part of it.

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Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Has Roger done this one yet?

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-to-underwr ... epartment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Problem- lots of free schools are being approved and not going ahead. (Struck by meteorites? No, they haven't got any pupils and/or a site)

Result- the sort of headteachers they want are getting wary of leaving their current jobs.

Solution-

a) sort out the process of approving free schools?
b) tell worried heads that their salaries are guaranteed even if the school doesn't open.

It's b.

Why just the heads? Other staff would be fools if they didn't ask for the same.
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

This is what I posted elsewhere


'Hiya

Having some fun trying to get Tubby to say whether he wants May or Corbyn as PM on the 9th June…..

He is completely avoiding answering so I keep asking…

Obviously he cannot say Corbyn as he can then be asked to stop the negativity and lose his mates TE and SH…….and he doesn’t want to say May as it would bring down a bucket of shit on him!

I think he would prefer the latter but doesn’t want to say…..'

No you have finally confirmed Corbyn (although it took a while) then I withdraw the accusation of supporting May, but as I said it was not obvious

I stand by my point that if people want Labour and Corbyn to win on June 8th that we should at least stop the incessant criticism of the party until that date and then we can have the debate over the leadership again
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Re: Monday 24th April 2017

Post by HindleA »

http://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_com ... P555znTVpV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Prisons and Courts Bill dropped
Locked