Monday 24th April 2017

[seeingclearly]

Wow. I have a look on the other board? And what do I find?

Mr Silly is congratulating himself on how he's giving me the run around. Apparently I really wanted May as PM. He's mysteriously failed to tell them that I said I wanted a Labour government two hours ago. But I'm sure he was on his way there now, to correct the impression I'm supporting May.

This is poor. Very poor. Can he please not bother me again?

Sometimes Tubby, your asinine comments really show you up. For weeks and weeks you have put up posts with withering critiques of Corbyn to finish up. What do you expect? Your posts, and those of a few others have followed a recogniseable pattern that is used by the media over and again to the point that it is a joke that there is nothing bad, damaging, or downright evil that cannot be attributable to Corbyn, before that it was Ed, before That it was Gordon. The three roots of all evil! you then declare a bit reluctantly your intention to vote Labour and support Corbyn!

hsom posted elsewhere well before you made your declaration. But you say, after your volte face, that 'This is poor. Very poor." Unbelievable.

As far as I can see, hsom has had a consistent positiion, has stood firm on what he/she believes, in spite of considerable argument here, and negative response too. I have no idea what prompts hsom to engage here, but know that it has become an odd place to visit, as one of the early members, drawn by certain posters on the old Guardian forums, there are people here I care about whose opinions differ from mine but I have respect for. But don't often find it welcoming or congenial any more. But keep coming for the voices who attracted me way back then. Who were always prepared for intellectual argument, but rarely if ever took offense.

Frankly I am glad of hsoms posts, not just for their content but for the responses to though I am aware that some just disappear or lurk, and few engage. As if there is only one correct line to follow. No wonder Labour is in such a mess with few to champion unity, or any sense of solidarity, or to help present a public facing picture that counters the tory narrative. It baffles me that people like you, Tubby, who say you are a Labour supporter seem to promote the tory myths. I would love an explanation of this. I can far more understand TEs position. Far more than the snipe-retreat-repeat-attack Corbyn-recant, off on thing you and a few others do. Or Willow, who I don't always agree with, but who is heartfelt in opinion.

I thought if we are members of this board we can post, and in our own way, and still be free to have other online conversations.

Slightly disgusted at the way this one went, though I should have seen it coming after the Assange post.

[seeingclearly]

TE, i would agree we are unlikely to lose May, and I utterly agree on the consequences. However I diverge on the causes, and see that disunity of opposition that well predated Corbyn is a cause of the present situation. The damage caused by internal factionalism that resulted in undermining and even destroying Ed Milibands credibility was utterly destructive for the party. However while it is damaged, Labour still exists, and I would back it, and its current leader to the hilt over the shits currently in office. Popularity of current leader be damned.

There are of course other polls, considerably larger, that say different. But we know which ones will be used. How about a little censure right now for the BBC, who certainly deserve it. Snd who have far more influence in the eyes of the public than all the Labour infrastructure put together. (See ongoing dissonance if you mention NHS and the current state of dismantlement, people still believe in its permanence, not a clue what is coming. Not btw because of Labour who have been shouting it out for years.)

But glad to see you voicing what you actually fear from Tory rule. Thankyou.

I don't believe Miliband was destroyed by internal factionalism. The public weren't worried about Ed Balls having his budget rewritten by John Woodcock and Jim Murphy. They were worried about the budget being rewritten by Alex Salmond. And indeed worried by Ed Balls doing the Budget at all.

I don't think it was anybody much's fault. Most governments in power during the crash lost the next election, and in America, the next one after that.

Ed was definitely damsged by internal factionalism, there were times I swear he did not know what to say or do to appease them. The tory line on miliband and the labour views of those who did not support him were so rife by 2015 it was easy to paint him as Salmonds puppet. Something he was decidedly not. But then the constant attacks were definitely showing in his demeanour. And the party failed to shut up his enemies who declared themselves Labour in the media and took him apart. Exactly the same as Corbyn and Brown.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm slightly confused where I said HowSilly shouldn't be allowed to post. I said I'd ignore him.

But a joyful ode to free speech you wrote there, even if my speech is to be treated differently to people saying exactly the same thing, because I've got some devious plan to it.

As I recall, the big fall out here when the other place was set up- didn't that happen when I wasn't even around? Maybe that was part of my devious plan too.

I spend too much time on the internet. Spending less time is overdue.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Ed thought the election was winnable pretty much to the end, if anything he was undone by polls that misled him in strategy and by the rise of the SNP that allowed English nationalism to be exploited by Crosby.

However he resigned, not because he was forced out, although some would have tried, but because he took responsibility and felt having failed to make significant progress on 2010 he had to go.

Corbyn should have done the same after his awful referendum campaign.

[TechnicalEphemera]

I am clearly not as up on Labour internal politics as I should be. Andrew Fischer is drawing up the manifesto and is the ten year old boy suspended for this tweet.

Fisher wrote: “FFS if you live in Croydon South, vote with dignity, vote @campaignbeard.” Campaignbeard was the Twitter handle of the Class War candidate, Jon Bigger.

Grade A1 certified and documented idiot (edited for crude language)

So at this point I feel the need to accept Hugo's conspiracy theory that the left are trying to engineer the biggest election defeat in Labour history. Because really nothing else makes any logical sense.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ss-say-mps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Two-tier refugee system leaves many destitute and homeless,say MP's

[seeingclearly]

I'm slightly confused where I said HowSilly shouldn't be allowed to post. I said I'd ignore him.

But a joyful ode to free speech you wrote there, even if my speech is to be treated differently to people saying exactly the same thing, because I've got some devious plan to it.

As I recall, the big fall out here when the other place was set up- didn't that happen when I wasn't even around? Maybe that was part of my devious plan too.

I spend too much time on the internet. Spending less time is overdue.

Was you said, "Can he please not bother me again."

I was never part of any "big fall out". In fact was in hospital, no internet and attached to various things to keep me alive. Before that people had left in their own time more than a few. Could rarely read on my phone but not reply. Didn't vote, both dates out of the game, double the time, so why put this onme. Saw a fair bit about flouncing, bit derogatory that, though once or twice it may have been used as humour mostly seemed to be used as attack, didn't think it was warranted, nor tonight, but sure that anyone of those people could defend their right to post elsewhere, and indeed leave here if they so wanted, far better than me. I must be a sucker for punishment, either that or there are posters here whose view I value, and I am kind of stubborn, thinking my views as valid as others, but never that free speech means trying to destroy the party I support or anyone who supports its elected leader. With an election in the offing, quite important an issue. Something I also felt last June.

Your reference to devious plan is absurd.

[HindleA]

With respect,of course they can post anywhere but understand T's annoyance of in effect running commentary,think running off and giggling with others in a corner impression.In turn howsilly did later post here but it shows the inherent danger,creation of suspiscion,bad faith,etc so perhaps best for exchanges to be self contained on one site of choosing.

[seeingclearly]

Ed thought the election was winnable pretty much to the end, if anything he was undone by polls that misled him in strategy and by the rise of the SNP that allowed English nationalism to be exploited by Crosby.

However he resigned, not because he was forced out, although some would have tried, but because he took responsibility and felt having failed to make significant progress on 2010 he had to go.

Corbyn should have done the same after his awful referendum campaign.

TE, as you know the referendum was not party political. An unfortunate result, yes. I know people who predicted it right after Cameron announced it, and had arguments to back up why, and vice versa. All pre-Corbyn. He was not a deciding factor. I know that a whole load of health workers for instance were totally convinced that leaving would provide the means to save the NHS. Their dawning awareness it wouldn't was sad beyond belief.

There were also many young people new to politics who said what we have now isn't working so lets try something different. Of course they were far too young to ever have remembered what an insular little place we once were, and how better contact with european nations had actually made us all better off. And then there were another lot of people who all thought it was going to happen immediately, because the information on everything to do with it was so confusing. Thats is entirely without any xenophobes, rascists, nationalists, etc. Or the just straight in or outers. You can't blame Corbyn for any of that. Just the totally confused must have created the gap between in and out. Do you think his voice would have carried greater weight than government propaganda or the utterly incompetent way the referendum was framed? I am shocked you think one man, in opposition, and not in office could be to blame for what we both probably agree is a kind of national calamity.

[HindleA]

I've been cursing the Labour party for decades,I think it is a compulsory condition of membership,to fair.

[seeingclearly]

With respect,of course they can post anywhere but understand T's annoyance of in effect running commentary,think running off and giggling with others in a corner impression.In turn howsilly did later post here but it shows the inherent danger,creation of suspiscion,bad faith,etc so perhaps best for exchanges to be self contained on one site of choosing.

Hi, both offending post and site concerned just not about giggling in corners, which suggests tittering schoolkids or something. And actually thought Tubby was made of much sterner stuff, having lived through Hackney times and all that entails. Funny that suspicion, bad faith etc not an issue over there, and no treading eggshells.

I remember when a good argument here on intellectual grounds was welcome if not the order of the day, we all learned from it, and conformity not at all expected. And I hate the idea of freedom of speech being set in a context of conformity. As you know people of good faith and long acquaintance on both sites.

If offense given not intended, but I am living a far too precarious time of life to mince words. Some of us may not outlive another five years of tory rule and all it entails, may be less about the argument and more about the actuality. I know you understand this, every post that signals another tory assault on peoples lives tells me so. But here these days without some greatly missed voices of such stuff little discussion or worse, indifference. Just like in the world outside. Walk on by, nothing to look at here.

[seeingclearly]

Cursing not an issue, curse away. Its not supporting, or letting the real enemy off the hook is a problem.

At most basic, who would I have lunch with, could stand for Gordon, Ed and Jeremy all together, but wouldn't sit down with TM for any money, not a fucking masochist, and as for her predecessor I would make his face burn that swful shade of puce.

[HindleA]

Look again at my post,specifically "impression of".Salient point if engaged better to keep in same site,so participants see all,no asides to others.If T I would be fuming,the same way cut and paste goes from here to twitter.Note,I didn't say intentional but an inherent danger.I made this point when asked to enjoin and no doubt those who choose to misinterpretate will continue to do so.I stand by my point now as much as then,regardless.

[HindleA]

No offence taken.

[seeingclearly]

I love misinterpretate.

But the two sites have porous borders! bit like kipper/tory, no? Otherwise why was Tubby over there! No gigglers, except on real life stuff, no hit and run, no flouncers, no coordinated attacks as some believe.

The similarity between SH/TI posts with their final lines making same point exactly like many articles in papers, with the obligatory dig at Labour/Corbyn. But then offended by a post (or ammunition) elsewhere which they visited to find a way to destroy an argument by demolishing a persons online behaviour! They can dish stuff out but not take it?

Fuming? Tubbys style mostly laconic, jocular, provoking, until challenged then u-turn. He is well aware he does that. (If you were talking TE I think he is genuinely very upset, not about the forum, but about the thought of tories in perpetuity. I have similar concerns different conclusions.) Hugo also utterly provoking and definitely knows it, laughs behind his screen is my guess. If he suffers under this regime he hides it well.

Other posters and TE just themselves, but these two unfathomable.

But I probably offend, if so I am unapologetic. But friendly anyway. Life is simply too short not to be.

But the small birds are singing. Time to sleep.

[seeingclearly]

Also probably cooked my goose for frank analysis of things here. Nice mods could always ban me. Bloody troublemaking old skinbag.

[tinybgoat]

Too late to comment coherently, but Ftn geese seem quite resilient too cooking & may even have phoenix like qualities, also SeeingClearly's words good, wouldn't worry.

[HindleA]

Keep an exchange on one site seems sensible to me.Not porous to me,the sight of up until then behind the back multiple slaggings off of self but more importantly to me of others here,their excuses as to why notwithstanding,a freedom.to slag off unabatdeded eagerly,indeed in gossiply giggly terms,taken by some,will,I am.afraid will always leave a bad taste in the mouth as did the I can't post except to say you are all shit thing,thankfully abated.

[seeingclearly]

Tbf that happened on both sites. I copped some of it here for nothing whatsoever but a four month decidedly non flouncing absence, flouncing would in fact have been a luxury activity, bows on head bands and lippy, with shiny tapdancing shoes. Tolerance and good humour had a holiday here. Reading the back posts in lieu of any kind of friendly face and total lack of conversation in temporary internment in privatised camp for elders felt like many old friends had gone forever. Another piece of my life lost. But the far slower longer attrition started much earlier. And the other site did not exist then at all. Twitter is for the birds, as far as I am concerned. The death of both public and private life.

[seeingclearly]

Have to say, never saw or read a word against you anywhere. Happy that is so, too.

[HindleA]

Oh good luck to it and bear no grudge to anybody,always welcome returnees.With respect behind the back got me,understand why,but still bemused as to how I was supposed to react to slaggings off etc.

[HindleA]

More of others

[seeingclearly]

If differences can't be resolved among people with same aim, same start place, many same interests, what hope for the world so how to stop trying? But all adult, no, and in fact a little disturbing when open discussion means people disappear and lurk instead of joining in. just trying to see things as multidimensional not polarised is a start, in a very fucked up world. ((( )))

[HindleA]

I'm words on a screen.Only one has met me as far as I know and has never fully recovered.

[seeingclearly]

Taking 'shut up' meds.

[HindleA]

Good night.