Saturday 10th & Sunday 11th June 2017

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 12:28 pm

NonOxCol wrote:JHB gets schooled by - the horror! - actual voters on her ludicrous and sadly not unique view that combined support for Labour and the Tories = 80% plus support for hard Brexit.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She also spoke of an "overwhelming mandate" in the referendum for HER (hard) version of Brexit. Actually it was less than 52% for an almost totally non-defined version.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 12:35 pm

Possibly my second favourite Twitter thread of the weekend (after @jackbern23's analysis of Northern Ireland):

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apparently, a dose of mild social democracy would be worse than all of this.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:18 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell saying single market membership incompatible with the referendum result. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.

The UK is, and I am sorry for swearing, completely fucked.
your opinion is valid but, as with most of yours, is given with a certainty which is not supported by your ability in actually being right

A little bit of humility may be worth considering.....

Corbyn also ruled out single market membership on Marr.

No free movement. No single market. No customs union therefore possible.

That is hard Brexit.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:20 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell saying single market membership incompatible with the referendum result. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.

The UK is, and I am sorry for swearing, completely fucked.
your opinion is valid but, as with most of yours, is given with a certainty which is not supported by your ability in actually being right

A little bit of humility may be worth considering.....
Corbyn also ruled out single market membership on Marr.

No free movement. No single market. No customs union therefore possible.

That is hard Brexit.

I repeat my last comment

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:30 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell saying single market membership incompatible with the referendum result. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.

The UK is, and I am sorry for swearing, completely fucked.
your opinion is valid but, as with most of yours, is given with a certainty which is not supported by your ability in actually being right

A little bit of humility may be worth considering.....
Corbyn also ruled out single market membership on Marr.

No free movement. No single market. No customs union therefore possible.

That is hard Brexit.

It really isn't. You understand nothing. Or you do and choose to misrepresent the situation.

Remain was presented to the electorate and lost by 48 to 52.

Only slightly less directly Hard Brexit was presented to the electorate and it lost by about the same margin (unless you think everyone voting DUP was voting for Brexit).

So, democratically speaking the "will of the people" is fairly clear. Soft Brexit. Which will be infernally hard to deliver, but the government needs to try.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:34 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone
Just caught up with the thread

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:42 pm

Dissipated, woebegone and missing a heel off a shoe, the Tory party lurches about the room while the country and people stare incredulous at the spectacle.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:45 pm

13:43

Donald Trump has told Theresa May in a phone call he does not want to go ahead with a state visit to Britain until the British public supports him coming. Patrick Wintour reports. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Edited to add -

Let's hope it's an endless wait.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:45 pm

Ooh, yes please.

Keiran Pedley‏Verified account
@keiranpedley
Follow
More
Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.

Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:46 pm

And further to the condescension point, we have this...

Pundits getting it in the neck, I see. A few points:
[blah blah blah]
so spare me the pomposity and the confected rage, and grow up. Or go read the Canary.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It actually manages to get worse when people start engaging with him. No, really.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:51 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.

Keiran Pedley‏Verified account
@keiranpedley
Follow
More
Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.
Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 1:56 pm

yahyah wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.

Keiran Pedley‏Verified account
@keiranpedley
Follow
More
Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.
Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

Hi yahyah completely agree.

There's no reason to think Corbyn won't offer it (see a year ago linked below). So I guess the question really is whether Ed will accept.

The obvious place is energy and environment, where Ed is incredibly knowledgeable.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... abinet-job" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:
13:43

Donald Trump has told Theresa May in a phone call he does not want to go ahead with a state visit to Britain until the British public supports him coming. Patrick Wintour reports. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Ha!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:03 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.
Keiran Pedley‏Verified account
@keiranpedley
Follow
More
Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.
Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

Yes, agreed. Above all, stay together

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:12 pm

NonOxCol wrote:And further to the condescension point, we have this...
Pundits getting it in the neck, I see. A few points:
[blah blah blah]
so spare me the pomposity and the confected rage, and grow up. Or go read the Canary.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It actually manages to get worse when people start engaging with him. No, really.

Oh, my word, this, this, is where compassion within me fails
I'm so angry
my rage is not 'confected'
chrisdeerin
you wally

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:15 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
yahyah wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.

Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.
Hi yahyah completely agree.

There's no reason to think Corbyn won't offer it (see a year ago linked below). So I guess the question really is whether Ed will accept.

The obvious place is energy and environment, where Ed is incredibly knowledgeable.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... abinet-job" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job

Why not the big one, Foreign Office? EdM shadowing BJ.

Lucas for environment.

And while I'm on a flight of fancy, Clegg for chief Brexit negotiator, he's got nothing else to do.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:21 pm

From a technical point of view, I would be very happy to see Miliband come back into frontline politics.

I can also see positive points in Yvette Cooper although she has a lot of baggage and was responsible for putting place some of the schemes that the Tories have exploited in victimising the disabled (and before there are screams she cannot be held fully responsible for vileness of the Tories but she cannot be exonerated either)

What I find a bit off though is that all the pundits and members of the PLP have spent the last year telling all of us that Corbyn was a disaster, Labour were going to get 20% and less than 200 seats - with absolute and complete certainty. Us supporters have been called a 'cult' and other things (although there have been a few Red Tory accusations thrown about to to be fair) and were accused of taking the Labour Party to the point of extinction

Now these same people are telling Corbyn what he should be doing with no embarrassment at all. The 'moderate' i.e. right wing of the Labour Party have a place in the tent - absolutely - but they have to accept that they are representing a party that stood on a social democrat manifesto with a centre-left leader that provides a platform for the next election.

Some of us have memories of the last few years and how we have seen the party and some of its establishment behave. Even no there are still people sniping from the shadows

Let us put that all behind us and go forward unto the election manifesto and the leader we have, including a SC that is diverse but committed to that manifesto and supportive of the leader.

There is still a way to go but things are looking up for Labour and it is the Tories who are busy tearing themselves apart - let us try not to let them off the hook again like what happened after the referendum please

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:23 pm

Caroline won't be taking up a shadow post in the Labour party. Nor would I as a Green want her to.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:27 pm

Jeremy Corbyn has said that Labour will...demand....
In an interview on the Andrew Marr Show notable for the confidence he exuded...

Of all the damned impertinence! Confidence! A Labour party leader exuding confidence.
whatever next

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:33 pm

Temulkar wrote:Caroline won't be taking up a shadow post in the Labour party. Nor would I as a Green want her to.

It was a joke.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:34 pm

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job
Why not the big one, Foreign Office? EdM shadowing BJ

Lucas for environment.

And while I'm on a flight of fancy, Clegg for chief Brexit negotiator, he's got nothing else to do.

why demote Thornberry?

MIliband to be there but there needs to be some loyalty to those who have stood by him through all the last year of abuse, and the bruising campaign

And Clegg? Why? He is as unpopular as Blair...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:36 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Reflecting back on all this, I realise I'm still desperate for a space for people to discuss what an alliance of European nations (called the EU or whatever) would ideally look like.

If we could all talk about what the EU could be, rather than what it is and what it shouldn't be, we might all end up in a much happier place.

agree and attempted a couple of times in a small brainless way to initiate such discussion. like what kind of coalition building is going on with respect to a pan-European progressive alliance, what are the fundamental issues we need to collective address, what are the existing barriers to that, and where do we currently have the largest amount of common ground. The problem will be in trying to hold people together where they agree rather than risk people separating out on the basis of mutual dislike or by focusing on where they don't agree. Even where you have like-minded people working on a fairly specific common issue, you can get as many groups splintering off due to some small disagreement as you can bring together over a common goal.

But am up for discussing further - definitely.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:37 pm

@tinyclanger2
Well said

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:40 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:.

Only slightly less directly Hard Brexit was presented to the electorate and it lost by about the same margin (unless you think everyone voting DUP was voting for Brexit).

So, democratically speaking the "will of the people" is fairly clear. Soft Brexit. Which will be infernally hard to deliver, but the government needs to try.

Fine.

So explain to me how you can have single market membership without freedom of movement?

How can you have a customs union without single market membership or freedom of movement (Turkey has a separate and limited customs union, but guess why the EU were prepared to accept that without freedom of movement - cf Switzerland)?

If these are not possible, explain to me how exiting the single market and no customs union is not a granite Hard Brexit?

Corbyn on Marr and McDonnell on Peston both explicitly ruled out single market membership.

The hardline Tories (Davies, IDS, Hannan) say they want tariff free access to the EU. That is what Corbyn and McDonnell also say they want. That is Hard Brexit as the barriers to trade are not tariffs. That is a £100bn (conservative) per annum cost to the UK.

This is the internal contradiction in the Labour manifesto. It wants to end freedom of movement, and have all the benefits of the single market. That is an impossibility.

I don't think Corbyn and McDonnell want us in the single market. Single market membership prevents things like state aid, widespread nationalisation, some kinds of regulation, state contract preference, and so on.

Labour is on a high through fudging this. By saying it wants to end freedom of movement it helped to neutralise the immigration issue. It then, in complete contradiction of that, says it wants all the benefits of the single market. Well, that is not on offer.

Eventually that contradiction will be a problem. Not today, but eventually.

The Tories are in the same bind. Brexit is an economic disaster. They however are the ones who will go on paying the price as they are in power. If Labour got into government, this contradiction would soon start biting upon it.

In a way, this isn't Labour or the Tories fault. The public want mutually contradictory things. Some even seem to think these problems can disappear either by being rude to the EU or really polite.

There is no soft Brexit. May was right. Brexit means Brexit. There are no different kinds of it.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:43 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job
Why not the big one, Foreign Office? EdM shadowing BJ

Lucas for environment.

And while I'm on a flight of fancy, Clegg for chief Brexit negotiator, he's got nothing else to do.

why demote Thornberry?

MIliband to be there but there needs to be some loyalty to those who have stood by him through all the last year of abuse, and the bruising campaign

And Clegg? Why? He is as unpopular as Blair...

It was a joke.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:46 pm

gilsey wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job
Why not the big one, Foreign Office? EdM shadowing BJ

Lucas for environment.

And while I'm on a flight of fancy, Clegg for chief Brexit negotiator, he's got nothing else to do.

why demote Thornberry?

MIliband to be there but there needs to be some loyalty to those who have stood by him through all the last year of abuse, and the bruising campaign

And Clegg? Why? He is as unpopular as Blair...
It was a joke.

mea culpa

my apologies

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:46 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Reflecting back on all this, I realise I'm still desperate for a space for people to discuss what an alliance of European nations (called the EU or whatever) would ideally look like.

If we could all talk about what the EU could be, rather than what it is and what it shouldn't be, we might all end up in a much happier place.
agree and attempted a couple of times in a small brainless way to initiate such discussion. like what kind of coalition building is going on with respect to a pan-European progressive alliance, what are the fundamental issues we need to collective address, what are the existing barriers to that, and where do we currently have the largest amount of common ground. The problem will be in trying to hold people together where they agree rather than risk people separating out on the basis of mutual dislike or by focusing on where they don't agree. Even where you have like-minded people working on a fairly specific common issue, you can get as many groups splintering off due to some small disagreement as you can bring together over a common goal.

But am up for discussing further - definitely.

Have we had this?
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... o-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The purpose will be to enable Britain to have access to the Single Market and customs union, while also achieving improvements in economic policies across the European Union and the Eurozone. Already our European partners are discussing the necessary Treaty changes to enable the Eurozone to work more effectively. This provides an ideal opportunity to discuss issues that could enable a positive and mutually beneficial economic, social, security and environmental framework for the relationship between Britain and current European partners.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 2:55 pm

gilsey wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Reflecting back on all this, I realise I'm still desperate for a space for people to discuss what an alliance of European nations (called the EU or whatever) would ideally look like.

If we could all talk about what the EU could be, rather than what it is and what it shouldn't be, we might all end up in a much happier place.
agree and attempted a couple of times in a small brainless way to initiate such discussion. like what kind of coalition building is going on with respect to a pan-European progressive alliance, what are the fundamental issues we need to collective address, what are the existing barriers to that, and where do we currently have the largest amount of common ground. The problem will be in trying to hold people together where they agree rather than risk people separating out on the basis of mutual dislike or by focusing on where they don't agree. Even where you have like-minded people working on a fairly specific common issue, you can get as many groups splintering off due to some small disagreement as you can bring together over a common goal.

But am up for discussing further - definitely.
Have we had this?
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... o-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The purpose will be to enable Britain to have access to the Single Market and customs union, while also achieving improvements in economic policies across the European Union and the Eurozone. Already our European partners are discussing the necessary Treaty changes to enable the Eurozone to work more effectively. This provides an ideal opportunity to discuss issues that could enable a positive and mutually beneficial economic, social, security and environmental framework for the relationship between Britain and current European partners.

What a bizarre piece. Why would anyone think the EU would be remotely interested in EU Treaty changes put forward by the UK?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:01 pm

Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn)

Cancellation of President Trump's State Visit is welcome, especially after his attack on London's mayor & withdrawal from #ParisClimateDeal.
June 11, 2017

(Politics Live, Guardian)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:03 pm

why would anyone think that Jeremy Corbyn would have won seats off the Tories and, as leader, would hold the Tories to a hung Parliament, increasing the Labour vote by 10%?

Not me, and definitely not you

Difference is that I do not arrogantly assume that my opinion is anything but my assessment of the situation which can be completely wrong for a variety of reasons

I thought the Tories would have a majority of 30-40 seats - how wrong I was!

You have no idea what the EU are prepared to do and negotiate - what they will not want to do I assume is give any concessions to a May-led aggressive negotiation.

No-one has negotiated an Exit before so we have no model - neither do the EU

This election suggests that the electorate have a different view than the Tories so we can see what that means for our negotiation

The problem is that it looks like the Tories will still be in charge of the negotiations and May's past record suggests she will be crap at it - trouble is for her she will not now be able to get her ideas back through the HoC

It is a nightmare and she has made a complete mess of it all - potentially not only a hard Brexit but a chaotic Brexit which may be even worse

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:11 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:why would anyone think that Jeremy Corbyn would have won seats off the Tories and, as leader, would hold the Tories to a hung Parliament, increasing the Labour vote by 10%?

Not me, and definitely not you

Difference is that I do not arrogantly assume that my opinion is anything but my assessment of the situation which can be completely wrong for a variety of reasons

I thought the Tories would have a majority of 30-40 seats - how wrong I was!

You have no idea what the EU are prepared to do and negotiate - what they will not want to do I assume is give any concessions to a May-led aggressive negotiation.

No-one has negotiated an Exit before so we have no model - neither do the EU

This election suggests that the electorate have a different view than the Tories so we can see what that means for our negotiation

The problem is that it looks like the Tories will still be in charge of the negotiations and May's past record suggests she will be crap at it - trouble is for her she will not now be able to get her ideas back through the HoC

It is a nightmare and she has made a complete mess of it all - potentially not only a hard Brexit but a chaotic Brexit which may be even worse

Indeed, looks like we had the same view of the election's probable outcome. Because that is what the data told us.

However, there are other things we can predict with much more certainty than whether around 1/10 voters will swing one way or the other.

That is that every EU official there is is not lying, and that the four freedoms are indivisible. You can't have single market membership and no freedom of movement. We have plenty of examples of the kinds of relations the EU is prepared to agree to (Switzerland, Norway) and Labour's policy is contrary to single market membership.

Not only that Corbyn and McDonnell both said they oppose single market membership, as have the Tories. All have said they favour "tariff free access" which is Hard Brexit.

Nobody can even come up with a viable model of what soft Brexit might be, if it is not single market membership.

So, Hard Brexit it is.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:19 pm

you mistake the point I am making

My predictions are often wrong but I know that

Your predictions are always wrong but you still speak in certainties

I am not bothering to argue with you on specific points as you never listen to anyone else's opinion unless it agree with yours

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:30 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:you mistake the point I am making

My predictions are often wrong but I know that

Your predictions are always wrong but you still speak in certainties

I am not bothering to argue with you on specific points as you never listen to anyone else's opinion unless it agree with yours

Ok. Shall we both just take the insults as a given then, and move on to more productive things?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:36 pm

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/n ... er_Brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
THE Conservative leader on Bradford Council has slammed his party’s wish to strike a “shabby” deal with the Democratic Unionist Party.

Councillor Simon Cooke took to Twitter to say: “Ian Paisley, founder of the DUP hated me just for being Catholic. Please explain how I’m supposed to support this shabby deal with them?”

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:37 pm

Cllr Cooke also said he agreed with re-elected Conservative MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, that the public was tired of austerity and wanted an alternative.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:42 pm

gilsey wrote: Have we had this?
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... o-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The purpose will be to enable Britain to have access to the Single Market and customs union, while also achieving improvements in economic policies across the European Union and the Eurozone. Already our European partners are discussing the necessary Treaty changes to enable the Eurozone to work more effectively. This provides an ideal opportunity to discuss issues that could enable a positive and mutually beneficial economic, social, security and environmental framework for the relationship between Britain and current European partners.

First, a stronger commitment to full, good quality employment should become a primary, not secondary aim of Article 3.3 of the Treaty on European Union.

yes - this is critical.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:48 pm

Damien Green has been moved to the Cabinet Office. That leaves the DWP up for grabs.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:50 pm

HSOM - whatever the reason, Hugo clearly enjoys only one thing more than being a harbinger of doom - and that is winding people up. I don't think he can help it. Is it possible to resist the temptation to read?

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:51 pm

PorFavor wrote:Damien Green has been moved to the Cabinet Office. That leaves the DWP up for grabs.

Esther McVey might want to finish a few things off. Including me.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:51 pm

(apologies to both SH and HSOM for intervening, but I make these small attempts with good intention)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 3:54 pm

Heather Stewart ✔ @GuardianHeather
"The PM is a woman of extraordinary qualities": This WhatsApp from Boris doesn't sound *at all* as though it was meant to be leaked... " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:03 pm

David Gauke gets DWP.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:03 pm

gilsey wrote:Have we had this?
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... o-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I encourage everyone to read the article in its entirety - it's good.

...it is crucial that Labour and allies put forward an alternative European strategy straight away.

Labour should pursue two major complementary policy goals. The first: to end austerity, and implement a Green New Deal across Britain.
This will lead to investment in infrastructure and the creation of skilled and unskilled jobs locally, especially targeted toward areas of low-paid, insecure employment.

The second major policy goal: to reset the framework and relations with our European partners; and to gain policy space and Treaty reforms which benefit British citizens as well as all Europeans.

...it is most important to ensure that we have time. For this to happen we must seek to extend the Article 50 timeline to at least four-years. But this requires Britain now to make clear that it would fully honour all budget commitments during this period and in particular, confirm that EU citizens resident in the UK would have their rights protected. This should include a commitment to pay our fair share for the future mutual benefits arising from our future framework of partnership.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:06 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Heather Stewart ✔ @GuardianHeather
"The PM is a woman of extraordinary qualities": This WhatsApp from Boris doesn't sound *at all* as though it was meant to be leaked... " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Quite. It's part of his manoeuvres. Look loyal and then regrettfully have to fill the breach.

Edited to add -

Well - have a go at filling the breach, anyway.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:11 pm

Progressive alliances are the future of British politics
Caroline Lucas

It is incumbent on progressives in the House of Commons to work together to oppose the cruel agenda of those in government and to build a vision of a more confident and caring Britain. ...I know that the progressive alliance helped us reduce the Conservative majority. At this election, what was new was not the idea of an alliance, something that has been talked about in the run-up to most recent elections, but the fact that the first step was made towards one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... h-politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:13 pm

Liz Truss First Secretary to the Treasury. Phew!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:13 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:(apologies to both SH and HSOM for intervening, but I make these small attempts with good intention)

I am in a less combative mood at the moment tc so I am perfectly happy with your intervention

If that is his intention then it is really quite sad....

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:14 pm

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Heather Stewart ✔ @GuardianHeather
"The PM is a woman of extraordinary qualities": This WhatsApp from Boris doesn't sound *at all* as though it was meant to be leaked... " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Quite. It's part of his manoeuvres. Look loyal and then regrettfully have to fill the breach.

Edited to add -

Well - have a go at filling the breach, anyway.

He won't challenge her...he won't need to as she will be told to go!

He will not be actively opposing that happening I am sure

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:14 pm

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 11 Jun, 2017 4:16 pm

Paul Johnson ✔ @paul__johnson
Damian Green: First Secretary of State.
Effectively deputy PM.
Was most pro-Europe in Cabinet.
May into reverse
http://gu.com/p/6tpf4?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Even as a small child I found the hokey cokey irritating. All that faffing and indecision.