Saturday 17th & Sunday 18th June 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:13 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... and-beyond" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Press release
Government to confirm two-year Parliament to deliver Brexit and beyond

Next PM obviously Buzz Lightyear.

(Apologies for repeat)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:24 pm

[youtube]ejwrxGs_Y_I[/youtube]

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:31 pm

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 0-amp.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:03 am

adam wrote:Queen's speech to MPs dropped next year to allow for Brexit laws

In a highly unusual move, the parliamentary session is being doubled to two years. The leader of the Commons, Andrea Leadsom, said this would give MPs and peers the maximum time possible to scrutinise legislation taking the UK out of the European Union. It means the government will not put forward a new legislative programme next year.

Which roughly translates as "Once we've done this Queen's Speech, we've run out of things to do"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:24 am

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... s-spending" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Debt bubble returns millions to days of 2008 crash

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 8:17 am

Found myself yesterday, wondering why the Brexit referendum result wasn't taken by anyone as the starting point it was, rather than pretending that all the planning had already been done. Am curious as to why no-one was able to say - OK the will of the people is that more of us currently want to come out of Europe than don't. Obviously the first thing we need to do is look at what the different options are - which will take x years - and then select the best option after which it will take a further y to z years depending on the option we go for. Even the smallest business or charity in the country would not make much smaller decisions than this in this bizarrely ill-informed way in which we have apparently decided to move forward.

Given that (no matter how the Express presents this) only 44 percent now think we should go ahead with Brexit, 21 % think we shouldn't and 26% don't want it but think we should have it because 44% of people want it. 9% don't know. So actually now at least 47% think we shouldn't do it (compared to 44% that do) but 26% are too polite or apathetic to take a firm stand on something this critical.

I continue to find this ethically perplexing.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 9:08 am

https://www.markpack.org.uk/150475/majo ... exit-deal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Survation MoS poll finds for first time more people, 53%, backing new referendum to approve Brexit deal than opposing.
6:28 AM - 18 Jun 2017

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 9:09 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... foundation
But......but.......Clive Lewis tweeted something nasty about neoliberalism!

Lewis is finished, which is good.

I don't know. For someone like me (who wants to Remain because the damage is enormous, loathes the Tories, but can't stand Milne, Fisher, Murray, McDonnell and Corbyn) politics has never been worse. Bad people in charge everywhere.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 9:16 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Found myself yesterday, wondering why the Brexit referendum result wasn't taken by anyone as the starting point it was, rather than pretending that all the planning had already been done. Am curious as to why no-one was able to say - OK the will of the people is that more of us currently want to come out of Europe than don't. Obviously the first thing we need to do is look at what the different options are - which will take x years - and then select the best option after which it will take a further y to z years depending on the option we go for. Even the smallest business or charity in the country would not make much smaller decisions than this in this bizarrely ill-informed way in which we have apparently decided to move forward.

Given that (no matter how the Express presents this) only 44 percent now think we should go ahead with Brexit, 21 % think we shouldn't and 26% don't want it but think we should have it because 44% of people want it. 9% don't know. So actually now at least 47% think we shouldn't do it (compared to 44% that do) but 26% are too polite or apathetic to take a firm stand on something this critical.

I continue to find this ethically perplexing.

Morning TC

It seems to me that the referendum outcome has been presented largely as though peoples' responses were "bimodal". So, on the graph below, on a scale of Remain without reservation to Leave without reservation, we've been talking about the blue curve.

What seems more likely to me is that the responses were more like the red line, which means the vast majority of folk aren't really sure.

This for me then should have been the start point.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 9:19 am

Btw this is just meant to be a visual way of expressing what I see, not a proper statistical analysis!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 9:32 am

Ok, here is the Hugo manifesto. None of this is rocket science, they are just the obvious and easy steps to make the UK rapidly better off.

1. End Brexit. That will immediately reverse (and more) the large falls in the £ reflecting the fact that we've voted to make ourselves much poorer.

2. Massive investment programme to get interest rates off the zlb. Not some arbitrary £Xbn figure, but the appropriate amount to lift rates above zero.

3. That investment spending should be concentrated on the infrastructure for housebuilding. This needs to be coupled with deregulation (not fashionable today for obvious reasons) of where and how high you can build. Much of the greenbelt around London needs to go (it was there to stop urban sprawl). Golf courses in Surrey need to go, now. Upwards of 500,000 new homes in 5 years, should be achievable if we combine capital investment and deregulation (but not deregulation of quality. What are needed is just more units. We should insist on high quality, but not insist that Y number need to be for affordable. Just build more quality homes.)

4. Don't embark on any renationalisation, save perhaps of water. A complete waste of time.

5. Reverse the cruel penny-pinching cuts to social security. This is not a big ticket expenditure.

6. Don't reintroduce free University education (a sop to the richest). Instead adopt the Browne review in full.

7. Pay for proper social care through a rise in inheritance tax, and integrate it properly with the NHS.

8. Accept that the NHS will become more expensive as we age, and raise taxes explaining this.

9. An LVT to replace council tax.

10. Get onside with the Eurpopean mainstream in terms of foreign policy. Trump is a monster, but Putin is far worse.

What a techno-wonkish left-y programme for making things much better looks like is easy. Instead, we're returning to the pre-Eu world of the early 1970s.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 9:52 am

PFY - totally agree

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 9:57 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... foundation
But......but.......Clive Lewis tweeted something nasty about neoliberalism!
Lewis is finished, which is good

Mate, you really should have learned not to make totally confident pronouncements like that after the last few years

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 10:12 am

indeed

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 10:21 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 95591.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Only 35 per cent agreed with Theresa May that "no deal is better than a bad deal" in EU negotiations, the research for The Mail on Sunday found.

So given that we scrupulously do what 50.00000001 percent of the population want at any one time (clear majority, will of the British People etc) we can only assume that 'no deal' is now firmly off the table.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 10:56 am

Peston mentioning end of social contract,well tragically brought home,for me anyway the deeming of necessary rooms for care as spare(and don't give me the piffle about discretionary payments which only highlights it more -DISCRETION being the operative and revealing word)concurrent with an enjoined press campaign of demonisation enabled by supposed liberalism signalled the end anyof any residual nod to it beyond linguistic reversals to any actual sense.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 10:57 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Mate, you really should have learned not to make totally confident pronouncements like that after the last few years

Ok He deserves to be finished and n all probability is because he is a fool.

But then, Diane Abbott is shadow home secretary, John McDonnell is shadow chancellor, and Jeremy Corbyn stands a good chance of being PM. Weird things happen.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 11:06 am

A guy that voted against a "fit for habitation" amendment(which despite the efforts of those that did so to say only PRS an ability to read and a man that helped draft it putting them right)was chosen as the best person to give the statement and answer questions in Parliament ie.the representative,in more ways than one.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 11:12 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... foundation
But......but.......Clive Lewis tweeted something nasty about neoliberalism!
Lewis is finished, which is good.

I don't know. For someone like me (who wants to Remain because the damage is enormous, loathes the Tories, but can't stand Milne, Fisher, Murray, McDonnell and Corbyn) politics has never been worse. Bad people in charge everywhere.

If you lump Lewis in with the others you class as 'bad people in charge everywhere' frankly you are bonkers, especially with the other much larger things going on that make the others you class as bad people look like angels of fucking mercy. Get a grip.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 11:20 am

To be fair,it was never the same after Morse died,but I don't think he is a bad person.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 11:29 am

SpinningHugo wrote: Ok He deserves to be finished and n all probability is because he is a fool.

He tweeted something slightly excitable, FFS.

The sheer pearl-clutching pretence of certain people in pretending he had wanted to burn people rather than an abstract thing was genuinely cringeworthy.

Besides, I thought you might have approved of his A50 stance at least?

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 11:49 am

My apologies to others, the inanity of hugo statements often makes my blood boil especially when I read of current tory antics and their efforts to change all manifest appearances into a vision of their own making. They won't be doing anything for two years except bloody brexit. Well that will make three, and many more if you project further than that, and we will be stuck with Osbornes legacy and perpetual cuts until god knows when. Despite all the end of austerity bollocks we can't even choke on let lone swallow. And the PM and Hammond trying to reframe a disaster as being of Labours msking, by the simple device of lying through their teeth. Plausibly or not depending on where on the political spectrum you might be. As for K&C and their offshoots not a whisper yet, maybe they have requisitioned some industrial sized shredders and a small army of computer hackers for the weekend. Because if you can remove all reason via propaganda, Hillsborough style, then maybe just maybe you will never have to justify the unreasonableness of the damage done in the last seven years. And maybe you can even advance the notion of warehousing mobility challenged people in those now dangerous but pretty building you have created. If anyone is scratching their head on this, well this too has been happening. Lifts and no gardens, put 'em in a tower block.

Also irking me this morning is the constant mantra of 'the poor' being pushed at us. What? I hope everyone is also scratching their heads as I have done, in total disbelief on this. Did you see any evidence of gangs of unemployed layabouts? Neither did I. My guess, plenty of working, or college going, or school attending PEOPLE. "the poor" is offensive. Even if they don't have much spare cash.

So just forgive me my impatience with hugo when a monumental bucket of whitewash is bing slopped on us, and will continue unless something quite radically chsnges.

TC I agree. WTF do people let such stuff happen? Why do they disbelieve their own common sense to the point of being convinced by the worst bunch of liars we have ever had to deal with.

The firemen recommended, on the basis that no building with sprinklers ever had a fatal fire, that sprinklers should be fitted. We have a PM who went live on TV, voluntarily, and said that the government had taken their advice. And this morning an attempt to focus culpability on a report in 2000 (!!!!) has ben made. How fucking bad does this country actually have to get before we are rid of these people?

apologies for any potential grammatical offences given or insults to ego etc. Reality calls, and this is where we are now, not in Hugo's imaginary world of blairite perfection.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 11:51 am

Just one thing about the above, though. Most people AREN'T now buying it.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:04 pm

We are still left dripping with whitewash though and nothing changed. Why isn't the topic of discussion the legality or otherwise of a government held together with chewing gum and a possibly illegal agreement? That will if neccessary be bought with loads of money and concessions.

Years ago I recognised the road we were on. Partly because if you have seen it once you recognise it. But there are always times we can change direction. If we are indeed the democracy we believe ourselves to be. A mandate delivered by decieving the populace hardly seems a democratic mandate to me. We have me hanisms to prevent this. We should use them. It is not enough just to say people aren't buying it. Invoke the safeguards, such as are left, otherwise things are undoubtedly going to get worse. Nothing right now seems normal. Even though it is a wonderful summer day.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:25 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 95586.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Two women feared dead in the Grenfell Tower tragedy were allegedly threatened with legal action after they campaigned for improved fire safety.
Mariem Elgwahry, 27, and mother-of-three Nadia Choucair, 33, reportedly received letters ordering them to stop their campaign for improved safety.
Both women were fighting the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation for building improvements, with help from the Radical Housing Network, The Mirror reports.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:26 pm

seeingclearly wrote:We are still left dripping with whitewash though and nothing changed. Why isn't the topic of discussion the legality or otherwise of a government held together with chewing gum and a possibly illegal agreement? That will if neccessary be bought with loads of money and concessions.

Years ago I recognised the road we were on. Partly because if you have seen it once you recognise it. But there are always times we can change direction. If we are indeed the democracy we believe ourselves to be. A mandate delivered by decieving the populace hardly seems a democratic mandate to me. We have me hanisms to prevent this. We should use them. It is not enough just to say people aren't buying it. Invoke the safeguards, such as are left, otherwise things are undoubtedly going to get worse. Nothing right now seems normal. Even though it is a wonderful summer day.

Hot summer's days are often a feature of public disorder and Revolution.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:31 pm

seeingclearly wrote:It is not enough just to say people aren't buying it. Invoke the safeguards, such as are left, otherwise things are undoubtedly going to get worse. Nothing right now seems normal. Even though it is a wonderful summer day.

Sure, we need to keep up the pressure throughout the (hopefully short) life of this parliament. Even if things are moving our way, nothing can be taken for granted.

But if ever there was a time for (cautious, rationally based) optimism, its surely now?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:36 pm

@seeingclearly re categorisation well we were "poor""sitting at home doing nothings" at the same as saintly "drivers of the long term economic plan" and now generational thieves from our own generation according to some for the crime of happening to be homeowners and saving the State vast amounts by judicious use of social care ,by not paying enough towards it.All,should be more careful of generalised patronisation/stereotypical nonsense regardless imho.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:46 pm

I have cautious optimism,as far as personal rationalism goes...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:50 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ll-victims" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Revealed: the tower block fire warnings that ministers ignored

...former chief fire officer Ronnie King – who is secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on fire safety – said urgent requests for meetings with ministers and action to tighten rules were stonewalled. He said that requests for meetings with former housing minister Gavin Barwell, now Theresa May’s chief of staff, were turned down.

King said: “...the replies were to the effect that you have met my predecessor [the previous Tory housing minister James Wharton] and there were a number of matters that we are looking at and we are still looking at it. They seem to need a disaster to change regulations, rather than evidence and experience. They always seem to need a significant loss of life before things are changed.”

Fire chief tells of repeated rebuffs by ministers as Theresa May admits Grenfell victims were let down

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:50 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 1:00 pm

Andrea Leadsom totally struggles.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 1:01 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Ok He deserves to be finished and n all probability is because he is a fool.
He tweeted something slightly excitable, FFS.

The sheer pearl-clutching pretence of certain people in pretending he had wanted to burn people rather than an abstract thing was genuinely cringeworthy.

Besides, I thought you might have approved of his A50 stance at least?

I have no time for any of the Corbyn crowd. Lewis' opportunism and lack of judgement just makes him stand out.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 1:06 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:It is not enough just to say people aren't buying it. Invoke the safeguards, such as are left, otherwise things are undoubtedly going to get worse. Nothing right now seems normal. Even though it is a wonderful summer day.
Sure, we need to keep up the pressure throughout the (hopefully short) life of this parliament. Even if things are moving our way, nothing can be taken for granted.

But if ever there was a time for (cautious, rationally based) optimism, its surely now?

The last is only possible if you're a party partisan. Labour as currently led is miles away from the sensible steps on Brexit and the economy that are needed. Yes, the Tories are even further away, but this isn't Miliband etc who are close to office. It is the like of McDonnell, Long-Bailey, Abbott and Burgon. Milne, Murray, Lansmann and Fisher will have more say than the dull soft left of Labour.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 2:10 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:It is not enough just to say people aren't buying it. Invoke the safeguards, such as are left, otherwise things are undoubtedly going to get worse. Nothing right now seems normal. Even though it is a wonderful summer day.
Sure, we need to keep up the pressure throughout the (hopefully short) life of this parliament. Even if things are moving our way, nothing can be taken for granted.

But if ever there was a time for (cautious, rationally based) optimism, its surely now?
The last is only possible if you're a party partisan. Labour as currently led is miles away from the sensible steps on Brexit and the economy that are needed. Yes, the Tories are even further away, but this isn't Miliband etc who are close to office. It is the like of McDonnell, Long-Bailey, Abbott and Burgon. Milne, Murray, Lansmann and Fisher will have more say than the dull soft left of Labour.

Yep, it's fucking great. No more of the triangulation, focus group, self-righteous, yet utterly discredited, blairite wankfests starting illegal wars and selling off our assets whilst making sure they get the big bucks after snouting in the parliamentary trough like the corrupt little piggies they are. The fact that the people you want are further than ever from power is something that is to be celebrated.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 2:13 pm

https://www.unison.org.uk/news/press-re ... ys-unison/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 2:19 pm

https://www.unison.org.uk/news/article/2017/06/lg-cuts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 2:31 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 95556.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eurosceptics will scrutinise the Queen’s Speech for any suggestion Ms May is heeding calls from business leaders and people within her own party to strike a deal with the EU that still means the UK has access to the single market – which would almost certainly mean freedom of movement is retained and that Britain would have to abide by European court rulings.

ie: Tory Eurosceptics don't give a flying **** what any other part of the electorate wants

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 2:32 pm

The UK has been held hostage by the Eurosceptics of the Tory party long enough. How do we make it end?
#proportionalrepresentation

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 2:58 pm

Being of smaller proportions,of course,I disagree.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 3:00 pm

Unless of course it is inverse related then I agree.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 3:02 pm

HindleA wrote:I have cautious optimism,as far as personal rationalism goes...

Apologies here as well. I had cautious optimism, as far as personal rationalisation went. I am finding this ever harder.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 3:04 pm

Perfectly rational to deem myself irrational which complicates matters

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 3:10 pm

I actually think the Tory Europe problem - at least in party terms - is about to go very sour.
The remainers/cameroons won't let her go for hard brexit, the crazies won't let her stay in the Single Market + Customs Union.

The DUP wont support her is she takes the crazies stance, the crazies will topple her if she seems to weaken. She has a very slender majority with the DUP - If she goes hard, Ken Clarke (who really has nothing to lose) Anna Soubry et al, will bring her down + she wont get DUP support. If she goes soft, the crazies will bring her down.

I wouldn't bet any money on the Queen's Speech getting passed. There's going to be another election this year. Sadly, Corbyn won't get his own QS through so it's back to the polls by November. Maybe sooner if stuff comes out over Grenfell.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 3:13 pm

HindleA wrote:Perfectly rational to deem myself irrational which complicates matters

Have you tried Vaping? I know we have similar levels of nicotine addiction, and wondered. My chest is frighteningly better than it was.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 3:34 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.unison.org.uk/news/press-re ... ys-unison/

I spent nearly 4 weeks in one such, I say nearly because I could have stayed longer but discharged myself voluntarily preferring to take chances in unsuitable rather unkempt home, but at least it is home, and carers have time to engage, albeit rushed of their underpaid feet.

Materially not better provided for, but what is the use of showers etc. if no one will shower you, or even the expectation of clean hair if you are sick as a dog because a useless token NHS reject puts your persistent inability to take nutrition or even retain it down to medication side effects when what you actually have is a care home induced infection your cell mates also have. I forget the bugs name but it is persistent and very dangerous, lucky me I had never encountered it before. It is a major killer in care homes. Cells they are is you cannot get out of them, and even the bed had not been changed on admittance, the wrinkles and indent on pillows evident. For this luxury I was told the funding authority was paying £250 a night. I cannot verify. But just one night of that rate enough to put my house to right, more or less, make it just about habitable again, though unsuitable till today, no sign of anything more suitable in the offing, and adaptations deemed a waste because of unsuitability. But at this end of life my days can be wasted for what seems to me immense expense, and grand folly, as independence is possible more or less, sometimes think they prefer us repressed, suppressed, rather than independently thinking, because somewhere someone else profits, multiply this many times and the folly is apparent, otherwise people think, well thats anecdotal. But you have to multiply it many times to see the collossal waste. The utter madness. I was by no means the only one trapped in this conundrum, luckily I was loved, and when neglect and some mental cruelty also became a factor was able to escape to normailty, if you can call it that when mostly in one room for lack of basic housing need, and a nation so twisted by unreality that pensions are now deemed benefits for all who undergo a credit rating and insurance check.

If it is this bad now, in five, ten, what is the tory endpoint for us all, younger ones included. I had the practical support to get away. Not everyone does.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 3:34 pm

@Tem No to be honest, though,like you,a few people have recommended it.Having a network of free tobacco delivery scuppers the financial argument,if anything the health one will,though,of course addiction being what it is I convince myself I actually enjoy the side effects and another barrier traversed (self inflicted)when competing with a one legged horse going backwards in running(crawling) events.Thanks for suggestion and information.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 4:09 pm

@seeing clearly as an ex worker in such establishments,i see it from both sides,sometimes we in effect rescued people from horrenduous home situations,we did endeavour to make it as personalised and homely as possible,jargon but hopefully you get what I mean.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 4:09 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:The UK has been held hostage by the Eurosceptics of the Tory party long enough. How do we make it end?
#proportionalrepresentation

Tc2 , having lived and been educated somewhere where the ins and outs of various systems were hammered (gently) into us as teenagers, till we understood and could discuss them in an informed way with many examples of various real life situations, though of course not todays circumstances ( but haven't seen any advances on the basics except for technology and institutional insanity ) I would normally have agreed with you. But the great British failure to understand its own system or engage with it by such a large amount of people has me doubtful whether the complexities would be understood, when even binary choices are made for the most bizarre reasons. Half of them at least never got to grips with the awful AV and only rejected it on that basis. Any hope they might understand the nuances of which form of PR might be right, especially if given the referendum treatment, could badly backfire. Take the choice out of it and assert a good system of PR might fare better, especially with much public education, but who would do that? Who could? Realistically? Perhaps Tem or someone else might have ideas.

Right now we are like an unwinable, unplayable chess game. No choices left. Theres a name for that. But usually means game over. But it isn't chess. (Though the board could always be set for another game.) Not so neat when its a fairly big nation.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jun, 2017 4:16 pm

Still have preference for a (subject to my definition and application)benign dictator arrangement,as long as it is me.