Tuesday 13th June 2017

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:12 pm

What the fuck is May doing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:14 pm

Apart from turning into June?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:15 pm

Getting no thanks on a vote about Brexit (her position not mine) and then bringing in hardliners.
Anyone would think that she learned nothing and no capacity to learn anything.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:16 pm

Jessica Elgot ✔ @jessicaelgot
May and Macron's press conference gets off to a flying start as the PM's paper blows off into the wind

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:17 pm

Not sure if she knows,to be honest.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:18 pm

AFinch wrote:@HindleA

Thanks for your message. The site won't allow me to reply - I think it's because I've not posted enough.

Ho hum.

Best get typing then

Also, welcome!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:18 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Jessica Elgot ✔ @jessicaelgot
May and Macron's press conference gets off to a flying start as the PM's paper blows off into the wind

It's in situations like that where yer goatskin comes into its own.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:19 pm

Are they playing paper aeroplanes?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:23 pm

I mean they don't even know the rules of Monopoly,on that basis alone,they should be ruled ineligible.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:25 pm

Always board the crap out of me,but at least I knew how to play.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:34 pm

Brexit thread re what happened when Brits met Euros.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

including this.

Jennifer Rankin‏ @JenniferMerode 45m45 minutes ago
More
British gov has not sent any details of its Brexit position to Brussels and no one knows what British really want now/ 8

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:36 pm

TWOTP:

yes but no but yes but no but ...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:37 pm

G Live:

Macron, who decides to continue answering in French, says he respects the decision by the British people to come out of the EU. While it was not for him to question that decision, he does add that the possibility of reopening the door remains until the UK actually departs.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:42 pm

kettle calls

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:46 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:G Live:

Macron, who decides to continue answering in French, says he respects the decision by the British people to come out of the EU. While it was not for him to question that decision, he does add that the possibility of reopening the door remains until the UK actually departs.

And there is the way forward.

A final referendum with Brexit vs. Remain in a reformed EU on the ballot.

Just what Cameron envisaged, except for myriad reasons he couldn't deliver the reform & remain option.

Article 50 and the ticking clock have no pragmatic significance at all.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:49 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:G Live:

Macron, who decides to continue answering in French, says he respects the decision by the British people to come out of the EU. While it was not for him to question that decision, he does add that the possibility of reopening the door remains until the UK actually departs.
And there is the way forward.

A final referendum with Brexit vs. Remain in a reformed EU on the ballot.

Just what Cameron envisaged, except for myriad reasons he couldn't deliver the reform & remain option.

Article 50 and the ticking clock have no pragmatic significance at all.

Perhaps but the poison that is this Tory Government has to be drained and a Government with a proper mandate needs to be elected to do it........this Government cannot go to the country again as the risk is it will, like 2016, be a referendum on their incompetence

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:53 pm

Talking kettle-excellent.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:55 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:G Live:

Macron, who decides to continue answering in French, says he respects the decision by the British people to come out of the EU. While it was not for him to question that decision, he does add that the possibility of reopening the door remains until the UK actually departs.

First Germany, now France
Get rid of Tory government and call off Tory 'Brexit'

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:56 pm

Juncker's white paper on the Future of Europe (from March):
Description: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/white-p ... os-eu27_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Download: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... ope_en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:57 pm

HindleA wrote:Talking kettle-excellent.

Sends Tarquin its regards

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 7:58 pm

‘Europe will not be made all at once, or
according to a single plan. It will be built
through concrete achievements which first
create a de facto solidarity.’
Robert Schuman
9 May 1950

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:00 pm

: Europe Peace.png (24.42 KiB) Viewed 12343 times

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:02 pm

@ TC2 Have passed message on,he is busy plotting an armed insurrection of garden ornaments,isn't taking it well.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:04 pm

If you hear of guerrilla lawn mowing activity,you know why.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:08 pm

A post-election poll by YouGov found that 51% would prefer Brexit to be negotiated by a cross-party team.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:08 pm

How are they measuring crossness?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:10 pm

clatter-ometer

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:11 pm

(and tutting)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:11 pm

What is the tut factor level at the moment,still critical?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:12 pm

(I think it's gone up to muttering out of the window)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:14 pm

I have always done that,but at chuntering level 4

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:16 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:G Live:

Macron, who decides to continue answering in French, says he respects the decision by the British people to come out of the EU. While it was not for him to question that decision, he does add that the possibility of reopening the door remains until the UK actually departs.
And there is the way forward.

A final referendum with Brexit vs. Remain in a reformed EU on the ballot.

Just what Cameron envisaged, except for myriad reasons he couldn't deliver the reform & remain option.

Article 50 and the ticking clock have no pragmatic significance at all.

There is no prospect, none at all, of the EU being "reformed" as a result of any proposal from the UK. That is over. Why would the other 27 member states be remotely interested?

Article 50 has a great deal of significance. We're out come March 2019.

Martin Wolf has the best actual suggestion, as opposed to fantasy.

https://www.ft.com/content/ad75838c-501 ... 19572361bb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The least bad option would probably be to accept virtually all the EU’s terms of divorce, plus a lengthy post-2019 period of transition within the single market and customs union, followed by as comprehensive a free-trade agreement as possible. "

I agree. Corbyn and McDonnell would oppose that, but i doubt they'd carry the bulk of the PLP with them.

What a horrible mess. Labour is best out of office while the crash occurs. Lucky them, as they have no answers at all either.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:16 pm

By the way what am I supposed to FACE ,what does the IT refer to,or just in general?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:22 pm

Sleepwalking towards a chaotic Brexit

The likelihood that there will be no deal is now even higher than before the election
Martin Wolf

Theresa May promised strength and stability. She has delivered the opposite. It would be funny if it were not so serious. Donald Trump is fixated on the idea that the world is laughing at the US. In the case of the UK, it has to be true: David Cameron launched an unnecessary referendum on EU membership; his successor Mrs May follows by destroying her political position. The country looks ridiculous. The general election has also increased the likelihood of “no deal”. Contrary to the idea that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, this would be a calamity, for both sides.

The irony of the election is that the Conservative party’s 42.4 per cent share of the vote was its highest since 1983. It was also higher than the monthly average of polls throughout almost all of the last parliament. What was unexpected was Labour’s ability to squeeze the minor parties, whose share of the vote fell to its lowest level since 1970. The party’s leader Jeremy Corbyn, a perpetual rebel, proved the ideal pied piper of protest.

The prime minister has lost her majority and authority. As the former chancellor George Osborne noted, she is a “dead woman walking”. Mrs May now relies on the cantankerous Democratic Unionist party. She has also already wasted an eighth of the time available after triggering Article 50 of the EU treaty. She will find it virtually impossible to agree and then legislate the necessary compromises with the EU in time, if at all. Foremost among those compromises will be payment of large amounts of money and agreement to grandfather existing rights of EU citizens in the UK. Yet, quite apart from taking up time, another election might fail to resolve anything. It might be another hung parliament. The UK is in a spectacular mess.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:22 pm

http://www.cbi.org.uk/businessvoice/lat ... education/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit sector focus: higher education

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:23 pm

The obsession over EU membership of a part of the right, combined with the irresponsibility of Mr Cameron, arguably the worst prime minister in UK history, has brought the country to a crisis. The likelihood that there will be no deal is now still higher than before the election, since a deal depends on accepting the EU’s terms for divorce. There is no reason to expect trade in goods and services or aviation to flow, let alone smoothly, after such a disorderly exit. Arranging post-exit trade will take co-operation and preparation. With “no deal”, the UK could not expect either from the EU, which will view it as an outlaw — a country that has repudiated its obligations. That, after all, is what “no deal” means.

To reduce the country to such a relationship with its eternal neighbours and principal trading partners would be insane. But that is what the referendum risked — and still risks. Among many defects was the failure to specify alternatives properly. There is no binary choice between Remain and Leave. There is a possible choice between Remain and many Leaves. Subject to agreement with the EU, these could vary from the softest — permanent membership of the single market and the customs union; to the hardest — no post-Brexit deal; or the chaotic — no deal at all. Given how close the outcome was, Remain would almost certainly have defeated any specific version of Brexit in a two-way race. Yet, in the end, the UK can only have a specific version of Brexit. That is why it is democratically legitimate to demand another referendum between Remain and the negotiated version of Brexit (if any). Unfortunately, it might be difficult for the UK to withdraw its application to leave.

This foolish process has now set the UK on a path to a chaotic exit. Britain has long wanted to divide Europe. It is now uniting it, against itself. That is a strategic disaster. Moreover, on its own, its clout is limited. Already, it finds itself inhibited in its relations with Mr Trump’s US, for fear of retribution. In the trade deals that will matter, with the US, China, India or the EU itself, the UK will be a weak supplicant. It will have to accept what mightier partners demand.

Harold Macmillan followed up his acceptance of the end of imperial Britain with an application to join the then European Economic Community in 1961 for good economic and political reasons. He understood that the UK’s strategic interest had become being part of a strong Europe. The best choice for the UK remains to Remain. All the alternatives are much worse. Some now hope that the country could stay inside the single market and customs union, so enjoying at least the economic benefits of membership. But that means accepting both free movement and regulations over which it would have no say. This would give nearly all the perceived disadvantages of EU membership, without the benefits. It would be politically intolerable. So the UK is now left scrabbling around in a search for politically more tolerable, but economically far worse, options than full membership.

The least bad option would probably be to accept virtually all the EU’s terms of divorce, plus a lengthy post-2019 period of transition within the single market and customs union, followed by as comprehensive a free-trade agreement as possible. This would be worse than continued membership. But it would be relatively manageable. Unfortunately, reaching and implementing such a deal, in the limited time available, also requires a strong, stable and sensible government. That is not what the UK has or seems at all likely to have.

Idle folly has trapped the country between an EU rock and an ultra-hard Brexit. “No Brexit” is still far better than alternatives. The pariah status of “no deal” would be far worse than any deal. But a bad deal, or none, lies ahead. For this, the Conservatives are largely to blame. Voters will be enraged when they realise that. The reckoning will be ugly.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:24 pm

According to yougov about equal split Lab/Tory among FT readers.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:27 pm

G Live:

Back to Theresa May’s attempt to strike a formal deal with the DUP for a moment.

Martin Kettle argues that such an arrangement brings no added benefit to the Tories, while creating further reputational damage because of the DUP’s image as a socially reactionary, culturally conservative, climate-change denying party.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:28 pm

I read that way before the Guardian,for example,the fact I didn't have to buy it,somehow borrowed from the Economics teacher,when I say read,I mean pretend to but in reality doing the crossword;had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:31 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Article 50 has a great deal of significance. We're out come March 2019.

I bet you a pint it's unresolved by then.

I mean it's not like there's no precedent. Look at the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. In, out, shake it all about doesn't even start to describe it. Or all the ultimatums on Greece, which is still in the Euro I believe despite presumably meeting none of the requirements.

The EU has always been flexible and tried to keep members on board. Of course it has!

As usual you are talking horseshit because it suits your purposes. Why not engage and point your great intellect at deciphering the meaning of the comments from Verhofstadt and Macron?

Which is what other posters here were doing.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:41 pm

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/reforming-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It’s rare to find a politician in Europe who can talk about the EU without mentioning the R-word. Reform is the apple pie of European politics: every politician wants a slice.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:41 pm

oh - now we're having 'sensible brexit'

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:42 pm

where we'll all be wearing clark's sandals

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:44 pm

Speak for yourself I am prattling nonsense and posting information otherwise unobtainable for some that don't have the necessary subscription which somehow I have,I presume because of historical so many articles for free thing.Would urge caution and specify what the pint is actually of.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:44 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Article 50 has a great deal of significance. We're out come March 2019.
I bet you a pint it's unresolved by then.

I mean it's not like there's no precedent. Look at the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. In, out, shake it all about doesn't even start to describe it. Or all the ultimatums on Greece, which is still in the Euro I believe despite presumably meeting none of the requirements.

The EU has always been flexible and tried to keep members on board. Of course it has!

As usual you are talking horseshit because it suits your purposes. Why not engage and point your great intellect at deciphering the meaning of the comments from Verhofstadt and Macron?

Which is what other posters here were doing.

"horseshit".

I never really get why you then get terribly upset about the (polite) way I express my views.

The UK could opt to remain in the EU. I voted for a party that has that as its policy. So, I fervently hope for what Verhofstadt and Macron say is always possible.

What about you? Or did you vote for a Brexit party? If it is one that favours ending freedom of movement, a Hard Brexit party?

What Macron and Verhofstadt are saying is that Remain is always an option.

Otherwise, the UK is stuffed,

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:47 pm

sensible brexit means no dressing gowns

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:48 pm

HindleA wrote:According to yougov about equal split Lab/Tory among FT readers.

FT used to endorse Labour.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:50 pm

2 votes for 'horseshit'

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:50 pm

Because people are different and have different sensibilities,the genuine try and take that into account in a good,rather than a purposefully bad way.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 8:52 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Article 50 has a great deal of significance. We're out come March 2019.
I bet you a pint it's unresolved by then.

I mean it's not like there's no precedent. Look at the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. In, out, shake it all about doesn't even start to describe it. Or all the ultimatums on Greece, which is still in the Euro I believe despite presumably meeting none of the requirements.

The EU has always been flexible and tried to keep members on board. Of course it has!

As usual you are talking horseshit because it suits your purposes. Why not engage and point your great intellect at deciphering the meaning of the comments from Verhofstadt and Macron?

Which is what other posters here were doing.
"horseshit".

I never really get why you then get terribly upset about the (polite) way I express my views.

The UK could opt to remain in the EU. I voted for a party that has that as its policy. So, I fervently hope for what Verhofstadt and Macron say is always possible.

What about you? Or did you vote for a Brexit party? If it is one that favours ending freedom of movement, a Hard Brexit party?

What Macron and Verhofstadt are saying is that Remain is always an option.

Otherwise, the UK is stuffed,

IMHO, unless PM Boris is standing on the White Cliffs mooning at the rest of Europe, there is zero chance that we will have left the EU when the two years are up. Zero.

Thanks for the reply. Are you accepting my bet?