Wednesday 3rd May 2017

Post by **refitman** » Wed 03 May, 2017 7:10 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 May, 2017 7:25 am

Morning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39264631" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Town halls buy back Right-to-Buy homes

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 May, 2017 7:33 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... c-spending" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK needs £15bn in cuts or tax rises to clear deficit by 2022, says IFS
Tory austerity drive has made little difference to public spending as a share of national income, leading thinktank finds

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:05 am

Am sure seen, as on frontpage, but this is an interesting profile of Labour's campaign.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -into-gear" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Milne at the hub. Lavery at his right hand.

McDonnell and Abbott central.

Fisher drafting the manifesto. That could be interesting.

Richard Burgon one of the "strong all-round media performers on standby."

A crack team.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:11 am

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... c-spending

UK needs £15bn in cuts or tax rises to clear deficit by 2022, says IFS
Tory austerity drive has made little difference to public spending as a share of national income, leading thinktank finds

SpinningHugo wrote:Am sure seen, as on frontpage, but this is an interesting profile of Labour's campaign.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -into-gear" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Milne at the hub. Lavery at his right hand.

McDonnell and Abbott central.

Fisher drafting the manifesto. That could be interesting.

Richard Burgon one of the "strong all-round media performers on standby."

A crack team.

Chuckle....( despair )

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:22 am

Good morfternoon.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:33 am

Lost Soul wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... c-spending

UK needs £15bn in cuts or tax rises to clear deficit by 2022, says IFS
Tory austerity drive has made little difference to public spending as a share of national income, leading thinktank finds
SpinningHugo wrote:Am sure seen, as on frontpage, but this is an interesting profile of Labour's campaign.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -into-gear" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Milne at the hub. Lavery at his right hand.

McDonnell and Abbott central.

Fisher drafting the manifesto. That could be interesting.

Richard Burgon one of the "strong all-round media performers on standby."

A crack team.
Chuckle....( despair )

Yes. It is quite funny how despite the cuts, public spending overall hasn't fallen. That is because of fixed costs like pensions and interest rates.

It isn't really an answer (to that point) to say we should have been growing the economy. We should have, and fiscal policy should have been less tight while rates are at the zlb, but that would have led to public spending being an even higher share of national income. The Tories haven't shrunk the state as a share of spending, and I don't think any party ever will, it will grow and it just a matter of rate of growth. With the fixed costs that just means more painful cuts for the next decade of Tory government.

As for eliminating the deficit, with Brexit the chance of that is zero. Hammond has already been running a much looser fiscal policy and that will continue for the foreseeable future.

All funny really though, absolutely.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:37 am

"Snidey comments only reveal intention and character of perpetrator"

Confucius.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:46 am

Morning

Labour has some clear structural weaknesses in the leader's office - some of his own making. Some due to the party bureaucrats being obstructive and doing their best to undermine the leader (though by what right they feel they have to do this is beyond me)

As a party there are clearly cliques and 'camps' that do nothing to help us

Not all this is the fault of the leader though, although he clearly has to take his share of the blame - particularly around Milne.

However, we have some posters on here who come up with their snide and destructive comments about the party, with a consistent criticism of the leadership and nothing productive to add.

In a normal world the election campaign would have been considered to have started pretty well. We have some solid policy announcements - I thought McDonnell was good on Today this morning. Yes, Abbott made a presentational error yesterday but actually the point she was making was correct and the press reaction was massively overblown

Unfortunately, we are not in a normal world. We have a terrible PM but the media seems to be run from CCHQ - McDonnell raised the question why the BBC use Tory figures all the time in their reports (this was one of the things that got highlighted by the Cardiff Uni study). Also, look at the Kuenssberg twitter account. And that poster from the Tories this morning - are we in 1992 again?

Let us wait for the manifesto but I am tentatively optimistic that Labour policy direction seems to be heading in the right direction, compare and contrast to the appalling Tory plans for the future

Let the Tories explain how they will fund Brexit.....or how they will find the 15bn of cuts the IFS have identified.

The Tories are the ones who should be answering pointed questions on the economy - but they never seem to be asked

It is also a shame on here that we have people who claim to support Labour who keep coming with snide comments about the party and leadership......focus on the policies coming out rather than on the personalities

We had one (although he pretends to be a Green now) calling the leader 'dim' based on what I am not quite sure and there was a glee in the errors made by Abbott rather than disappointment and frustration.

Contrast what the Labour Party would do in Government compared to the Tories. We also know the Tory PM in useless based on her performance, some think the same of a Labour leader

Personally I would prefer a poor Labour PM (although I do not necessarily agree with that) implementing Labour policies rather than a poor Tory PM implementing Tory ones. I am not sure that all the people on here actually think May is poor or prefer Labour policies

There is a choice to be made, Labour or Tory, I know who I support and I support all Labour MPs in their quest for election - it is actually them that people vote for - not the leader so they have a key role to play (although we do have this quasi-presidential system in place now where the MP or policy seems secondary to the perception of the leader).

I hope those who spend all their time complaining about Corbyn on here are giving a different impression to those around them and are advocating support for Labour no matter who the MP or the leader is.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:50 am

Morning all.

Not sure whether we've had this before but it's long but worth reading.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 May, 2017 8:52 am

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exercise pill' could deliver benefits of fitness in tablet form

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:03 am

re-McDonnell on today.

He wasn't fighting this election but the next one, hence why he kept attacking the BBC.

The Today programme *is* dreadful though. I listen to radio 3 usually.

I think this on Corbyn's qualities is harsh but fair.

https://capx.co/where-does-corbyn-leave ... ft-voters/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are other options on the ballot paper other than Tory or Labour. I 'll choose the Green one.

If you object to that on the basis that the Greens have no hope of winning, well....

The Graun is reporting Labour as only having £7m to spend on this campaign. But it had $15m in 2015, and the membership has doubled hasn't it? Where has the money gone?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:11 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK food sector faces enormous challenges post-Brexit, say peers

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... t-agr-rpt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:13 am

Ask the NEC and the General Secretary where the money has gone

A link to someone else's opinion on 'why Corbyn is shit' really helps no-one does it? Let us link to a 'May is shit' article as well, or 'Farron is shit' etc. Also from a hack from a Murdoch-owned paper (the Times is not the Sun though to be fair but I had a friend on the board of News UK and he had some interesting insights on how it works there)

These op-eds are just someone's opinion not statements of fact

Choose Green if you want - your prerogative - I will let the true supporters of this party lament that fact

Any party should use an election campaign to set out their philosophy for the coming Parliament which clearly leads into the next election so that point is pretty obvious - what the state of the country will be in 2022 (or whenever the next election is - I think we have seen the 5 year fixed term is now probably dead) is anyone's guess

At the end though, even if you vote Green the PM will be either Corbyn or May - I know clearly where my preference is - based a bit on personality but more focused on policy. No Tory PM advocating their policies is acceptable. There must be a preference......this is the issue with FPTP and a quasi-Presidential system

I am still not sure whether you actually want a Labour PM or Tory PM

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:16 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Not sure whether we've had this before but it's long but worth reading.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think someone (NonOxCol?) mentioned it in passing, but I don't think we've had a link before. It's an interesting thread. It explores how the "strong and stable" theme could work. We can laugh at the obvious repetitive meme, but despite voters claiming to be sick of "long term economic plan" they went on to cite it as a reason for voting conservative in 2015.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:23 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
At the end though, even if you vote Green the PM will be either Corbyn or May - I know clearly where my preference is - based a bit on personality but more focused on policy. No Tory PM advocating their policies is acceptable. There must be a preference......this is the issue with FPTP and a quasi-Presidential system

I am still not sure whether you actually want a Labour PM or Tory PM

This is doubly wrong.

First "at the end" the PM will be May. The chance of Corbyn being PM is nil.

Second I said in response to you days ago that I'd prefer Corbyn as PM, for the reasons I gave.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:27 am

Willow904 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Not sure whether we've had this before but it's long but worth reading.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think someone (NonOxCol?) mentioned it in passing, but I don't think we've had a link before. It's an interesting thread. It explores how the "strong and stable" theme could work. We can laugh at the obvious repetitive meme, but despite voters claiming to be sick of "long term economic plan" they went on to cite it as a reason for voting conservative in 2015.

It clearly does work. All of us could say what the Tories' slogan in 2015 was. What was Labour's?

Who could state the pledges on the Edstone now (two years ago today)? I tried without googling and could only remember the 4th.

Post by **adam** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:35 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
The Graun is reporting Labour as only having £7m to spend on this campaign. But it had $15m in 2015, and the membership has doubled hasn't it? Where has the money gone?

They had five years to get ready for that one, they've had two years for this one. They've wasted money on an extra leadership contest, and they've been very involved in a national referendum - I'm guessing completely about the last, but my guess is that they invested a lot more in EU than they did in PR or ScotsIndie.

Also you're being a bit naughty in using £ and $. $15m in 2015 was about £10m.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:37 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
At the end though, even if you vote Green the PM will be either Corbyn or May - I know clearly where my preference is - based a bit on personality but more focused on policy. No Tory PM advocating their policies is acceptable. There must be a preference......this is the issue with FPTP and a quasi-Presidential system

I am still not sure whether you actually want a Labour PM or Tory PM
This is doubly wrong.

First "at the end" the PM will be May. The chance of Corbyn being PM is nil.

Second I said in response to you days ago that I'd prefer Corbyn as PM, for the reasons I gave.

The most probable likelihood at the moment is that May will be PM - the chance of Corbyn being so is less but not nil

The aim is to get as many Labour MPs and bloody May's nose a bit and not make this a walk in the park for her......actually the Tory campaign gives us lots of opportunity as it is so bad and focusing on May may bring some problems in the coming long 5 weeks

If Labour supporters focus internally and spend the election campaign criticising the leadership then those chances will be reduced considerably and the outcome post-election all the more poisonous for it

If you prefer Corbyn as PM then you go a very strange way of showing it....and, you will not be surprised, I doubt your honesty

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:39 am

adam wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
The Graun is reporting Labour as only having £7m to spend on this campaign. But it had $15m in 2015, and the membership has doubled hasn't it? Where has the money gone?
They had five years to get ready for that one, they've had two years for this one. They've wasted money on an extra leadership contest, and they've been very involved in a national referendum - I'm guessing completely about the last, but my guess is that they invested a lot more in EU than they did in PR or ScotsIndie.

Also you're being a bit naughty in using £ and $. $15m in 2015 was about £10m.

I remember seeing that Labour as a party spent millions on the EU campaign...much more than the Tories....can't remember the numbers but is was a real eye opener

Just added

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i ... commission" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

much, much more spent by Labour

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:44 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
At the end though, even if you vote Green the PM will be either Corbyn or May - I know clearly where my preference is - based a bit on personality but more focused on policy. No Tory PM advocating their policies is acceptable. There must be a preference......this is the issue with FPTP and a quasi-Presidential system

I am still not sure whether you actually want a Labour PM or Tory PM
This is doubly wrong.

First "at the end" the PM will be May. The chance of Corbyn being PM is nil.

Second I said in response to you days ago that I'd prefer Corbyn as PM, for the reasons I gave.

The most probable likelihood at the moment is that May will be PM - the chance of Corbyn being so is less but not nil

The aim is to get as many Labour MPs and bloody May's nose a bit and not make this a walk in the park for her......actually the Tory campaign gives us lots of opportunity as it is so bad and focusing on May may bring some problems in the coming long 5 weeks

If Labour supporters focus internally and spend the election campaign criticising the leadership then those chances will be reduced considerably and the outcome post-election all the more poisonous for it

If you prefer Corbyn as PM then you go a very strange way of showing it....and, you will not be surprised, I doubt your honesty

1. Well, these things are a matter of judgement. Mine is that Corbyn's chance of being PM is as close to zero as makes no difference.

2. For the longterm future of the left, I doubt it would be helpful for Labour to do reasonably well. For two reasons

i) Corbyn must be removed if the left is to recover. If he (and McDonnell, Abbott, Milne, Fisher et al) were able to cling on post the election that would be a disaster for British politics. We need an opposition and we won't have one until Corbyn goes.

ii) We need some kind of restructuring on the left. I strongly agree with David Runciman

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... st-bow-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the decaying tree needs to be felled. Desperately trying to keep it alive is worse than pointless, it is counterproductive.

3. Blair's view that we need anti-Brexit MPs in Parliament is right, but Labour has proven itself to be on precisely the same side as May with regard to Brexit, so I'll vote for a party that opposes it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:46 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
adam wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
The Graun is reporting Labour as only having £7m to spend on this campaign. But it had $15m in 2015, and the membership has doubled hasn't it? Where has the money gone?
They had five years to get ready for that one, they've had two years for this one. They've wasted money on an extra leadership contest, and they've been very involved in a national referendum - I'm guessing completely about the last, but my guess is that they invested a lot more in EU than they did in PR or ScotsIndie.

Also you're being a bit naughty in using £ and $. $15m in 2015 was about £10m.

I remember seeing that Labour as a party spent millions on the EU campaign...much more than the Tories....can't remember the numbers but is was a real eye opener

Just added

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i ... commission" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

much, much more spent by Labour

It was a typo. It was £12m.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:51 am

1. It is not just about winning the election it is about as many MPs winning their individual seats just as much and so countering lies and untruths about policy and the leadership is part of that....including the comparison with the crap PM we have

2. You are not part of any left I recognise and if it was a focus on policy rather than a pseudo-presidential election Labour would be in a better position. Policies are what affect people not if the PM wears a dodgy suit - pity they don't seem to realise it

3. Labour are not on the same side as May......

Post by **adam** » Wed 03 May, 2017 9:58 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
2. For the longterm future of the left, I doubt it would be helpful for Labour to do reasonably well. For two reasons

i) Corbyn must be removed if the left is to recover. If he (and McDonnell, Abbott, Milne, Fisher et al) were able to cling on post the election that would be a disaster for British politics. We need an opposition and we won't have one until Corbyn goes.

The worse Labour do in the election, the easier it will be for the left to achieve the 15% of MPs required for nomination - even if he goes, the worse labour do, the more likely the party in the country will have the opportunity to elect a broadly fellow-travelling successor

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:00 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:1. It is not just about winning the election it is about as many MPs winning their individual seats just as much and so countering lies and untruths about policy and the leadership is part of that....including the comparison with the crap PM we have

2. You are not part of any left I recognise and if it was a focus on policy rather than a pseudo-presidential election Labour would be in a better position. Policies are what affect people not if the PM wears a dodgy suit - pity they don't seem to realise it

3. Labour are not on the same side as May......

1. I've explained why I think it would be counterproductive for Labour to do reasonably well. I know why someone who supports Corbyn feels differently, perfectly understandable. I don't want the former chair of Stop the War as Leader of the Opposition.

2. Again, I could list off the long set of reasons why that isn't so. Even today, I've said that we should have been running a much looser fiscal policy for the last 7+ years, which is hardly a Tory position.

3. When it came to voting, which is what matters, Labour was and is. With 52 honourable exceptions. Sadly, I don't live in the constituency of one of those. So, I'll vote instead for a party that opposed Brexit without conditions.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:07 am

1. That is up to you......

2. You are not of any left that I recognise

3. Simplistic

Look you philosophically are a right winger as can be seen in most of the positions you take

The members will decide the leader not you

Post by **adam** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:18 am

On the EU - at the moment the government and press are very effectively playing the idea of the UK's financial commitments as being a fee to leave, or as maintenance or a divorce settlement, dividing up assets. This is nonsense - what's being discussed is the UK's existing and lasting commitments to specific EU budget issues over the coming years. Barnier has just said this in his press conference but it will be misrepresented again. It's more than it might have been for us because Cameron 'successfully' kicked some of our budget contributions a few years down the line as part of one of his successful negotiations with the EU (no doubt imagining - correctly as it happens - that he would be out of power and somebody else would have to deal with it).

Post by **adam** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:20 am

Also from Barnier-

He says any rights offered to EU citizens will have to be enforceable by the European court of justice. Otherwise the rights will be illusionary, he says.

That'll go down well.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:23 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can’t just cut and run from Europe, Theresa May – it’s illegal
Helena Kennedy

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:27 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Look you philosophically are a right winger as can be seen in most of the positions you take

The members will decide the leader not you

I think those points are related.

That you deny that I am leftwing (despite my favouring larger deficits, more public spending, comprehensive school education, much more redistribution, freedom of movement, a state provided health service etc) and think a dull fairly nerdy soft left person like me is a Tory is part of the problem for the left, and in particular Labour members. It is why we have Corbyn, and may have him or an equivalent again.

The "left" on your definition is actually pretty small. What is needed is a progressive party like the German SPD. We need a party to appeal to the 48%. Instead we have a party with the support of 25(?)% or so, with much of that either tribal (AK) or reluctant (willow). Under a proportional system, Labour's support would collapse.

On every survey measure you like, I am leftwing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:33 am

You know fuck all about members beyond your own imagination and the mutual reinforcement binary nonsense.To be fair,heartedly sick of "the members' view" wherever it comes from,I'm not a L number I am person.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:37 am

All current parties would collapse under PR to a lesser or greater extent

Good!

The British political system is rotten at the core but the electorate only want to moan...never take a radical approach to solving it

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:38 am

SpinningHugo wrote:re-McDonnell on today.

He wasn't fighting this election but the next one, hence why he kept attacking the BBC.

The Today programme *is* dreadful though. I listen to radio 3 usually.

I think this on Corbyn's qualities is harsh but fair.

https://capx.co/where-does-corbyn-leave ... ft-voters/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are other options on the ballot paper other than Tory or Labour. I 'll choose the Green one.

If you object to that on the basis that the Greens have no hope of winning, well....

The Graun is reporting Labour as only having £7m to spend on this campaign. But it had $15m in 2015, and the membership has doubled hasn't it? Where has the money gone?

A quite considerable amount was spent on paying off the debts accumulated by blairite cunts like you.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:38 am

HindleA wrote:You know fuck all about members beyond your own imagination and the mutual reinforcement binary nonsense.To be fair,heartedly sick of "the members' view" wherever it comes from,I'm not a L number I am person.

Was that aimed at me?

Hope not...apologies Mr A for whatever has offended

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 10:53 am

Anyway back to policy

Labour has a challenge to reverse these years of Tory tax cutting whilst destroying public services and sucking out growth

Seems a level of incompetence seldom, if ever seen before.

So what should be on the table

I will start - radically knowing a lot isn't possible

Property taxes....CGT on house sales with reductions or exceptions for certain cases.

Inheritance tax.....should aim to hit at least 50% of estates with focus on unearned property sale wealth. A well designed framework to encourage certain things

Income tax reform.....the idea to take a lot of people out of contributing looks good but benefits actually poorly targeted. Look at a long term review of income taxes. A
Here for example most people fill in a tax declaration at the end of the year which is a bit of work but actually works well and is retrospective so a sliding scale rathet than bands is used

Visibility of hidden taxes....VAT is exclude from price as per US....makes it obvious that everyone contributes

Corporate taxation.....obviously difficult in globalised world and post Brexit.....

This should bring in some extra cash that could be used to reverse some of the pernicious cuts

Also, on efficiency of spend (a Tory favourite) how about a detailed review of the economies made by outsourcing public services to private sector. Should look at overall cost to economy rather than just the reduced spend for the contract. Look at job impact, tax take impact and where the profits end up.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:03 am

HindleA wrote:You know fuck all about members beyond your own imagination and the mutual reinforcement binary nonsense.To be fair,heartedly sick of "the members' view" wherever it comes from,I'm not a L number I am person.

I doubt that is plausibly true as I was a member for decades.

Of course not ll members are the same. Some of us voted for Liz Kendall (though very few of those remain).

But, Corbyn won overwhelming victories twice, the second time after a year of members seeing what it was like and after the EU referendum debacle. I think that allows some generalisations to be made. I wouldn't want to generalise from just my CLP for example.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:05 am

Temulkar wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:re-McDonnell on today.

He wasn't fighting this election but the next one, hence why he kept attacking the BBC.

The Today programme *is* dreadful though. I listen to radio 3 usually.

I think this on Corbyn's qualities is harsh but fair.

https://capx.co/where-does-corbyn-leave ... ft-voters/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are other options on the ballot paper other than Tory or Labour. I 'll choose the Green one.

If you object to that on the basis that the Greens have no hope of winning, well....

The Graun is reporting Labour as only having £7m to spend on this campaign. But it had $15m in 2015, and the membership has doubled hasn't it? Where has the money gone?
A quite considerable amount was spent on paying off the debts accumulated by blairite cunts like you.

I thought Labour policy was in favour of greater deficit financing?

This "cunt" paid in for decades (at full rate). I don't remember personally taking much out.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:06 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Not sure whether we've had this before but it's long but worth reading.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Morning.

Recommended it over the weekend but couldn't link from where I was. (He's changed his handle since Saturday; it was previously 'Stabledoor Metaphor')

I think it's the most convincing answer I've seen to the question of why she is so apparently popular. Sadly, critical thinking doesn't come into it. Nor does the notion that things certain generations took for granted aren't guaranteed in perpetuity. That includes my generation, by the way, not just 'boomers'. As for those under 35 getting more exercised by 'mansion tax' and IHT than the multitude of other rip-offs, words fail me.

With the media the way it is, that won't get any better any time soon either. I literally wanted to smash the TV set when I caught some of her election broadcast yesterday. The idea that there are millions of others cheering her on made me want to vomit.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:10 am

CON: 47% (-2)
LAB: 30% (+3)
LDEM: 10% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-)
GRN: 2% (-1)

(via @PanelbaseMD / 28 Apr - 02 May)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:14 am

I think Tem was talking about the dire state of Labour Party finances before the influx of cash from Labour members

If Corbyn wasn't leader would the party still be solvent?

Shame those same members are treated so badly and insulted by those whose wages are paid by them

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:16 am

NonOxCol wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Not sure whether we've had this before but it's long but worth reading.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Morning.

Recommended it over the weekend but couldn't link from where I was. (He's changed his handle since Saturday; it was previously 'Stabledoor Metaphor')

I think it's the most convincing answer I've seen to the question of why she is so apparently popular. Sadly, critical thinking doesn't come into it. Nor does the notion that things certain generations took for granted aren't guaranteed in perpetuity. That includes my generation, by the way, not just 'boomers'. As for those under 35 getting more exercised by 'mansion tax' and IHT than the multitude of other rip-offs, words fail me.

With the media the way it is, that won't get any better any time soon either. I literally wanted to smash the TV set when I caught some of her election broadcast yesterday. The idea that there are millions of others cheering her on made me want to vomit.

Would a video of some Bristolians booing Theresa May cheer you up at all?

[youtube]XhesL_SVoHA[/youtube]

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:19 am

The Mirror chicken was there and everything:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/p ... a-10342884" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Protesters yell 'Tory scum!' as Theresa May surrounds herself with party activists AGAIN at general election event

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:43 am

I can't turn the sound on, but the comments below suggest this is worth posting:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:49 am

SpinningHugo wrote:CON: 47% (-2)
LAB: 30% (+3)
LDEM: 10% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-)
GRN: 2% (-1)

(via @PanelbaseMD / 28 Apr - 02 May)

Another poll with Labour on 30%, then.

Of course its still a huge Tory lead and barring some unforseen miracle they will be returned to power next month. But there is still much to play for.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:54 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:CON: 47% (-2)
LAB: 30% (+3)
LDEM: 10% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-)
GRN: 2% (-1)

(via @PanelbaseMD / 28 Apr - 02 May)
Another poll with Labour on 30%, then.

Of course its still a huge Tory lead and barring some unforseen miracle they will be returned to power next month. But there is still much to play for.

Yes. I think that is too high. If Labour under Corbyn polls as well as Labour under Miliband I'd be surprised. Something like 28% seems more likely to me.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:57 am

I thought "too high" there was referring to the Tory figure - I suspect 45% will be tough for them to achieve on the day.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Wed 03 May, 2017 11:59 am

Finally some stronger economic arguments from Labour:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ng-pledges

McDonnell criticised the advert and the way it had been reported. “In common parlance people would call what the Tories have published today lies,” he said. “I’m shocked that the BBC has just taken a Conservative press release and has repeated it all morning. You’re the BBC, you have to have some form of analysis before you put something on air.”

He said the supposed £45bn gap included £35bn of capital spending: “I’m amazed the chancellor of the exchequer can’t distinguish between capital and revenue spend. Capital spend does not come out in terms of individual revenue spend. It is just the cost of the borrowing that comes out.“

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 May, 2017 12:04 pm

Calling out the BBC is arguably even better

I see that yesterday's thread concluded with one of Kuennservativeberg's most egregious and shameless Twitter fibs yet.

She is being slaughtered, absolutely slaughtered, for it in the comments underneath - several taking pains to point out "I'm no Corbyn fan, but....."

Are at least some people finally waking up?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 May, 2017 12:14 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I thought "too high" there was referring to the Tory figure - I suspect 45% will be tough for them to achieve on the day.

17 points is a return to around the levels we saw before the election was called.

The bigger worry for Labour is the polls being wrong again because of the terrible answers to the "leader" and "economy" questions. But I suppose the polling companies have made even bigger moves to try and correct for that.

Dan Hodges (I know) asks a good question when he says he wants to know why Labour's headline number is the same as in 2015 in the light of the doorstep being more negative. I suspect there must be a fair number voting reluctantly because they dont want a huge Tory majority (ie people a bit like me).

The whole election feels weird to me. Phoney.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 May, 2017 12:16 pm

Let's also remember that most pollsters made their methodologies significantly more pro-Tory following the last GE, in response to their supposed failings then.

This may prove justified now, or it could turn out to have been an example of "fighting the last war".