Saturday 3rd and Sunday 4th June 2017

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 8:18 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 8:31 am

Senior Conservatives have said there are "no plans" to raise income tax if the party wins the general election, in an apparent change of policy.

Sir Michael Fallon said high earners had nothing to worry about, while Boris Johnson said there were "absolutely no plans to raise income tax".

[However], Defence Secretary Sir Michael told the Daily Telegraph that income tax "absolutely" will not rise under a new Conservative government.

A Conservative Party spokesman said it was neither a pledge nor a promise (BBC News website - my emphasis)

Right. I see. So does that make it a definite aspiration?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40141470

Edited to tidy up (including a bracket-related error)

Post by **refitman** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 8:41 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Morning PF. Up early to watch the Lions match?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 8:48 am

refitman wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.
Morning PF. Up early to watch the Lions match?

Ha!

Post by **refitman** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 9:27 am

PorFavor wrote:
refitman wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.
Morning PF. Up early to watch the Lions match?
Ha!

You're probably best not. Dire match.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 10:06 am

https://amp.ft.com/content/6228fef2-479 ... 94ee97d996" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theresa May reaches out to business as Brexit tensions escalate
Prime minister denies rift with City and pledges to consult during Brussels talks

Basic gist of the article is that there's little business enthusiasm for a Tory hard Brexit or any kind of Brexit:

Business leaders have told the FT in recent weeks that they feel excluded from the Brexit decision-making process inside Number 10. “There is frustration and sadness that suddenly there is this huge gulf between business and the key decision makers,” an FTSE 100 chairman said this week.

Part of why Theresa May is doing so badly is because her plans for Brexit have so little support from those with money and influence who are most affected by Brexit. It may be popular with voters but is far less so with those who actually have to deal with the consequences.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 10:18 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Twitter thread from Faisal Islam.

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
·
26m

..indeed missed in tumult, JP Morgan chief foreign exchange strategist said Labour led hung parliament "might actually be sterling positive"

If you believe Labour only win when the rich and powerful want Labour to win, then this could be the best indication yet that May might be in trouble. May's popularity with anti-immigration leave voters could well prove to be insurmountable though, so I'm still doubtful Labour can win the seats necessary to force a hung parliament, but it's becoming clear that those on the left aren't the only ones who are keen to avoid a landslide and I'm starting to re-assess my instinct that May will stay in place during Brexit negotiations. Though who might be waiting in the wings to represent business interests has me scratching my head a little.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 11:18 am

Re the comment last night that "its clear from this programme that not enough people have watched Threads" - it doesn't help that the BBC took it off YouTube a few years ago

I have never understood this attitude tbh. Even if its only a small minority, *some* people will decide to get the relevant DVD or record after watching/listening to stuff there. Making things less easily available is really cutting off your nose to spite your face IMO.

Post by **adam** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 11:51 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re the comment last night that "its clear from this programme that not enough people have watched Threads" - it doesn't help that the BBC took it off YouTube a few years ago

I have never understood this attitude tbh. Even if its only a small minority, *some* people will decide to get the relevant DVD or record after watching/listening to stuff there. Making things less easily available is really cutting off your nose to spite your face IMO.

(whispers it's on vimeo)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 11:59 am

With Clanger amendments:

“I’ve been running a campaign which has been setting out the very clear choice the British people have and the very real challenges the Tory government ~~faces~~ has created over the ~~next five~~ last seven years,” she said.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:01 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:It’s an important of change for our country

I presume she didn't actually say *that* at least??

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:01 pm

@Willow904

Business leaders have told the FT in recent weeks that they feel excluded from the Brexit decision-making process inside Number 10. “There is frustration and sadness that suddenly there is this huge gulf between business and the key decision makers,” an FTSE 100 chairman said this week.

My head says that that might not be the way to go, but my heart says, "Tough."

If it were intended that workers\trades unions be involved, I'd probably feel differently.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:05 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re the comment last night that "its clear from this programme that not enough people have watched Threads" - it doesn't help that the BBC took it off YouTube a few years ago

I have never understood this attitude tbh. Even if its only a small minority, *some* people will decide to get the relevant DVD or record after watching/listening to stuff there. Making things less easily available is really cutting off your nose to spite your face IMO.

AK --wiping their site and archives for political reasons has been done before too, I'm sure I saw the link here a few days ago, but afraid that I forget who posted it --

http://www.welfareweekly.com/bbc-knew-a ... e-reforms/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"" “A multinational insurance company accused of racketeering and cheating thousands of Americans out of welfare benefits, is giving advice to the British government on welfare reform. A BBC investigation has found that executives from Unum have held meetings with senior Whitehall officials to discuss changes to the benefit system”…

The above quote was the introduction by BBC News anchor Hew Edwards for an exclusive BBC News report, transmitted on 6th November, 2007.

<b>Fortunately, some very wise researchers and activists downloaded the transcript of the report as, within a few short days, both the transcript and the BBC News video were inexplicably removed from the BBC News archives.</b>

Read more: Demolition of UK welfare state planned with corporate America

Quite whose authority was used to rapidly remove this BBC News investigation remains a mystery. Presumably, the New Labour government didn’t want reference to Unum Insurance and their many court cases to be permanently available, or the $multi-million fines they paid out in America for refusing to honour their Income Protection Insurance policies.""

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:05 pm

Sorry original post here (useless Clanger):

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May was also asked whether she was insulting the public’s intelligence “with stupid slogans?”

“I’ve been running a campaign which has been setting out the very clear choice the British people have and the very real challenges the government faces over the next five years,” she said. “It’s an important of change for our country, that choice is between a strong and stable leadership… or Jeremy Corbyn and a coalition of chaos.”

A simple "yes" would suffice.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:09 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Sorry original post here (useless Clanger):

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May was also asked whether she was insulting the public’s intelligence “with stupid slogans?”

“I’ve been running a campaign which has been setting out the very clear choice the British people have and the very real challenges the government faces over the next five years,” she said. “It’s an important of change for our country, that choice is between a strong and stable leadership… or Jeremy Corbyn and a coalition of chaos.”
A simple "yes" would suffice.

Shall I thank you again? Oh, alright then . . .

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:10 pm

PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

Business leaders have told the FT in recent weeks that they feel excluded from the Brexit decision-making process inside Number 10. “There is frustration and sadness that suddenly there is this huge gulf between business and the key decision makers,” an FTSE 100 chairman said this week.
My head says that that might not be the way to go, but my heart says, "Tough."

If it were intended that workers\trades unions be involved, I'd probably feel differently.

Talking of which, I have yet to see the usual letter from business leaders telling us to vote Tory. Might the above be a reason why that hasn't appeared?

Morning all BTW...

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

Business leaders have told the FT in recent weeks that they feel excluded from the Brexit decision-making process inside Number 10. “There is frustration and sadness that suddenly there is this huge gulf between business and the key decision makers,” an FTSE 100 chairman said this week.
My head says that that might not be the way to go, but my heart says, "Tough."

If it were intended that workers\trades unions be involved, I'd probably feel differently.

I don't really see how workers and unions benefit from leaving the single market/customs union any more than honest businesses and financial institutions. The Brexit winners are the dishonest exploitative businesses and financial institutions that benefit from funneling money to tax havens. I don't see it as a them/us as far as business and finance is concerned and the fact that those who simply want to trade with the EU in an honest fashion would prefer to pay Labour's higher corporation tax than deal with the fallout from a Tory hard Brexit reveals that. May is pursuing a Brexit for exploitative imperialists like Rees-Mogg, the hedge fund tendency and the predatory capitalists, not the regular business sector that has spent years building successful EU trade and relations, which is now facing all that work being upended into costly chaos.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:23 pm

This, from Iain Martin last night, caused a great deal of comment - quite a bit of the WTF? variety

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Martin‏Verified account
@iainmartin1
Follow
More
After this is over, major national re-education programme needed for young voters on money, tax, defence, life.

Um. Those haven't gone too well in other places if I recall correctly...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:24 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -of-crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Shortage of cash for teachers, and even books, will influence parents’ votes, YouGov survey finds

And as the Tories aren't going to "punish people for getting on" (increase taxes for top 5% or business) then there is no "perfectly rational supply of money" to fund plebs' schools.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:25 pm

And anyway genuinely educating the plebs might lead to problems for the current ~~bunch of idiots~~ ruling class further down the line.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:30 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 70686.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Have listened to this several times and can't work out what the first words are.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:31 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

Business leaders have told the FT in recent weeks that they feel excluded from the Brexit decision-making process inside Number 10. “There is frustration and sadness that suddenly there is this huge gulf between business and the key decision makers,” an FTSE 100 chairman said this week.
My head says that that might not be the way to go, but my heart says, "Tough."

If it were intended that workers\trades unions be involved, I'd probably feel differently.
Talking of which, I have yet to see the usual letter from business leaders telling us to vote Tory. Might the above be a reason why that hasn't appeared?

Morning all BTW...

I have suggested before that May could struggle to keep both her leave voting base and her remain supporting donors happy. However, a much higher proportion of Tory funding is coming from hedge funds these days as opposed to the traditional business sector and I suspect that in part is shaping Tory policy direction. A fundamental difference in interests between what Ed described as "predatory" and "productive" capitalism is starting to make itself felt, I suspect, and poses opportunities for more constructive alliances between business leaders and workers who share an interest in stable trading conditions as opposed to the kind of market volatility that hedge funds and City traders benefit from.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 12:46 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 70686.html
Have listened to this several times and can't work out what the first words are.

something like:
"he's never used a food bank,he's never been to a food bank" ?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:01 pm

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:14 pm

[quote="Willow904"

Business leaders have told the FT in recent weeks that they feel excluded from the Brexit decision-making process inside Number 10. “There is frustration and sadness that suddenly there is this huge gulf between business and the key decision makers,” an FTSE 100 chairman said this week.

I have suggested before that May could struggle to keep both her leave voting base and her remain supporting donors happy. However, a much higher proportion of Tory funding is coming from hedge funds these days as opposed to the traditional business sector and I suspect that in part is shaping Tory policy direction. A fundamental difference in interests between what Ed described as "predatory" and "productive" capitalism is starting to make itself felt, I suspect, and poses opportunities for more constructive alliances between business leaders and workers who share an interest in stable trading conditions as opposed to the kind of market volatility that hedge funds and City traders benefit from.[/quote][/quote]

Good point about the "predatory" and "productive" capitalism (and the hedge funds). However, many big businesses were, I thought, rather backward in coming forward on the perils of "Brexit" when it counted and are now realising that they might have outlived their usefulness to the Conservatives (who "follow the money") in terms of funding (which seems to be their main interest).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:14 pm

That went well.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:27 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:27 pm

PorFavor wrote:That went well.

What did (or not, possibly)?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:32 pm

PorFavor wrote:That went well.

Have BA stopped calling yet?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:34 pm

PorFavor wrote:That went well.

A little tip - try the "preview" button. A lot of my attempts at messing around with quotes start out looking like that, I'm just careful not to post them without road testing them first!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:That went well.
What did (or not, possibly)?

See:

The PF Guide to Online Quoting (2017) FTN Publishing Inc.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 1:36 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... bate-panel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However this vanity election ends, can any EU leader possibly look at Theresa May and conclude being worried about her negotiating prowess is something that will lose them sleep?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:06 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:That went well.
A little tip - try the "preview" button. A lot of my attempts at messing around with quotes start out looking like that, I'm just careful not to post them without road testing them first!

Thanks - however, I've lost the preview button and don't know:

a) where it's gone;
b) how to get it back.

A few weeks ago, it was there one minute and gone the next.

Oh - stop press! It's back! How odd. Thanks for the magic!

Nevertheless - edit (typo)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:16 pm

Re "Threads" -

I've just got round to looking it up. So it isn't a sequel to "The Rag Trade", then?

(In my defence, I went through a long period of not owning a TV set.)

(Also never actually seen "The Rag Trade" - I'm delighted to be able to say I was too young!)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:22 pm

WARNING: EXPRESS

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/812609 ... d-Miliband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'Labour always leave us with no money' IDS savages Corbyn's plan 'to turn UK into Greece'

Whereas of course Tory Brexit basketcase economy is 'kin booming.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:34 pm

WARNING PLUS APOLOGY: MORE EXPRESS

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/812597 ... na-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dr Marcus Papadopoulos, who runs PoliticsFirst, said that a post-Brexit Britain will become "pointless" in the world.
Contrary to hopes of a global, outward-looking Britain, the diplomatic expert warned that Brexit could see the country case [sic] adrift.
In an interview with Bloomberg Asset TV, Dr Papadopoulos warned that the EU are already persuading major companies to move factories from the UK to Europe.
This comes as Angela Merkel met both Indian and Chinese diplomats in the past week to push for EU trade deals with the two growing economies.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:37 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:WARNING: EXPRESS

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/812609 ... d-Miliband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'Labour always leave us with no money' IDS savages Corbyn's plan 'to turn UK into Greece'
Whereas of course Tory Brexit basketcase economy is 'kin booming.

WARNING FT

<b>Odd one out . How wages fell in the UK while the economy grew</b>

Between 2007 and 2015 .

But the UK did better than ... Greece . Quite an achievement .

https://www.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe6 ... 00c5664d30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:37 pm

http://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-b ... &r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One chart shows the huge mess Brexit is creating for UK banking

: brexit banks.jpg (86.71 KiB) Viewed 17907 times

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:40 pm

I wouldn't want to be the government that takes the UK out of the EU.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:44 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:WARNING PLUS APOLOGY: MORE EXPRESS

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/812597 ... na-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dr Marcus Papadopoulos, who runs PoliticsFirst, said that a post-Brexit Britain will become "pointless" in the world.
Contrary to hopes of a global, outward-looking Britain, the diplomatic expert warned that Brexit could see the country case adrift.
In an interview with Bloomberg Asset TV, Dr Papadopoulos warned that the EU are already persuading major companies to move factories from the UK to Europe.
This comes as Angela Merkel met both Indian and Chinese diplomats in the past week to push for EU trade deals with the two growing economies.

You're missing a [sic] . . . (penultimate word, second line of second para)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:46 pm

Rectified Cap'n Favor.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 2:48 pm

@tinyclanger2

Just thought I'd join in!

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 4:17 pm

Sky News today ran a ticker tape with the following:

Sky News is forecasting the Conservatives will win majority of between 90 & 110 seats compared with exit poll prediction of 60 seat majority.

(Significant losers)

Cons lose:

Liam Fox
Patrick McLoughlin
David Mundell
Karen Bradley
Greg Clark
Alun Cairns
Ken Clarke
Ben Gummer

Lab lose:

Diane Abbott
Harriet Harman
Keir Starmer
Rebecca Long -Bailey
Nia Griffith
Barry Gardiner
Teresa Pearce
Sarah Champion
Liz Kendall
Liam Byrne
Rosie Winterton

LD’s lose:

Tim Farron
Nick Clegg
Norman Lamb
Tom Brake

Others:

Simon Danczuk
Nigel Dodds
Paul Nuttall fails to win Boston & Skegness
Sophie Walker (WEP) fails to win in Shipley
Naomi Long fails to win Belfast East

Caroline Lucas holds Brighton Pavilion with decreased majority and made gains in Birmingham Hodge Hill & Belfast East but Molly Scott Cato fails to win Bristol West
Craig McKinlay keeps Thanet South with increased majority

It ran for 9 minutes then vanished off the screen !

Apologies for the photo but it's to show I wasn't having a 'moment'

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 4:22 pm

The broadcasting channels rehearse various "scenarios" for GEs, as for other forseeable major events.

Obviously wasn't meant to be actually shown, though

(oh, and some of those suggested results are rather more plausible than others)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 4:25 pm

Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 2m2 minutes ago
More
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 43% (-2)
LAB: 37% (+2)
LDEM: 6% (-1)
UKIP: 5% (-)
GRN: 2% (-)

(via @OpiniumResearch / 30 - 31 May)

So was +10, now +6

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 4:53 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The broadcasting channels rehearse various "scenarios" for GEs, as for other forseeable major events.

Obviously wasn't meant to be actually shown, though

(oh, and some of those suggested results are rather more plausible than others)

Quite but some of the names made me gasp

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 5:17 pm

Well the Liberals did win North Somerset in 1892, so I guess Liam Fox isn't completely safe

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 5:42 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:This, from Iain Martin last night, caused a great deal of comment - quite a bit of the WTF? variety

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Martin‏Verified account
@iainmartin1
Follow
More
After this is over, major national re-education programme needed for young voters on money, tax, defence, life.
Um. Those haven't gone too well in other places if I recall correctly...

Approved by Allison Pearson and JHB. Case closed.

Meanwhile, re Threads ('twas me who mentioned it, though many people on Twitter also did sonfor the same reason). Clips and talk alone scared the 11-year-old me, and I didn't watch it in full until around the 70th anniversary of Hiroshima. On Vimeo, as Adam mentioned.

For anyone approaching it for the first time, have a preliminary look at Peter Bradshaw's "The film that scared me most: Threads" from the 2014 Guardian, and the comments below. Or watch "The War Game" and "QED: How to Survive Armageddon" (both on YouTube). Don't go in unprepared.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 5:44 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:This, from Iain Martin last night, caused a great deal of comment - quite a bit of the WTF? variety

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Martin‏Verified account
@iainmartin1
Follow
More
After this is over, major national re-education programme needed for young voters on money, tax, defence, life.
Um. Those haven't gone too well in other places if I recall correctly...
Approved by Allison Pearson and JHB. Case closed.

You forgot Toby Young (wish we all could, forever

)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 03 Jun, 2017 6:59 pm

https://www.varsity.co.uk/science/13052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sci-revoir post BREXIT?
18 UK universities face funding cuts in excess of 50%. Who will fund Science and Research? Varsity spoke to the Labour and Lib Dem. candidates to find out.