Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st May 2017
Posted: Sat 20 May, 2017 8:34 am
Morning all.
I didn't necessarily think it was the best policy when the Libdems first came out with it, primarily because there wasn't the funding to do it properly and was only aimed at infant children, which felt more like an eye-catching gesture than a proper, substantive policy.The celebrity chef and healthy eating campaigner, Jamie Oliver, has attacked the Conservatives over their plans to end free lunches for some of the youngest primary school children.
Yes.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those outrageous Tory internet proposals - though they are, again, totally unworkable - are potentially something a number of younger voters could be mobilised against.
Two and a bit days to get people registered......
I made a similar point btl at the G and had a response that suggested the council would put a charging order on the house, which sounds like aggressive debt recovery to me, rather than a sensible plan to fund elderly social care. They said it's already done now, presumably when someone going into residential care has a partner still living at home. Although I'm pretty certain it doesn't happen in all council areas. There was a case of an MP whose mother-in-law gave him and his wife her house and she didn't then have to pay for residential care and apparently that was fine. This new policy is simply going to extend the random unfairness of it all to people needing care at home.gilsey wrote:Typical tory manifesto, unravels in record time when you start looking in to it.
I can't see how the 'dementia tax' could work? If you have to get the money with an equity release plan, there's no way I can see that you can draw the £100k line, because the plan charges will continue until it's repaid after death, even if the council's picking up the actual care costs. Or is the plan that the taxpayer will have to pay the charges as well? Lovely.
gilsey wrote:Yes.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those outrageous Tory internet proposals - though they are, again, totally unworkable - are potentially something a number of younger voters could be mobilised against.
Two and a bit days to get people registered......
It's impossible to imagine Osborne agreeing to a manifesto like this, isn't it. How to piss off your natural supporters and motivate the young to vote, in one easy lesson.
I prefer Starmer's straightforward matter-of-factness to the usual politician's spin, but I don't think he's going to win over any Corbyn fans with this interview, where he lays out the reality Labour are potentially facing pretty starkly.Labour's 2015 election result is no yardstick for success, says Starmer
Shadow Brexit secretary says it would not be enough to top Miliband’s 30.4% of vote if Tories significantly increase majority
Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ys-starmerI prefer Starmer's straightforward matter-of-factness to the usual politician's spin, but I don't think he's going to win over any Corbyn fans with this interview, where he lays out the reality Labour are potentially facing pretty starkly.Labour's 2015 election result is no yardstick for success, says Starmer
Shadow Brexit secretary says it would not be enough to top Miliband’s 30.4% of vote if Tories significantly increase majority
That's what I assumed initially, but I don't think that's what they have in mind, did you see what ephe tweeted yesterday, later picked up be Barry Gardiner.Willow904 wrote:I made a similar point btl at the G and had a response that suggested the council would put a charging order on the house, which sounds like aggressive debt recovery to me, rather than a sensible plan to fund elderly social care. They said it's already done now, presumably when someone going into residential care has a partner still living at home. Although I'm pretty certain it doesn't happen in all council areas. There was a case of an MP whose mother-in-law gave him and his wife her house and she didn't then have to pay for residential care and apparently that was fine. This new policy is simply going to extend the random unfairness of it all to people needing care at home.gilsey wrote:Typical tory manifesto, unravels in record time when you start looking in to it.
I can't see how the 'dementia tax' could work? If you have to get the money with an equity release plan, there's no way I can see that you can draw the £100k line, because the plan charges will continue until it's repaid after death, even if the council's picking up the actual care costs. Or is the plan that the taxpayer will have to pay the charges as well? Lovely.
It's often done now, in the interim while the house is being sold after someone's gone into residential care.Willow904 wrote:I made a similar point btl at the G and had a response that suggested the council would put a charging order on the house, which sounds like aggressive debt recovery to me, rather than a sensible plan to fund elderly social care. They said it's already done now, presumably when someone going into residential care has a partner still living at home. Although I'm pretty certain it doesn't happen in all council areas. There was a case of an MP whose mother-in-law gave him and his wife her house and she didn't then have to pay for residential care and apparently that was fine. This new policy is simply going to extend the random unfairness of it all to people needing care at home.gilsey wrote:Typical tory manifesto, unravels in record time when you start looking in to it.
I can't see how the 'dementia tax' could work? If you have to get the money with an equity release plan, there's no way I can see that you can draw the £100k line, because the plan charges will continue until it's repaid after death, even if the council's picking up the actual care costs. Or is the plan that the taxpayer will have to pay the charges as well? Lovely.
It's not the despair that kills you, it's the hope.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, the Tories think they can propose whatever they like and still win a landslide. The point is, what if they are wrong?
Exactly. Dilnot was charged with coming up with recommendations to end the uncertainty now facing those going into residential care. The Tories have, instead, decided to extend that uncertainty to those receiving social care at home.HindleA wrote:That didn't last long,after convincing myself why I should l leave and rather good exit,if I do say so myself,I've convinced myself it was exactly the wrong thing to do so "Frank" is back.Of course I was correct both times.
To treat home care the same is exactly the opposite what needs to be done and I would say insane.Think vast cost saving association,loathe to ask for support as it is,before you get to independent enhancing and health benefits.Granted there are costs in keeping the inconvenient alive longer than otherwise.Consistent with the only possible housing support for home owners being a repayable interest bearing loan,largely aimed at the severely sick/disabled,given it was time limited in anycase elsewise.
Very concerning.gilsey wrote:That's what I assumed initially, but I don't think that's what they have in mind, did you see what ephe tweeted yesterday, later picked up be Barry Gardiner.Willow904 wrote:I made a similar point btl at the G and had a response that suggested the council would put a charging order on the house, which sounds like aggressive debt recovery to me, rather than a sensible plan to fund elderly social care. They said it's already done now, presumably when someone going into residential care has a partner still living at home. Although I'm pretty certain it doesn't happen in all council areas. There was a case of an MP whose mother-in-law gave him and his wife her house and she didn't then have to pay for residential care and apparently that was fine. This new policy is simply going to extend the random unfairness of it all to people needing care at home.gilsey wrote:Typical tory manifesto, unravels in record time when you start looking in to it.
I can't see how the 'dementia tax' could work? If you have to get the money with an equity release plan, there's no way I can see that you can draw the £100k line, because the plan charges will continue until it's repaid after death, even if the council's picking up the actual care costs. Or is the plan that the taxpayer will have to pay the charges as well? Lovely.
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Well, howdy partnerHindleA wrote:That didn't last long,after convincing myself why I should l leave and rather good exit,if I do say so myself,I've convinced myself it was exactly the wrong thing to do so "Frank" is back.Of course I was correct both times.
To treat home care the same is exactly the opposite what needs to be done and I would say insane.Think vast cost saving association,loathe to ask for support as it is,before you get to independent enhancing and health benefits.Granted there are costs in keeping the inconvenient alive longer than otherwise.Consistent with the only possible housing support for home owners being a repayable interest bearing loan,largely aimed at the severely sick/disabled,given it was time limited in anycase elsewise.
Vote share is an utter irrelevance, it is how you do relative to the opposition that matters. The death of UKIP has put about 15 points in play, the Tories have 12 of them, Labour a couple. That means to win again Labour needs Tory switchers, this wasn't true in 2015, it is now. That group of voters is simply beyond Corbyn and the Tories are still on course for their biggest win since the 1920s.AnatolyKasparov wrote:And I see some wriggle room in that from Starmer - as in what actually constitutes a "substantially" increased majority?
Come to think of it, if Labour increased their share significantly (eg to 33-34%, not much less than their last victorious election in 2005) then I expect Jez could make a good case for staying on for at least a while almost irrespective of how many seats the Tories win. Of course, this could make things very messy as far as internal Labour politics are concerned (again) which is a reason for hoping the result leaves little doubt there one way or the other.
Is there a tipping point?AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, the Tories think they can propose whatever they like and still win a landslide. The point is, what if they are wrong?
Do you think they are?AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, the Tories think they can propose whatever they like and still win a landslide. The point is, what if they are wrong?
As you like to say, we'll see.SpinningHugo wrote:Do you think they are?AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, the Tories think they can propose whatever they like and still win a landslide. The point is, what if they are wrong?
I don't.
[I don't think you do, either.]
Why is supporting a universal definition of genocide and applying that definition universally, without fear or favour, genocide denial?TechnicalEphemera wrote:Vote share is an utter irrelevance, it is how you do relative to the opposition that matters. The death of UKIP has put about 15 points in play, the Tories have 12 of them, Labour a couple. That means to win again Labour needs Tory switchers, this wasn't true in 2015, it is now. That group of voters is simply beyond Corbyn and the Tories are still on course for their biggest win since the 1920s.AnatolyKasparov wrote:And I see some wriggle room in that from Starmer - as in what actually constitutes a "substantially" increased majority?
Come to think of it, if Labour increased their share significantly (eg to 33-34%, not much less than their last victorious election in 2005) then I expect Jez could make a good case for staying on for at least a while almost irrespective of how many seats the Tories win. Of course, this could make things very messy as far as internal Labour politics are concerned (again) which is a reason for hoping the result leaves little doubt there one way or the other.
May has clearly decided Cameron's screw the young to cosset the wealthy pensioner Tory vote had economically run out of road. The Telegraph launching the IRA stuff yesterday suggests there is some nervousness as to whether the pensioners might rebel.
If the polls close significantly May might panic and row backwards, she badly needs that landslide, vote suppression and boundaries fixed for 2021/2 because Brexit is going to be a shit storm.
However the reality is it is hard to see many pensioners switching, they crave low inflation and economic stability more than inheritance. The gulf in economic trust is so massive they will mostly stay put and grumble a bit.
Comparing with 2005 is also daft. Back then the Lib Dems got 22%. With Ukips and the Lib Dems in a state of collapse, for Labour not to do any better is poor.TechnicalEphemera wrote:Vote share is an utter irrelevance, it is how you do relative to the opposition that matters. The death of UKIP has put about 15 points in play, the Tories have 12 of them, Labour a couple. That means to win again Labour needs Tory switchers, this wasn't true in 2015, it is now. That group of voters is simply beyond Corbyn and the Tories are still on course for their biggest win since the 1920s.AnatolyKasparov wrote:And I see some wriggle room in that from Starmer - as in what actually constitutes a "substantially" increased majority?
Come to think of it, if Labour increased their share significantly (eg to 33-34%, not much less than their last victorious election in 2005) then I expect Jez could make a good case for staying on for at least a while almost irrespective of how many seats the Tories win. Of course, this could make things very messy as far as internal Labour politics are concerned (again) which is a reason for hoping the result leaves little doubt there one way or the other.
May has clearly decided Cameron's screw the young to cosset the wealthy pensioner Tory vote had economically run out of road. The Telegraph launching the IRA stuff yesterday suggests there is some nervousness as to whether the pensioners might rebel.
If the polls close significantly May might panic and row backwards, she badly needs that landslide, vote suppression and boundaries fixed for 2021/2 because Brexit is going to be a shit storm.
However the reality is it is hard to see many pensioners switching, they crave low inflation and economic stability more than inheritance. The gulf in economic trust is so massive they will mostly stay put and grumble a bit.
AnatolyKasparov wrote:As you like to say, we'll see.SpinningHugo wrote:Do you think they are?AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, the Tories think they can propose whatever they like and still win a landslide. The point is, what if they are wrong?
I don't.
[I don't think you do, either.]
Some mildly interesting anecdotal evidence of some pensioners reacting unfavourably to the Tory manifesto proposals, though.....
The left has to win in *this* world, not some fantasy world we'd prefer to live in. Every newspaper apart from the Telegraph and Mail backed Labour in 2001.seeingclearly wrote:You mean the undoubted media bias, so overt that commentators from other nations are able to observe it and wonder where the famed British sense of fairness has gone. That you call " the usual excuse". Forgive me for saying so but these are very unusual times. We have a prime minister who is obscuring her horrid little party and running an election as though she is a presidential condidate. Also spending an absolute fortune, perhaps in an illegal way, but sod that because she'll fix it somehow so it "cannot be proved".
People in other nations have just cottoned on to the fact that WE are the forerunners of Trumptime America. I keep wondering why you would continue to undermine the opposition to this.
Blair got in when press was for him, So Corbyn shouldn't complain when press us against him?SpinningHugo wrote:The left has to win in *this* world, not some fantasy world we'd prefer to live in. Every newspaper apart from the Telegraph and Mail backed Labour in 2001.seeingclearly wrote:You mean the undoubted media bias, so overt that commentators from other nations are able to observe it and wonder where the famed British sense of fairness has gone. That you call " the usual excuse". Forgive me for saying so but these are very unusual times. We have a prime minister who is obscuring her horrid little party and running an election as though she is a presidential condidate. Also spending an absolute fortune, perhaps in an illegal way, but sod that because she'll fix it somehow so it "cannot be proved".
People in other nations have just cottoned on to the fact that WE are the forerunners of Trumptime America. I keep wondering why you would continue to undermine the opposition to this.
The left at the moment looks utterly ridiculous, blaming Laura Kuenessberg for its own failings.
"It is all so unfair, Theresa May called an election." Pitiable.
Wedon't even have a serious opposition, and no prospect of one.
The press did not magically decide to back Blair. They swapped sides when it became clear that Blair was going to win. The hard work was done by Blair, Brown (and previously Smith and Kinnock) and a huge team of competent focussed people.tinybgoat wrote:Blair got in when press was for him, So Corbyn shouldn't complain when press us against him?SpinningHugo wrote:The left has to win in *this* world, not some fantasy world we'd prefer to live in. Every newspaper apart from the Telegraph and Mail backed Labour in 2001.seeingclearly wrote:You mean the undoubted media bias, so overt that commentators from other nations are able to observe it and wonder where the famed British sense of fairness has gone. That you call " the usual excuse". Forgive me for saying so but these are very unusual times. We have a prime minister who is obscuring her horrid little party and running an election as though she is a presidential condidate. Also spending an absolute fortune, perhaps in an illegal way, but sod that because she'll fix it somehow so it "cannot be proved".
People in other nations have just cottoned on to the fact that WE are the forerunners of Trumptime America. I keep wondering why you would continue to undermine the opposition to this.
The left at the moment looks utterly ridiculous, blaming Laura Kuenessberg for its own failings.
"It is all so unfair, Theresa May called an election." Pitiable.
Wedon't even have a serious opposition, and no prospect of one.
Trouble is it's not the real world. We live in a media manipulated, twisted fantasy representation of the real world and in that world it's hard for Labour to win.
The real world has increasing homelessness, persecution of those in need, people having to turn to foodbanks (or in fact as part of gvt. policy).
The fantasy world allows May's "many complex reasons" for these things & crap along the lines of Corbyn being unsuitable for Leadership coz he's weak, talks to terrorists, doesn't wear ties etc.
Utter Bollocks'.
I have seen no evidence of that at all. "This" world as you put it is not on an inevitable path. Reality is mutable. In fact, despite the media intransigence Labour has come out fighting. I have not seen one single instwnce of the "pitiable" stuff you seem so sure of. Instead I see nurses, doctors, scientists, students, old people and young wanting and hoping for something a lot better that the reality May wants to give us. And plenty of evidence that she is not as personally popular as the press would make her out to be. Her oolicies, such as they are do not convince either.SpinningHugo wrote:The left has to win in *this* world, not some fantasy world we'd prefer to live in. Every newspaper apart from the Telegraph and Mail backed Labour in 2001.seeingclearly wrote:You mean the undoubted media bias, so overt that commentators from other nations are able to observe it and wonder where the famed British sense of fairness has gone. That you call " the usual excuse". Forgive me for saying so but these are very unusual times. We have a prime minister who is obscuring her horrid little party and running an election as though she is a presidential condidate. Also spending an absolute fortune, perhaps in an illegal way, but sod that because she'll fix it somehow so it "cannot be proved".
People in other nations have just cottoned on to the fact that WE are the forerunners of Trumptime America. I keep wondering why you would continue to undermine the opposition to this.
The left at the moment looks utterly ridiculous, blaming Laura Kuenessberg for its own failings.
"It is all so unfair, Theresa May called an election." Pitiable.
Wedon't even have a serious opposition, and no prospect of one.
Temulkar wrote:http://evolvepolitics.com/general-elect ... n-england/
SpinningHugo wrote:Temulkar wrote:http://evolvepolitics.com/general-elect ... n-england/
"it is now entirely plausible the people who labelled Jeremy Corbyn as ‘unelectable’ may be in for a massive shock in the coming days and weeks."
See you on 9 June.
Credible and trusted by whom, TE. The media? The powerful? Bankers, vested interests? And what about the people? who are in fact dying unneccessarily in increasing numbers, quietly and humbly, often behind curtains, and singularly not cared for or about by the likes of Blair. Who sold out where they are concerned, and now undermines efforts to reduce their misery. i will admit times were better under his Labour, I benefitted myself from the change. But it will not do now. As for the economy are you saying Cameron and co.and their heirs have NOT damaged the economy? And that is the least of the damage they have done, they have damaged the fabric of our society, and its very existence in a way that will take decades to recover from. Working out how to win means getting behind Labour.TechnicalEphemera wrote:
The press did not magically decide to back Blair. They swapped sides when it became clear that Blair was going to win. The hard work was done by Blair, Brown (and previously Smith and Kinnock) and a huge team of competent focussed people.
It helped that Major screwed up the economy, but that only worked because Labour had worked hard to be credible and trusted on it.
Hugo is right in at least this, stop bleating and work out how to win, otherwise get used to decades of shit Tory governments.
Truly dumb, but as that is under 10% of the cost to government finances of Brexit (ie we ignore all the other costs), vote for a party that holds out the hope of avoiding Hard Brexit is my advice.howsillyofme1 wrote:Any Greens (or pretend ones) on here who would like to comment
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[bleat]It's unproven(and hard to prove) how much influence media has on elections, there's only been 3 Labour leaders who've won elections so it seems a bit woolly pointing out Blair won, having a good press, whilst ignoring all the labour leaders who've lost with a bad press & dismissing press bias as just being a winge.TechnicalEphemera wrote: The press did not magically decide to back Blair. They swapped sides when it became clear that Blair was going to win. The hard work was done by Blair, Brown (and previously Smith and Kinnock) and a huge team of competent focussed people.
It helped that Major screwed up the economy, but that only worked because Labour had worked hard to be credible and trusted on it.
Hugo is right in at least this, stop bleating and work out how to win, otherwise get used to decades of shit Tory governments.